Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"judgebeo.3976" said:

> you didnt understand nothing or just manipulate part of my threat to get an argument. The questions are:

> - If is broken why it didn't been a problem for that LOOOONG time?

Because originally it wasn't broken or not run, but recent patches and synergies caused it to become broken. Mirage is fairly recent, and they have only considered running CI en masse because the other, easier builds have been nerfed down.

> - I f is broken why didnt anet detect it before a bunch of whinners came to forums?

See above. It was either originally not broken, and became that way due to recent synergies, or it was broken and mirage mains only started considering it because their other options are now more difficult to use.

> - if is broken for ages why didnt find a better way than remove the entire trait?

They specified that they have a better way to fix this trait, but it would require a significant rework of the synergies it touches. They can only do major balance patches intermittently. In the meanwhile, to prevent people from being incredibly toxic with the build, they disabled the trait. It isnt gone permanently.

>

> I can just put a ton of question to say that the problem is not that the trait is broken or not, the problem is that anet just one to ppl shut up on the forums and, actually, give us the feelling that they didn't understand their own game.

The release of Mirage and the reworks to chronomancer that caused all of the visual culling because of the phantasm spam made __everyone else__ feel like Anet didn't understand their own game. Welcome to the party. We've all felt that way for a long time.

> So, for you to understand, im not discussing if it is broken or not, we can discuss this in other threat, im saying that devs seems to have no idea (or got some strange plan) about what is happening in the game, and just wait and if there is bunch of people on forums crying like little kids, as a bad father, anet, do whatever is necessary for the kid to shut up.

You are entitled to that opinion. Everyone else feels like that to some extent as well. If your intent is to say "anet doesnt understand the game", I would say you're late to that feeling for some reason. What really matters, though, is whether or not they were justified in doing it.

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Does meta mirage even run sword though?

>

> And why is thief being dragged into this debate over ci, this isn't a sprint race debate.

>

> P.s nerf holo.

I noticed that I made a grave error in making a comparison that was supposed to have the conclusion of "MoD(without CI) is balanced because its use case as it currently stands is similar to headshot, with its advantages reasonably compensating for the mechanical differences between both of those classes" and bailed from the argument.

My point didn't get made because its foundation isn't believed. I didn't intend for this to be a thief discussion.

> @"UBcktieDL.5318" said:

> Problem with condi Mirage is, that it can do quite a lot of damage with it's clones while being extremely slippery. I think some degree of slipperyness and confusion should stay, it's an illusionist afterall, but we should probably get a few more ways to punish the mirage for mistakes.

>

> 1. Mirage Cloak should no longer be useable while stunned.

> 2. Trait "Elusive Mind" reworked: Exhaustion removed, stunbreak removed, now allows Mirage to dodge while CC'd. Not sure about keeping the condi remove part, it would fit well, but maybe it would already be too much. Goal is to force Mirage into a decision between more pressure (IH) and defense (EM).

I've been saying this for a while, but people dismissed it and played the most toxic builds they could until the bubble burst and Anet started making strange nerfs.

Now everything on that class is getting scrutinized.

> @"Mouse.7382" said:

>*Gets trait disabled that was letting them keep people in place and unable to use skills for over 5 seconds due to pulsing daze/immob while you wale on them*

>*Reeeeeeeeeeeee- nerf everything else- *

Go for it. just be prepared to have reasons for why X and Y are unfair/leave no counterplay avenues. If you're right, you're right. If you're wrong, you're wrong.

I like fighting everything, as long as that class has specific weaknesses I can lay into and cant just lock me down without any kind of retaliation avenue.

More often that not, that falls on thief. Its really satisfying to predict when they are coming out of stealth for a DJ or stowing your weapons only to block a backstab, or killing them while stealthed because they did something predictable like standing in the dead center of shadow refuge.

Its fun to fight everything but condi mirage at the moment, but V. thief matches have a special place in my heart. Necros are a close second, followed by warriors, power mesmers, and engineers. I think I'm less enthused about rangers, revs, and eles, but If they're good I still like fighting them.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> And within this poll lies the secret statistics of why certain classes get to stay top meta with no complaint, and why others are repeatedly nerfed into the ground as soon they even touch meta status.

