Azure The Heartless.3261

"Downstate is too casual friendly, it is why the game is not esports"

[in the distance:]

>"HEROES NEVER DIE"

If anything downstate is less forgiving and more intricate than some games that are specifically designed for esports.

> @"Kamsin.8541" said:

> Rampage : _uncontrolled behaviour, especially when this involves damaging or destroying property over a wide area_

>

> Combat log : You critically hit Target for **21**.

>

> (With Berserker's stats, if someone wants to try with Minstrel's stats, I really cannot find the courage to do it.)

As a warrior main lemme just say

**WHEEZE**

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> They should rename it to Tantrum.

I was just thinking that

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> "HERE COMES THE PAIN TRAIN..CHOO CHOO"

> This would be super appropriate

lmfao

nah something minor like prime light beam's

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > So its deadeye but stronger and unblockable, until tactics gets adjusted?

> > >

> >

> > It's a lot easier to focus down than deadeye since it doesn't have high stealth access and numerous ports also kill shot is over double the cast time of death's judgement so much easier to dodge.

>

> Difference is DJ has the most obnoxious tell in the game. Its pretty much impossible to miss that youre being targetted by a DJ, and since you get more than enough time t dodge, also really hard to be hit by it. Kill Shot currently doesnt have a tell at all, so if the Warrior is out of your sightline, you have no way to tell that youre about to be oneshot. Plus I would say its harder to focus down. Deadeye dies if it so much as gets sneezed at, and plenty of classes can keep up with it. Warrior at least has various ways to go invulnerable, or as close to it as possible.

>

> Though ultimately theyre both terrible meme builds. Effectively unplayable, but good for a laugh against unprepared players. That being said, I would give Kill Shot a tell like DJ has.

At the very least, a sound cue.

> @"Rettan.9603" said:

> So Elementalist and Engineer, the two classes that are totally designed around the 'no second weapon set needed' paradigm, get a second weapon set?

> But the Warrior, the class that doesn't work without fast weapon swaps, is still forced to take a whole trait line to be playable?

> This is fine.

They still function as one weapon classes as long as you engage them, This is QoL and lets them make builds that can play vs different engagements instead of having to commit to one rotation type the whole game.

They could do this in pve the whole time.

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> It actually is a very foolish change. Because of attunements / kits, Ele and Engy were the two professions that didn't have a weapon swap. That made sense. >After this change though, they will be the only two professions who cannot swap weapons _in combat_.

>Why? Reasons.

@"Rettan.9603" said:

So Elementalist and Engineer, the two classes that are **totally designed around the 'no second weapon set needed' paradigm**,

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> Anyone new to the game will be asking that question-

- **Starting at level 10**, elementalists can now swap weapons while out of combat, gaining an additional pair of weapon slots on their Hero panel.

- **Starting at level 10,** engineers can now swap weapons while out of combat, gaining an additional pair of weapon slots on their Hero panel.

> @"Fire Attunement.9835" said:

> ... and we're now granting elementalists and engineers the ability to swap weapons _while out of combat_.

I'm reading the rest but __damn thats hot__

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > Blind and weakness will impact the clone attacks. But they will stunbreak to perform the attacks if stunned.

> >

> > Didnt actually know that shouldnt be the case.

> sounds like a design flaw if you ask me.

*Quietly files nails*

That's really funny.

> @"Jagdtiger.2517" said:

> There aren't enough players for matches to be super balanced.

This.

What you're seeing isn't the cause of the imbalance. Its a symptom.

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> Shouldn't we just get rid of all of those?

No.

**Making the game slower won't make it more fun.** If you're having trouble catching or running from X or Y if you build for it, then you need a mobility buff.

Dont nerf every class in the game in an effort to guarantee that a class -NEEDS- to stay in combat if it doesn't want to, because one class can catch you.

Be mindful that in your attempts to suggest balance you don't shoot yourself in the foot. Swiftness removal or nerfing is going to do more than just nerf FB. Itll make matches longer, put baseline slow classes at the mercy of thieves even more than they are , put those same classes at the mercy of ranged dps, and generally set off a new wave of nerfs.

Leave the MSI alone.

I'm catching up with the thread and I would like to mention the following.

1.) No Valid Path and No Line of Sight are different. Ports that use these checks each have different strengths.

2.) Mesmers are, for the most part, more sustainable than Thieves, and I'm assuming that is why thief ports are situationally more useful.

