Azure The Heartless.3261

Call this critique, complaints, or whatever.

I have been playing zerker pretty regularly before the patch. I usually spend my downtime playing unorthodox or unviable builds to see if I can coax them into some kind of workability, and have been having pretty decent success with power zerker. however, to do so I've always had to very meticulously manage my cooldowns, especially my burst, in order to regularly win versus some classes, and some matchups were just downright losses.

With the new patch and the zerker rework, I find that the new playstyle is (obviously) a stark departure from my old one, and that Arc Divider in particular now handles matchup elements that originally were bad against berserker and core war.

On the one hand, I am __significantly__ disappointed by the loss of toughness, stability, burst lvl 1-3 and its traits being unproccable until zerk, and the way all of that has been shoved into a short range aoe.

On the other hand, people that don't manage to exploit that sudden sustain drop (of which zerker had very little to begin with mind you) go down __much faster than I am accustomed to.__ Whether that is because they are not accustomed to dodging arc or not remains to be seen but-

I can't remember the last time I've seen a move on zerker actually hit for a significant amount of damage without needing to land a stun prior. it feels... incorrect, to put it mildly. At the same time, if it gets its damage reduced to the point that players are allowed to live through facetanking all of the hits on a non tank amulet, zerker would at that point be significantly worse than it was originally, because it will have no significant damage output __until__ adren is full, at which point damage output will become mediocre in exchange for additional fragility.

That being said, I see the latter development to be par for the course here.

So I'm calling this right now, arc divider is gonna take a moderate-heavy damage nerf to placate the people that can't dodge big red circles, and then it will be significantly worse than it was before because, in addition to mediocre damage, it will have lost access to burst skills and the traits that proc on burst, a significant amount of stability, toughness, and adrenaline.

I may be at this time poisoned by cynicism after playing zerker while it was unviable, but I just feel like I needed to shout that into the void of the forums. I'm not used to having a single button that does so much, and I also am concerned that if it gets removed I will have to struggle even harder than previously just to survive vs any class.

If you're going to do anything to Arc Divider, Arenanet devs, please consider that you also removed __all__ of the sustain from berserker and put some of that back when you do.

K Thanks~

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> all I hear is qq this qq that-

Rrrright.

Thanks for letting us know you can't be reasoned with.

> @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> I see this as three separate issues: evade, block (without signet of might) and damage. We can argue damage and berserker principles/viability all day long but the other two issues would be bugs worthy of hotfix if they are true.

>

> I'd expect it's easy to test whether it can't be evaded, or can't be blocked without signet of might (yes I'm aware of the utility). I have no GW2 this week but if a pair of helpful people test this out they can literally save so much hassle on this thread.

>

> PS what I'm getting at is video would help immensely

Fine~

If a video isn't up of someone being able to dodge arc divider by tonight, I will go make it myself.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

>**chances are if you're using steal as an engage you're playing teef wrong-**

>I don't even play the class

You not playing the class is pretty obvious actually. And yet somehow it is privileged for the thieves to complain about suddenly losing half the range on one of their tools, but not for someone who doesn't play the class even marginally to scold them for doing so?

Steal can be used up obstacles and in conjunction with moves other than D/P. This impacts more than you know.

I like the premise of having more obstacles around the points on eternal coli. Itll take a little pressure off my squishy thief.

It begins.

I still like the map. I'd definitely play it over Skyhammer /Spirit watch if those three came up on the roulette together, even if it was my 500th time.

> @"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

> I said this before: Mirage Cloak is already a trade-off. You can cast skills while evading but you can't backpedal or strafe nearly as well as a normal dodge.

I'm just quoting this for reference so that whenever I need a moodlifter I can come see where "inability to backpedal" was deemed a proper tradeoff for being able to cast channels while dodging or evading while being cced.

I had a very honest laugh at that. Thank you, even if you meant it.

> @"Sanity Obscure.6054" said:

> When people are still calling for mirage nerfs.

It's probably muscle memory at this point.

*Bitter chuckle*

Haha, yeah. Super great change halving steal range.