>

> Thank you for this, I mean it.

Astute observation, probably?

Youll have to elaborate on what your conclusion is.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> Well, I did say "effectively".

*squints*

....Fine, you pass.

>Though, now that I looked up the math, I am in fact off by a bit. Its slightly slower than superspeed, but still really really fast. And I would. Because it makes every Mirage Cloak give you 150 extra units of distance. Which you get a lot of. Its not much, but its noticable. Its certainly more than Thieves Swiftness.

I wouldn't say that, but I'm also not willing to go test it for this argument right now, so very well, we can consider it in this.

> No, I dont. And remember, your original argument was specifically "Mesmer needs instant interrupts so that enemies wont just run away from them". This'll be important in just a bit.

>

> Because the original context was running enemies, and I alluded to the details. The thing is, when an enemy is running away, the vertical mobility only matters if the enemy that is running away is gonna be using it to escape. Here is the thing. There is 1 class in the game that actually has more vertical mobility than Mesmer. Thief. The problem is, even a thief wont be able to stop a thief from running away once they have managed to get to that stage. A thief can only stop it by bursting the thief down before he can run away. Something Mesmer is considerably better at. So in the only situation in which vertical mobility could matter ... it doesnt. Thats why Mesmers are in fact faster not slower. As for your example, blinking up one slope is something Mesmer can do. Multiple slopes is where it matters. And while the idea of a Warrior running up the stairs, only for a Mesmer to appear in front of them, so they run up the stairs again while the Mesmer sit arounds is comical, its not going to happen.

It is something mesmer can do, but they have less access to the mechanic pool that would allow them to do this, as compared to thief. If a mesmer has just used a blink for a stunbreak and a warrior bails, they have less chase in that situation. At any point in a skirmish, a thief has generally more options to traverse terrain on a shorter cooldown, is what I am trying to get at. Because of that, it seems right to me to have an interrupt that is counterable/weaker as you mentioned below, but can still break disengage attempts/heals.

> They wont. Sword 2's Fake backport is disabled. It lets you get ontop of an enemy once, but after that you have to wait a long time just to be able to port again once. Only to wait again. The swiftness is just again, a considerably worse version of Mesmers semi-superspeed. It also doesnt help that much seeing how since Warrior actually has a baseline 25% speedboost, and likely has swiftness himself, you will be running slower. Oh and you cant interrupt his main mobility skill, whirlwind attack since it evades. Youll be able to stop the Rush perhaps, but by then the Warrior is looooong gone. And thats assuming he didnt just give himself quickness to rush out of headshot range before you can stop it. Because Warrior builds nowadays tend to do that.

__What warrior runs frenzy nowadays__ digression but valid points.

> They have less chase than thieves in every scenario that doesnt involve someone porting up 2 cliffs back to back. Which only thief can do. Which even another thief cant keep up with. So they have more chase in only one super-narrow situation that doesnt matter 1 bit. In normal situations they have *more* chase. So given that, youd expect their interrupt to be worse at stopping escaping enemies. Instead its so much better its not even funny.

>

> The difference is Headshot isnt instant, doesnt daze for 1.5 seconds and can actually be countered. If MoD had a cast time, or dazed for 0.25 seconds, or better both, the analogy would work. As it is, its just headshot on crack on a class that should have worse interrupts.

What you are saying is true. I'm not entirely convinced because I think that, across most fight scenarios, MoD as it is now would cover the mobility discrepancy that you do not agree exists, but I respect the argument nonetheless. I still don't think it is causing a stark overperformance and thus absolutely needs a nerf for the reasons stated above (which I can see the rationale behind btw), but very well~

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > Just a thought. Would be nice to see, for example, DD get +vit and/or toughness so they can run a more durable amulet, which would let anet adjust various other things about the spec (such as shifting durability a little bit, trimming evades for ex while still retaining overall brawliness).

