Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> We have one shot at this change before the monthly and we wanted to err on the side of nerfing too hard instead of risking not actually fixing the problem.

Fair enough. I can respect that. Let's see how it pans out then.

Make all their moves that grant them blocks grant barrier instead.

Make their barrier degen at a custom rate, slower than normal.

((Its probably a horrible idea, but I like how it sounds. If there's a part in there that works feel free to mangle it into something better.))

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> We have two changes prepared for staff thief that we're attempting to get into a hotfix. Those changes being fixing the jump bug with staff 3, and increasing the initiative cost of staff 3 from 4 to 6. Due to the time constraint and general risk of pushing changes like this we're keeping it small and simple, but we're going to evaluate the results and consider additional changes for the next regular balance update.

6 init is too much, just putting that out there. The jump bug fix _alone_ is good, but consider 5 for staff 3 if you absolutely __must__ bump it up, otherwise nobody is going to bother even using it over vault. If it costs as much as vault in PVP, people will always use Staff 5 instead because cripple < raw damage. Removing immob is covered by several other skills.

If you want to make it cost the same as vault, consider making the evade a bit longer in duration..

Also thanks for the transparency. That's a significant portion of what we need.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > It's why a wonder, why would a dev ask for subjective feedback instead of forming more non biased opinions through metrics,statistics, and knowledge of how the classes work.

> > > > > Because metrics can't tell you whether it's fun to play.

> > > > >

> > > > > Players are very good at identifying what frustrates them. They're not as good at identifying why and even less so at fixing it. But the devs first need to know what isn't fun so they can figure out where to start looking for changes.

> > > >

> > > > ........" Metrics, statistics, and **knowledge of how the classes work.**"

> > > > Fun is subjective, and by asking players to identify what they like and dont you are creating an outlook that is mostly biased.

> > > This is only true until a certain majority of people say that something is or is not fun at which point it starts to become less subjective and more factual. Fun is a part of the game. Some people play for fun for some people fun is winning or having a well fought match win or lose. Fun is indeed subjective and it can be a driving force of what keeps people playing the game.

> >

> > I stand by what I said then. Since you also acknowledge "fun" being subjective. That you can't use that feedback then as a starting point in balancing talks .

> > > > That's not how you achieve balance, and I covered most of that in the first post I made in this thread.

> > > Its not always how you achieve balance but some times its a good place to start. If some one says something is not fun and some one say something is super fun which do you believe? If a majority of people who main many different professions also start to say similar things do you think all of them are just subjective or does it mean that something is clearly an issue. Do you think that a large number of people would make false accusations on the subject of how fun something is? I would say its its very unlikely.

> > >

> > > Simply saying its subjective so your statement does not apply to the input of something is not a good way of really looking at it.

> > > What happens if someone says you telling someone something is subjective is also subjective should we just void out your statement too?

> > >

> > > As i told some one else its half and half

> > > When possible metrics and statistics should be part of it but the other half should consist of client feedback data. Thats why businesses and companies often ask you how a service was to you.

> > > Say you order a package.

> > > Looking at metrics data tells the sender that the box got from point A to B.

> > > It might say how fast it got there and which route it took.

> > >

> > > But it does not tell them in the condition of how the box was when it got there or how pleased you were with how fast it got there. Maybe it got there at a bad time leaving your product to sit out all day exposed or maybe it got there quick but not quick enough to your liking.

> > >

> > > Subjective feedback is rather important one cannot simply dismiss it as it is a part of balance.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > And once again, I covered this in my first post, people seem to gloss over the bolded part of "Knowledge of how the game works"....Or from my first post in this thread

> > "Devs should have an intimate understanding of what EVERY class is capable of.

> > When I say intimate, I mean like this class shows up in your dreams intimate.

> > Too often we have seen knee jerk fixes or changes to a class that don't make sense to the people playing, and sometimes these changes are contradictory to the way the class functions or even what the balancing "idea" for that patch tried to achieve.

> > The Devs first and foremost need to play this game, and understand it to the level that people who have been playing since launch do."

> >

> > If you are relying on players to identify, **WITHOUT BIAS** the things that make a class over-perform you have set the ground for failure. Plain and simple. Even in this thread, you have evidence of that. No one want's to be nerfed further and everyone is pointing fingers at everything BUT what they have.