3.) If we are suggesting that blinks be made to work like shadowsteps, I'm fine with that, but Mes sustain needs to be looked at as well to balance their buffed ability to peace-out from any bad situation.

4.) Condi thief continues to be too strong and requires a nerf.

5.) Condi mirage continues to be too strong and requires a nerf.

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> np, I run DPS Axe and yes if within range, can go through walls. Couldnt tell ya how many ppl ive surprised with it.

**Quietly files nails**

That's _really_ funny.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> _Why can [class A] do [thing] that [class B] can't._

> Maybe because that's the whole point of having different classes with different flavours, themes, playstyles.

Balance is not wholly determined by mechanics. It is also determined by how much damage a class can put out, how useful a class is in any frequently occurring scenario, and how many tools that class has to avoid, mitigate, or otherwise negate damage.

Some classes need some skills that need to not obey line of sight. Some classes do not. If you would like to claim that some classes need more or less LoS dependent skills because it makes them unbalanced, do so. Classes are not automatically unbalanced because a specific class is restricted by LoS.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> reaper kitten kitten up when he gets the chance, and gets kitten when you give them a chance, thats why they get focused, if you leave them be they will wipe the floor with oposition, if you hardfocus them they will die rather quickly. Its too often that there is 3v1 against ele or fb and he just survives for 20-30s, meanwhile reaper strolls in, 2s opening boom 15kdmg you died.

There's no counterplay or response avenue to hard focus for reaper. Unless you have the audacity to take flesh wurm and hope it isnt killed before you need it, or that you happen to be in range when you use the flipover. So why take reaper if all you're going to do is be focused and not get to do anything in pvp? FB can wipe point too, and it also has sustain for dealing with focus. Other classes have high mobility avenues or active defenses that negate damage entirely.

You don't have the option to build in such a way that you can survive focus as it currently stands, with whatever drawback that should come with, if any. It needs adjustment.

All they can do is soak damage. And given that their avenue for doing that more effectively depends on people dying near them or being struck, building that life force tends to become an issue when you have to soak everything, especially right out of the gate.

> @"Dea Beyond.5183" said:

> STOP allowing PVP Character Swap after they have started the que and the match is in the 1 min up.

> WHAT you que on , thats what you should play, because **you should love what you play**, and not swap just because you do everything for the win.

I agree with the statement but not the premise.

If people want to play for the win, let them. They should not be allowed to do that by joining queue with a weak pvp class to ensure the other team gets one, then swapping off to steamroll them.

That is a twopronged issue that can be fixed by making every class competitively viable, and not allowing people to swap once they join without being ejected from the match.

Leave how people -should- feel out of it. You'll never get everyone to feel a certain way about this game or its modes.

Other than that, absolutely agree.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > CI used to be only on interrupt what is way harder to do, used to have a 3s cd

> > NO ESCAPE have no cd and proc on daze and stun

> >

> > what is the logic?

> a Warrior, has to actually walk into your face with no expertise to elongate the immob, where you can actually hit him, swing a single attack that has animation time on it which allows it to be counter played, then attempt to follow up with other single use skills that all have animation times that can be counter played, with absolutely no instant cast damage skills to land a sudden death no-tell 1 Shot.

> @"Tharan.9085" said:

> OP doesnt even know how CI works, great. The 3s ICD was only against enemys with breakbar, so only applied to pve

This

> @"huluobo.7036" said:

> I have been using Necromancer,

> I am often attacked by multiple people.

> From the number of times I was beaten, I don’t believe how many people can exceed me.

>

>

> It can be said that there is no property in pvp suitable for life force.

> In the game, players will give priority to attacking Necromancer, this is the fact

> And life force is not designed for multiple goals, right?

> Therefore, life force will not be enough.

> Most of the time life force can only be used to endure damage.

> I recommend canceling the life force in pvp and changing the necromantic skills.

While Necromancer focus is a problem and life force is not enough to endure that, I dont think a full rework of the class will solve more problems than it causes.

This can probably be solved by giving necromancer a mechanic or traitline tweak that turns incoming damage into health or life force like defiant stance, coupled with some life force adjustments across the board.

They are balanced for wvw, where people die left and right. That balance leaves them lacking in pvp, however.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > You shouldnt EXPECT to get a freebe, you got hit, pay the price.

> >

> > Fair point. No arguing that. <3

> > That rationale should also be applied to Mirage cloak.

> >

>

> yes, along with many things.

> most people dont get the sad truth, if there is 10 overpowered things, nerfing half of them only makes things worse :D

That depends on whether the balancing team finishes the job or not, or leaves it half done. Time will tell.