> > >

> > > Same for the others. Zerker got -toughness (for unfathomable reasons, but w/e) - it'd be fair to add some vit to the same trait. I still think scrapper's -300 vitality is horrendously stupid, but balancing it out with +300 toughness would be interesting

> >

> > Scrapper has -Vit for the same reason Zerk has -toughness. Anet wants to encourage a certain playstyle with scrapper so that you generate barrier through doing constant damage to supplement your lost vitality. Zerk got -toughness to encourage it to play aggressively while in berserker mode, but also to make it easier to stop of it burns all of its attacks needlessly.

> >

> > I'm fine with adding a way to restore that lost vitality for scrapper, just like Zerker has a way to get its toughness back. But, also like zerker, scrapper should be forced to take a hit to something else if it chooses to do so. Zerker, as a DPS spec, can get toughness restored if it gives up its damage boosting traits. Scrapper, as a defensive spec, should get its barrier gen reduced or give up access to something sustainy traitwise if it wants the vit back.

>

> You forgot that when bererk loses toughness he gain power and condition 300 of each stat. Its not like they have nothing in return.

> Meanwhile chrono lost everything for garbage 105s cd "shatter" that took over distortion.(and they made its dead in competitive game modes,u'm not saying berserk is fine either)

> Can we apply the same logic on photon forge,shades,fullcounter with a 105s cd on each?:D

Zerk also lost Adrenaline access unless in berserk mode/ access to burst skills outside of berserk and access to level 2 and 3 tiers of burst permanently, all of which were a large part of their sustain, so...

all the specs are getting shafted here, I wouldnt consider scrapper and chrono reworks to be any worse than zerker as it stands now.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> Eh, not quite. Thief is good at running away because you can simply stealth up, move away from the enemy while theyre not sure where you are, and depending on the gamemode either go for a decap, or mount up and just run away.

**True. Keep this in mind.**

>Mesmers options for long-term stealth are more limited. Theyre good at oneshotting out of stealth. Not so good at running away thanks to stealth. Now, as for your examples, saying that "Mesmer have no mobility outside of the best long-distance teleportation spell, essentially thieves shadowstep on a much shorter cooldown, a lesser thieves shadowstep on a lower cooldown, and a skill that lets them transform dodges into fast long-range dashes". Is like saying "Scourge has no boon transformation outside the 3 skills they have that transform boons". _And you forgot to mention that Mirage effectively gets Superspeed while in Mirage Cloak._

[beeecause they don't get superspeed. Not anymore. Not that a 1 second spike of movement speed for spending a dodge is something I would weigh in terms of mobility.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Speed_of_Sand "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Speed_of_Sand")

> And I guess the sword ambush attack. So no, objectively they arent slower.

They're slower, and you prove it below. Keep in mind I am bringing up the mesmer's speed in getting from point A to point B to explain that MOD is balanced because they have less access to things that could put them in a position to capitalize on Mantra of Distraction's interrupt as compared to thief and its headshot, which is accepted as balanced.

> In fact, I would argue theyre generally faster. The big advantage thief has, and the reason theyre still better decap bots is the nature of their movement. Thieves primarily move around the map with shortbow 5. Being a blink, this means thieves handle elevation much better. Mesmer only has Blink for moving up large distances, as Jaunt is too short, and the sword ambush skill is just vertical movement. Thieves are better at horizontal movement, and for sPvP decap purposes thats better. For the purposes of catching up with people? It isnt. Its actually worse. Unless they are a thief, because noone else handles elevation well either, at which point it doesnt matter either way. Thief is good at not fighting after all.

Why are you separating thieves ability to move vertically much more frequently than mesmers from consideration in how mobile they are? That should also be considered. All use methods of thief ports and their stealth movement, as it relates to moving to any specific point in the map that is normally accessible, should be considered in terms of their mobility.

**Thieves aren't good at fighting. That is true. But that fact has no bearing on whether MoD needs a nerf.** What **does** have a bearing on whether MoD needs a nerf are the use cases it applies to, across all of the specifications that can access it. Keep in mind any changes made to MOD will potentially affect **EVERY** mesmer build, now and in the future.