> > This is why I said those 3 things are needed.

> > Too many times player X throws out hyperbole to get player Y's class nerfed.

> > It always goes like this " Bob plays a class (We'll call it class X) and wants to feel powerful, and be powerful, but bob gets killed by Tim on class Y. Bob could either, go into the game and make class Y and figure out what the strengths and weaknesses are, OR, he could complain about the class. Clearly Bob is a pro and class Y is just broken. So he makes a thread ( OR post in a thread with a dev asking what's fun or not) and decides to complain about everything he doesn't like. Citing that other people don't like it either. For added effect, Bob wiki's every skill and throws them all in, complaining about every effect Class Y has , then going through all the traits and doing the same. Bob creates a franken build that realistically CAN NOT EXIST. Then to put the final touches he creates scenarios in which no class could actually perform. Bob writes this as fact, and everyone that plays class X like bob agree's. This franken build to them exist in reality, and it does exactly what bob says.

> > Tim and the other people playing class Y try and tell bob what actually happened but then it devolves into a shouting match where insults like " you main the class so you don't get a say" come in.

> >

> > This entire scenario, if we just stuck with player feedback. Would end up ( and has ended up) with a class being stripped of multiple tools it needs to function at a competitive level across multiple builds. It generates dead builds because they have been cried about repeatedly.

> >

> > This can not continue, and is unhealthy.

> > The Devs MUST know how to pull apart fiction from fact.

> > The devs need to play this game first, **The devs must understand this system and game first**, the devs need have to have every statistic, and metric first, before gathering feedback where players can't even be bothered to complain about specific aspects of a class and create these out of reality things and then complain about it.

> >

> > Edit: ALSO if they devs understood how this game worked, how classes worked, and how they fit in the grand picture of this game. We wouldn't have things like Launch day scourge, deadeye, mirage, spellbreaker, holosmith, weaver, renegade, etc. This is more than a numbers game, I acknowledge that. But changes like these tell me that in a grand picture for balance their was little or no vision. That needs to change like yesteryear.

>

> I could have not said it better...it's time to stop nerfing things based on forum outcry and use instead actual metrics like :

>

> -Percentage of players using a certain build/set up

> -Representation in high tiered pvp matches and wvw gameplay

>

> To nerf something because "Bob" comes to the forum and complain about what killed him....**it's not valid feedback**

Id like to point out that balancing based on metrics alone is what got us to where we were at the beginning of PoF.

While Bob's complaint on its own is probably not all that useful, it may shine a light on an oversight metrics can't find or adequately describe.

You need feedback, metrics, and developer testing, all in equal measure, if this balance is going to be stable.

[edited out as it is not constructive.]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> The point is to show how _fundamentally wrong_ dodging while stunned is in that it will take an exchange of blows where there should without a doubt be a person with a _clear advantage_ and a _clear disadvantage_ because of how the exchange played out and effectively _nullify_ all of that and put them on more or less equal footing. That's fundamentally bad competitive design.

This is literally all I wanted to get across in all of my screaming off and on regarding this spec on these forums, and I will gladly give up Rampage/Staff/Staff/holosustain/ anything just as vile in terms of skewing rotational dominance if it meant this got addressed.

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> ........" Metrics, statistics, and **knowledge of how the classes work.**"

> Fun is subjective, and by asking players to identify what they like and dont you are creating an outlook that is mostly biased.

> That's not how you achieve balance, and I covered most of that in the first post I made in this thread.

While I have used this arguing point in the past, this is correct. People will always consider what counters their particular build unfun. I think a more refined approach to it is to aim to balance so that, when people fight any opponent whether 1v1 or in a team setting, their matchup outcome is heavily weighted on strategic choice and smart play moreso than straight up class, weapon range, or damage type advantage.

The former is, essentially, what the intent for class design was for GW2. It appears to have been misconstrued as class or skill omnipotence though, whether by design or by oversight. Those two balancing ideals have a subtle difference that lead to two very different play experiences across the board.

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> @"Cal Cohen.3527" If you really serious about improving this game my recommendation would be as follow:

>TEST out the actual Spec in question

This is important.

