Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> If mesmer was carried by build before, does that mean Rangers, Engies, and Wars are getting carried by their builds now?

> Having builds that have equal or more defensive options, and either high burst or more reliable damage?

Yes. The above classes need to be looked at and need changes made to them as well. Heralds might also need tuning, though I am willing to kind of hold the conclusion on that due to how allergic they are to conditions. No classes should be able to attain a build or rotation that walls any counterplay out. That's the only way the meta is going to become autonomous.

> Does that mean thief, has been carried for years? Because until PoF dropped, and excluding S1 Chronobunk (which was gutted immediately) Mes was pretty much easily replaced in slot by thief if not Portal since pre HoT, and later double moa?

No. And portal nerf needs to be reverted anyway.

I'm usually the first one to come to the forums running my mouth about mesmer, but there are several nerfs that were done before the previous round that need to be addressed at least in part, IMO.

**That being said.**

I want to see where this goes. If they are slowly taking all of the overperforming specs down a peg, I want to see what the game looks like after Spellbreaker, Soulbeast, Scrapper and Holosmith get touched before I start yammering about unneeded nerfs outside of Portal. The past few patches have been heavy tone downs of toxic mechanics. I want to see if that pattern continues.

If everything gets bumped down a peg, then dead traits and the like can be discussed. I am totally fine with every class having to manage their resources as hard as, say, thief. Every class has dead traits, some have had dead traits for years. Mesmer being late to that party is not a travesty to me.

[ **quietly chuckles in evasive mirror not having 100% uptime anymore on dodge, the audacity of that trait pre-nerf.** ]

> @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:

> The soulbeast sicem lb build has been around for a very long time, kind of interesting that people suddenly start crying for nerf once a build becomes more popular. What is next, FA weaver burst being too high? If people honestly dislike 1 shot burst so much, they should be complaining about the class design, not one particular skill/combo.

it's not being cried about simply because it's more popular. It is being whined about because, slowly, the weaknesses of that build are being patched out with minor changes.

For example, the recent change to unstoppable union and unblockables in general make it so that the only projectile hate that worked actively, projectile destruction, now longer works against that damage. Add that to the fact that ranger longbow skills are markedly longer ranged than their tooltip claims, and you have classes that can open on you from outside of 1500 range and force you to burn dodges if you do not happen to be near a pillar or some obfuscating terrain.

Most of us also are, in fact, critiquing the design as well, even in this thread. Soulbeasts access to multiplicative damage, its ability to hide telegraphed, high damage attacks with stealth, its ability to revive pets by merging and thus negate any counterplay that targets the pets for disable all stack and are all contributing to the problem. The cries about rapid fire and oneshot maul are just the culmination of all of that.

"Just dodge" and "use the terrain" are not enough to justify the strength of the class. Anet has shown clearly that even highly telegraphed, unstealthable attacks that require you to be within 240 range of the opponent have a cap as to how much damage they should be able to do, and highly telegraphed attacks from distance on less tanky classes also have a limit as well. If Zerker Arc Divider and Deaths Judgement needed nerfs to allow counterplay that didnt just amount to dodging or using the terrain, then so does this.

Soulbeast also is one of the remaining elite specs that has no tradeoff that causes it to perform any differently from Core Ranger at baseline. It is essentially, as it stands right now, Core Ranger with buffs, instead of a variant on core like Anet has done for Thief, Warrior, Revenant, and Mesmer Specs.

> @"bOTEB.1573" said:

> My experience while playing Soulbeast:

>

> Every profession keep evading my attacks, using invulnerable skills or just taking advantage of LOS. As a Sic 'Em ranger I need to land all these skills (WI, Maul etc) in ~10 sec in order to take the kill. Otherwise I have to kite and run with little to no condi clean until all my CD reset. Most of the time I am dead or alive and have a chance to try again if the enemy isn't very strong. The problem is that all the skills are super easy to spot.