As for whether thieves are faster your argument basically goes:

*Thieves are good at scaling elevations faster

*And thieves are better at horizontal movement

*but these dont make them better at catching up with people, because other people dont have vertical blinks.

To which I say, blink up a cliff after a warrior uses the stairs and see if you can catch him.

> They cannot. Something youd know if you played Warrior in WvW for 10 minutes. Its honestly sad to see the poor thieves just struggle to keep up only to fail anyway in the end. And no, the only weaponset that does is shortbow 5. The rest of the weapons are actually terrible at moving distances, Sword can no longer do the fake backport so its out, Rifles teleport is just bad, and if youre already out of range all D/P has is Heartseeker, which is honestly just a sad skill nowadays.

This is the PVP forum, unfortunately I do not play in WvW because ~~__class balancing is nonexistent there.__~~ roaming isn't fun there anymore. Sorry, I got something in my sarcasm.

Steal, Sword 2, swiftness on steal, and shortbow will let me keep pace with any low health warrior, as long as I want. Any rushes can be disabled with headshot. I only consider this as it relates to conquest because this is the PvP forum and WvW is a different, very pitiable beast.

> So, now that we have established that the class its being used on is in fact *faster*, not slower, does that change your mindset? How about the fact that Mesmer also has vastly superior defensive *and* offensive capabilities? Youd imagine that the class that is great at fighting either way would at least be worse at stopping the enemy from hitting their big hits than the class thats pretty bad at it. But no, because thats how it goes apparently.

We haven't established that Mesmer is faster. See above. And because they have less chase than thieves, who have an almost instant interrupt that allows them to shut down escapes/heals, it remains reasonable that mesmers having an interrupt that allows them to do the same should be considerate of that.

Mesmer has superior offensive and defensive capabilities **if they run specifically condi mirage**. Power mirage, Power Chrono, and Core Mes are all more balanced, and any nerf to MoD nerfs all of those classes. With CI gone, Condi mirage is also significantly weaker, and they are now considering running bunker. I understand the instadaze is annoying, but nerfing it for whatever reason you are nerfing it (If it is because of instant cast daze, are you okay with headshot being nerfed, since they fit the same use case? If it is because of Immob, are you aware the trait that makes it immob you is gone?) breaks too many interactions, and the synergy that made it really strong has already been disabled. If you're fine with headshot as is, you should be fine with MoD.

Also, while this mostly applies to traits, I've said it a million times, if there is a problem with a spec overperforming, **nerf the spec, not the core pieces of the class.** People keep pushing for this whenever there's a class they don't like. I don't understand. You're risking breaking every power mes spec over an instant daze, which is only useful in a few situations on its own.

Also again, I am not advocating nerfing anything right now. CI was the only problem that made mirages toxic levels of annoying, as far as I can tell.

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> Just a thought. Would be nice to see, for example, DD get +vit and/or toughness so they can run a more durable amulet, which would let anet adjust various other things about the spec (such as shifting durability a little bit, trimming evades for ex while still retaining overall brawliness).

>

> Same for the others. Zerker got -toughness (for unfathomable reasons, but w/e) - it'd be fair to add some vit to the same trait. I still think scrapper's -300 vitality is horrendously stupid, but balancing it out with +300 toughness would be interesting

Scrapper has -Vit for the same reason Zerk has -toughness. Anet wants to encourage a certain playstyle with scrapper so that you generate barrier through doing constant damage to supplement your lost vitality. Zerk got -toughness to encourage it to play aggressively while in berserker mode, but also to make it easier to stop of it burns all of its attacks needlessly.

I'm fine with adding a way to restore that lost vitality for scrapper, just like Zerker has a way to get its toughness back. But, also like zerker, scrapper should be forced to take a hit to something else if it chooses to do so. Zerker, as a DPS spec, can get toughness restored if it gives up its damage boosting traits. Scrapper, as a defensive spec, should get its barrier gen reduced or give up access to something sustainy traitwise if it wants the vit back.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > I'm inclined to agree with @"bravan.3876" on this.

> >

> > MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.