> @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> I'm calling Poe's on this one.

shhh

just play the game

SPEED

RUNES

Myguy.

Dude, don't force yourself to play pvp. It's filled with manchildren who watched a youtube video once and now think they're entitled to win every skirmish they come across.

Disconnect, get a group of friends that arent kittenholes, make a guild, play unranked with that guild and go chill out in pve. PVP only has titles to offer, and nobody really respects those because a good portion of the game cheated to get the first couple batches.

Don't let the poison in here ruin you pls

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> As far as I can tell, only **one** meta build is getting nerfed, chrono bunker (two if you count condi mirage). How come there is such a distinct lack of nerfs?

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I was hands down one of the most vocal advocates for unnerfing portal when [the nerf initially happened](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62918/how-are-we-supposed-to-use-portal-now/p1 "the nerf initially happened"). I also [voiced support](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/873695/#Comment_873695 "voiced support") for unnerfing it in Falndre's thread about bringing portal back. I really don't get were this is coming from.

>

> Steal nerf is just funny because its so left field and thief isn't exactly dominating right now. It's just really left field is all.

There's several other overperforming meta builds right now to be sure, but of them all chronobunk/mirage have been overtuned the longest, with soulbeast a close second.

Portal nerf sucked, Steal nerf is par for the course. Arenanet has a habit of just shanking thieves for no clear reason, labeled as for the sake of balance. They had exhaustion specially made for them and were beaten upside the head with it just out of the blue when someone in the balance team thought unhindered was too strong, and that thieves needed to have their endurance disabled if someone clipped them with cripple, even though Don't Stop in acrobatics does the same thing and thief's best heal removes the effects that would cause exhaustion by default. Then there was the sudden sword thief nerf. Before that it was the "we feel thieves shouldnt do damage now" phase, where people quit their thieves because there was no reason to use them in pvp. Before that it was the sudden removal of ricochet,

I was surprised for the former, but not for the latter. at this point I'm used to just playing harder every patch on thief.

Agreed, rampage is stupid atm.

If you want to keep the stability, you need a higher cd, less CC, or lower damage. Right now its a press to kill button.

Either a higher CD or less damage on the moveset would be preferable.

No.

They still need to be able to defend themselves from attacks.

We can certainly look into tradeoffs for being able to baseline evade while stunned though. How about we sap their vitality a bit like they're doing with zerker and toughness?

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> This just in:

>

> ThE kNoWlEdGeAbLe CoMmUnITy declares condi-Mirage still Anet's favorite child.

>

> In other news, truly overpowered specs continue avoiding proper nerfs.

I mean, at some point people need to stop pushing for nerfing mirage.

....right?

Alright~ Just going to pull a few things out in order of how I wanna address them

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> What you have done is looked at the current steal skills, then worked backwards in attempt to rationalize their existence.

Yeah, I did. It's a better line of reasoning than the assertion that a thief stolen skill should require the thief to put him or herself in a disadvantaged state in order to utilize it to begin with.

> I think it is more likely that they just created a bunch of thematically interesting bundles, then made them into stolen skills corresponding to the respective classes-

See, you did it too. I just think that the dev team actually tried to balance the skills around what would be useful vs the classes being fought.

> **Whirling axe** is a reflect which is the opposite of a warrior counter. **Throw Gunk** has little to do with engi, or countering engi, at all.

Let's not ignore that thieves have access to smoke fields and can spin with that axe in them to blind warriors, which disables them.

Throw gunk creates an ethereal field when you leap in it, which gives you chaos armor. Engineers and their derivatives have very little cleanse in general, and hitting chaos armor gives your opponent potentially weakness and confusion.

>Mace head crack is not an obvious fit for guardian, and daze is not a classic counter to guardian

Sure it is. Before the onset of Firebrand, guardians had limited access to stability. if you dazed a guard while aegis was down, he had to either burn JI or purity to respond to you within 3 seconds.

>What I previously talked about is backed up by the fact that you were highly selective in your "observations".