>

> Let's be real here, shall we? How can you even compare this niche build (which is bad in a lot of things) to the more viable builds like FBs, Necros, Heralds, Spellbreakers, Holos, Scrappers? No way we can compete there! If it was so powerful, wouldn't everyone play it? Most of you are saying that Holos and SLBs are the most OP and overtuned builds, but where are all the SLBs, up there? I mean if a profession/build is stronger than another profession/build people will play it. Where are the Soulbeasts?

[Mmm.](https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-11/21/10/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane03/anigif_sub-buzz-25972-1479741401-2.gif "https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-11/21/10/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane03/anigif_sub-buzz-25972-1479741401-2.gif ")

Yes but a very select few of them should probably not be.

Hammer toss, vapor form, Fear, and the other slow, stally ones should not be interruptible.

The skills that allow someone to get back into a fight like vengeance, lick wounds and the like __definitely should be.__

That being said, they're mostly good as they are now. you can interrupt most key downed skills as they stand with certain ccs.

Imagine taking the game, especially unranked, that seriously.

Lmao, keep it moving my guy.

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> Condi short bow renegade.

+1 for this

You kill anyone serious in ranked with that and it should automatically punt them down a tier.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

>Arcing slice

Go for it. That seems fair to me.

>MMR

Heavily not convinced on this, especially since the endurance gen got nerfed from 5 to 2 per stack. We will have to agree to disagree about which line it belongs in. I like having a smidge of sustain in the strength line, as someone who runs Str/Disc/Zerker. That is part of the only sustain I have, since I avoid running stances for my own particular luls. You shouldnt have to run tactics, a line focused on team support, for sustain for yourself, and defense already has a good amount of it and probably should not have anything additional added to it.

>Condi Bombs

There are still some builds with heavy condi pressure out there that necessitate shake it off. If it gets toned down because the most egregious of them has been pulled back, I'd like additional cd on zerker stance with the same uptime. I've run into too many condi builds that put dots on you then immediately start kiting, that -also- have instant or close to instant cast interrupts to rely on swaps/mending for that. In addition to that condi bombs -should- exist. They just should have specific condi pools that they stick to that leave room for playstyles getting around them, instead of torment and confusion being stacked together, for instance. (/tinybitter)

They did it well for revenant/renegade, and even condi ranger.

You shave some time off of zerk stance though, I'll play with 4 seconds of resist on a cd.

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> Hey! if you allowed to abuse it, i can too. Come & dig with me. You belong in this hole with me.

Lmao

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

>Thief can 1v1 just saying :P xD

Put an asterisk next to that.

They __can__ but in most cases their reliance on stealth and average damage will cause them to take too long to contest any particular point. not to mention that them using stealth gives opponents progress for free.

You can 1v1 sure, but if your opponent isnt a squishy necro/reaper, a glass ele, or another worse thief, you're not claiming that point before the opposing guard on mid can come blow you up.

And in addition to you getting salt drowned if you fail at any point, if you take too long slowly losing a point vs a non-glass be prepared to be keelhauled again.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > What do you call holo then?

> > It's definitely a meta build but they don't excel at any 1 thing. They can give support, they can do damage in a teamfight and they can duel on a node and hold it. Just like sword weaver can.

>

> Master of All Trades.

Jack of absolutely nothing?

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > > @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > > > @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> > > > > @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > > > > I just got reported for AFK.... in Unrank :O

> > > > > Do you think that mods want's to police every plebs complaints when it's like this?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > But...were you a.f.k.?

> > >

> > > yes, in U"R"A"N"K...

> > > you tell me you report ppl for afk'ing in Unrank? I can understand rank cuz of the seasonal implications. But Unrank? really..

> > > I say they should ban everyone reporting afker's from unrank

> >

> > Oh yes, because being AFK ruins the game for your team mates. No matter if ranked or unranked. If you want to go AFK, don't join a sPvP game and go AFK in the lobby.

>

> Then if that's the case, i'll be spamming that report button on you every chance i get during matches. Don't matter what for.

