Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > People: Rampage needs some changes. Warr sustain via Might Makes Right could potentially use a shave. Other elites could use some love.

> > Anet: Arc Divider? Yeah, let's nerf that.

>

> Come on. Arc Divider was ridiculous though. It was hittting for 10k+ x3 in a huge aoe every 5 or 6 seconds, while moving.. It probably still hits for a ton.

I guess. It really depends on how long other specs remain busted. If everything comes down to where it needs to be I don't mind a damage shave.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> No single skill should have one shot potential. Period. Glassy builds should have potential to rush down opponents and combo them to death quickliy, but no single ability from any should be reaching close to 20k no mater how glassy they build. Heck, few skills should be hitting 10k unless they're long channels like Hundred Blades.

Not only that, but no skill combination that can land all of its hits within 1 second should do anywhere close to that level of damage either. Skill stacking that leads to one button presses that do 20k in a short timeframe should be considered similar to multiple button presses that can land all of their damage in the same time frame, with adjustment based on how avoidable the move is or how visible it or its setup is. I must sound like a broken record by now, but if you're going to hit one you need to hit them all and refrain from returning to that playstyle at every new mechanic introduction.

Rushdown is fine, but keep in mind classes have different health buffers, visibility, and active defense. There should be reasonable time to react to any given heavy damage burst before that damage is dealt.

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > No single skill should have one shot potential. Period. Glassy builds should have potential to rush down opponents and combo them to death quickliy, but no single ability from any should be reaching close to 20k no mater how glassy they build. Heck, few skills should be hitting 10k unless they're long channels like Hundred Blades.

> >

> > If its mirage or thief nerf it to ground, if it's any other class just dodge it

> > -community

>

> So

> Much

> This

~~Still sounds like bitterness, yknow~~ There's a mechanical difference between large, untelegraphed damage and large, telegraphed damage. People generally are more aggravated by things they cannot anticipate killing them.

> @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> I love when people who haven't played for 6+ years comment on balance... "Warrior has always been your baby" they say. They're wrong.

>

> They say that about mesmer, too. They're wrong.

>

> Every class has had a golden age, every class has had times at the bottom of the barrel.

*mumbles*meshasntdroppedbelowbtiersince2012

BUTYKNOW, this was to be expected anyway~ At least the balance team is going after what looks like direct causes of pvp ire. Let's hope that continues.

> @"Archer.4362" " said:

> imcompressible.

**Wheezing laughter**

Just delete PvP, every class gets a cheese mechanic when it gets buffed and then gets the things that weren't cheese nerfed to fix the cheese mechanics.

And we can't pick who we team with for ranking.

Asura needs size buff

> @"Ryan.9387" said:

> Spellbreaker down 2

nah

>holo up 1, soulbeast up 1.

yeah.

Their sustain is overtuned. We were here with Turret Engies a few years ago, except back then it was area denial moreso than sustain.

> @"FyzE.3472" said:

> Now read carefully.

> There are 2 steps you need to do in order to counter any current engineer build:

> 1. You pick Spellbreaker.

True, but if there are 9 classes in the game and one overperforms against 7 of them, it needs rebalancing.

> @"Dreddo.9865" said:

> The below damage occurs **out of stealth** and in milliseconds literally:

>

> 

> The deadeye then goes into stealth almost immediately, pew pew from afar and repeats after a bit of time. If he is threatened he can stealth and escape enemy focus. It's like infinite stealth and 'god mode' dps.

> Is this another 'legit balance feature' or something that slipped out of the team's notice?

you can't get hit by skirmishers shot and then death's judgement immediately. The thief has to stealth to get access to DJ.

Better question is why you got hit by all of skirmishers shot.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Stop this right now.

> >

> >**Mesmer **wasn't "nerfed" it got "neutered". It's on par with Renegade now. It is seriously garbage tier and there is no reason to complain about it.

> >

> FTFY.

Mesmer and its variants (but particularly mirage, since the other mesmer specs got buffed last iteration) aren't neutered, they just don't have the overwhelming forgiveness they had before.

