Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Dhemize.8649" said:

> Can we all agree that being able to spam multiple attacks that also count as evades to perma contest a point is completely stupid?

No. Your premise is loaded.

If those attacks are seamless and have no way to punish before or after they complete, sure. If they also make it difficult to target the opponent or do damage in a large radius, also sure.

Pistol whip does neither of those. It is less oppressive point contest-wise than almost any other class's normal rotation. Weaver,Warrior,Soulbeast,Prot Holo, Firebrand, Mirage, and Revenant all have mechanics that are more situationally useful and more generally effective at mitigating damage while simultaneously allowing them to attack, It just so happens that thief's version that begins to approach that now relies mainly on one button (and also, on your opponent staying in range for the duration of the swings).

People are quick to punish thief for doing pretty much anything, whether it be relying on stealth for damage mitigation or dealing damage from range or evading too much with no gaps in between. Pistol whip is the tamest variant thief has and probably the only variant they have that doesn't rely on 20k stealth attacking / +1ing, which people also hate, and it lets people walk away from most of its damage.

At this point, I think people are overreacting because they're not used to a thief not +1ng them or loading them with conditions, that also manages to not die.

> @"VoidNard.7206" said:

> PVP game mode is objectively bad. The people who defend the quality of this game mode are those who enjoy playing the most broken builds. Theres no point in playing structured pvp other than to farm the legendary armor. After im done that, im never touching that disgusting game mode again. Imagine being a new player and trying pvp for the first time. Part of the reason pvp is getting less popular is because the game mode sucks. The game was made around WvW and pvp but the devs are creating a different game. Before you say anything, yeah im bad at pvp, and that is not a valid point. Just because i suck at a game mode doesnt mean its not objectively bad.

A developer that has experience in pvp has been assigned to help attempt to get things balanced. The game has been in a state of relative imbalance pvp wise since its inception, however. The game was based around open world, and it is only recently (within the past two months, I think) that the pvp balance team gained a measure of influence in skill balance for the game mode.

Keep in mind that, also, you tend to get out what you put in. If you vent by sending toxic whispers to people in game when you down, you're probably going to get some of that toxicity back.

Tl'dr; Yeah, a bunch of us still like it and want to see it succeed, though. Also consider not rage whispering, you'll feel much better.

**Sighs in constant nerf suggestions**

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> Going to refrain from saying too much and just use my brain on this post, as a mostly a necro player i feel i have the right to say **"it feels bad man"**

> That said, what ever anet chooses to do with this will be left as "it is what it is"

>

> I wont make suggestions.

**h e l p**

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Firebrand will be rebalanced soon. If they want it to have a support role, that's fine, but it shouldn't also be able to nuke you with condis or symbol damage. Once the balancing team decides what they want FB to do they'll trim what's excessive.

>

> If they trim Symbol damage just to nerf Firebrand, I'll lose another main character with my Symbol DH, leaving me with literally 0 classes that I can enjoy and being semi-viable.

> Symbols are fine the way they are.

> Arenanet should only nerf Firebrand directly, not core.

Agreed.

[Old post. nvm]

Firebrand will be rebalanced soon. If they want it to have a support role, that's fine, but it shouldn't also be able to nuke you with condis or symbol damage. Once the balancing team decides what they want FB to do they'll trim what's excessive.

Couple things

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> 

> bois it's ok, we all know by history that **spike meta naturally evolves in to bunker meta**, because classes without spike cheese are forced to spec hard bunker.

> either way it will die, i'm sure these guys defending right now will enjoy the bunker meta so much as it's natural progression.

See now, here's the thing. The existence of a strong spike class doesn't necessarily mean the advent of bunker meta. People are generally just as eager to play spike classes as they are to play unkillable ones. What matters is what's available. Remember, chronobunker and scrapper leapt into relevance the moment they were empowered to be practically unkillable 1v1. It wasn't really in response to any particular gank spec.

That being said, it's important that we not allow unkillable builds as much as we disallow oneshots that don't give you a chance to react.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > Ouchies :cry:

> >

> > https://streamable.com/v6ksk

>

> First of all, you could hear mes stealth.

> Sec of all he whiffed and you should punish

> Third of all, did you srsl follow up his combo with ambush?

I agree with Leonidrex on this one. after a while you get paranoid about hearing that faint chiming noise, just like you do about hearing black powder being dropped.

And, in this case, mirror blade appeared first. That burst was sloppy.

That being said, what you mentioned later is also true.Trevor proved earlier that the burst, timed properly, can erase a class, but whether that is due more to timing than it is the classes choice of amulet or some other external factor remains to be seen.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > **THE REST WILL BE UP TO MY REACTION TIME AND PING I SUPPOSE.**

> I really want to stress the point behind the bolded.

> ^ I think that's a good portion of the problems we have happening. A good 50% of what is making this so toxic, actually isn't even related to the class design/patching.

I''m more in agreement with this. I think this was and remains the most balanced view of this right now.

I personally find myself having enough time to respond to mes burst more often than not, but that is probably largely due to the fact that my ping very rarely goes above 30ms. If something can be done for players that probably see connection delays upwards of 100ms, that would be nice.

I need more data on exactly **what core power mes oneshots, whether that oneshot potential is hard countered by using a traitline with damage gating or a tougher amulet, and whether there is a way to make it slightly more telegraphed without making it useless**. I also did some mock matches with Mort in the arena on my War (and probably my zerker thief, though that was prob vs. a condi build.) If I was reasonably aware which direction he was coming from I was able to evade most of the damage. If I failed that, taking Defy Pain saved me.