*Afks in unranked

*Threatens to flood Anet with false reports because they didn't like that they got reported for AFKing in unranked

Cmon man, put down the shovel and stop digging that hole. Just avoid afking if you pvp please.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

> >

> > **This is a significant issue.** When Mirage first was being presented, a heavy amount of mesmers __Screamed__ that Elusive mind was overpowered, and that the mechanic of being unaffected by cc/being able to evade while CC could not go live. Instead, Anet pushed it anyway, then:

> >

> > Nerfed power core builds.

> > Nerfed Portal, for some reason.

> > Added more condi damage to mirage, then took it away again.

> > Nerfed Confounding suggestions for some reason.

> > Added Exhaustion to EM even though baseline mirages could still evade without taking the trait, thus making the trait completely useless and not fixing the problem

> > Nerfed Jaunt, for some reason.

> > Increased the Exhaustion on EM even though nobody was taking it (why would you? The functionality of that trait is provided baseline.)

> > Reduced the timeframe on evasion and still not addressing the fact that mirages could dodge while under cc.

> > Nerfing power on Axes of symmetry even though it wasn't doing anything. (power build nerf again)

> > Probably some other junk that I didn't see that would also make me squint.

> >

> > They could have easily fixed that entire train of nonsense by just making it so mirages could not evade while stunned (they have the tech for it since they cannot evade while channeling tranquility, that patch was made specifically for that) unless they take elusive mind. Then the hard to pin down mirages would do less damage since they would take EM, and not infinite horizons (thus theyd have a damage nerf), and the ones that wanted to run infinite horizon would __explode if they didnt play perfectly or got cced.__

> >

> > Instead __none of that happened.__ It's almost like nobody on the balance team at that time played mirage, and realized maybe it wasn't a good idea to have a class immune to cc also put the only conditions on the game that punish you for moving and acting on you Then when metrics and forum salt got too high, they nerfed everything -but- the problem.

>

> Basically. Such is the sad story of Mirage.

>

> >

> >

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > "OMG its so unfair my build got nerfed because it shared some aspect of this other build that was OP, deserved to be nerfed. But mine wasn't OP and didn't! deserve nerfs"

> > > Has been the chorus of people playing OP specs since Vanilla before Elite Specializations were ever a thing. "NeRf ThE eLiTe NoT cOrE" is just a really easy scapegoat when there absolutely are OP and unhealthy stuff in every class's core traitlines. OP elite specializations can only reach that status with two strong core trait lines at it's back.

> >

> > Thaaaat ain't it chief, personally.

> > If the core spec had heavy counters/counterplay, and then the introduction of an elite spec __suddenly makes the elite overpowered af__ , then all they need to do is nerf the elite, instead of reaching into the classes innards. If it was not a problem with core, it should not be a problem with elite.

> >

> > Unfortunately, as Solori said, they don't have a habit of doing this.

>

> Nah. As I said, there is no OP elite specialization build that doesn't also have two over performing traitlines backing it up. Even if you smiter's booned all the elite specializations into the dustbin of history, chances are the core traitlines they're running now would 100% still be run. And it's not just "Gutting 2012 stuff that was never a problem". A lot of stuff on the core classes are absolutely either over tuned, unhealthy, or just gets power crept. Look at warrior. Perfect example.

>

> Peak Performance and Might Make Right are completely new core traits. They were added with or after Path of Fire. As is evading 6k critting Bull's Charge, 6 condi cleanse 2 ammo Shake It Off and reduced cooldown Rampage. Rampage's mechanics might not have been changed, but the cooldown was reduced 180 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP and it gained the Peak Performance 10% damage modifier, which gives it a traited 72 second cooldown so its up every single fight. This isn't just "2012 core warrior" stuff these are changes that happened to core warrior traits and skills _with or after_ Path of Fire. Combine them with Magebane Tether's ridiculous might generation and you get a build which has top tier mobility, damage, active mitigation, endurance regeneration, and self healing all rolled into one.

