Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > dolyak stance is a ranger skill for your info, if only warrior had a stance that useful

>

> My bad, meant Signet of Might. Was theorycrafting for ranger at the same time, woops.

>

*squint* rrr okay, they still have to land headbutt in under 6 seconds though.

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> -snip-

> They could make it worse or they could further pigeon hole the class into a playstyle/build Not everyone enjoys.

Agreed. There is a long way to go in terms of playstyles existing that suck the fun out of other players being balanced, and playstyles that= reward skillful play being created and made viable. That kind of balance takes more than metrics. It takes a team that is willing to both play with and against the build and evaluate why it was good, or why it was bad to either play or fight.

That's a tall order given the track record.

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > Just like I want the engineers mini-form to be gone from their traits because having two rounds of that skill; Is ludicrous and I don't know why they are one of the only classes to have something like this? I think its kitten, and alot of other class's can't get out like that when kitten goes bad.

> Brah, they removed auto elixir s from engineer traits a few patches ago. When did you last play? It's now [Elixir E](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_E "Elixir E").

Case in point that we probably shouldn't be trusted to do it. TBH the forums are going to cry regardless, even if the problem no longer exists. I bet if the dev team did mock spvp matches with the builds that have high winrates, and ones that had low winrates or were unused regularly, there would probably be more targeted tweaking.

> **Dolyak Stance** > Headbutt > Berserk > Ark Divider. Having a ability that can reset the most damaging part of this combo is just bad design especially if it can be reused instantly.

?

Did you mean Balanced Stance? If so, headbutt is pretty dodgeable/blockable as well.

> **Yes, it damages multiple people if they are close enough, but that damage isnt the same since GS 2 bounces between targets. Sadly Arc Divider is doing the same damage regardless of how many players there are**. Also the number of people this applies to does make a huge difference, see elementalist for example. A class with a weapon designed around high damage AoE, we all know how that story ends.

That's a weird arguing point to make.

"Arc divider in its current damage state is busted because a warrior can do the same amount of damage to players per burst regardless of number" without consideration given to the fact that the move is highly telegraphed, or that the warrior is highly visible and must put themselves within 240r of the other players _at the same time_ to hit all of them with all three hits of the burst. The same reason you didn't consider the damage implications of Mesmer GS burst as being "the same" should be applied here, because that is unlikely to happen unless all players involved are actively working for that outcome. There is a range limitation.

> Not to say that I'm not upset about such combos in this game in the first place. But this thread is made for Arc Divider in general so there was no need for me to voice my opinion on them. Both are toxic but one is just shining way more then the other currently.

The point I am trying to make is that heavy combos that burn all of your utilities exist in several more concentrated/effective forms across the pvp sphere, and of those a reasonable amount of them can be hidden in stealth. Berserker burst is shining because its new, but we have had to deal with nonsense like this for much longer on far less visual indication. Glad to see that you consider them toxic though, I look forward to your input on the chronoburst and maulburst threads to come if it is decided that big damage with increased fragility and a big telegraph is unfair for the game, because big damage with no telegraph is objectively worse and yet somehow thieves seem to be the only ones being balanced with that idea in mind.

> Zerker one shot doesn't necessarily need to apply the heal as its 1st 2 hits are enough to down even the most squishiest classes when its being pushed out. Not to mention this thing hits heavy and fast even if you are a dodge away while being used on a class that **trades 0 risk for high reward.**

Zerker is trading:

300 toughness baseline

Access to last stand and traited endure pain if they want to maximize for Arc Divider

Access to stability (The patch that reworked zerker significantly nerfed the stability it could get and makes it more fragile)

Access to its level 1 and 2 bursts, as well as limited access to its level 3 and all of the trait synergy that comes with that.

That's not zero. Zerkers are significantly more fragile than they were before, less sustained, and less resistant to interrupts. I refuse to accept that being called even -light- risk.

There is no reason why, if you see a zerker coming (and you will, because they cannot stealth) you cannot evaluate whether you can evade arc divider at that time and, if so, evade it. One dodge covers two hits. There is a visual indication if the skill will be unblockable.

If you want to nerf Signet of Fury so warriors can't open with it, or nerf it's interaction with sundering burst, fine. Like I said, I'm against big damage with no warning. But don't touch any other damage coefficients on it. If a zerker gets to 30 adrenaline and you're a light armor and within 240 range of them, you deserve that damage if you aren't expecting to dodge, interrupt, or invuin.

