Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> I noticed that the ranked q are holding out to release the condi dd's and staff troll floodgates into pvp.

>

> Snap to it guys, this is our chance to dominate the leaderboard!

>

> Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to **hear the lamentation of their necromancers** !

That last part isn't actually a joke if Crinn is anywhere within earshot, shh.

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> The only thing that needs to be “nerfed” is the jump exploit on staff. No one thinks that is intended or fair to fight.

>

> Other than that, both D/D and S/D have plenty of counterplay and vulnerability frames. Staff would also normally have vulnerability frames as well.

Gonna miss the staff bug when it goes, not gonna lie. But someone crafted that animation so if you whiff the evade you can't act for a split second, so fair nuff.

>@"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > **our power burst potential has been nullified**

> **Looks at DE MB 14-17k, oneshots through BS/DJ and 6k follows ups (everything without malice, only 1 malice on mark)**

He's right about DE MB being power burst and DJ being power burst. I'm surprised people don't play DE backstab. Its pretty much the old core backstab thief except it has that telegraph from stealth people have been wanting.

Hes not right about MB being 17k on one malice though. it takes 7 and Assassin signet to hit that.

Condi output actually isn't too bad at the moment. Each class spec has an easily accessible means of removing condis through their rotation as it stands right now. There's only a few outliers that can pump more conditions that can be realistically cleansed, and they are being nerfed surprisingly quickly.

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > “No skill” and “toxic” aren’t categories Anet uses for balance. I really wish these discussions wouldn’t always end up with people throwing around terms like “cheese” as though the term was a self evident truth that justified whatever nerf they wanted.

> >

> > Those terms are opinions that, basically, something should be nerfed, without any valid/accepted “because” statement. The only “because” I see in these posts is “because it isn’t fun to fight” or “because it doesn’t take enough skill to play.”

> >

> > However, Anet rarely/never balances around “I don’t have fun fighting an opponent.” And, Anet really doesn’t want to exclude people from PvP by requiring a narrow kind of “skill” in order to be able to play PvP.

> >

> > What Anet does balance around is total effectiveness, counterplayability and build diversity. Sticking to those areas will make your arguments not only better, generally, but will make them more appealing and convincing to Anet.

> >

>

> https://g33kp0rn.wordpress.com/2017/09/27/toxic-gamers-are-to-blame-for-bad-business-practises/

I'd consider someone demanding that a class be absolutely deleted from the current meta numerous times, without regard for the work involved in balancing for the vacuum that is left behind to be toxic.

_Just saying._ It's very obvious you are dissatisfied with Mesmer/Thief to the point that you want the entire game to be redone just so you don't have to deal with them.

The whole GW2 story is based around the complications that can occur when you just rip things you think are bad out of the ecosystem without trying to fix it nondestructively. I'm pretty sure you're going to be wasting your time pushing for what equates to arm amputation because of dissatisfaction with your fingers.

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> Kudos for applying the "try it before calling OP" principle.

>

> I think part of the problem in that specific build is that ArenaNet didn't consider the possibility of someone using pistol/nothing for anything other than early leveling, and Repeater is balanced on the assumption that it's a flipover for Shadow Strike. 2 initiative is far too little for what it does when you can spam it freely.

>

> It's from a later post, but you're definitely right about the Lotus being easier to land than Bound - to the point that when I was originally playing Daredevil in PvE back in the early HoT days, I used Lotus instead of Bound even on power builds because I could dodge freely and still get _something_ out of the trait. Bound requires dodging _towards_ the target or you won't hit anything - Lotus you can just dodge anywhere and likely you'll get a dagger flying in the target's direction. It's just that it went under the radar before because, outside of that annoying permastealth trapper troll build, condi thief (let alone condi daredevil) has never really been viable.

>

> So my gut feeling is that Lotus Training might well be the culprit here. Certainly, it seems to be the thing you'd be able to nerf without catching other, non problematic thief builds on the side.

Agreed. If repeater is bugging you go ahead and push to nerf it, it just seems like a really weird thing to nerf.

As I mentioned before I'd be fine with lotus training doing spike dot application if you dodge through someone, in exchange for it not throwing daggers when you dodge. Or, if that messes up PVE content, make the daggers do only condi impairment and then the actual dodge be the meat of the damage.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Aside from every Thief main wanting to argue with me, "I love you guys I really do," this build is encouraging braindead less skilled gameplay. Sorry, but it is. And furthermore, we need less power/boon/defense creeping and more balancing vs. the classes that were already outperforming.

>

> Just my opinion. Hate me hate me, I still love you

Just an aside, nobody here atm is attacking you personally or viewing you negatively because of your assertions here. This is how things get sorted out, especially when you have class mains involved.