> @"Meiko Isamura.6352" said:

> Tone down Warrior's Cunning a lot - 50% damage increase vs barrier is too much, was amazed this wasn't split for game modes when released.

> Reduce deadeye ranged damage from stealth.

> Tone down warrior rampage elite a bit.

> Decrease staff thief's ability to survive/evade constantly.

> Tone down condi mirage and condi DD.

> Thanks!

These are the hot button issues right now, plus holosmith and Firebrand.

> @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> It's truly rich.

> warriors, mesmers, thieves, engineers and guardians all pointing fingers at one another.

> "You're the one playing the anti-fun spec, not me!"

> When in reality, everything - on top of some fundamental changes - needs nerfs.

This. Let's face it. If you're complaining about mirage cloak, but you dont see a problem with, say, rampage, you're not fully addressing the problem.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Because the devs are not as intimate with all the quirks, and if they were to play even an average group of pvp'ers minus cmc, they would get wrecked.

Also this. The devs make the game for a living. They dont necessarily have to play it in the PvP Sphere, getting bombarded over and over by some new build that got introduced that makes a class stronger than it should be.. We as players may not be able to understand completely what is leading to what is broken, or what is broken to people who dont play a class in a particular situation, but feedback can shed a light on what is overtuned as long as it is curated properly.

Well, that and getting a group of knowledgeable players together to try out new patch changes before they go live.

> @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> inb4 staff thief wins monthly owait it did LOL, inb4 staff thief is meta owait it is LOL, dont forget in-houses deciding if staff thief is allowed or not XD.

> So, are we an inclusive set of devs who treat all degenerate gameplay and builds the same? Yes / No?

That's insane, but if there's data there's data. gonna probably need to shave endurance gen on staff or put an ICD on it.

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> We can quibble about semantics like "good build versus degenerate build", "viable versus meta", etc. But at the end of the day, does anyone want *any* build that is effectively perma-evades running around in *any* competitive mode? Think about it.

This. perma-sustain that allows you to contest a point is bad for the game period. We were here with turret engies, bunker ventari revenants, etc. No matter your class you shouldnt have any combination of buttons that unconditionally removes counterplay/your need to react to and avoid your opponents key skills for any extended amount of time, especially if it lets you contest while you do it.

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> The balance split makes me worried a bit. So now PvE team designs the specs and PvP only does number tweaks on them? Not a good outlook for PvP players as their specs could be redesigned around another gamemode on a whim.

Iii think it actually means the opposite.

I read that as not only number tweaks, but functionality tweaks as well. Skills may be designed by PVE content creators, but competitively may have different functions that make counterplay possible for non AI opponents. The PVP and WVW teams can now balance the skills to fit their respective game modes, whereas before mechanics of the skills could not differ from one gamemode to another.

I could _definitely_ be wrong, though. That could use some clarification.

Thoughts?

> @"Rubi Bayer.8493" said:

> Balance is important to the entire game. In the past, we’ve split skill changes between the three core game modes: PvP, PvE, and WvW. Previously, skills designers oversaw all balance changes with sign-off from designers working on competitive content. PvE balance will remain in the hands of skills designers, but PvP and WvW balance will now be handled by competitive designers. This will give our competitive-focused team members a bit more control over how players interact with their content, and it will allow the skills designers to focus on PvE balance and other Systems work.

Sounds good on paper. I will need to see it in practice. Skill splitting being limited to numerical values and maintaining mechanical functionality across the board has indeed led to some very frustrating matchups. As long as this is handled cautiously, in conjunction with the feedback threads pre-patch that have started happening before any major balance issues, It might be extremely beneficial.

>Let’s welcome Cal “cmc” Cohen as the new Systems Team competitive designer. Some of you know him from his work on competitive content in QA, or even as a competitive PvP player. Cal has displayed great aptitude for competitive balance and systems, making him a great new addition to the overall team.

>Ben Phongluangtham will transition to a new role as Design Manager for Guild Wars 2. We’ll always think of him as part of our team, but we look forward to seeing his continued success in his new role!

Ben, you have been extremely helpful in shedding some light on pvp behaviors, especially regarding MMR. Keep up the good work.