> > The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

> >

> > on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

> >

> > You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

>

> Yeah Mesmers havent been slower than thieves in a long time. Unless you mean they are less good at running away, which sure, thats true, but Mesmer doesnt need to run away. Oh and if youre worried that you wont be able to stop a Warrior from running away if they save all their skills to do so? Good. Thieves havent been able to stop that for years, its about time Mesmer cant either.

**Sips tea**

But if a class is "less good at running away", Then most likely they're slower than the class that is better at running away. Mesmers have no mobility outside of blink/jaunt, Illusion leap and portal. They cant get from point A to B very quickly, and if a class is running away, they need to rely on blink/leap to chase, which have reasonably sized cooldowns. The fact of the matter is that objectively, they are slower than thieves, so it seems reasonable to me that there be slightly more leniency on the situations in which they can use their daze.

Thieves can also stop warriors disengaging with rush, by the way, and most of their weapon sets allow them to move a substantial distance in a given direction repeatedly, so they have an easier time keeping up with a warrior (or any other high moba class) that decides that it wants to leave.

I'm digressing though. My point is that MoD has a similar function to headshot, and fills the same purpose, but because the class it is being used on is slower than the class that has headshot, it has a bit more leniency on range and cast time. That on its own, is fine. What is not fine is it being able to set off a chain reaction that leads to a high-uptime snare, just like Pulmonary Impact was not fine in its high damage state when used on thieves that would interrupt their way to a kill.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > The daze will not kill you because you still can dodge all dmg skills will be used together or after it. I never got killed by Mesmer only spamming Mantra and hit autoattacks or even luckily hit a big skill accidently with it. Only well timed interrupts (like getting my heal when i am low already, a Mesmer surviving by interrupting my Chilled to the bones) can make a Powermes using Mantra and only Powerblock win a fight. Most Mesmer i met barely get interrupt vs me with their Mantra (mostly on autoattacks what does nothing wihtout CI). You sound like you never played a Powerblock Powermes with Mantra yourself and that vs ppl are not bronze lvl freekills anyway tbh. You sounds like a totally predictable player complaining about something he has no clue how to play against. What you say about stowing is inefficient and nothing i listed is a counter is just ridiculous.

>It will, because you wont be able to. Youre immobilized, remember? Its basically a DIY stun. Except better since you need a stunbreak that also cleanses condis or removes immobilizing effects. And yes, were talking about Mesmers who time it to interrupt. Theyre the ones that are a problem after all. And no, I have. I know how broken it is from first-hand experience. Its as if I was playing D/P with higher damage, far lower execution barrier and skill required, and far more resilient. And no, it has nothing to do with predictabiltiy. See, being predictable only matters when there is a way to stop the interrupts. Like say, with Headshot. There is no way to stop the interrupts vs Mesmer. Either you use no skills, in which case they kill you for free, or you do, they instantly interrupt it with no counterplay, DIY stun you, and kill you.

Bravan is right. If you keep the immob out of the equation (keep in mind that immob comes from CI, which is now disabled and will probably not return in its past state), MoD does nothing but instant cast daze you, which is only dangerous when you are healing while low and only useful for preventing bursts outside of that. You keep implying that MoD has the immob part baked in. It doesnt.

I may dislike Mesmer because of how annoying it has the potential to be among other things, but there's no need to touch MoD if it can't instantly snare you anymore.

And, for the record, I am not advocating nerfing thieves OR warriors. Both of those classes as they stand now are not unbalanced as far as I know. I just think pushing to shave MoD, on its own, unaffected by traits, is silly.

> @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> I think they hate CI/MoD because the majority of people just want to play mark/shade spewer Scourge and guess what build/class is particularly good at disrupting that?

I mean... CI in its current state not only erases scourges, but Necros and Reapers too.

You shouldnt be allowed to just auto win vs a class because you dazed them, especially when you can daze whenever you want..

I'm inclined to agree with @"bravan.3876" on this.

MoD on its own is not a problem. if you're on your last legs and the mesmer hasnt burned MoD to try to stop you from eating their HP, then you already lost the fight.

