Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > ... there definitely should be. Would be much easier to sift out what is L2P and what is an actual issue if we all got together.

>

> People on the forums don't seem to agree with what is L2P and what is an actual issue. Some noticeable portion of threads are opened by people stating an issue with a profession they play against (and haven't played themselves). Some posts are made by people who think their prof has been over-nerfed, without recognizing the context.

>

> I'm sure lots of people can agree that balance is (at best) imperfect and perhaps even a plurality might agree its terrible. I doubt very much if many will agree with the overall details (at most, just with the most egregious examples).

This is true. But at the very least, having a pool of people you can set up a duel room with to have a granular look at how X and Y functions that can be done in tandem with their discussions here would probably be much more effective than just getting into a shouting match. It won't remove all the disagreements, but itll give an avenue for the people looking to be proactive.

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I'd join it.

> >

> > Forum Warriors > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > I'd join it.

> > >

> > > Forum Warriors [WAR]

> >

> > I like it I like it.

> >

>

> Can do EU branch of that 'Keyboard Warriors' just don't know about the tag.

[NERF]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Not my video but I like 90% of what I hear.

>

>

>

> TLDR:

>

> Remove the Evade on Bull's Rush.

I'm not fine with that.

If you're removing evade, then you better either give it a stability stack, or increase the knockdown if it connects, because every other tool in my kit except for whirlwind blade is "big hulking target that has to take the damage" .

I run discipline zerker. it'll be rough to take that lil bit of avoidance away with no replacement.

Rampage needs the nerf.

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> -start 3 clones on staff from distance

> -cast phantasm (try at max range)

> -right before phantasm turn clones, shatter (= 3 towards your target)

> -then you need to block something with scepter 2, and before that you shatter (=2 more towards your target, or 3 if you dodged before blocking)

> -2 spawn on your target, with 6 clones going for shatter

> -cast torch 5 while dodging (or pistol 4), leaves your with a clutter of 9 clones and 1 phantasm

> -torch 4 into stealth

>

> this is my standard rotation, depending on if evasive mirror has triggered recently, so i dodge the first attack or i block the first attack in this rotation leaving me with 8-9 clones and a phantasm, and you can go in stealth after

>

> You completely forgot the dying clones/phantasms that linger there for few seconds before dying off of your screen.

Interesting. I never considered shattering clones being part of that number. Usually a mesmer never runs toward you, so I just outright ignore any group of them I see that are doing that unless one of them has a tooltip they shouldnt.

Perhaps it could be higher than I reasoned before.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I'd join it.

>

> Forum Warriors [WAR]

I like it I like it.

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Skotlex.7580" said:

> > however, it is in all PvPers interest that new players stick to the mode. Otherwise that's how you lose the playerbase until left with a barren mode.

> >

> > Besides the obvious need for balance, Anet really could look at how else to improve the experience of new players to motivate them to stay around. Being lost and unable to practice without getting steamrolled seem like fine candidates for such thing.

>

> maybe by letting them play with friends?

>

> thats how I was introduced to the game mode and how I introduced many others.

>

> Win or lose, its always fun to play with friends.

I would like to add that, by being able to group up with people that can resist being total kittenholes for at least a few hours a day, you automatically push out toxic players that only have a presence in group matches because the Matchmaker allows them to. Some of those people are so vile that the only reason people interact with them at all is because they're forced to.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > @"Chiral.8915" said:

> > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > > I had my pitchfork ready, but isn't this you versus 2 mesmers?

> > > > >

> > > > > I see Naff the Harpist and Kronno.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pitchfork stowed.

> > > >

> > > > it appears to be so, tho its impossible to tell in combat especially when the models are all invisible.

> > > >

> > > > Tho 1 mesmer can still summon around 8 targets.

> > >

> > > Really? 8 targets? please tell me how

> >

> > Also don't know about 8, but 6 is definitely a lot anyway.

>

> It's 5 not 6.

> - clones (3 target)

> - fantasm traited to respawn after effect (2 target)

> - the last target is the mesmer and he won't summon himself.

>

> There is just an "illusion" of 6 targets per mesmer when in fact the 2 fantasms are just short lived weapon effects that have the drawback to be CC'ed/killed.

> We are 7+ years in the game and there are still PvP players that are confused by clones. I can only say that this is sad to see, especially when experienced players take time over and over to give easy tips on how to fight a mesmer.

~~ [idle comment about how this player is in plat] ~~

Nvm I'm seeing things.