You're right though. DE isn't bad. It's niche, but not bad. I'm not in favor of making DE any slipperier than it is now.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> The biggest reason why people have problems with DE or something like a LB Ranger, is because they do not view GW2 as a LOS game.

This this this. If you're getting targeted by some ranged junk and you're melee oriented, you better cheese LoS and terrain. your opponent built their kit to do damage from a distance, but the game built its land to counter that.

Hide behind a rock y'goof.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> While PvP is always going to have a bit of RNG, I personally believe the level involved in Improvisation is too much to be acceptable. Please rework it into something like this:

>

> **The Perfect Crime**

> You can use stolen skills twice. Your healing, utility and elite skills are all recharged by 20% each time you steal.

>

> This doesn't change the general philosophy of the game play and what Improvisation is designed to reward too much. You get to use stolen skills twice and you get to use your healing, utility, and elite skills more often the more you steal.

>

> I believe this will make it more even and healthier overall. Yes, you lose the highs of getting back to back Daggerstorms or whatever skill you really wanted to use twice. But you also no longer have to deal with it recharging a skill type you aren't even using at all. If your utilities are on cooldown you're always getting that value and momentum out of stealing.

>

> 20% feels like a good number as recharging five utilities by 20% kind of feels like recharging 1 utility by 100%, at least in flavor. Plus without the concern of having skills such as Daggerstorm getting used three times in a row due to getting two recharges on two steals, you could actually potentially outright remove the internal cooldown.

>

> I think it'd be healthier for everyone involved than the wildly varying in usefulness RNG it currently results in today.

I'd go for a -recharge everything on my hotbar- version of improv, sure. But that would probably lend itself to other problems. Imagine thieves running bandits defense and swindler's. Now on top of them having high evade they now have a block/stunbreak/knockdown on what is effectively a 13 second cooldown every time they nab something from you with steal.

If you'd prefer that, fine. But the chance of double daggerstorm as opposed to... say, double assassin signet or __nothing__ has the capability of being far more annoying IMO.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Conditions counter bunker. Over time conditions overwhelm your ability to cleanse.

By that same logic they'd be even more effective against classes that have less cleanse, or that have traded their cleanse for high (non-AOE) damage.

With the reduction to Mirage Cloak, Jaunt getting 3 charges again is fine, IF they add a little bit of recharge time onto the jaunts themselves. Keep the jaunt recharge the same, but make the recharge between uses like 3/4 - 1 seconds.

still tilted about evades being free while stunned but there's not much more you can do to MC that would still keep it viable at this point.

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> Because it's the best MMO combat out there by far. Everything else about the game just happens to suck but we're too addicted to quit for good.

*Sigh*

Its true.

@OP

So, some rambling;

There's several things that are causing this deterioration, imo, but the two most glaring are: The catch-22 regarding the ranking system, and insulated builds that acquire toxic players.

The only way to get rid of the latter problem (or lessen it) is to aggressively balance anything that encourages a playstyle that does not allow reasonable counterplay.

All heavy damage needs to be telegraphed or have significant visual indication that it is coming.

All damage that can be hidden in stealth needs to be moderated so it cannot do an entire HP bars worth of damage at once.

Classes that can be built to heal heavily need to have their damage moderated so that they cannot also output significant DPS at the same time.

Classes that can be built to damage heavily, whether condi or otherwise, need to have their sustain moderated so that they cannot also be tanky at the same time.

The longer builds that ignore one of these principles exist, the more toxic players will find, adopt, and harass the playerbase with them. The players that fit OPs description are usually the ones that run the most insulated builds they can find. It doesn't matter really if the build/class itself is mechanically easy to play, or requires memorization of a particular combo string to do significant damage.

Then there's the whole issue of ranked matches being generally a gamble. No idea how to solve that one. If you allow players to group by cherry picking you're going to have superteams/win trading for Ranking. If you disallow it you're going to have everyone being frustrated that newplayer.6969 is tanking the team because he doesn't know how to play thief in conquest, after the MMR system cant find anyone similar to your current standing to draft in, or that upsetplayer.1337 is actively sandbagging the team because he got tilted that nobody followed his dumb map-drawn instructions and found himself at far 3v1.