>

> Might Makes Right is also a very reckless trait for Arenanet to have ever added to the Strength traitline in particular. Strength is the power DPS tree, with tons of might generation and damage modifiers. They've given the tree based around doing the most power damage one of the best traits for sustain and self healing and endurance regeneration? That just doesn't seem well thought out aside from "This fits thematically with Strength. Stick it there.". This sort of healing should be something you'd find in the Tactics Tree as a grandmaster trait designed for group healing and support and would heal you and your allies when you gain might.

>

> Core stuff absolutely needs to be looked at for a number of professions and is looked at by Arenanet, and rightly so.

See now, here's the thing-

I'll agree with you about rampage and its synergy with peak performance, but I'm gonna have to disagree about MMR and Shake it Off. MMR overperforms specifically when paired with Magebane Tether, which does too much as it stands. When not paired with spellbreaker, MMR only relies on might gen from GS, swaps and courage, which is acceptable to me.

You could fix the synergy by nerfing Magebane (The elite.).

As for Shake It Off: Gonna need something to live through condi bombs. That shout became that way because of the current nature of condibombs. Zerker stance got whined down to very situational effectiveness, without enough given back on its cooldown, so-

I'm aware that there are some overperformances when it comes to spellbreaker right now, but I'm not convinced that gutting the core (for any class) is what the game needs. most of these things come to a head when focused through an elite, and only particular elites at that. MMR run on, say, a zerker would be far less impactful, even with Decap as it is now.

Rampage being buffed by peak performance and Magebane might gen, however? Yeah. those can be stripped. they give too much for too little effort.

~~also dodge bulls charge~~ I dont actually care if bulls charge gets a damage nerf or not, its mostly a setup and if you get caught by it you're going to take cyclone axe/whatever burst I have armed if you dont immediately stunbreak anyway.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > Oneshot maul feels unfair because its telegraph can be hidden by several means, including forage and leaping through a smokescale field, which you cannot rightly interrupt because standing in the field counts as an evade (If I am incorrect about that field, let me know.).

> > >

> > > Yeah you're incorrect. The pet gains evasion and incoming condition immunity while standing in Smoke Cloud. This has no effect on the player.

> >

> > Thanks, appreciated. I figured such. I usually have to deal with blindness in those situations, so clarification was needed~

>

> Oh it doesn't blind either unless you use a projectile/whirl finisher in the smoke field. Hope that clears things up!

Yee, I'm aware of that at the very least~

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > > Point is Team Q is easy to match manipulate. Was done before & still is now with duo Q's. So stop asking Anet for 5 team Q's or any of it. At least until ...

> > > @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > Please explain to me how someone is going to match manipulate my team of 5 players whom I know I can trust.

> > > >

> > >

> > > No what your thinking of matchmanipulation is windtrading. I'm talking about stacking 5 man team Q's with friends (over advantage) vs team made of pugs in Rank. In the old day's It got to be such a problem that Anet removed Team Q's from rank. I feel i don't need to explain why. I think your smart anoth to understand why.

> >

> > Don't play ranked with a pug, then.....?

> > I'm trying to understand why ranked needs to be solo q only, or why a separate leaderboard cannot be generated to distinguish players who consistently perform well in unranked or something.

> >

> >

>

> Yes! & we all know the spvp matchmaker is 100% reliable.

I mean, it's not, but that doesn't mean matchups would be significantly worse than they are now, where people can pay someone on your team to throw or someone on your team could tank the team because they aren't dancing to his/her tune.

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> Point is Team Q is easy to match manipulate. Was done before & still is now with duo Q's. So stop asking Anet for 5 team Q's or any of it. At least until ...

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Please explain to me how someone is going to match manipulate my team of 5 players whom I know I can trust.

> >

>

> No what your thinking of matchmanipulation is windtrading. I'm talking about stacking 5 man team Q's with friends (over advantage) vs team made of pugs in Rank. In the old day's It got to be such a problem that Anet removed Team Q's from rank. I feel i don't need to explain why. I think your smart anoth to understand why.

Don't play ranked with a pug, then.....?