The synergy with that and CI is too much, because immob on daze can lead to immob locks just like the bugged entangle, that ALSO breaks your attempt to clear the immob if your clear of choice has a cast time.

on its own, MoD is fine. You can generally tell when the mesmer is going to use it. Itll either be burned trying to stop you from bursting them, or to stop you from healing. You can stow to bait it if you're 1200R away or less, move further, to heal for free, or pressure the mes into a cast to heal. While I think its obnoxious that they can just daze whatever they want, I'm not sure nerfing specifically it is going to help. It may be instant cast, but keep in mind that mesmers are generally slower than thieves and a long range cast may be necessary to interrupt people wanting to leave a fight theyre losing. I bet any nerf that causes them to, say, lose every encounter with warrior because rush/whirl (or swoop) outspeeds Power lock is going to feel really kitten bad.

You balance CI, and put a projectile tell on Arcane thievery, and I think you can call it a day until the next busted synergy.

**Sits back, balancing notepad on lap**

Yes.

Do go on and tell everyone the other things that have no counterplay. That will certainly go well.

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> This may be the realist/optimist in me, however I see wayyyyyy more calls for "nerfs" when there should be calls for "balance"

Inclined to agree. The aim of whatever restructuring should be first and foremost promoting fairness in class power distribution. Nerfing a class may cause us to require other nerfs, but this shouldn't be fueled by ~~merely~~ revenge or failure to adapt to playstyles that you can do something about without having to run a specific class .

> @"Jasher.6580" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major kitten part of your class.

> >

> > Hard facts. Imagine not being able to use a mechanic your class is built around for a large portion of its damage mitigation if you want to 2v2. If you dont have HoT expack and run condi daredevil thief, you're screwed.

> >

> > > @"judgebeo.3976" said:

> >

> > > IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...

> > > but **suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI**, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

> >

> > Imagine being sick for a good portion of your life and a doctor finds out what your illness is, but you get angry at the doctor for suggesting they cure it because you've had it for so long.

> >

> > Something being broken for a long time doesn't insulate it against fixing.

>

> Imagine having a skin condition on your face for a good portion of your life and the doctor finds out what your illness is, but he tells you to wear a bag on your head until they find out how to clean up your skin because it is too offensive for others to look at.

>

> Me: Um... okay doc, when are you gonna find the cure? How long do I have to wear this? There aren't even any holes in it, I can't breathe properly... I can't see. You are limiting my physical capabilities.

>

> Doc: Bruh... I'm not sure but you have to wear this bag until then... nobody deserves to see that face.

>

> Me: But my face broke out like this because of the cream you gave me... so this is your fault.

>

> Doc: Yeah... well such is life.

>

This analogy works if you are a gorgon and people seeing your face kills them.

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Okay, but they're going to need to fix their arena mechanic choice for the more recent map release. They're basically saying thieves can't duo.

>

> But.... but thieves can't Duo..

....

Fair enough

Okay, but they're going to need to fix their arena mechanic choice for the more recent map release. They're basically saying thieves can't duo.

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major kitten part of your class.

Hard facts. Imagine not being able to use a mechanic your class is built around for a large portion of its damage mitigation if you want to 2v2. If you dont have HoT expack and run condi daredevil thief, you're screwed.

> @"judgebeo.3976" said:

> IMO anet is acting like a "fireman", just do something when is a bit too late, and something that is just extreme. Remove an entire trait... the funny thing is that trait has been there for ages, i've been using that for ages... no problem...

> but **suddenly everyone starts to use mantra and CI**, then whinners come to forums and anet decide to remove something that has been there for ages...

Imagine being sick for a good portion of your life and a doctor finds out what your illness is, but you get angry at the doctor for suggesting they cure it because you've had it for so long.

Something being broken for a long time doesn't insulate it against fixing.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > Just wondering, wasn't Jessica Parker fired for arguing with a player? What is going to happen with someone who called part of the playerbase "degenerate"?

>

> Literally nothing because degenerate play is a very specific term in game design and competitive gaming and there was nothing wrong with the terminology regarding CI Mirage last patch.

>

> > A degenerate strategy is a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design.