Your recording work is appreciated. A couple of people here are just scratching their heads trying to figure out why the current condi balancing is overpowered because of its team utility.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Not to discredit @"Trevor Boyer.6524"

>

> But I'm telling you guys that condi staff isn't the build people are abusing for memes in inhouses and ques.

>

> Any good thief players like Anya, Beyond, Helio, etc. etc. can all troll extremely hard on the evade spam build. You don't even have to spam the evades. However, someone could probably play the build with their eyes closed and still be unable to lose a cap/die in an outnumbered fight. It also has team fight presence with 6k vaults and massive utility (which I won't give away either).

>

> The build is completely stupid to fight against. I refuse to give it away. The slow rate of balance means that if thieves start to run this build next season, ranked is going to be a complete joke.

c-c

So both condi and power staff(and I guess mainhand solo pistol?) are overperforming, with the former not having a specific mechanic apart from "Extremely effective in teams" for us to have a discussion about, and the latter being so unkillable that someone privy to it wont post a build so it gets fixed?

You're going to have to post the build if you want it fixed @"shadowpass.4236" . Otherwise, you're just griping to gripe, because you wont tell us what the problem is. Let it blow up ranked, nobody _really_ expects ranked to be balanced at this point in time anyway, if I can be bluntly pessimistic. And if it **is** that strong, Anet has shown they can just disable w/e they want if you can narrow down what's sourcing the toxicity. A class not being killable and being able to contest a point 1vX on its own, post rework, usually gets addressed reasonably quickly, given the response time on scrapper.

Going "There's a problem with thief! but I won't tell you!" is the most aggravating thing.

Also why is vault a problem? It's the most telegraphed attack a thief has. Dodge it. Interrupt it right at the end. Even if you get pegged by it for 6k, that's still far from a game changer given the position it puts the thief in.

I guess we could remove the missiles on Lotus entirely, in exchange for a higher damage spike for evading -through- an enemy.

Oh hohohoho

1 DE in your comp? yes.

2 DEs in your comp? You lose.

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> some visual settings can hardly see the field and it's barely noticeable when in heat of battle

Fair enough, especially with the new poison changes.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> **REPEATER**

*sweeps all objects, papers, etc off desk*

JFC WHAT

That aside... fair enough..? I say that tentatively.

A couple of things I would like to point out.

it looks like you're gonna be super upset if someone decides to hug you, especially if they have suitable cleanse. However, you did make some matchups leave point on numerous occasions. I will not comment on thief's +1 potential using this build because that is their job. You'd be just as battered if you ran into a +1 deadeye, thief being amazing at melting outnumbered is not new.

I can see how this draws parallels to the scrapper bunker play we have come to know (and despise). you outheal people 1v1, and can stall 1v2s long enough to get help, probably. At the same time, it isn't scrapper. It's definitely more fragile and anyone that decides to hug you with more than a modicum of cleanse is going to push you off point, probably long enough to decap.

All that being said.... I mean... I guess? I concede being able to down someone with only shortbow, poison bolts and repeater as too much bang for the buck.

I don't see it as being overpowered, though: anyone that focuses you 1v2 is going to put you down because your defense is all active.

It probably has the potential to be stupid if it's used specifically for area denial over points. I'm fine with removing easy area denial from the game, but is it really so strong/lacking counterplay that it needs tweaking?

An exception, though; as @"Fat Disgrace.4275" mentioned. specifically paired with panic strike. that's going to need a look. that can easily become just like the cheese that got CI deleted. You stack that with S/D and have even a rudimentary knowledge of when your immobs go off, and you have a choking gas version of the chaos storm nonsense.

TL;DR annoying, but not broken. Panic strike is concerning as is. Advocate a nerf it if you want I guess. I don't think anyone worth their salt as a thief is going to miss the recent ability to stack poison in that manner only through shortbow too much.

2:43

Real big play, lmao deadeye steamrolled

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:

> > > Invulnerability should never exist in any game with competitive pvp. It should never have been implemented in this game in the first place.

> >

> > why?

>

> Invulnerability *can* be balanced, but instantaneous, on-demand, no-cost invulnerability just turns a game into cooldown whack-a-mole rather than two players attempting to truly best each other with strategy or timing. GW2 uses the latter profusely which is why the game is a joke.

Its not two players attempting to truly best each other with strategy or timing.

Its a 5v5 or 2v2, for control of points, and during the span of the match any of those actors can be outnumbered. Invuln has application for stalling for support or retreating from an unwinnable situation, and that adds complexity to the game.