At this point, though, I am leaning toward superteams being the lesser evil. Being able to group together for ranking (or being forced to, really) would probably force people to improve so they can be drafted onto a team, as long as win trading is monitored with a close eye and the offenders that try to do it get banned for a few seasons.

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > Ive been running Diviners build with nearly 100% uptime on quickness telling people to JuST DoDgE iT lel

> > >

> > > Thanks forums.

> >

> > The arms/Strength variant?

> > Hope you enjoy getting pinballed by anyone with CC, lel

>

> Defense/discipline with diviner.. I dont hit as hard but hard enough.

>

> Otherwise for valk/berserker its arms/discipline.

>

> Im just having fun and switching builds here and there on it, CC is not an issue for me but heavy condi pressure is.

>

>

__Interesting.__

Going to look into diviner DPS . Are you running Blood Reckoning or another heal?

With the buff recently given to Zerkers and Spellbreaker already being viable, Rampage needs to come down fast in terms of power or have its CD extended significantly. It was a fine stopgap when warriors were sandbags but that has for the moment been resolved, and they don't need access to pulsing stab and 3 ccs every 90 seconds again.

Knock the CD up to 120 and see where that puts it.

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> Ive been running Diviners build with nearly 100% uptime on quickness telling people to JuST DoDgE iT lel

>

> Thanks forums.

The arms/Strength variant?

Hope you enjoy getting pinballed by anyone with CC, lel

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Markri.9475" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > Looking at thieves..I realize the scope of nerf threads......**there is no scope other than knocking a profession out of viability**

> > >

> > What do you mean ? Are thieves creating too many nerf threads?

>

> No thieves keep stealing all the nerf threads.

That's funny on several levels.

*stirs tea*

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Just out of curiosity, are you talking about balancing in the frame of WVW or in the frame of sPVP? Because:

> >

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> >

> > >**My staff tempest is being used as a WvW Support, no one said anything about going toe to toe with the Warrior.** BUT, when my capabilities as a class are completely snowballed and thrown out by passive abilities of another class with no effort, then thats a huge issue. I cant outheal even a portion of a berserker damage to either myself or to a teammates health, especially if they are squishy low health targets like myself. When a class that goes full glass can outsustain and have better defenses then those who actually have to spec and build for survivability then its a huge issue.

> >

> > > A warrior has little chance for error due to its damage being more consistent from many sources, it is easier to land a headbut due to players having to blow their dodges on already high damaging abilities and cleave. Not to mention a warrior **can hit any target in a group with headbut to instantly top off their zerk bar.** Couple this with the quickness the class receives when they go berserk **the animation of the skill is sometimes inconsistent when the damage is received thanks to lag.** (Same thing happens when a thief steals and the damage is applied before they actually teleport to you.)

> >

> > >**Defiant Stance**

> >

> > Just to make sure we are on the same page, I am talking about balancing as it pertains to conquest in spvp, not WVW.

> > I dont play WVW enough to have any say on the balancing efforts regarding that particular game mode. I will elaborate once I am certain we are both talking about the balancing efforts in SPVP.

> >

> > You're saying things that I find borderline _nuts_ personally, but that would make sense in WVW (Mesmers being a 1v1 class would relegate them to roaming in WVW and theyd be less effective in Zergs, etc. In Spvp Warriors don't often run defiant stance because skirmishes on point make it unviable more often than not, but it would make sense in a zerg) . In Spvp though, a lot of these interactions have different weight and I may be incorrect in assuming certain things as given. Let me know if you're talking from WVW experience or from SPVP, in which case I will continue thinking you're nuts and write another response.

> >

> > If you're talking about WVW then I got no idea what you're talking about. I didn't think that sphere was balanced at all tbh.

> >

>

> Yeah my scope was on WvW. Thats my fault since I am posting in the PvP section. Usually balance discussions rarely happen in the WvW focused section of the forum.

