Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> Mesmer was completely viable since 2012? Why it was played by only one person in entire gw and anyway had to reroll thief anyway? Xeph

> Then there was Helseth/supcutie who ever played mesmer and not because the portal, because they were exceptionally good at it and brought a portal/moa.Despite how bad mesmer was compared to other specs at that time this 2 skills made mesmer "always work"

So are you agreeing with me or- Because even if we consider your statement as true and it was -only- portal/moa that made mes always work, it would have remained viable since 2012. Helseth and supcutie were really good players, but that doesn't really mean that Mesmer was unviable if they saw success with it even during what you claim as it "being bad at that time."

> Respect..who ? Delusional people? :joy:

> Thats you keep insisting warrior/engi were in an unviable pit, when they never been there ,except warrior at time of chronobunker s1.

So are you agreeing with me or- Because scrapper was bad before its rework, and if warrior was unviable at any point that would make my assertion true. Why is it a stretch to claim those two classes were unviable at one point? You just brought up a situation where one of them clearly was, and [you can easily locate history for the other with a little digging.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/51788/why-does-scrapper-not-exist "scrapper was ") (Yes, that is a thread about its viability in pve, but take note o Akeno.4962 's comment regarding its viability and then compare that to the balance changelog on the wiki.)

**Again, all of this discussion is all over me jokingly assigning a title to Mesmer. I'm not really invested in this** even though it's __really__ interesting how this argument is developing. The thread is about Soulbeast. I do think it's -really- funny how averse you seem to be to Mes being called favored, but it isn't that serious and I'd like to take your advice and not derail everything into "mesmer OP".

So yknow Tldr no untelegraphed heavy damage, if heavy unblockable damage from range is okay because you can LoS revert the deadeye nerf for consistency etc.

Bunker build**S** ?

Theres only one bunker build that has presence, and it's probably accidental.

We will see if the other -potential- bunkers overperform once their damage oriented counterparts get brought down a bit.

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > most favorite Anet child

> >

> > Hey.

> >

> > Hey.

> >

> > How about let's not use "anet's favorite child" for everything that happens to be strong at the moment. Every class in this game, with the exception of mesmer, has spent significant time in E tier, with their builds fully unviable for pvp play of any kind. Further, the two class specs you mentioned _just climbed out of the unviable pit._

> >

> > That's mesmer's title, thank ye. We can punt that title around when/if they sink below B tier competitively.

> >

>

> Since when was engineer E-tier, need I remind you of cele engineer? Scrapper all through HoT, Holo through all of PoF. Zan made top 3 on EU as explosives Holo without having a weapon equiped.

>

> Warriors had many different viable, even meta breaking builds in vanilla. Namely shoutbow and hambow. Zerker was very dominant after the bunker hype at the start of HoT died down with the death of Chronobunker. Spellbreaker has been meta defining basically all the way through PoF.

Core Warrior hit unviable tier back in 2016 or so when they gutted healing signet without providing any buffs to sustain or other heals.

Berserker hit unviable up until recently, when they nerfed condition specs and made all zerkmode bursts count as level 1

Core engie __remains unviable__ . It was obnoxious once under turret engie builds, but after those builds were hit it never fully recovered and has been dipping in and out of viability since.

Scrapper was unviable until recently, and is currently overtuned.

Yes, Warrior at one point had good builds. Yes, Engie at one point had good builds. Yes Both of those classes have a spec that is currently overperforming.

What I was trying to point out was that, while both of these classes were dipped in unviability for some time, either in core or on one of their specs, Mesmer and its denominations have never had a spec that just plain did not work. They have always had a spec that was meta, or close to meta, and then others that are just good, that potentially become meta when buffs and reworks are applied. Every spec on mesmer, even throughout its various weapon nerfs and changes, had a setup that was viable for pvp since the game's start in 2012.

Again, keep in mind this is all about a trivial forum-issued title. I have my issues with mesmers, but I am not pushing for any additional nerfs to their builds at this time or anything. I am just pointing out that if any class is favored, it's probably the one that has avoided being punted out of viability by a nerf or rework the most.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> Dude, its like talking to a wall... why bother?

I'll have you know I am not just any wall , I am a WonderWall. Both "W"'s capitalized.

Put some respect on my ability to be absolutely un~~reasonable~~swayed by any assertion that is not hard proven, forever.

> @"kittyfur.6459" said:

>Why have all these pvp options if 90% of them can't be realistically used?

Good question. That being said-

> TEST YOUR PATCHES before you release it devs.

They probably do., but probably not to the extent you are seeking. If they don't I doubt they'd pay people to sit in a room, grind the amount of hours requires to get competent in pvp baseline, test out every available combination of skills and synergies and manage to sniff out all the busted stuff before the patch goes live. Even if they did that, patches would be even longer than they are now.

All that being said, it is understandably irritating when obnoxious mechanics are dropped into the game or classes are reworked in a way that both makes their meta build more powerful and removes the viability from modified builds.

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Zenix.6198" said:

> > > "Just LoS" is my new favorite meme.

> > > Especially in node-holding gamemode.