I believe that if there is enough warning that's something is going to hit you for 3 hits that equal all your HP if you don't quit hugging it, then you deserve the damage if you keep hugging it, especially if the warrior has to be in combat with you first.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> Pettiness.....Hypocrisy.....Short sighted are the only words that come to mind whenever I read the GW2 pvp forum, it's truly a shame that the majority of players can't see anything outside the boundaries of their own ego.

True enough. Admittedly I have a penchant for being petty at times here as well. Somewhere down the line though, I realized I needed to at least touch the other classes I was having issues with to make sure that if I had a problem I didn't end up advocating what was essentially the deletion of the class, but obviously there will be people that don't realize that and just don't want to learn the matchup.

Ofcourse, as @"Zenix.6198" said there are -still- overperformers. The majority of forum goers are drama llamas but that doesn't mean that the game itself is completely balanced.

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > 

> > 

> > News flash, mesmer one shot 28k hp warrior in 0.5 second in stealth

>

> Comparing a 1 person damaging combo to a 1 button press ability that can down a group. Let that sink in.

The assertion that GS burst only targets one person for ridiculous damage and that somehow shields it from criticism is faulty. It still comes from stealth and has very little telegraph. You're still bursting someone for all their HP in a combo they will down from if they do not dodge. Whether it is one person or 5 makes no difference.

The assertion that it is a one button press vs a combo is also faulty. If you want to be upset about the damage being dealt from the zerk combo. in such a short span of time, then you should also be equally upset about the instagib mesmer combo, as well as the other combos that culminate in moves being effectively oneshots, like oneshot maul.

Those assertions are also both flat wrong. The mesmer burst combo can affect multiple targets, they just have to be -really- close together for them to all down. The Zerker oneshot build utilizes several utilities and its heal, so it is a combo as well.

So, I think its fair game. Barring the fury sigil and sundering burst synergies I am willing to concede on being too strong, if you wanna come after damage lets go after damage.

Rampage does need a nerf, but headshot cannot be realistically evaded on reaction to and should not be a main damage dealer in tandem with pulm.

Anything you cannot react to evasively should not do significant damage.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> **1. How long it should take for a glass build to kill another glass build?

Full glass? (Zerker) 5 - 10 seconds if one player gets the drop. 10 - 15 seconds if both aware. Off-glass? (Mara/Demo) 10-15 seconds on the drop, 15-20 seconds both aware.

> 2. How long it should take for a bunker build and a glass build to come to a clear victor?

20-30 seconds.

> 3. How long should it take two [Jack-Of-All-Stats](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JackOfAllStats "Jack-Of-All-Stats") builds to result in a clear victor?

20 -30 seconds.

> 4. How long should it take 2 completely defensively orientated builds to result in a clear victor?

30 - 45. Potential for infinite/stalemate here, depending on your consideration of (completely defensive)

> 5. Please post YouTube links of competitive games that exhibit the TTK you want to see in GW2.**

Later.

This response assumes that the players involved:

Are fighting on a point

Are equal skill levels

Will not disengage even if losing.

Are not using preservation skills that passively proc and grant either explicit or effective invuln EXCEPT for flipover skills (endure pain, stealth, stone signet, traits that grant invuln are not being used, stealth for the sole purpose of proccing things like DJ or Backstab are). Skills that regen hp passively are assumed to be in use.

Are playing 1v1 and not making use of LoS.

This only applies to Structured PVP. In WVW I'm [completely fine with stuff like this happening.](

And that "Kill" means "Down".

There are many alternative factors that could alter this timeline, so if they go over their boundaries it is fine. No player should have a TTK < 5 seconds, And no player should have a TTK > 1.5 minutes or effective immortality , ideally. There is one exception made if both players completely focus on surviving at all costs. Then the match should be infinite.

No class should, on a single hit, take greater than their entire HP bar in damage, even if the classes are both glass. This goes doubly for skills with no telegraph or hideable telegraphs, and combos of skill buffs that culminate in one attack doing significant damage, or damage packets being so close together such that they cannot be evaded separately. (Zerker Arms/Strength/Zerker spin2win build, Oneshot maul, backstab with assassin signet on a glass thief, Chronobuster burst) are counted as one single attack.