I wouldn't call considering the applications of using fields and finishers that are easily accessible to thief in tandem with the skills they acquire while stealing being "highly selective." Those options should also be considered when you are trying to establish the intent or power of a particular skill. Whether or not whirling axe or throw gunk on their own, without any synergy, follow a standard design pattern or not is irrelevant. They can be easily used in ways that allow them to counter the class they are stolen from.

> Your plasma example isn't even very sound; If the mesmer stolen skill was made to counter cc like power lock, it might have been a stunbreak or a stability skill (which doesn't make much sense as thief is already less negatively affected by mesmer dazes than most/all other professions). If it was made to deal with clones, it might have been an aoe attack. But it isn't.

It gives you stability. It also gives you aegis, protection, might and fury, which lets you as a thief easily cleave or AOE clones yourself with sword, or shortbow.

> Furthermore, plasma is better versus all classes, not particularly just against mesmer.

That doesn't matter. If you steal plasma from a mesmer, you have a mesmer enemy. Whether or not it is -only- good against them or not doesn't really bear any significance.

> What is obvious bad design is having one of the stolen skills be stackable in complete safety behind LoS, in stealth, or ooc, while also being the far strongest stolen skill.

We will have to agree to disagree about this.

> I like how you assume I want some 2 second cast 130 range 500 damage stab as the new steal skill.

You heavily implied it by essentially going, in your opening statement, that consume plasma is far out of line for stolen skills by calling attention to the fact that the other stolen skills are either telegraphed or weak on their own. I feel like it was proper to assume this is what you wanted. Glad to see we agree on distortion though.

>The complete opposite is true, thief is generally strong versus mesmer even without plasma due to the mechanics of these classes (especially historically, which should be kept in mind considering that plasma was in the game at release).

Conceded, but that doesn't mean that plasma should be weaker. The stolen skills provide tools for exploiting the mesmer's weaknesses, and unfortunately mesmers have mechanics that prevent direct attacking of those weaknesses.

> 1. Mesmer being decent at boons is a more recent endeavor.

Whether mesmer became decent at boon stacking or not recently is irrelevant. They have thematically been centered around generating boons as part of their combat. Chaos line in particular proves this, but there are other examples that tie Mesmers with boon generation.

> 2. The most sought-after boons that mesmer provides are alacrity and quickness, which are more of a speciality of chronomancer rather than mesmer.

I don't see how that's a problem compounded by consume plasma. Explain?

> 3. Mesmer (more specifically chaos) is largely designed with random boons, except for two particular traits; chaotic dampening and bountiful dissillusionment (which has has been nerfed multiple times and none of these were in the game at release). I invite you to have a look at mesmer utilities and see how many boons they give.

I mean... It's still focused around boon generation. Whether or not they are random thematically for the mesmer makes no difference to me. They shouldn't be random for the thief, because stolen skills shouldn't have a chance of just being useless or unpredictable. It's a skill acquired for the express purpose of helping fight a particular class.

> Consume plasma would fit at least as good for engineer, and I would also argue that ele+engi+ranger+guard+war all have a boon-focus that rivals or exceeds that of the mesmer.

Sure, __now__. But-

> I don't care that much about the theme myself, but I know some do. I have considered and talked about that suggestion previously, but I prefer to leave the design to anet as they generally choose their own designs anyway. You are not going to be able to rip boons from plasma reliably vs a thief (especially sd). And you can try to make it sound weaker if you wish, that is up to you mon ami.

Noted.

If you don't care about the theme that much then I don't know why we're arguing about this. Still think plasma is fine. gameplay wise. It provides pressure and enough tools to interrupt the mesmers rotation for 10 seconds on damaging boons per chug. That's hardly overpowered imo, especially considering the opponent in question can react to any visible damage following cc with very little focus on having to predict the cc being incoming. I'm not saying its weak at all. My assertion is strong classes getting difficult situations like this one in particular is welcomed.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> Stolen skills are either attacks that need to hit a target (and either melee or slow cast), or defense with limited useability and cooldown like healing seed. **This means that the thief must take risks and be think about it in order to get value out of the 2nd stolen still from improv, by going in melee range or doing a slow channel for instance. **

Faulty premise. The whole point of thief stolen skills isn't to give them a move that slows them down and/or make them more target-able. No skill should be designed to make a character more vulnerable for its own sake.