> >

> > Degenerate strategies do not break the rules of a game like a code or a cheat, but they do prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer.

>

> https://www.techopedia.com/definition/27042/degenerate-strategy

I learned something today.

I mean....

> @"Vincenzo.3145" said:

> That's kitten. Here's some counterplay right here.

> /wiki resistance

If you actually wiki resistance, you'll see that the pool of class specs that actually have access to resistance is very small. Also, the resistance given is short duration in most cases and, being a boon, is subject to Arcane Thievery or Sigil of Absorption/Annulment. It isn't counterplay, its resistance, pun not intended.

> Or maybe we could see how THEY would like it if we took to their forums and started whining about their classes. Because that's CLEARLY the intelligent thing to do.

I mean... Go for it. If things on a particular class have no or very little counterplay and promote a playstyle that is unbalanced, you are absolutely free to make a discussion like everyone who has been complaining about CI has been doing and open that opinion to critique. That's how the forums work. Every other class has been on the chopping block when something was given to them that let them bypass counterplay. Join the party.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> https://youtu.be/5t9Zjh6jEMQ

Ah yes, the legendary immersed Thief

> @"leunamsil.6742" said:

> > @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> > > @"Kumouta.4985" said:

> > > Yes, because charr are smart enough to notice that the riddle was made by a racist.

> >

> > Really? We go this far as to state that the writers are "racist" in a fantasy game. I gave up on the mentality of the people playing this game when I was deemed "racist" for creating and promoting an "All Norn" guild. The constant drop of certain words devalue their meaning.

>

> He isn't saying the the writers are racist, he is saying Caudecus is racist...

This. Racial tensions exist in Tyria. Just because I play a Charr doesn't mean I became automatically blind to the fact that some power hungry (and also dead) jerkwad thinks charr are primal. Pretty sure that same connection could be made canonically.

Sounds like you're using that as a stand in for a larger issue. You can make whatever guild you want, my guy. Guilds are made up of people though, remember that.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Edit: The shocking thing to me was seeing it referred to as "degenerate play". That's not the kind of professionalism I'd expect from a company, let alone a representative of the company that enabled this despite many warnings by their community for over 2 years that lowering cool downs was a bad idea.

That's the rhetoric of an undercover dev who ran into a foul mouthed CI Mirage. Keep in mind the balance team has acquired some new blood recently, and some old blood may have been reintroduced after being pulled off culled projects.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> >

> > Good day, all,

> >

> > We've been listening to your feedback following the previous balance update, and we heard about issues around the mirage's Chaotic Interruption (CI) playstyle in PvP—in particular its lack of counterplay and present dominance. We agree that this is an issue, and that it's creating degenerate play and negatively affecting PvP.

> >

> > We've been discussing changes to it, and this is not something that can be addressed well via a hotfix or as part of our short-term release. Changes are going to take some time before they are ready because they involve multiple traits and affect different game modes. Our current estimation is that the complete changes will be ready for the next balance update.

> >

> > We don't want to leave the situation in PvP as it is, so we've made the decision to disable the CI trait only in PvP until the fix is ready.

> >

> > Thanks for your understanding and patience as we prepare the changes. Again, they will take a bit of time, and we wanted to communicate our reasoning clearly.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> > The GW2 Systems Team

>

> <3

**Stands up, knocking chair over and spilling coffee**

A HOTFIX?!

NANI?

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> CI may have been available for years but that doesn't mean it wasn't broken. Personally, didn't touch it; won't miss it. Just glad this FOTM didn't linger as long as others. Can people leave Mes alone now?

I am willing to leave a class alone as long as it doesn't have a way to prevent you from taking any action for an extended amount of time while you take damage, without a discernable telegraph. That is really all I want, regardless of what class that is. It's unfortunate mesmer continues to be the class to fit that description, but if it no longer does with certain tweaks, that's all I need.

Last patch was pretty good.

I may not approve of some of the tradeoff mechanics, and there are still a few overperformers, but matchups are not as egregiously skewed as they were before, and balance changes up to this point starting with the zerker rework have shown a reasonable amount of foresight.

Thanks for that, it appears to be working.