I'm trying to understand why ranked needs to be solo q only, or why a separate leaderboard cannot be generated to distinguish players who consistently perform well in unranked or something. I understand that being steamrolled by teams ain't a good feel. but this situation where someone can pay gold to have matches thrown until they get to top pvp titles is objectively worse, and if the mild stress of finding a group online when you are can resolve that, go for it.

> @"sokell.5872" said:

> ArenaNet must disclose the penalty of the reported player.

On the one hand:

Nah. It's not your right to have Anet mail you an ego-stroking letter that the baddie you reported has been punished and that you did a good job.

It's their job to investigate the issue and then take action appropriate to the TOS.

On the other hand:

Having dishonored for 4 months as a visible debuff on my bar would probably ~~make me want to max my dishonored~~ stop me from doing whatever got me dishonored.

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > Then you have Anet ( this part is bitter) who sees the suggestions, IGNORES THEM, and refuses to either test OR talk about the change they come up with, with the people that have sunk over 4k hours into the class. We have seen exactly how that goes. ( /endbitterness)

**This is a significant issue.** When Mirage first was being presented, a heavy amount of mesmers __Screamed__ that Elusive mind was overpowered, and that the mechanic of being unaffected by cc/being able to evade while CC could not go live. Instead, Anet pushed it anyway, then:

Nerfed power core builds.

Nerfed Portal, for some reason.

Added more condi damage to mirage, then took it away again.

Nerfed Confounding suggestions for some reason.

Added Exhaustion to EM even though baseline mirages could still evade without taking the trait, thus making the trait completely useless and not fixing the problem

Nerfed Jaunt, for some reason.

Increased the Exhaustion on EM even though nobody was taking it (why would you? The functionality of that trait is provided baseline.)

Reduced the timeframe on evasion and still not addressing the fact that mirages could dodge while under cc.

Nerfing power on Axes of symmetry even though it wasn't doing anything. (power build nerf again)

Probably some other junk that I didn't see that would also make me squint.

They could have easily fixed that entire train of nonsense by just making it so mirages could not evade while stunned (they have the tech for it since they cannot evade while channeling tranquility, that patch was made specifically for that) unless they take elusive mind. Then the hard to pin down mirages would do less damage since they would take EM, and not infinite horizons (thus theyd have a damage nerf), and the ones that wanted to run infinite horizon would __explode if they didnt play perfectly or got cced.__

Instead __none of that happened.__ It's almost like nobody on the balance team at that time played mirage, and realized maybe it wasn't a good idea to have a class immune to cc also put the only conditions on the game that punish you for moving and acting on you Then when metrics and forum salt got too high, they nerfed everything -but- the problem.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> "OMG its so unfair my build got nerfed because it shared some aspect of this other build that was OP, deserved to be nerfed. But mine wasn't OP and didn't! deserve nerfs"

> Has been the chorus of people playing OP specs since Vanilla before Elite Specializations were ever a thing. "NeRf ThE eLiTe NoT cOrE" is just a really easy scapegoat when there absolutely are OP and unhealthy stuff in every class's core traitlines. OP elite specializations can only reach that status with two strong core trait lines at it's back.

Thaaaat ain't it chief, personally.

If the core spec had heavy counters/counterplay, and then the introduction of an elite spec __suddenly makes the elite overpowered af__ , then all they need to do is nerf the elite, instead of reaching into the classes innards. If it was not a problem with core, it should not be a problem with elite.

Unfortunately, as Solori said, they don't have a habit of doing this.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> The Boosted AF Scrublord's Prayer:

> My build is fine.

> And if you complain you're bad.

> And if you aren't bad you just don't know what you're talking about.

> And if you do know what you're talking about you just need to tweak your build.

> And if you're build is good you're biased against my class.

> And if you aren't biased, you're just bitter about previous nerfs.

> And if you aren't bitter, my build can't be touched or the entire class wouldn't be viable anymore.

> And if would be then what about these OTHER OP builds?

> And if you want changes in other classes too, I deserve to be OP because of this time years ago when I was underpowered.

kek

[#]PraiseJoko

So uh-

Why are people fighting about whether meta builds are better? Meta builds and good off meta builds are two sides of the same coin, and you're proving his point.