No class should, in their rotation, have enough invulnerability, blocks, or damage mitigation to be able to heal to full vs glass or off glass builds without needing to disengage. Vs Jack-of-all-stats, They should have a moderate advantage but not an insurmountable one.

Edit:

Updated bunker matchup results.

/shrug

At this point I'm not even expecting this to be dealt with in a way that doesnt make it harder for me to play zerker now than it was before the rework, but let Anet do what they feel is correct to address it. If it goes beyond a nerf to Sundering burst and Fury signet to prevent the vuln stacking, then Anet is conveying that big damage with a big telegraph that cannot be hidden is nerfworthy. IF that turns out to be the case, then Oneshot Maul, Chronoburst, D Judgment and all the other oneshot builds should be evaluated by the same metric.

Make no mistake, it -does- need nerfs. The excess damage and opener can easily be mitigated by tweaking one utility (Signet of Fury) and Zerker's interaction with one trait (Sundering Burst). But if we're nerfing because a warrior turning red isnt enough of a visual indication that you need to run or dodge, that's fine too.

Then we can talk about stealth bursts.

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> I'm not bitter? Wondering why you take responses as personal attacks though...

I'm not taking it as a personal attack. I am just reading 'general bitterness' in your tone. There's plenty to be bitter about, I just wanted to make sure that I straightened out any implication that may be hiding there. If it isn't there then I apologize.~

As for-

> the aftermath of the vigor, sword, and illusion trait line nerfs

I can't bat for everything 24/7. /shrug But as I said, I am generally against gutting core mechanics for elite overperformance.

>But that is the path of least resistance for Anet. It shouldn't be done. But it will be. And that's one of the reasons this is no longer my main game.

jumping from "weak" to "weak, but useful" and then back to "weak" in two balance patches doesn't seem to be par for the course for Anet, but I am willing to amend that expectation. Time will tell~

> @"Edge.8724" said:

> > @"Velimere.7685" said:

> > 

> > Arc Divider is fine, guys!

>

> How is it possible to hit such big numbers? I never did that sort of thing with any class, in any build, in any game mode. My most powerful hit in pvp was probably the famous Spellbreaker dagger 3+4 combo hitting for 16 000 dammage with 25 stacks of might, 3 stacks of berserker's power and demolisher's amulet.

>

> Everytime I see such ridiculous numbers, it's impossible for me to find this serious.

run arms, discipline, berserker with burst precision berserker amulet and blood reckoning.

use fury signet -> frenzy -> berserk mode -> arcdivider -> blood reckoning -> arc divider.

you burn your heal and utilities in exchange for 10ishk crits per hit. if you use blood reckoning fast enough the damage from the second arc divider will add its damage to the golem, making it look like 60k.

Its real, just misrepresented. it's the zerk version of oneshot maul except it requires you to burn your heal and two utilities.

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > A lot of classes have had core mechanics nerfed for an elite specs over performance. Are we going to compensate the other classes as well?

> >

> > You say that like I have been for nerfing core traits to fix the overperformance of elites at any point.

> >

>

> No? Though I dont think you ever were worried about the nerfs to others either.

[uh. ](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/652048#Comment_652048 "Uh. ")

[yeah.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/767262#Comment_767262"")

[ I was. ](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/775726#Comment_775726 " ")

Even with the portal nerf and confounding suggestions. You were there too actually~

I play every class in the game to some degree, I am not for my spec or build getting weaker to fix one that is being abused in any case. It's obnoxious and pointless to have to rebuild even when you are deliberately avoiding the cheese.

But I mean, if being bitter helps you feel better, maybe be bitter at someone that hasn't been saying "nerf from the top down" consistently. I'm aggressive against mesmers because, being a warrior main, I tend to get cheesed by them -a lot-, but if nothing else I try to be reasonable.

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> A lot of classes have had core mechanics nerfed for an elite specs over performance. Are we going to compensate the other classes as well?

You say that like I have been for nerfing core traits to fix the overperformance of elites at any point.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > >

> > > hahahahaha ..plz deny it.

> >

> > Woodstock didn't even attempt to dodge it, because they weren't expecting it.

> > There's a huge difference between being unable to do something and being able to do something, and not doing it.

> > Granted, Berserker shouldn't be an opener, (And nerfing fury signet would fix that), but it's hit packets are not bugged. if you press V those hits will miss. I don't know what else to tell you.