__Welcome to the shark tank, Cal. (Again? In another capacity?)__

>Balance changes for the different game modes are a type of content we feel comfortable discussing with the community before release. As a team, we want to increase our presence on the forums and be more open about upcoming changes to get feedback early. In the future, we’ll also begin calling out specific times when some of us will be present on the forums to collect feedback through targeted threads. Ultimately, we want to be more open and available to the community, and we ask that, in return, you help provide constructive feedback and respectful discussion.

Okay, but, again, this will need to be seen in practice. It sounds excellent on paper. It is my hope that, if the devs make themselves available through the forums often enough for this to impact balance changes significantly, pvp players keep a lid on the sardonic buildup -at least for that thread- so issues can be voiced and debated without the threads getting locked.

I take this with a grain of salt, admittedly. I've heard several announced plans of this nature before. Here's hoping it works out~

I am of the opinion that condition renegade is lowkey OP but people are so hung up on its clunkiness that nobody ever gave it a fair shot.

People are looking at condi rev now that they got slapped by a mallyx jalis rev, but they dont seem to understand that the same kind of stability, condi pumping rotation that applies to jalis/mallyx can also apply through range to mallyx/KAlla.

I'm glad to see so many people being helpful.

As for situations that help you improve, there are a few:

Spectate the FFA Arena. Take note of people in the arena, what classes they play, their respective ranks, and animation strings they use. Take note of strings that are effective and which ones lead to the user getting wiped, and if you have one of those classes, go try the strings out and find out why they work/dont work.

Turn on your combat log and play in the FFA arena. when you lose to a particular matchup, see what did the most damage to you and try to figure out why that happened. take note of any conditions that may have helped this damage take place.

Have a cursory knowledge of what meta builds people play. Metabattle has a breakdown of the widely-agreed-upon builds, how they work, why they work, and often how you can counter them. try them out and see what they feel like, then fight them and see what you need to react or respond to to not die.

Join a custom arena that does 1v1 matches/sparring. Fight some players. Ask about what skills they are using, or spectate the arena and examine the builds and stat combinations they are using. Everyone in a custom arena has their build exposed while they are in the arena.

Play unranked, as you are. keep track of the timestamps when map events happen, pay attention to how people move on the map, and try to figure out where your class of choice would be best suited in your matchup.

Watch videos about pvp conquest, especially ones that give play by plays and explain when objectives are important, and when they are not, and why. (especially beasts in forest.)

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> I wish we could get a Hall of Shame with all account names ever got punished for wintrading in PvP can be seen...

That would just encourage people who seek any attention, even negative attention, to wintrade specifically to make it to the hall of shame.

Best punishment is removal, no fanfare.

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> That moment when devs find the PvPer in the back of the room.

Trust us, we'd rather be punching each other back here but it's really hard to do so when situations like this exist.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > I feel like people _massively_ underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

> >

> > I ...honestly forgot PVE was a thing and I am absolutely mortified.

> >

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" Apologies. This is obviously not as cut and dry as I'd hoped. In PvE, particularly raids, I can see how that would be crippling.

> >

> > in PVP, though, it remains an egregious issue when paired with condi. I understand your point, but PvP engagements shouldnt have to suffer like that for PVE to be balanced.

> >

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > keep in mind that mirage lacks stun removal tools of other classes, war has 2 stunremoves on top of CC immunity in rampage, mesmer has 1 and no stability. mirage cloak somewhatcovers it along with disortion.

> >

> > Mesmers have several utilities that can break stuns, and one that grants specifically stability. They just dont take them because mirage cloak, mirage mirrors, and distortion remove the need to slot utilities defensively, with the exception of blink.

> >

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > people overestimate how good this dodgewhilestuned is, most meta builds have CC like war that lasts 2-3s or longer, cant even cover 1/3 of it with a dodge, its more of a I take slightly less damage during stun, dont forget that it is a trade off in itself, when you dodge during stun, you cant unleas an ambush attack so you lose at it.

> >

> > Not being able to attack while stunned, even though it uses endurance, isn't a tradeoff for being able to evade while stunned. That argument isn't real. No class can attack while stunned. not having access to an attack because you got cced isn't a drawback particular to any class.

> >

> > > Mirage HAS to take IH, moving dodge while stuned to EM is like removing it compleatly, nobody in their right mid will take for anything other then trolling.