See now I understand you. I bet Arc Divider is a kitten __mess__ in wvw. Theres all sorts of food and sigil and armor combinations available in wvw that would probably make Arc Divider zerg-eater tier over there.

Keep in mind a lot of the stuff usable in wvw is heavily regulated in spvp, so the interactions between classes are different.

Just out of curiosity, are you talking about balancing in the frame of WVW or in the frame of sPVP? Because:

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

>**My staff tempest is being used as a WvW Support, no one said anything about going toe to toe with the Warrior.** BUT, when my capabilities as a class are completely snowballed and thrown out by passive abilities of another class with no effort, then thats a huge issue. I cant outheal even a portion of a berserker damage to either myself or to a teammates health, especially if they are squishy low health targets like myself. When a class that goes full glass can outsustain and have better defenses then those who actually have to spec and build for survivability then its a huge issue.

> A warrior has little chance for error due to its damage being more consistent from many sources, it is easier to land a headbut due to players having to blow their dodges on already high damaging abilities and cleave. Not to mention a warrior **can hit any target in a group with headbut to instantly top off their zerk bar.** Couple this with the quickness the class receives when they go berserk **the animation of the skill is sometimes inconsistent when the damage is received thanks to lag.** (Same thing happens when a thief steals and the damage is applied before they actually teleport to you.)

>**Defiant Stance**

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I am talking about balancing as it pertains to conquest in spvp, not WVW.

I dont play WVW enough to have any say on the balancing efforts regarding that particular game mode. I will elaborate once I am certain we are both talking about the balancing efforts in SPVP.

You're saying things that I find borderline _nuts_ personally, but that would make sense in WVW (Mesmers being a 1v1 class would relegate them to roaming in WVW and theyd be less effective in Zergs, etc. In Spvp Warriors don't often run defiant stance because skirmishes on point make it unviable more often than not, but it would make sense in a zerg) . In Spvp though, a lot of these interactions have different weight and I may be incorrect in assuming certain things as given. Let me know if you're talking from WVW experience or from SPVP, in which case I will continue thinking you're nuts and write another response.

If you're talking about WVW then I got no idea what you're talking about. I didn't think that sphere was balanced at all tbh.

Also before mesmers give me the death glare, disclaimer:

__no__ , I'm not trying to get zerk mes GS oneshot removed or nerfed. I don't like it, bur I respect its glassiness enough to tolerate it. My issue is with people consider untelegraphed burst fine but telegraphed burst is not, in particular context (even if they both down you.)

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> Not sure about ele's. But **Macros don't work well for mesmers** due to casting timing on combos. ( Cast time get's easily interrupted. ) A none lazy mesmer will actually tell you it's easier & more precise to manually combo burst a target then to have a macro do it & miss the burst every time due to movement interruptions ans so on.

Agreed. Too much can go wrong with bursts like this for you to warrant needing a macro for it, anyway. What if your mirror blade hits a random aegis? you just burned all your moves and revealed yourself for no reason.

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> Not excatly where I was going with this, not even sure if it matches the context to the quote. The comparison was between a mesmer GS combo and a GS warrior Combo of which one is more powerful. I stated that Warrior is more powerful because Arc divider does more damage, within a bigger radius, while at least mesmer has a trade off of it not working 100% when there are more enemies. *Arc Divider doesn't receive the same treatment as a gs combo because in order for that entire process to happen a mesmer must combo a chain of abilities that have to go off one after the next for it to work. Warrior on the other hand must only land 1 ability for it to work*.

First off. a burst combo not working to 100% down multiple enemies is not a tradeoff for it being able to absolutely erase one enemy, with little telegraph. In the context provided it would -at the very least- down the targeted enemy and heavily damage those nearby.

Let me explain what I meant regarding the quote you responded to above.