No idea what AL is, but If there's a niche for Forum guilds that aren't brazenly toxic/exist for examining what is broken and what is not so we can put data/combat logs behind assertions, I can look into that. I am NA though.

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> its impossible to tell in combat especially when the models are all invisible.

I mean... Crab Fear was able to tell from this screenshot. If you're fighting two of those at the same time its not a balance issue. you should be doing your best to leave at that point.

That being said.

If the game client is being taxed so much that it's culling player models because of the visual spam, that probably should say one or two dozen things about why that should get looked at.

> Tho 1 mesmer can still summon around 8 targets.

Don't think that's true. The phantasms auto destroy after their moves and only 3 clones can be out at once. It might approach 5-6, and only on burst.

I understand that, even though it isnt 8, there is still frustration when it comes to sifting through that just to make sure your targets are aimed right while the mesmer is offloading damage on you/can insta-daze you if you try anything.

> @"Nezekan.2671" said:

> I have no sympathy for some classes making these complaints. The best example is most likely spellbreaker here, who DEFINITELY has the toolkit to deal with both condition damage and daze spam, but choose not to do it, to run their own barrage of CC and damage. Its a decision you made and if a build exists in meta that will punish you for making that decision, all the better.

True enough. Your build should not be able to beat everything. Warrior in general has the kit to deal with daze spam and the disengage to reset a tired staff mirage.

Zerker and defiant stance flips certain mirages builds on their heads now that their passives are shaved if they aren't playing properly, I have no doubt spellbreaker would be even worse.

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > If not, there definitely should be. Would be much easier to sift out what is L2P and what is an actual issue if we all got together.

> >

>

> We'd all eat each other alive before the first daylight.

*stirs tea*

But we do that anyway.

> @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> It's called the Bronze and Silver tier ;)

>

> Sorry, had to do it.

Ha!

I'm 85% serious about this though. There was a thief guild that kind of functioned as a forum network a while back, but I don't know what happened to it.

I'm figuring if the majority of us can write cohesive sentences, we'd also be fine with mock 5v5s/duels to get data on what beats what.

15% of my opinion is screaming its a bad idea but at this point what's it gonna do, lmao

If not, there definitely should be. Would be much easier to sift out what is L2P and what is an actual issue if we all got together.

You know how this goes, Bravan. Every other topic is to some extent griping over balance also..

It'll get aggregated if it gets too out of hand.

I don't think there's any reason for modeling of a new arena to be done at this time. The current one is very suitable, even for newbies, and any brainpower even aimed in PVPs direction needs to be focused on balance right now.

> What do you find annoying ? ;)

Only things that make a blip on my radar right now are magebane tether synergizing with MMR, and Mirage cloak. Everything else is tolerable.

I would like to see classes that are already busted become even more busted so that the last vestiges of my hope evaporate I can free myself from this wretched game mode

haha

@"praqtos.9035" said:

>> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> >

> > > You brought up s/d thief which doesnt have any addition traitlines-

> >

> > S/D Daredevil.

> Why you even POST if you dont follow the conversation? Why wouldnt you RE-read what he spoke about ? No, why bother,read latest without understanding the rest ?

I was saying that S/D Daredevil has the highest active evade uptime. There's a severe damage loss but still. I wasn't arguing anything with that, just drawing your attention to it. Its higher than S/D Thief. even with the hit to improvisation.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> >

> > > You brought up s/d thief which doesnt have any addition traitlines-

> >

> > S/D Daredevil.

> Why you even POST if you dont follow the conversation? Why wouldnt you RE-read what he spoke about ? No, why bother,read latest without understanding the rest ?

> > > Never seen any MASSIVE BLUE AURA on vaults, ever. LOL.

> >

> > [There is a blue glow on vault to differentiate it from bound.](

> > Also, Vault can be interrupted at the tail end.

> I know its can be interrupted somewhere at the very end. He pretend it to be interruptable when blue glow is gone which is not true, all skills by default have blue glow and its not an indicator : CC ME .

> > > The same way 99% of "average level forum users" clones are OP and impossible to find real memser and have perma of everything despite it not being true.

> > Nobody says that. The arguments that people usually try to frame as the above focus on illusion visual spam, like the prenerfed Chrono, the fact that Mirage can force target drops or that they can evade while stunned, because people do not specifically say these things but based on the context of their argument clearly intend them.

> Every single "target drop" was nerfed to the ground and not taken anymore just as AneD nerfed mirage that much that evade in stun is mandatory. If you look at their comments they get lost in clones and 1 of their solid arguments : you have clones, thats unfair.