>

> No one skill should be critting for 20k plus. It doesn't matter the tell. It doesn't matter how glassy one builds. That level of damage should be impossible in PvP.

Then Anet needs to give zerkers their sustain back when they do rebalancing. I'm not taking a loss of my core mechanic, adrenaline tied traits and a 300 toughness for no reason.

Either make Primal bursts not count as bursts internally so they dont proc the obscene vuln stacks and additional benefits from the Arms line/ Nerf Fury signet so zerkers cant open with berserk mode, or revert the change completely and put all the sustain back. Because a flat damage nerf will make zerker even worse than it was and it was already pretty unviable.

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

>

> hahahahaha ..plz deny it.

Woodstock didn't even attempt to dodge it, because they weren't expecting it.

There's a huge difference between being unable to do something and being able to do something, and not doing it.

Granted, Berserker shouldn't be an opener, (And nerfing fury signet would fix that), but it's hit packets are not bugged. if you press V those hits will miss. I don't know what else to tell you.

> @"Sylanna.1947" said:

> When every single thief in pvp is running the same elite, it's time to do something about this ridiculous god-mode skill. And the fact that improv can instantly recharge it is just BS. I don't know how there aren't more complaints about it since it's been over-tuned for so long.. I guess there were bigger fish to fry?

They're all running dagger storm because it's the only defense they have that can't be easily AOE stripped (and it can still be stripped by wards/lines/spears/tethers) . If you wanna give thieves some more defense so they can skirmish with you on point I'd gladly take basi venom.

I'm fine with it not being allowed to contest the point while being channeled though. That makes sense.

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> Signet of Fury > Arc Divider > Blood Reckoning > Arc Divider > Escape if you miss **in sPvP**

>

> Is the most boring playstyle Berserker ever had to be in. Feint/fake-outs are discouraged and it's just pathetic. This rework forced Berserker to be a 4 button class when Berserker was A LOT more complex than Spellbreaker and Core in terms of fake-outs.

>

> This rework should be reverted (i.e. Revert Arc Divider) not because it kills fail players like Vieux P, but because Arc Divider could get things like 100% crit on burst on Arms for example when Rifle needs the 100% crit chance on burst, if you were to look at ANET's history of nerfing things. Legit, ANET could potentially leave this spec unviable because it kills fail players like Vieux P or it could make it disgustingly broken like for example giving it baseline unblockables making it not need signet of might vs. certain comps for an "aggressive playstyle." And that wouldn't be the only reason why this spec is in a potentially catastrophic state.

Or they could nerf signet of fury by making the adren gain 15 instead of 30, and collapse every single cheese berserker build immediately, and be done with it.

They're not going to give it baseline unblockable. People would riot. This whole thread started because a mirage main couldnt be arsed to press V at the right time and thought it was a glitch that he died because of it. If it gets any better than it is right now, the forums will flood with spin2win memes.

Leave it brittle. It is slightly better than it was before with the rework, and eventually people will figure out the warrior has less stab the more they lean into the cheese build.

Agreed that it's simpler. I'm not used to it. There's probably a way to make it more exciting/complex though.

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Velimere.7685" said:

> > Arc Divider is fine, guys!

>

> Please post the build, I just want to try it out.

The build is partially above your post. Just pick traits that add the most damage.

Its probably Strength, discipline, and zerker line, with bloody roar, burst mastery, and zerker's power all selected as grandmasters. He's probably using signet of fury instead of frenzy to immediately get the adrenaline needed to burst.

It's incredibly misleading as a screenshot, because you need to connect with six hits for that damage, and use every single utility on your bar including your heal. And you can be stunned or dazed at any point during the rotation.

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> I'm not singling out Berserker here. I meant any spec should not be able to hit that hard in _one single hit_. Nerf or not, I guess time will tell how it plays out.

> _Any sort of extremely high damage output_ is not good for the game. Same goes for extremely tanky builds too. What's the point? Let's get it in the middle where everyone can enjoy the game.

Arc Divider isn't a single hit though.

I agree with the core of this premise, but with the addition that the high damage output either be **untelegraphed or frequently castable.**

I italicized the portions I take issue with. Soulbeast maul from stealth? needs looking at. Mesmer burst from stealth? needs looking at.

A warrior spending time in a fight, perpetually visible, with a visible animation before he gets access to his burst damage and then the burst damage itself spread over 3 packets? Still an issue, but not as much as the above two. There's a clear indication you should start dodging/leaving or die. I am fine with high damage __as long as the move has a telegraph.__ That's why I don't complain about Death's Judgement.