> >

> > Dont agree with you, regarding pvp. If EM allows you to dodge and break stuns in exchange for damage, that opens up builds for sidenode stalling. If IH doesnt allow dodges while stunned, mirages have to slot utilities more defensively or predict attacks to do heavy damage.

> >

> > This may have implications in pve, but pvp as it stands right now is kittened because condi oriented mirages running IH have very little counterplay.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> you dont get what I mean, mirage cloak is both defensive AND offensive tool. If you use it while stunnes, you give up offensive part ( ambush )

> srsl you remind me of that video Happy something posted, called mirage cancer, while playing warrior, throwing rock that deals 11,1k dmg.

> while dueling this "cancer mirage" he could afford to afk while being whittled down for 13 sec. didnt die, didnt even take any damage. becouse guess what, condi damage sucks.

I really want to just be misunderstanding the plight of mirage mains, but the matchups I've seen and experienced wouldn't exactly be considered a plight to me.

> Shake it off covers both CC removeal AND condi cleanse.

> mesmer has to take 2 utilities to do the same thing.

It became that way -because- of mirage. It wasn't like that before.

Look, I'm pretty tired about yelling into the void about how this is unbalanced. Clearly it will take some careful consideration to fix even if you assume it is such. Tell you what though; add me if you're in NA, lets do a mock fight and then argue further about what is broken and what isn't on the actual game.

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> I feel like people _massively_ underestimate how big a drawback not moving when you dodge actually is. It probably doesn't seem like one in PVP, but in PVE where basically everything throws AOE fields at you all the time it's a huge issue.

I ...honestly forgot PVE was a thing and I am absolutely mortified.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" Apologies. This is obviously not as cut and dry as I'd hoped. In PvE, particularly raids, I can see how that would be crippling.

in PVP, though, it remains an egregious issue when paired with condi. I understand your point, but PvP engagements shouldnt have to suffer like that for PVE to be balanced.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> keep in mind that mirage lacks stun removal tools of other classes, war has 2 stunremoves on top of CC immunity in rampage, mesmer has 1 and no stability. mirage cloak somewhatcovers it along with disortion.

Mesmers have several utilities that can break stuns, and one that grants specifically stability. They just dont take them because mirage cloak, mirage mirrors, and distortion remove the need to slot utilities defensively, with the exception of blink.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> people overestimate how good this dodgewhilestuned is, most meta builds have CC like war that lasts 2-3s or longer, cant even cover 1/3 of it with a dodge, its more of a I take slightly less damage during stun, dont forget that it is a trade off in itself, when you dodge during stun, you cant unleas an ambush attack so you lose at it.

Not being able to attack while stunned, even though it uses endurance, isn't a tradeoff for being able to evade while stunned. That argument isn't real. No class can attack while stunned. not having access to an attack because you got cced isn't a drawback particular to any class.

> Mirage HAS to take IH, moving dodge while stuned to EM is like removing it compleatly, nobody in their right mid will take for anything other then trolling.

Dont agree with you, regarding pvp. If EM allows you to dodge and break stuns in exchange for damage, that opens up builds for sidenode stalling. They may not be able to kill certain builds, but they also wont be able to die from being pinned down. If IH doesnt allow dodges while stunned, mirages have to slot utilities more defensively or predict attacks to do heavy damage. the damage afforded by IH in its current state should not come with no penalty to an opponent managing to nail you with a cc in the midst of all of the target dropping, while dots are ticking on them.

This may have implications in pve, but pvp as it stands right now is kittened because condi oriented mirages running IH have very little counterplay.

I'm going to stop responding to this line because I keep taking Daniel's thread off course and he has a point regarding pve implications, and I am still considering what can be done to chrono that wont make them nightmarish to MU competitively.

Generally agree with OP. Glad to see that objectively, a lot of balancing issues got addressed across the competitive scene.

Also **I TOLD yall about condi rev-** , don't sleep on Renegade either.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> If people kept on topic to chrono having terrible quality of life and they need a better tradeoff that is still trade off but doesn't make people miserable that would be great.

I'm fine with this, but just for closure:

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> Compare the effect of chill on a mirage to chrono or core and you'll find its not just a different dodge animation. Your argument is no different than people who want Daredevil to only have two bars of endurance. I don't think you are considering different game modes. And that is what got us in this mess to begin with.