My argument centers around the relative power of these specs being altered by the context in which their attacks are launched, not just their raw damage or the number of targets they affect. Yes, Warrior does more raw damage, with a bigger radius. But it also:

* Takes more time to deliver that damage

* Delivers multiple visual indications that that damage is coming (The warrior is approaching, the warrior has landed headbutt (which itself has a telegraph), the warrior has turned red and is wielding a greatsword)

* Places the Warrior in close proximity of their opponent

To be hit with two or even three hits of Arc Divider. You have to ignore all of the above and then fail to dodge or move out of 450 range while the move is active. Even though warriors have gap closers, they have clear visual indication and a limited amount of time that this move is going to come out, before they damage you with it, and they cannot move very far while it is active. You don't need to be away from them before or after Arc Divider is being cast, only -as- it is being cast.

Compare that to Mesmer's iconic burst which:

* Does not require the mesmer to be very close to the opponent unless they wish to add more damage

* Takes significantly less time to deliver the damage

* Has no/very little indication that the damage is coming (it can be performed from stealth, players must look out for a faint purple sword image to avoid dying immediately)

Now, regarding this:

>Arc Divider doesn't receive the same treatment as a gs combo because in order for that entire process to happen a mesmer must combo a chain of abilities that have to go off one after the next for it to work. Warrior on the other hand must only land 1 ability for it to work*

The above isn't true.

Mesmer burst requires five abilities at its core. The Prestige -> Mirror Blade ->Power Lock -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

The only ability you need to land is Mirror blade. The rest of the damage, even if it comes from separate skills, is applied almost immediately. You can add other damaging abilities like Power Spike, but that is instant cast and has no telegraph either.

Warrior requires, as you said:

> Signet of Might -> Headbutt -> Berserk -> Arc divider.

It's still a combo. You need to land Headbutt (or, if you fancy, use signet of fury, which is nondamaging). After that, Berserk and Arc Divider deal damage.

Between Headbutt and Berserk, and Berserk and Arc Divider, and Arc Divider itself, you have ample opportunity to avoid or mitigate damage. Not to mention the warrior is completely visible as he approaches you and there is a visual indication as he uses each of these skills, so there is ample time to -prepare- to do these things as well.

> While I find the 1 shot combo potential toxic in the game, i can tolerate it on a mesmer just due to them being a 1v1 class by nature. Its pretty much their job to focus 1 target down at a time and move onto the next. That being said, Id also be down for support of big damage abilities needing more wind up and telegraphed effects. Elementalist has it, other classes should follow suit.

I don't understand this reasoning. First, mesmer being entitled to untelegraphed, large damage because they are a "1v1 class by nature." Who decided that they were that? Even if they were, that should not, on a proper playing field, grant them a free opener on anyone they see fit. Why would you tolerate unpredictable damage over predictable damage, if failing to dodge either gives you the same result, simply by nature of the class that is doing it? Either they (and every other oneshot build) are both toxic because they both deal too much damage and should be nerfed, or they are both fine because they have particular niches they fill. I am fine with either outcome, as long as it is consistent.

Even if we were to go by this rationale (and I dont agree with it, mind you) that it is mesmer's job to focus 1 target down with a oneshot burst and move on to the next, why would it be unfitting to claim that it is Warriors job to cleave in an area?

I also don't understand what you mean by big damage abilities needing more windup and telegraphed effects, while at the same time being objectively opposed to the damage zerker is doing at this time. Headbutt is telegraphed. Berserk is telegraphed. Arc divider has three hits, and any dodge after it is cast, either at or around the same time the first hit is coming out will outright evade two of the hits. How should it be more telegraphed?

> I dont know about you but **300 toughness is nothing when you still have the best access to sustainable abilities on the lowest CDs in the game**, not to mention highest health. Access to stability isnt really much of a issue if you are doing 1v1s since not many classes can burn all the stab you get from Balanced stance. (Trust me, I tried), Only counter to that is corrupting boons. If its a XvX situation then i'm sure the situation is covered on support at that point wheter if its from a mate blinding an enemy to getting stability from a outside source. Losing synergy with traits is something that all classes have to face sadly. In time theyl patch it out... then again some classes still suffer to this day from bad traits =/

What sustainable abilities? Endure pain and defy pain both last two seconds on a 30 second CD. They have the highest health because they don't have much access to active defense or damage mitigation. Most other classes can stealth to avoid counterpressure, force you to retarget with taunts or ambushes, or have other active abilities that grant them significant amounts of health as they are in combat. Berserkers have access to Adrenal health, yes, but since they give up their burst for Berserk mode, it only goes off if someone is within 240 range of the warrior and not evading as they cast Berserk. So they are actually LESS sustainy than normal warriors.