> I am talking about the fact that the community is so inclined to THE META that they are toxic and salty to anyone who thinks otherwise not to mention that THE META is no flawless and is counterably by off meta builds that are looked down upon thanks to the communities way of thinking that Meta is is the gods gift to the world

He's right, objectively. However, the off-meta build that can challenge meta builds are usually backed by incredible amounts of practice that most people would rather not do.

Meta builds are important, but so is improvisation.

Meta builds became meta because, in the current game environment, multiple people pieced together that a class could be effective at a certain role if it was played in a certain way. Ideally, that build and playstyle is not set in stone., and other builds that -aren't- meta can -become- meta if they outperform or hard counter the current standing builds. That's how "The meta" works.

That being said, meta builds are usually the easiest, most effective/least exploitable version of whatever class they are built for, and can account for heavy amounts of player error. If you plan to run an off meta build, or a modified meta build, you should be sure that your general/fundamental game skill can compensate for whatever holes your modification create in your kit.

At the end of the day, _none of this kittening matters though._ , especially not bragging about running a build someone built for general use and being good at that build. It's built for carrying, of course you'd be good at it. If you're amazing at some weird-kitten, difficult to play renegade build or something, cheers to you, you'll probably be a hot commodity at Autos.

To get to that point, though, you will need to be fully committed to learning the ins and outs of that class AND every class you can possibly go against. That takes significant time and effort, and payoff is not guaranteed because Anet changes how traits work without warning. With that in mind, it is understandable that people would run meta (since it works), and have general success (since the qualifications of a meta build is how effective you can be as a fighter running that build with just basic knowledge about the class).

TL;DR Run what you want, you silly goose. Just make sure you aren't dragging the team down with your ideology., whether you're for or against meta builds.

If you want to run meta, be aware that meta can and will change, and the person running that weird build might be the next meta.

If you want to run off, be aware that the meta can and will change, and that your build may become meta if it is effective enough/you will need to grind your kitten off to make it viable.

> @"Chilli.2976" said:

> Most people will come to a conclusion straight away and think that it will induce toxicity, but really as if its not bad already?

> If I know I have a Support Guardian and he is silver, I the Scourge will not go full damage as I won't trust him, instead i'll stick to Blood Scourge and expect the healing to not be up to par.

>

> Knowing that I have a silver player on my team, will help/change my play style as opposed to expecting the silver player to win home or far and been disappointed with the outcome.

> I don't get why it was removed in the first place, because a few people complained they got called out?

I wouldn't mind this, but keep in mind that while

> Knowing that I have a silver player on my team, will help/change [your] play style

That will also cause the more salt-encrusted players to __immediately DC or bash specifically the lowest rated player for their mistakes/the teams loss.__

The last thing we need is new players feeling ostracized. I'd rather the angriest person on the team not know which player to focus his/her anger to, especially in pick up groups.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Oneshot maul feels unfair because its telegraph can be hidden by several means, including forage and leaping through a smokescale field, which you cannot rightly interrupt because standing in the field counts as an evade (If I am incorrect about that field, let me know.).

>

> Yeah you're incorrect. The pet gains evasion and incoming condition immunity while standing in Smoke Cloud. This has no effect on the player.

Thanks, appreciated. I figured such. I usually have to deal with blindness in those situations, so clarification was needed~

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> 1. Stop allowing f2p accounts from joining ranked ques, period. No exceptions.

> 2. Once again enable 5 man ques in ranked so that players who want to block their team from mole throws, can protect themselves.

Agreed.

> Oh and INB4: "But I HATES 2 go against the 5 man teams!" Anyone who would respond with this, needs to seriously ask themselves: "Aren't I still going against a 5+ man team when I'm being thrown or win traded against?" Solo/Duo is an illusion and ya'all need to wake up from it.

Doubly so. There was a point where I was like "I don't wanna just get steamrolled by 5mans over and over again" but at this point, if you are any good at the game and have basic social skills/ability to maintain relationships it should be easy to pick up four other players that you know to go do some pvp. Find a guild. It's better than match manipulation.