Dont forget you can always be +1ed if you pvp. Anet is pushing team play and strategy, not honor duels.

Invul should have a counter to itself baked in, like not being able to cast additional skills or becoming exhausted after using it for a specific amount of time.

The pool of invuls across classes is too small to introduce invulnerability counters that people will run unless theyre trying to [insert class here] bust.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> I may post some footage here a bit later to show you what I'm talking about.

This would be appreciated.

Mock match me in a duel room or something as well, if you're free in the evening around 7-10 PM (EST). I

> @"foste.3098" said:

> Also why is this thread in the pvp section and not the thief forum?

Nerf requests tend to remain in the pvp forum, since they touch every sphere of pvp, while suggestions/buff requests tend to be moved to their specific subforums, from what I've seen.

That's just based on loose data and theory, don't hold me to that.

I would be fine with a specific area that is observable from a PVE space being used for PVP, like a version of the arena in heart of the mists being available to and part of the open world.

But, it must be completely walled off to prevent people from wandering in without talking to an NPC, and no points of interest or vistas must require entering that space. It should be completely isolated for anything but watching, unless you opt in.

.... And yknow seeing as how the PVP arena literally does all of that AND upgrades your gear for you so you dont get curb stomped due to being lvl1...

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > FB, Scourge, Holosmith and Spellbreaker are broken. Mirage doesn't have a proper condi build right now. The only one is very, and I mean VERY, standard.

> >

> Only Mirage has a broken Condi build even now. Only Mirage is broken. All of those classes you've listed are fine. We only need Mirage nerfs.

> Also, Weaver is more capable now and can wreck in 1v1s but it's still acceptable. Mirage is broken beyond imagination and needs heavy handed nerfs to condi spamming abilities and Mantras.

>

>

Still? You sure? I thought CI was the last thing actually.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

>not calling for ultra nerf bat treatment. But kitten they could at least start by hot fixing the bug that is causing more poison spam than intended. It's kind of ridiculous to even let something like that go on longer than 24 hours after a patch drops.

T...they did.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> I absolutely love this forum far more than the game. Now staff DD suddenly op lmao smh. My God the oh God I died the class is OP whining is never ending. Learn to fight them, staff DD is somewhat underperforming in this meta especially after swipe change. Lmao u guys are unreal.

I wouldn't word it so crudely, but I am generally in agreement with this. People were crying about thieves having too much access to stealth, originally. which I understood the frustration of, but given that thieves had very little in the way of defense, so they were delegated to +1 and decap.

Now that thieves have the option to forgo stealth almost entirely and contest, there's pushback about them being too difficult to hit again.

That being said, I'm no stranger to nerfs. I'd rather nip this in the bud now before it becomes a grievous issue and Anet overreacts.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> WoodenPotatoes showed off a Shortbow condi thief on stream where the second it clips you with Choking Gas you get trucked by 16 stacks of poison.

This is a problem, and I think it's mostly fixed as of right now. There was a bug that allowed a DA trait to bypass its ICD. See the patch notes for yesterday.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> I think it's more about the balance between conquest attributes. You could adequately say that there are 3 main attributes:

> * Mobility

> * Damage

> * Sustain "Ability to hold a node"

>

> Where it feels a bit too much to me anyway, is that the fastest rotating class in the game, is now capable of 1v1ing and holding a node just as well as anything else. But it's a complex issue really. This is almost more of a problem with Shortbow than it is Daredevil. Mind you I am very specifically referencing Staff/Condi and not Staff/Staff pure physical builds.

Keep in mind other specs use shortbow. I sound like a broken record, but just for anyone who may echo that sentiment more strongly, refrain from balancing toward it for DD overperformance if you can. I don't need core being more useless because DD is overperforming (If it is, that remains to be seen.)

That being said, I wouldn't consider it as being as capable of node holding as anything else, while I admit that sphere has improved signiicantly.

> I just think this type of balancing is a trend we DO NOT want to begin going down. Classes/Builds around the board should look like this at best concerning attributes: Mobility (S) - Damage (A) - Sustain (B) or Mobility (B) - Damage (A) - Sustain (S). It starts to seriously narrow Class/Build diversity when there are specs rolling around like Holosmith as example that are rolling around with Mobility (A) - Damage (S) - Sustain (A maybe S) or now This Staff/Condi DD which I would grade as Mobility (S) - Damage (B) - Sustain (S). You know then you have things that start to fall out like Reaper Mobility © - Damage (S) - Sustain (B) or like a Core Guard Mobility (B) - Damage (S) - Sustain (B)

I'm in agreement with this, with some caveats that are irrelevant atm.