Thief stolen skills all have a particular mechanic that helps them interrupt the rotation of the class the skill was stolen from, by introducing an element that class is often weak to.

For example:

Whirling Axe in a smoke field pelts warriors with blind. Leaping in an ethereal field puts condis on engies. Skull Fear puts CC on necros. Mace crack puts CC on guardians.

Icicle Shard puts chill on elementalists, which could ruin them if used immediately when they swap out of water. Blinding tuft allows you to stealth attack a thief, which can be devastating to them because of their low hp pool, etc.

Consume plasma granting all boons helps the thief survive instant cast, untelegraphed cc like power lock that a mesmer may unload on them, and also makes their strikes do more damage to the mesmer themselves.

Giving the lowest hp class in the game a skill that requires them to be in melee range or telegraph a weak-damage move to a class (because, I assume that is how you feel plasma needs to be brought in line) that has several avenues to negate those options is obvious poor design. (that's why thieves own stolen skill doesn't require this). The skill grants all boons to the thief because there's no reliable telegraph-able skill that will give them an edge over mesmer without also granting them something protective, like stab or aegis, and a thief loaded with boons can force the mesmer to be defensive or protect the thief against being otherwise interrupted.

It shifts the pressure dynamic as it is now, and that's fine tbh. Let mesmers(and its derivatives) fear something.

> Even thematically, why does mesmer stolen skill give boons while guardian's gives daze and engi's gives etheral field? That seems backwards.

Mesmer is designed thematically around boon generation (lyssa, inspiration, etc.), so it is thematic for the thief to gain access to boons by pilfering them. Grabbing some corrosive material from an engineer or a mace from a guardian are thematic as well.

If you think it isn't thematic enough, you could just suggest that consume plasma _give thieves distortion for several seconds instead_.

I'm fine with _having distortion_ vs a mesmer if a stack of corruptable/rippable boons, the most protective of which last less than 3 seconds, is too much.

_go on._

_suggest plasma be nerfed and give us distortion instead for 4 seconds a pop._

_it's t h e m a t i c._

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> mes is balanced? so going from the best class in the game to the worst class in the game (worse than ele) in a year makes it balanced? ok

*Silently files nails*

People won't take you seriously if you just keep spouting assertions that egregious. Mesmer/its derivatives have never at any point been the worst class in the game for the entirety of GW2. The furthest they've fallen is out of meta, and even then they were still viable picks, just not __the best__ ones.

>@"The main topic of the thread"

Right now its scrapper IMO, but Spellbreaker, Holosmith, Boonbeast and Scepter on Mes all need a bit of tuning on some key skills. I've seen a couple of heralds chewing through anything nonbunker too. They might also need a look. For SB and Herald though, their alternative specs need to have their viability rebalanced (Zerker and Renegade respectively.)

But yeah. lets not do bunker meta, then we can work on the heavy bursts.

Alternatively, we could just __break everything.__ You have an overperforming/strong spec on everything but Elementalists and Thieves. Bust two more classes and we'll all be too busy calling each other OP/protecting our own OP things to actually point solid fingers at anything in particular.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > 1 shot meta is the worst. at least in bunker meta you have time to press skills, and random brain deads cant creep out of the wood work and land some cheap instakill.

>

> Of course, there is no middleground between tanking indefinitely and oneshotting.

*Sip tea*

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> Id much rather have the high risk play than just stalemate fights forever with tanks builds that don't even need to dodge.

As I mentioned before, both 27k burst and tank builds are bad for the game. Dislike of one does not immediately imply acceptance of the other. Both of those extremes lead to unhealthy combat, and we should be aiming for build design that caps damage somewhere closer to the middle.

Bunker meta is garbage, but there's still no rational excuse for doing *all of a target's hp in damage in one single, low cd move*, optionally from stealth, without needing to engage the enemy beforehand, all the while still having utility slots and boons that lend themselves to escape or reset if the burst doesn't land. If thieves can't do it, glassy as they are, then soulbeasts shouldn't be able to either. If the old 20k, no damage ramp-up backstab and unblockable Death's Judgment were bad for the game, then 27k potentially unblockable maul is bad for the game too.