I'm aware of its interaction with chill. The point I am trying to make, however, is that even that interaction is vastly outweighed by the return in damage and sustainability on condition-oriented builds. I don't understand your assertion that it is no different from people requesting Daredevil have an endurance nerf, if you can explain what you meant by that I'd appreciate it.

If you were implying that I thought Mirage cloak as it stands should be gutted, that is not my opinion. I just think its functionality of "you can dodge while stunned" should be moved to Elusive Mind (and the exhaustion from EM removed or shaved down significantly) to force mirage players to choose between having all of the condi dot damage given by IH also a more brittle stun reaction behavior, and having that transcendent priority dodge in exchange for a damage loss.

And you're right. I only care about PVP, and to a smaller extent WvW, so I am focused on how class interactions with mirage should be balanced. of course, if a solution can be reached with a skill split, fair enough.

feel free to reply to this or not. The topic is about Chrono ofc.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> When you argued mirage and soulbeast are pure gain you kinda set the tone of what is fake or not. By that standard Scrapper doesn't have a tradeoff because the benefit replaces its own deficit.

And its toolbelt being replaced by function gyro. Let's not forget that.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> REAPER -> Ghastly claws 8s cd, hits for 5-10k

> Spinal shivers 20s cd, hits for 5-8k

> executioners scythe -> record hit i recived was 19,2k, I would say the average is about 10k? against mesmer at least.

> I am not saying reaper stays at range and booms people, but standing behind wall, peaking for 1/4s to deal 5-10k dmg is a thing they do.

I will note your last comment. I'm not going to argue about the damage factors of Ghastly, spinal and Exec Scythe because those skills have incredibly long cast times and telegraphs. They can be easily interrupted or avoided and the fact that they do high damage if they complete over their 1-1.25 second cast times doesnt offset:

*The reaper is close range.

*The reaper is **vulnerable to cc**.

The reaper standing behind a wall to make sure those attacks hit are cleverly compensating for that drawback by using the terrain, which is skillful. I have no issue with that.

> BERSERKER

> head butt.

Same for this. 400 range and high visibility.

I'm not going to argue about the damage factors of Headbutt because the skill has an incredibly long cast time and telegraph. It can be easily interrupted or avoided and the fact that it does high damage if it connects doesnt offset the added fragility in berserk mode or the fact that its bursts still count as level 1 internally.

And if it doesnt connect the warrior has no adrenaline and wont have an elite for 25 seconds.

> SCRAPPER

> its not about playing passively, its about the fact that the only time its a tradeoff, is when scraper is 1shot/bursted down from full HP. I bet it doesnt feel good does it ?

> think about how much hp you lose due to that vitality, and then think how much damage you need to deal to gain it as barrier. and consider how hard/easy it is to do.

> if you can throw 1 aoe into the bunch of clones and get 5k barrier then its not much of a tradeoff is it ?

If the barrier gain or vitality deficit needs to be adjusted, fine; but I am not agreeing that the situation of throwing an AOE into a bunch of clones and getting 5k barrier immediately is not its gain surpassing its deficit. That is a unique interaction with mesmer and classes that spawn lots of adds.

Also as above keep in mind their toolbelt is also hard replaced.

> SPB

> you get extra sustain.

> core warrior uses all bars to use burst skill. spb can sit on 2, use arcing slice -> fullcounter -> gain adrenaline passively from traits -> arcing slice ( recharged from FC ).

> core cant do that. core doesnt recharge bursts and core doesnt get to have 2 of them on one weapon set. if as SPB you use that trait tht gives adrenaline and resistance, i had games where i legit dager f1 -> FC -> dagger f1 -> shield 4 -> gs f1.

> burst burst burst, stun, burst.

You have to hit full counter for that chain to work.

There are drawbacks to each of those classes that lead them to underperform in specific avenues in exchange for performing well if specific, high telegraphed skills hit or certain conditions are met. Chrono isn't the only one being held to that standard. Whether you want to argue whether that is more, or less than it should is up to you.