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> Also GS whirl never needed the evade and it’s just survivability power creep and should be removed along with the rest of the games power culling.

No

> @"Lilyanna.9361" said:

> It's a meme build

So was zerker spin2win and it got adjusted. Gonna need to see a template for it since I havent touched rifle in years, but it can easily go the way of DJ and Arc Divider if it needs to.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> You shouldnt EXPECT to get a freebe, you got hit, pay the price.

Fair point. No arguing that. <3

That rationale should also be applied to Mirage cloak.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > It’s true though.

> >

> > Bleed, poison and burn are always consistent damage.

> >

> > Confusion and torment only do full damage if an additional factor/condition is met (skill use and movement respectively).

> >

> > People often complain about confusion and torment having less counterplay but, in fact the opposite is the case. You can cleanse/block/evade/invuln AND you can stow weapons or stand in place. That doesn’t mean the *only* thing you should be doing is stowing weapons. But it does mean you may temporarily stop moving or using skills as part of mitigating the damage you will take.

>

> The way complainers view torment : IF I MOVE I TAKE DOUBLE DAMAGE, PUNISHED FOR MOVING.

> The way I view torment : If i find a way to not move during torment, I will take HALF the damage.

I shouldn't have to point out that standing still, while effective in halving torment damage, allows your opponent to hit you with AoEs or high damage moves to punish you for not moving. It isn't nearly as cut and dry as "stand still dont take damage".

That being said, torment on its own is fine, if you don't also get punished for acting/using skills to facilitate remaining in place.

Confusion on its own is fine, if you dont also get punished for stowing and moving around while it expires.

Both of those together is a problem. being punished for moving and acting at the same time implies the counterplay, at least for a moment, is to behave like a golem. And we have ample evidence of what players can do to golems.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> All of that stuff isn't really broken because it's just not that effective, the effort and co-ordination to get anywhere close to the best possible benefit is unlikely to happen or be possible in a normal game or it has drawbacks that become apparent in a normal fight. Yet all of that is technically true.

> It does no-one any good cherry picking arguments and painting best possible scenarios as if it happens all the time, especially when it's on a golem that doesn't fight back, cleanse or dodge.

A fair assessment, but Staff/ Scepter/Pistol [remains meta.](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mirage_-_CI_But_Without_CI "remains meta. ") For general use, there is significant consensus that the build performs very strongly. The numbers may or may not be correct depending on what claim you pull from, but not every claim of certain synergies requires the stars to align or requires someone to run an otherwise glassy, ineffectual build. We're talking about (at least mostly, in this thread from what I can tell) a build that has very heavy power scaling in conquest, and can put heavy, if not twenty, bleeding stacks on you with Sharper Images/Magic Bullet synergy.

We can talk about Axe not doing 24 stacks of torment or what have you all day, but hyperbole aside, the strength of the build above for general matchup use has been established. If information is incorrect, say so; but as a general rule for people arguing vs the nerfs being pushed this patch, don't use inconsistencies as a ticket to discredit the entire claim or dodge it when a point is being made.

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> Preemptively blocking means you are hoping to get lucky to block the attack.

> There should be counterplay to stealth that requires skill, not luck.

If you want to argue that, I won't stop you. Just be aware that if you shave thieves stealth to make counterplaying them easier, they should also be made tankier so they have counterplay against people stripping what is currently a large portion of their defense. I'd rather a stealthy, brittle thief that you can stall off the point than a brawler. You cannot have neither~

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> > > > Mind you, guardians have access to shadowsteps too. Equality, am I right? You're vouching for theirs to get nerfed, too, correct?

> > > While technically it's a Meditation and only one, it should be shaved it bit when Thieves get theirs shaved.

> > > Leap of Faith is fine though, as it has obvious weakness, like being vulnerable during it or a highly telegraphed landing (which Shadow Steps don't have).

> > And merciful intervention.

> > And Sword 2.

> All of which require a target to teleport, unlike some of the Thief Shadow Steps.

Yeah, and thieves also have much less active and passive defense when they take damage. My argument is that if you want to telegraph shadowsteps, telegraph all of them instead of just the ones pertaining to thieves. Unless you want to make them tankier in exchange for being less speedy..

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > The entire point of stealth currently is to hide yourself from the other player, fishing for stealth attacks that have no counterplay (and no, pure luck in finding and revealing the invisible enemy or ~~hacks to see see through stealth~~ do not count as counterplay).