Can you specify how exactly Berserkers have the best sustain access on the lowest CD in the game?

You don't burn the stab from balanced stance. You wait 4 seconds.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Balanced_Stance

It applies stability four times, with each application lasting one second. If you can live for four seconds, The warrior has no stability and you can interrupt anything else they do, even if they decide to burn their heal to try arc divider again.

I will not argue xvx implications of berserker at this time. That statement is loaded with things that are not very relevant to whether arc divider itself requires nerfing to its damage, and it will make this argument even more confusing.

> Its easy to say to not hug a warrior, but they have leaps, gap closers, stability, dodges, blocks, invuln... yeah, I dont think I have much more to say on that, getting a warrior off of you is pretty tough now adays if they ignore half your abilities. or Maybe I'm just playing a very out of date class (Celestial Staff Tempest).

See above. You do not need to outmobile a warrior completely to avoid arc divider, only as it is coming out.

Staff Tempest is a spec built for either premade comps where you provide area support, or backline WVW support. It is not a proper spec for 1v1ing -anything-. Dagger, Focus, Warhorn and Scepter builds are all superior for 1v1 matchups, and more mobile to boot.

I'd do reward tracks for more finishers if you're listening, Anet.

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"megilandil.7506" said:

> > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > I dont know why we need macro in GW2 but Anet allow it

> > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65554/policy-macros-and-macro-use

> >

> > no they dont allow it.

> > from your link:

> > You **cannot** use macros to **create skill chains** in any **competitive environment**, including PvP, WvW, open world activities, races, etc.

>

> Dragon Fury link; Anet does allow it

Please don't get banned by pretending not to read the policy.

Macros are allowed for anything that does not give you a competitive advantage: clearing your inventory, dodge jumping, and for playing music. Nothing else.

When you make assertions like these, it helps to show the combat log so we can have a better idea of what erased your HP. even with macros a Spellbreaker still has relatively slow animations unless frenzied.

Just claiming that something was a macro because it was too fast for you to consider it legit doesn't really account for much. We have several mesmer bursts that can wipe HP bars as well and you dont need a macro to pull them off.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> If a perfect balance had been achieved in year 1 and things had never changed, would any of us still be having fun if we had played the same meta for 7 years with no changes and no new learning process to accompany those changes?

See but, part of that theoretical does not imply the other. If the balance was perfected (or close to perfected year one), the meta itself would remain autonomous. people would play things, then people would find counters to those things and etc without heavy dev intervention. The meta wouldnt stagnate if every class had a way to be strong/weak vs every other class, instead of the current situation where one or two classes counter everything else until theyre hit on the head by the nerf bat.

Tekken, Street Fighter, Smash Bros, even LoL have been able to keep their respective metas healthy for years, even a decade + in some cases because they took a look at some characters and made sure that the roster had characters that could stand up to other characters, but were weak to still other characters.

And nobody is saying new moves or specializations couldn't be included in this meta development. Just that, for each class you release into the game, it needs to be able to do something good and struggle at something else.

Or maybe players in general just havent been labbing enough and those counters actually exist, but people are too hung up on the meta to actually go dig them out?

I dont know at this point.

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> (Celestial Staff Tempest).

*Leans back in chair*

I will @ you when I finish some errands and a more responsive post but I will tell you -right now- that as a staff ele you are already crippled vs any melee oriented 1v1, especially warriors. That's normally a support spec, like hammer revenant.

> While I find the 1 shot combo potential toxic in the game, i can tolerate it on a mesmer just due to them being a 1v1 class by nature. Its pretty much their job to focus 1 target down at a time and move onto the next

I also cannot understand this, will elaborate later