Some classes are __still__ overperforming, though, especially Condition Mirage, since in exchange for a different dodge animation they get more damage output, less damage vulnerability, The ability to evade whenever they want as long as they have endurance, and target shuffling on top of their access to their core utilities. Before the patch that made mirage cloak last as long as a regular dodge animation, mirage cloak actually lasted **longer**. It was even more of a direct upgrade than it is now.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.

I am in agreement with this. I would go so far as to say that altering playstyle means, Ideally, that the user is benefited in exchange for exposing exploitable weaknesses and managing to cover them with their own play, rather than traits or synergies covering that weakness on their own.

There are a few classes that need to be held to that razor yet. some more than once. I am in no way claiming that spellbreaker, firebrand, holo are as yet balanced. I am just concerned when classes that should be balanced -do- get balanced, and people suddenly appear to think that only their main is prey to the error of the balancing team ad infinitum.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> -Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake? -> becouse reper **lands CONSISTANTLY 5-15k dmg hits from long range?** while 5k being on the REALLY low end, on TOP of having turbo damage in melee.

? Spinal shivers? deaths charge? Grasping darkness? What are you talking about? Spinal doesnt hit you for 5-15k, and deaths charge isnt long range. Grasping darkness is incredibly telegraphed and doesnt hit for that range either.

The turbo damage in melee doesnt really negate the drawback. The necro has to go through a whole lot of effort to get you in melee range to begin with. If you remain there you deserve turbo Reaper 4 tbh.

> -Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake? -> and **gains LOW cooldown nuke** that conviniently gives 3 bars of adrenaline. and thus compleatly removing the drawback.

? Signet of fury? blood reckoning? those arent low cooldown and one of those a heal. why does that remove the drawback?

> -Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst. losing lvl 2 and 3 burs is advantage, to triger burst themself more often to get extra healing and endurance, expecially since arcing slice and dagger jump dont scale with adrinaline level very well.

? see below for my response to that.

> -vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake? -> this is plain wrong, scraper loses max hp, and in return they gain sustain throught damage.

? **That is what I said.** You cant play passively as scrapper anymore if you want to live. Its the opposite of, say, condi mirage.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> what spb gets.

> **better burst skill sustain due to 1 adrenalinbarusage**, with most abilities being good enought on 1 bar ( arcing, dagger dash ) ( damage,utility,boonremova,healing,damage)

> you have VERY shortsighted way of balancing, it doesnt matter what you get from what. end result is what matters.

Better burst sustain? The CD didnt change for bursts. They're just forced to use it at level 1 now, with the reduced damage and the reduced impact on their traits. **Warriors can burst at level 1 by default. It just usually isnt worth.**

I dont understand how you can claim someone is shortsighted immediately after suggesting that Spellbreaker burst sustain is somehow better because now they cant charge it higher than level 1 and thus are more compelled to use it at level 1. Nothing got better with that change. The use case just got narrower.

Again, I'm not saying Spellbreaker is in a balanced place right now, and I'm not saying chronomancer isnt underperforming. But I don't understand this series of responses at all. Have you played anything besides mesmer? And, if so, can you elaborate on what long range nuke Reaper has, what low cooldown nuke berserker has, that instantly gives them 3 bars of adrenaline etc?

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

Not wrong.

> - anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)

> > People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay

Also not wrong.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> Ah mesmer hater, havent seen one of those in a while.

> You said every elite spec has a trade off, ? what? chrono is literarly the only elitespec that has this. most of them have "fake" tradeoffs that get fixed by the traits in the tree itself. Like -vitality on scraper that simply gets barier for dealing damage getting back what he "loses"

-vitality on scrapper in exchange for barrier means the scrapper cant camp survival skills if they want to live. why is that fake?

-Beserker has to trait the least powerful grandmaster they have to get their toughness back, and they still have to hit level 3 Adrenaline to burst. Why is that fake?

-Spellbreaker trades level 3 and level 2 bursts for FC. Why is that fake? It affects their traits that scale based on the tier of their burst.

-Daredevil cant 1200 range steal you anymore, which means they have to be closer to you constantly to do damage. Why is that fake?

-Druid loses pet damage for its healing factor. Why is that fake?

-Reaper trades its long range attacks for close range, on a class that is very vulnerable to cc. Why is that fake?