> > > Finally all that dungeon farming experience pays off.

> >

> > All I'm saying is, if "Just LoS", while sound advice, justifies heavy unblockable damage from 1500 range, I want Deaths Judgement back to where it was.

> >

> >

>

> [https://youtu.be/BVeZnsuY7Vc](https://youtu.be/BVeZnsuY7Vc "https://youtu.be/BVeZnsuY7Vc")

>

>

lmao, worth a shot

Guild Wars 2: Ocean's Abyss confirmed

Jokes aside, it's a nice theory. Whoever Kralk's mother is has a heavy bearing on the next story focus, and there was just an underwater rework.. Let's see if you're right.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> 1. let me fight as snowman

> 2. do something about bots and match manipulators ASAP

> 3. fix broken/ op things as soon as they come up

To be honest, any one of these being transparently addressed , particularly the first, would be a huge boon for PVP.

More specifically for myself:

- Audio information when an attack is launched from stealth (Can be reduced sound, as long as paying attention lets you hear it up close)

- Reflects or Projectile Destroying moves not counted as blocks internally. Reflects should always reflect and projectile destruction moves should always destroy projectiles.

- A larger visual indication on unblockable activations (an aura perhaps) when the unblockable property is not tied to a specific move?

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> Careful. You might come across as " bitter" and " wanting everyone else to suffer"

You can be bitter and also right.

The whining will continue as long as there are classes that, when paired against the rest of the lineup, can outsustain in most general situations or can deliver HP bars worth of damage in most general situations in extremely short periods of time/without telegraph. The claims that are baseless have a very short shelf life here.

What I don't understand is people refusing to evaluate their own counterplay when it is obvious Anet does not wish to reward certain playstyles. I understand the joke, but why is "just LoS" a defense for being dealt heavy, unblockable damage from 1500 range, when Deadeye, which centered around that playstyle, got heavily nerfed and that defense implies your class is immediately advantaged in the open? Why is "just dodge" a defense for that kind of damage at range/without telegraph when reworked Zerker had to hug you to do the same damage and got tuned?

All I'm saying is reward the type of playstyle you want to reward evenly across the board. If a class has stealth or can do damage from range, adjust their damage so that the reward scales with the risk involved in the playstyle.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> Not sure if joking

Not actually joking on this one.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> That's what I think about your posts ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thank you, Thank you. I'll be here all week, remember to smash that like button and follow me on the twitter.

> @"Zenix.6198" said:

> "Just LoS" is my new favorite meme.

> Especially in node-holding gamemode.

> Finally all that dungeon farming experience pays off.

All I'm saying is, if "Just LoS", while sound advice, justifies heavy unblockable damage from 1500 range, I want Deaths Judgement back to where it was.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> Does it mean class itself was unviable and had no options? Ele was like that, these 2 are not

That's not what I said. Spellbreaker and Holo both need tuning, but the other specs underneath those classes were significantly underpowered. All I'm saying is that those classes have had enough hits over time to be disqualified as 'favored'.

> Even at forum all "reee mesmer" threads doesnt exist anymore-

Because they recently got balanced. That doesn't mean they became unviable.

That being said-

>((((If you want to talk about it either privately or drop it, as thread is not about it))))

It was a joke moreso than a serious jab or an invitation to discussion. As you said, this is about SB~

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> As if they ever been in _UNVIABLE PIT_

Yeah. Berserker and Scrapper were both unviable for significant periods of time.

> Highly doubt you can call something "favorite child" after seeing over 70% nerfs all around unless you are memeing

Sure can, every denomination of Mes specialization is still viable even -after- the nerfs. It surely wasn't a 70% nerf all around, but if you can hit a class that hard over time and it can still do its matchups properly, it was heavily overtuned. It's only recently that Arenanet seems to be considering "maybe don't bust mesmer or its specs" as a balance recourse.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> most favorite Anet child

Hey.

Hey.

How about let's not use "anet's favorite child" for everything that happens to be strong at the moment. Every class in this game, with the exception of mesmer, has spent significant time in E tier, with their builds fully unviable for pvp play of any kind. Further, the two class specs you mentioned _just climbed out of the unviable pit._

That's mesmer's title, thank ye. We can punt that title around when/if they sink below B tier competitively.

> @"bOTEB.1573" said:

> 20% dmg nerf of a skill that was dealing 3 times more dmg than the SLB. Still, berserker deals far too much dmg

If Zerker still deals too much damage, Soulbeast deals too much damage.

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

> > >

> > > Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.

> >

> > Just chiming in to +1 both of these statements. Kit engies in particular are exponentially more difficult.

> > That doesn't mean I approve of the current holomancer state.

> >

>

> I didnt say that lol

My bad, fixing that quote.

EDIT: Fixed, thanks for pointing out misquote.

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> Game was made to reward players like that.

P much. They chased off the majority of people who would form teams by forcing ranked to be mostly PuG and shoveling all the teammakers into tournaments that don't have very flexible hours. What's left are players that build to carry teams, expect to carry teams, then get upset when they can't carry teams.