You can get hit with the first or last cleave and be fine if you're not a glass thief, even if the warrior has poured everything in terms of utilities into that burst. Going to look into this more. The fact that they nerfed eternal champion and made it so there is no stab on entry to zerk mode probably means it can even be interrupted with trivial things, like steal/headshot/any daze/any ranged cc.

One thing is certain though. If the direction Anet is taking is to give every spec a really strong/carry mechanic/synergy, fine. But if you're going to yank arc divider's damage because it's too high for what it provides, soulbeast, herald, holosmith, deadeye and the gimmick chronoburst need addressing at the same time or close behind.

At this point the only thing Anet needs to do is buff ele and (maybe, I need to look at weakness synergy)daredevil a bit more, tbh. They're the last underperforming specs at this time.

Zdragon did some additional testing, and it looks like to get the 60k damage that is posted in that picture. you have to:

1. Run full glass (zerk amulet)

2. Run signet of might

3. Run frenzy

4. Run Blood Reckoning.

5. Run either zerker stance or land headbutt.

6. Burst, then immediately use Blood Reckoning and burst again after popping signet of might and frenzy.

.... so you burn your heal, all your cooldowns, on a glass build, for 60k damage, evadable, over close range.

This is literally the zerker variant of the chrono oneshot build or soulbeast 27k maul build with absolutely NO sustain AND a telegraph, over multiple attacks that are clearly visible.

Please provide context before trying to pass arc divider off as broken with a cropped screenshot. it makes you look like a kittenhole.

I've changed my mind on this. If you want to pull this from the game at this point, you need to pull chrono instaburst, Deadeye instaburst, Soulbeast instaburst and any other class that can shovel all of their utilities for one or two attacks that do ridiculous damage.

[i also went and did an arc divider on a glassy Zerker on one rotation. It isnt that bad. would be a smidge more if you ran peak performance and burst mastery, but still glass.](https://imgur.com/a/Lsxxges "https://imgur.com/a/Lsxxges")

if you're just base aware you can avoid two strikes, expecting it all three.

[Here, I went and labbed it. you can avoid the whole thing with one dodge and a blink~ ](https://imgur.com/a/UzGF2pr "https://imgur.com/a/UzGF2pr ")

You can also blurred frenzy since you can use skills while dodging, scepter block the last hit if the warrior hasnt popped might signet, blind them if they havent used zerker stance, illusionary wave them out of the last hit, etc.

Its not bugged.

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> Yeah makes no sense to use dodge+f4 just to cover it all. Redundant & ridiculous.

????

Dodge skills that deal damage to you or die?

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> Ok i think i got why evade don't work. On my mesmer, f4 & eveades seems not anoth time to evade Arc divider. I think thief evades don't have that problem. Not tested yet, can't confirm. I can't record it cuz i dont have OBS installed. To much lag.

If that's the case, you need to relab your dodge timing. As of March 2019, mirages now dodge for the same amount of time as other professions. (0.75 seconds.)

As you said, you always have distortion on F4 to cover any timing flubs.

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > they are less damage and higher CD thou

> > it is a step in the right direct they need more time to remove or rework them all

>

> It's a good thing I'm sure a game won't come out in the NEXT 7 years that actually does this before anet does. . .

Calm down my guy

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> besides dodges & evades there not tanky like warrior-

The raw numbers say that warriors on the surface are tankier of course, but you must also consider evade/immune/interrupt/block potential when you are weighing sustain. Thief and mesmer both have those in spades.

Full glass thief, however, is less viable than mes because of its abysmally small health pool.

>Atm warrior can dish it out and sustain condis as well dps when well played.

Both mesmer and thief can do this. They are significantly more brittle than spellbreakers and soulbeasts atm.

>But i'm still having issues with the attacks going threw evades & walls & dodges.

The attack will go through walls because it is a cleave, not a projectile.

We can look into the attack going through your evades. Would you mind linking a video of this happening?

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

>Can you say that for mesmers-

yes.

>& thieves?

no.

> & yet still remains tanky & sustainably as hell.

Also no false premises. zerker isn't "sustainy" at all. It was glass before and it's even more glass now because they yanked adrenal health and 300 toughness out of it baseline, and if they nerf rampage even more so.