> Up until recent years, we've always had decent tradeoff build per build, between these types of conquest attributes, with only a couple builds really breaking it. But now Arenanet is starting to leave certain specs in clearly superior states of patching over others, concerning their ability to win conquest matches.

Okay so. What I'm mulling over is:

Daredevil has high mobility and high sustain. Currently this is leading to an overperformance

We can't nerf shortbow outright, because that will break the sphere of play for core thief.

Best thing I can think of, immediately, is to stop staff 3 from being usable while airborne as was said, but also slightly reduce its aftercast so it doesn't feel as clunky as it does normally. That puts punish frames on the evasion uptime and doesn't damage core at the same time, but also potentially keeps it usable.

I'm still not convinced about Daredevils being able to do damage to what Trevor calls a "(B) tier degree" though. I will need to see some kind of documentation on that. It seems like it should be impossible for a thief to approach high damage, high moba and high sustain as it stands now, given that trickery line holds their init gain, DA holds their condi damage and Acro holds their sustain.

They should at best have two of those, because exclusion of the trickery line in builds hurts their damage output indirectly. I'm thinking that its close to © tier damage in a small AOE, and people used to non stealth thieves melting are becoming frustrated that they do not, now. That would explain @"shadowpass.4236" 's claim that people are 4v1ing thieves (which is a player issue. go stand on a node.)

Going to need to see this in game outside of a few players who always play thief before I say it needs shaving outside of specifically the staff trick. I'm open to changing my mind on this, but I need to see like...footage or something about this being unbalanced for conquest.

Counters shouldn't be that hard.

I don't understand why people use that as a defense. Yes, getting traits disabled sucks, and yes some counters should be hard. However, there's no excuse for a class having an easily deployable skill interaction with no telegraph that can keep a class in place and unable to use any skills for 5-7 seconds while they hammer it for free at range. Why is nerfing that an outrage because "it was a counter"?

There's a difference between difficult class interactions and impossible ones.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Top 5 reasons why people main the classes/builds that they main:

>

> 1. It's the flavor of the month next OP thing.

> 2. Hardcore class loyalist, still plays a class when it's not even meta viable, because loves the way it feels.

> 3. Pigeonholed into that class because can't or doesn't want to learn a new class.

> 4. Looking for something new & fun.

> 5. Doesn't understand game, doesn't listen to anyone, doesn't care if the Class/Build sucks, Here for pvp wings.

Thief, Warrior: 2.

Everything else is 4, and for research. Hopefully with time all of those move to 2.

> @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Deadly Ambition has had it's bug fixed.

> >

> > > Deadly Ambition: Fixed a bug that could cause this trait to activate multiple times on the same target without going on cooldown.

> >

> > Someone run a mock and see if we are still looking at overperformance in terms of poison stacks from the DA line.

>

> It doesn't really seem to be perfectly fixed. Sometimes you get more poison that u should, but so far i've seen only 1 wonky detonate cluster for 6 poison stacks when it should have been 3. Which is definetely better than the 10-12 garanteed before

Thanks for your assistance on this.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

> > >

> > > Plus, they have extremely high _active_ defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

> >

> > A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.

> > It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

>

> Yeah it can still kill lol

>

> There was a menders staff thief hitting for 6k on his vaults. Knights and paladins can hit 2-3k bounds, 2-3k staff 3s, and 6k vaults as well.

>

> Also, you should watch Anya's stream or some other staff thieves play. I've seen some of them contest 1v4 at mid for an extended period of time.

Menders I believe, but the others? I need to see builds. I'll take a look. 1v4 on point contest as a thief sounds unbelievable, unless you sacrifice all of your damage output for some kind of gimmick and the entire team wastes time trying to kill you.

If condi thief needs tweaks it needs tweaks. There was a poison stacking issue not far out of the gate to begin with.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

> > The biggest downside to Staff/Staff daredevil is its low defense, one shot from a Ranger LB spammer or anyone with strong ranged attack can shut the build down.

>

> Low defense? A lot of them run knight/paladin amulet with dolyak runes.

>

> Plus, they have extremely high _active_ defenses with all of the evades and low cd stun break.

A Knight/Paladin Daredevil with Dolyak runes isn't going to kill anything, and also isnt going to be able to contest a point for very long.

It's either full Condi with carrion/rabid or Mara/Demo if you want to have any kind of presence for thieves.

Deadly Ambition has had it's bug fixed.

> Deadly Ambition: Fixed a bug that could cause this trait to activate multiple times on the same target without going on cooldown.

Someone run a mock and see if we are still looking at overperformance in terms of poison stacks from the DA line.