Either that or make autos more frequent or 24/7.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> You are more likely to get banned from the forums.

>

> Which is sad because players like these ruin the game.

>

> I remember when Anet was aggressive about cheating scum.

>

> They had the Dhuumban in GW1 and they even made at least one dudes character go naked and jump off the high bridge in Divinity's Reach.

>

> I miss THAT Anet.

+1 for this, If y'all wanna unseal Dhuum so he can can send some sweaty players to their grave I'd be fine with that. Hell, have Desmina do it.

No matter how good the game's balance gets, if players can just tilt the matches and get away for free it doesn't matter.

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> Im a Tempest main and I agree with your concept but can't I have a bit of fun and poke at my class?

What is this **HERESY-**

No fun is allowed here.

> @"FyzE.3472" said:

> So if you exaggerate every single statement how is it possible to talk to you? Hope you see what I mean.

To be fair, people are laying out precisely what they think is OP about soulbeast, and being met with LoS memes and "just dodge", so it's understandable that it would break down to absurdity very quickly. Tempest in particular was level headed regarding this pretty often, and at this point she is being sarcastic.

At the risk of parroting, so far, comments boil down to:

Soulbeast opening on you with longbow in the current state of the game feels unfair because of how much access they have to unblockable. This is aggravated by the fact that projectile hate that would reflect or destroy any incoming projectiles now counts as a block, which reduces counterplay to the opener.

Also there's the fact that Longbow says it hits targets at 1500 range but it actually hits for much farther than that, so things like deadeye cannot trade with it.

Oneshot maul feels unfair because its telegraph can be hidden by several means, including forage and leaping through a smokescale field, ~~which you cannot rightly interrupt because standing in the field counts as an evade (If I am incorrect about that field, let me know.). ~~ Corrected by Shadowpass, appreciated.

Everything seems to stem from either a combination or a subset of those issues. If just LoSing or just dodging, while sound advice, was the correct counterplay, we would not have suffered nerfs to Deadeye and Berserker after their respective reworks, since both of those classes followed less intense versions of those mechanics. (namely, high damage from 1500 range, but there is a telegraph and it was nerfed to be blockable, and high damage up close, but there is a telegraph and the damage was nerfed by 25%.) Especially not Deadeye, since by nature of its build it cannot contest points.

Apologies if I am misunderstanding you, but I don't think its fair to take someone's quote and say they exaggerate in every context when it is clear they do not have that tendency very frequently. Not to mention voicing that things might be overtuned seems to be met by similar exaggeration...

> @"Deax.1572" said:

> And by balance it's:

> "Nerf it to the point where it doesn't have a single viable build so i can play what i like to play with less or nothing countering me/being an annoyance. If you do decide to 1v1 me than be prepared to get annihilated coz of mah superior skillz, but if you beat me than it's obvious to anyone that the class/buils is OP and there is nothing under the sun that can defeat it."

> Basically summarizes the whole ordeal with crying in the "pvp community" by low silver - mid gold tier players for years. This isn't new by any means, practically every class has faced this at some point and because of this emotionally filled absurdity i'm sort of glad Anet doesn't take these opinions into consideration for patches.

> In any case it was a nice chuckle, i'll get my back-piece done and for all i care this game mode can die. WvW is superior anyways. :wink: Ta ta!

> @"bOTEB.1573" said:

> Autoattack and skill 1 is not the same, sry... Maybe he was trying to say skill 1 but he used AUTO ;)

> Anyway, I am right you are all wrong - end of story :)

**Gigglesnort**

Who wants to bet gold he vanishes or claims to have been trolling?

Be careful with that. specify exactly who is too high or else we will very quickly return to bunker meta.

Please specify classes that are overperforming and why, so that we dont get blanket reductions and return to what killed ~~GW2 esports. ~~ pvp that time when people were interested.

"The middle" is ideal, yes, but damage output can scale based on how telegraphed/risky it is to deliver.