We've been here before with Dragonhunter trap stackers, thieves, zerker warriors running headbutt and the like. No class in the game should get a free pass to nuke your HP without a telegraph. No class.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > If a move can hit you for **all your HP**, even when you are not playing glass, without:

> >

> > having a clearly visible telegraph of at least a couple of seconds

> >

> > or

> >

> > while also having the means to HIDE the telegraph without significant windup

> >

> > The burst is too strong.

> >

> > There is no rational explanation for having a combination of buffs that can lead to you doing 27k damage to a single target in pvp in one move, especially if that move can be hidden by stealth.

> >

>

> One thing I find particularly grating is the argument "If you do this your so glassy and can get one shot back just as easily."

>

> Literally every profession can meme around on a Berserker's amulet aiming for as huge of crits as possible. Only one gets anywhere near this level of damage.

And, of those classes that can meme around on those amulets, the one that gets near that level of damage has precastable buffs that can make their moves unblockable and also has access to multiple stacks of stability and protection. So not only can they hit 27k while being glass, they can also likely sustain a bit of damage and get away without dying if anything goes south. So saying "you can die just as easily" is a bit of misinformation.

We nerfed thieves for 25k backstabs repeatedly. Don't know why the noted class gets a free pass on that front.

Not that any of those particular facets of the class are bad in and of themselves. The stacking of buffs has just created an issue.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> 5. Consider that Spellbreaker is just a hard counter that maybe you should be avoiding. If you struggle dealing with them, just leave the node as soon as you see him coming. **This does 2x important things: The first is that, if he really wants the node, he'll go stand there and let you pot shot him to get a lead on damage before you engage him. The second is that if he's smart and doesn't want you to pot shot him he has to chase you, which means he leaves the node and you're still actively defending that node while kiting. There are ways through pressure to keep a node your color without actually standing on it.**

This is worth repeating.

As a thief, if I run into a magebane spellbreaker, I am not hanging around on my own. That's not a fight I expect to even begin to win unless there's a +1 happening. They are built to hard counter anything that relies on stealth.

I will, however, soften you up if I notice someone en route to the point you're decapping, and I will count that as a win if you end up downing because of it.

Not saying that "Just 2v1 them!" Is the solution for fighting spellbreakers, but It's valid to leave that to mesmers, scourges, holos, or the like.

Also just keep in mind Rampage is overtuned. They could stand a nerf as it is right now.

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> The problem is DE has always been "unfair". There is **ZERO** counterplay to a properly played DE burst. None. Zilch. Nada.

* A big circle sitting over your head for multiple seconds

* a noise indicator that happens before the bullet is shot

* a bright red-orange line showing the path of the bullet

* a thief being engaged with you to get malice

* a voice clip that lets you know when the thief's malice is full against you

* the bullet being blockable, and thus reflectable.

You sure there's zero? I don't care much for rifle, but don't pretend like there's not a glaring neon "YOU AM GONNA BE BURST" sign over your head long enough for you to figure out a gameplan.

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> > DPS is a role. Complaining about one DPS to get nerfed will just move people to the use the next one.

>

> Agree that DPS is a role. But DPS does not necessarily mean OHK (or close to that). I think OP's point is more: "OHK should not be in the game."

This. There is no problem with DPS oriented specs in and of themselves. The problems begin to manifest when all that damage happens at once, with no visual indication that it's going to happen. I'd even go so far to say I would be completely fine with maul doing around 20k _if the ranger couldn't also stealth it_ or _had to ramp up their damage in combat before they could oneshot maul you._

If a move can hit you for **all your HP**, even when you are not playing glass, without:

having a clearly visible telegraph of at least a couple of seconds

or

while also having the means to HIDE the telegraph without significant windup

The burst is too strong.

There is no rational explanation for having a combination of buffs that can lead to you doing 27k damage to a single target in pvp in one move, especially if that move can be hidden by stealth.