Most of the other classes so far have been given clear balances so there are detriments to playing them. Chrono is not the only class suffering this. Chronomancer and Mirage are close to last to the party regarding this tradeoff approach. You can argue that the tradeoff is too much for Chrono if you want; that is up for debate, but if anything Mesmer and its derivatives have escaped any kind of meaningful balancing that affects their rotational dominance for a very long time.

> and go away with this mesmer never gets nerf kitten literarly every single patch that I have seen had mesmer nerfs in them, meanwhile warrior/guard/holo are utterly broken in pvp and go untouched. guard overperforming as always too, buffs for them i guess.

Firebrand is overperforming. So is condi mirage. So is holosmith. So is spellbreaker, especially with the new tactics rework. Those are problems that need to be fixed. That doesnt mean chronomancer, or mesmer in general, for that matter, should escape the same kind of balancing mindset.

> guess what, spec shouldnt have a tradeoff -.- , tradeoff for taking elite is that you dont have 1 core tree, I took mirage, I dont get to have domination/illusion/chaos or whatever thats the tradeoff.

Every profession has already argued this before, and yet when this was piloted we saw soulbeasts, berserkers, scrappers, firebrands, etc overperforming without that "necessary" third traitline. This arguing point isnt real.

> since you not gonna read what I wrote anyways at the very least give me answear to this

> start with spellbreaker,firebrand and go from there.

Again, Mesmer is late to the party concerning nerfs. Ever since Mirage has been implemented into the game, the condition oriented version of it has been absolutely nightmarish for anything that is not able to stealth or churn out perpetual cleansing (never minding the fact that, while this was happening, mirage mains were trying to call for nerfs to cleanse and consume plasma, the only things that were not being steamrolled by them.)

I understand your frustration with chronomancer, but mesmer mains aren't the only classes suffering, and implying that you are is shortsighted, because Chronobunker was omegabusted just this year and doing so much it was causing video culling issues on its own, Condi Mirage **remains** omegabusted, and as was shown above in the youtube video core Mesmer still can perform very well in pvp.

Some of these classes have core professions that cant even step into PVP without being deleted.

And again, there sure are other problems in PVP. Condi mirage is the most oppressive of those problems right now though.

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> Pro tip ! Theres a key target to use in the option menu called Previous enemy. E.g you have the right mesmer targeted and he stealths,reveals 3 sec later ,you press Previous target and it instantly selects him again even with 10 clones in your face. Can make all the difference in the world,and like others said it's better to mouse click select instead of using tab targeting besides using Previous enemy.

just want to point out that Previous Enemy only works sometimes, and in the event that previous target is not available or your target gets shuffled, it selects a target for you seemingly at random.

> @"Ralkuth.1456" said:

> I’m just concerned that the overall impression ANet is extruding, in my experience, is just the skilful use of “low population” as an excuse to not change anything, instead of addressing it as a problem and actively changing things up to breathe some life back into the mode.

> **People don’t keep coming back for nothing, but they can’t always come back to literally nothing.**

This, 1000%. I **really** want to like this mode. I **really** want to like GW2 for the PVP.

The devs have the right idea with elite specs having tradeoffs, but they need to look at the wide scope of the game, look at how all the classes interact with one another and adjust where classes can overperform in 1v1 and in support scenarios, then look into supporting solo players and team players in the same space.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> It may be that I have challenged thieves for years in WvW and PvP and got used to their main tactics but...I still can't see condi thieves more than annoyance as +1 , **thieves can't actually duel most specs now unless you greatly outplay the opponent**

This, but

> @"Sakorath.8910" said:

> Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?

Also this.

I'm willing to give up condi thief as it is now, if the assertion of dumping out conditions while porting around/being hard to hit being frustrating and unbalanced also applies to condition Mirage and gets it balanced.

I'd just like to point out OP is a dragonhunter.

I understand your frustration, but this situation was reversed until the PoF expansion and still remains weighted in your favor.

Theyre fun for me to fight because I usually engage them with classes or builds that can chase or down them. I can easily see how theyd be annoying for anything slower/less porty than War/Another thief though.

They're relatively easy to play. They're balanced mechanically/sustainwise. They're still annoying. I can understand the anger against them but I wouldn't change them atm.