Sometimes I question why I get so worked up about trying to balance the classes.

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> GW2? PvP? Mate the whole world has disrespectful people with shameful behaviour.

This is true.

> Just learn to cope.

However, nah. People shouldn't expect or accept people being jackkittens -anywhere-.

>@"Vagrant.7206 said:"

> As I said, core mesmer is the inferior choice to chrono and mirage, because you lose nothing for picking those e-specs and gain some substantial buffs. That does not mean core mesmer is in the gutter -- it's just an obviously inferior choice to its e-specs.

>

> Core engineer, in competitive game modes, is definitely in the gutter. You have to play way harder than everyone else to even perform at the button-mashing level of everyone else. Kits are slow and unwieldy, and our other skills don't make up for it.

Just chiming in to +1 both of these statements. Kit engies in particular are exponentially more difficult.

That doesn't mean I approve of the current holomancer state.

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> A trivial thing that nobody plays at high tier games, but all the silver 2 players are flooding the forums crying for it to be nerfed.

Interesting.

That's the same ~~excuse~~ defense Mirage mains made.

> @"Vithzerai.3291" said:

> I'm starting to get a little irate with this argument of "You have to use your resources to stop the Soulbeast burst and that's unfair."

Interesting.

That's the same ~~excuse~~ defense Warrior mains made when Zerker got reworked.

Don't mind me. Just-

> @"Vithzerai.3291" said:

> Cmon, don't be flippant, it's not a one-shot. (And if it ever is there are prerequisites that have to be met for it to be even remotely close to a one-shot, and it's not just pressing 2 buttons like everyone would have you believe.)

*coughs in deadeye main*

If it does significant amounts of potentially untelegraphed damage, or allows you to outheal focused dps indefinitely without having to disengage from a point, it needs to go ~~apparently~~. Powermes burst next.

Anything that causes an in game advantage is explicitly banned already.

Anything that is for QOL, like mount menus, can have a button assigned to them easily. I use the keypad for my mounts.

Banning the addons that dont give a competitive edge because you personally dislike them is asking for trouble.

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Farming gold and gold/hour is **ALWAYS** a competitive event.

I don't agree that the task of farming gold is even a competitive event, but IF it is competitive as you say, there is nothing provided by any addons that you cannot take advantage of by using the wiki and its associated timers, drawing a map of the gather routes yourself, or other such optimization.

If you're competitive about it you'd still be looking for ways to streamline your gain via methods not utilized by the general playerbase.

> @"people that say it's a meme build"

> -snip-

I mean

Zerker Arc Divider was a meme build and it couldn't put your hp to half as an opener from 1500 range/open with stealth, and the old DJ on Deadeye -could-, but got nerfed, so-

What matters is if it's too strong for what it does. If getting blown up by a visible target at close range, or by a target that needs to explicitly telegraph from afar is too much, then let's go for consistency.

If we're hitting meme builds lets hit meme builds.

Tbh if Anet thinks the old Arc Divider damage is too strong for berserker in its reworked state, then Soulbeast in its current state is also too strong.

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> frustrated that not even a META build could carry them.

Woah there, save some accurate statement for the rest of us

That being said, its good to see a handful of people actively not feeding in to the ego cesspool that is PVP chat.

I like the dev team's recent direction, but Swipe is silly.

There was no reason to reduce the steal range, at least not by that much. Unblockable doesn't matter because most thieves will not steal to a block. They will steal to interrupt key skills which are normally heals. The defense modifications made to thief via Weakening Strikes and Marauders Resilience do not compensate on their own for the playstyle Swipe promotes, so at this point Swipe is a direct nerf.

What am I going to steal to, that would really ruin my day if the steal itself were blocked? I can only think of Arcane Shield on Ele and Shelter on Guard being affected by this, and one of those class matchups I am encouraged to avoid when I run thief anyway. Other than that, what other use case is there?

I am all for the idea of a brawler thief, but this isn't it. There needs to be something else on Swipe if the range nerf is set in stone.

> @"xp eke xp.6724" said:

> Hoy, i just want to know:

> how many times are you toxic? (Per match) And on which way? Did you flame others, give up, or something else? Against teammates or enermies? Are you sorry about that?

>

> And ofc how does it look on the other side? Did others be toxic against you?

>

>

> At least how many players (including you), did the opposite? Like being nice to you and so on.

>

> Ty for answers :)

I very rarely speak to toxic people in game or acknowledge anything toxic anyone says to me. They can hold that. I usually go out of my way to try to be nice to at least one person per game, even on the opposing team. That kitten'll eat at you if you let it.

I very rarely get accolades unless I save someone from a poor matchup.

> @"Falan.1839" said:

> I don't understand why they left Rampage intact in this "mini balance patch". It's like they always have to miss something. Tuning down Scrapper and Rev is right (I can't tell yet if the amount of nerf was sufficient), but leaving Rampage untouched is a big no go.

Mini means mini. They can get Rampage and the other overtuned items in their next focused balancing. This was stellar for a quick update, even though it hit Arc Divider and I thought sundering burst would be enough. Still p. targeted.