> > I don't feel like arguing with you, I'm tired. If you have any particular retort that's fine but at the very least realize vault has a specific color in its anim.

> You also have to realize that this blue glow present on EVERY animation of DrD ONLY if you have high-medium animation(and may be high settings overall) which I(and apparently many other players for obvious reasons as they want LESS flashy animations on their screen, not more) dont use and keep all settings average-minimum and you cant expect everyone to run at highest. I could make the video and you will not see any glow but you can tinker with your settings to see it yourself. It doesnt make me wrong either

> If you dont read entire conversation and why its started why you even bother respond to me? May be you want to argue that people shouldnt have their opinion as well?

> >The people talking about skills being interruptible and telegraphed are pointing that out because, if you find that mechanic unfun, you can do something to stop it from being effective against you by being a little observant. They're taking it for granted that "unfun" means "a mechanic that you cannot find a way to counter or adequately respond to in an active way" when it comes to the particular skills.

Okay. I'm glad we could have this little discussion.

> If you think people cant find some things annoying regardless of amount of the "counterplay" you are delusional. Like seriously, I dont even said that is my problem, I was annoyed to see him put his "2 cents" everywhere he could "I CANT BELIEVE YOU STRUGGLE WITH EVADE-STAFF THIEF ITS JUST CANNOT BE !!1111".

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> Fair enough. Fun and efficiency are often at odds, sadly.

I'm not arguing that certain people are wrong or not considering certain skills fun. Fun is subjective and I am sure every skill in this game has someone that considers it unfun. The only thing I think that matters is if the skill is unfun because it is unfair. If you plain don't like it, fine. That observation I made was for the people that think it is unfun for the former reason.

I have no reason to argue people not liking certain skills objectively, thats why we have 9 classes to choose from.

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> What is even happening with the people who are crying about how a skill isn't adequately powerful because it can be interrupted and has a visual tell??? What absolute lunatic planet is this?? This is like that time I heard a self-proclaimed, life-long economics professor go full Stalin apologist. No risk allowed in my video game. It's not "strong" or "balanced" enough.

>

> Nobody here enjoys fun. I can't believe this.

*sips coffee*

Nobody said that, I think. If so, cool.

The people talking about skills being interruptible and telegraphed are pointing that out because, if you find that mechanic unfun, you can do something to stop it from being effective against you by being a little observant. They're taking it for granted that "unfun" means "a mechanic that you cannot find a way to counter or adequately respond to in an active way" when it comes to the particular skills.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> You brought up s/d thief which doesnt have any addition traitlines-

S/D Daredevil.

> Never seen any MASSIVE BLUE AURA on vaults, ever. LOL.

[There is a blue glow on vault to differentiate it from bound.](

Also, Vault can be interrupted at the tail end.

> The same way 99% of "average level forum users" clones are OP and impossible to find real memser and have perma of everything despite it not being true.

Nobody says that. The arguments that people usually try to frame as the above focus on illusion visual spam, like the prenerfed Chrono, the fact that Mirage can force target drops or that they can evade while stunned, because people do not specifically say these things but based on the context of their argument clearly intend them.

I don't feel like arguing with you, I'm tired. If you have any particular retort that's fine but at the very least realize vault has a specific color in its anim.

Fair enough. Fun and efficiency are often at odds, sadly.

Asura have less discernible telegraphs if players dont have standard user models on.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> People have finally gotten wise to Chaotic Interruption Condi, eh?

>

> I T B E G I N S

It only took several head scratching nerfs to power and portal.

Smells like a ranger (I doubt its a mesmer because boonrip) sinking shots into a guard only to be surprised when they die. But I'll suspend that assertion.

@"Crypto.7609" said:

> The only purpose of retal is to make some builds unplayable, like grenades engi, dual pistols thief etc.

> Thats all rly, no other purpose.

It's also to make it so people who have rotations that deal insane amounts of damage over many rapid hits need to at least pay attention to something other than their memorized combo.

I'd say working as intended. I'd personally like more like this. Whichever class he was playing, this death was due to him sinking all his damage without at least considering the guards target bar.

> @"DoomNexus.5324" said:

> 2) Thief still gets damage from retaliation and is susceptible to condi damage

> 3) Thief still gets affected by wells and other AoE fields

Right right, forgot about wards.

Fair enough. I'll maintain that the auto chain is annoying but contesting is fine since they can still take damage and be interrupted by specific things.