> >

> > You cannot argue soundly while discounting the argument that would challenge yours as not counting. Those things count (at least the fair ones.)

>

> > There are quite a few avenues on classes to gain access to revealed. Some of those classes also put a cc on the revealed individual on skill hit, or reveal the individual while they are cced.

> Meanwhile Revealed is few and rare in between with only Dragon Hunter having two: one being a trap and the other one being Spear of Justice, which really only would be a pot shot into randomly chosen directions, requiring enormous luck to hit the enemy with.

Dont potshot spear of justice. It's for preventing stealth, not revealing from stealth. Itll even pierce smoke screen if the thief just stealthed, provided it didnt hit an evade frame.

> On top of that, most AoE revealing skills have pitiful range and therefore rarely ever hit Thieves.

Thieves usually have to be in range to contest you on a point.

> I'm not sure if any Engineers even run Utility Goggles for that 1200 ranged Reveal.

Does that make it not counterplay?

> > In addition to that, stealthed characters do not cease to exist while they are stealthed, which makes marking the ground or laying AOEs or traps at your feet good to dissuade them.

> And if the Thief pays attention watch you, they know where you placed AoEs and evade them, or they trigger them and quickly disengage to heal after clearing the AoE.

Why is this not counterplay? You've wasted the thief's time, given yourself more time on the point, and have a few seconds for cd resets before they come back. If you placed an AOE you know the thief is nearby and can prepare for them. If you are DH you also have symbols and blocks to stall further. All this time the thief is losing/not gaining the objective. Just because you cant see them doesnt mean you can't control their actions/dissuade them from attacking for a few seconds/goad them into giving their location away.

> > You can also often judge when stealthed characters will attack you based on how their HP looked when they stealthed

> Seeing how fast Thieves can heal up, their remaining health is no valuable indicator.

Withdraw has a standard cd, thats their only quick heal. all you have to do is count it if it has been used. If they are half health or below they -absolutely- want to heal if they can help it, because of how glassy they are by nature. You can reasonably judge how aggressive a thief is going to be with you based on that and what utilities theyve spent.

> > block preemptively to stall them.

> Preemptively blocking means you are hoping to get lucky to block the attack.

No it doesn't, not if you use it with intent. It also stops them from attacking unless they are running basilisk venom. if they hit you, the block indication shows up and lets you know they're hugging you. If they dont hit you, they're probably waiting for your block to run out, which gives you time for their revealed to expire. If they restealth, there is usually a visual or audio cue that they did that, and that lets you know they used another resource to stall you, one they wont have when they decide to engage.

> All the "counterplay" consists of:

> 1) getting lucky with a block or Aegis and killing the Thief before they run away.

> 2) getting lucky with a small AoE Reveal and killing the Thief before they run away.

> 3) getting lucky due to the Thief not paying attention and triggering some Mark or Trap and killing the Thief before they run away.

Thieves are geared for decapping if they aren't Deadeye. If they're spending all their time running away from you 1v1, you're winning.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > 2. Shatters 1-3 because they all do stupid amounts of damage **or** cc you

> Stopped reading when you said shatter 1-3 deal stupid ammount of damage, then again 200 damage can be considered stupid, right?

That's a surprising argument to cherry pick for, especially when you are accusing shadow of taking things out of context and claiming that, because of that allegation, people should ignore him. I would advise against throwing stones in glass houses, but you do you though. Up to this point Shadow has been regular in providing at the very least full context screenshots and at the most videos when he says something is busted, so usually researching and testing his claims are very easy. Not that I think he's correct every time he makes a claim but at least he documents what he's talking about.

I'm not on board with magic bullet nerfs because I haven't objectively considered them **yet**, but there is very clearly an **or** there to create a distinction between whether a shatter does damage or CC. His argument is obviously saying that, given all the other things being thrown at you that can do significant damage over a Mesmer's normal rotation, Magic bullet situationally does too much.

Whether or not that is the case is up for debate, but it won't be being touched this iteration anyway.

So its deadeye but stronger and unblockable, until tactics gets adjusted?

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> > Mind you, guardians have access to shadowsteps too. Equality, am I right? You're vouching for theirs to get nerfed, too, correct?

> While technically it's a Meditation and only one, it should be shaved it bit when Thieves get theirs shaved.

> Leap of Faith is fine though, as it has obvious weakness, like being vulnerable during it or a highly telegraphed landing (which Shadow Steps don't have).

And merciful intervention.

And Sword 2.