I see the frustration, but I'm not willing to agree fully with damage nerfing it just yet personally. I don't think leaving this in is specifically going to lead to bunker meta. It would be better if there was a way to modify the burst specifically to remove the instances where it can completely remove the health of someone not playing full glass with no telegraph, if such exist. Still open to changing my mind on that though..

(And I consider sound effects from The Prestige/Mass Invisibility / Mirror blade / Being stunned one second before nuke to all be suitable telegraphs. Anything outside of that or that gets around that should be adjusted.)

Good work, good work~

> @"Sleepwalker.1398" said:

> Do ppl play cheesy Malicious backstab with permastealth DE in PVP or this just a WvW thing?

I used to for a few months. Don't even need rifle.

I bet its even worse now that they buffed SA

> @"JayAction.9056" said:

> CJTheKilla abused Mes to the point of stupidity in PvP season 1 reaching Legend like 34 times over.

I don't care about the game's legendary players enough to know who that is or be impressed with their ranking placement.

I do care about it enough to determine what needs balancing though.

> @"AngelsShadow.7360" said:

> hahahahahaha

>

> imagine complaining about a class thats dead

Ah, the wounded gazelle.

I haven't seen one of those since bunker chrono.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > Hmm, couldn't they always do this? I dont get why people complain at stuff that's been on/off for years

>

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Regarding:

> >

> >

> >

> > Lmao that's really funny

> >

> > Tbh getting stunned would have made me IMMEDATELY press plague signet and dodge off that roof though, regarding first burst. There was a full second before that burst hit to do that.

> >

> > Def agree that the video highlights just how little response time there is, though. That poor focused necro.

> >

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" , thoughts on vid?

> > I'm curious.

>

>

>

> Here is the video from the other perspective.

So basically the non mes team was suffering and the mes team was playing some stupid minigame with a handicap to boot.

Disgusting.

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> My opinion is very different if there is an absence of an indication, but I have yet to see that.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" Well I'll be damned, you're right. There's a nontelegraphed at 1:57. No stun, nothing, just straight HP loss. That is an issue.

I like this map because I can omegadecap with thief and cause snowballs on my own. It's also the closest thing to team deathmatch that isnt courtyward.

Lamp is useless though and having to tell team to ignore lamp every time Djinn lands on rotation is annoying.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

>big flying sword :D

@"mortrialus.3062" cued me in on this, which is why I mentioned that the mes needs to basically hug you to get that big nuke damage. You can see mirror blade coming if they aren't right on you. And for their shatter to do big omegadamage, you cant be using skills, which means the stun has to hit you first.

See a stun = dodge.

See a sword = dodge.

See purple flames? count to 3, then dodge or prepare to stunbreak and dodge.

> Immagine the wrold where necro just took 3 steps back on the bridge, mesmer would have to walk away in shame, or use another stealth, and try without mantra might stacks.

I don't think it's -that- easy however.

Again, I just need to mention I in no way think this is -fun- to get nailed with if you're distracted. I am, however, convinced you can avoid it, at least for now. I am fine with it being shaved, as well; because the window for avoiding it is immensely small. But considering how glassy the mes is to do this, it kind of echoes back to a couple of other threads Ive seen where people get hit by big friggin numbers and then complain about it, and the defense for those threads is "every class can nuke if they give up all their defense."

I am totally fine with nukes compared to __the alternative.__

Just be careful with what you take off of it. Start with Mantra of Pain since free damage is stupid, then work from there. Don't put __the alternative__ meta back into rotation.

Just keep in mind., every class can nuke if they spec for it. as long as there's an indication that HP-erasing damage is going to hit you, I will gladly take that over bunker meta.

My opinion is very different if there is an absence of an indication, but I have yet to see that.

I'm also a little bitter that I feel compelled to argue this while people complain about DJ hitting them like a truck even though it puts a big light over your head and dazes you before that happens but whatever.

Again, I see your point, but I just want to argue this for the fun of it.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> I mean if you still aren't understanding what I'm saying here, please explain to me what the guy in the video, in that first 30s, what was he supposed to do to counter play that?


Stunbreak and dodge here. Immediately head for lower ground to break line of sight of mesmer with the bridge you were standing on so mantras cannot be spammed. Clones will take time to get to you and phantasms will miss. GS cannot shoot through bridge. There is nobody at mid, so mes will either disengage for mid (at which point you + their friends at far) or follow you (Also go to far, to drag mes away from point and get help/peels).

The Necro already kittened up by going to mid without life force and without a wurm planted to leave if he so desired that. , unaccompanied, mind you. They cant do that, at least not without taking spectral armor (which he didnt take.)

> Consider it was a 100% to immediate 0% situation against a better Mesmer, where there is seriously no reaction time. Even that slower Mesmer in the video is still a lightning fast kill, which provides little reaction time to begin with.

This is pretty insane yeah. To this date though, I have not seen a power mesmer player layer everything so perfectly that the stun doesnt give them away, or be able to perfectly mask The Prestige if I was paying attention.

> It's possible that some of the better players out there have the reflexes to actually slam a stun break and dodge roll out in the exact moment they see the health drop from 100% to 30%.

This isnt hard, that necro had a full second on that platform to see his window iced over and press a stun break/dodge. The only class that can stun you without direct physical contact is mesmer, so that situation means death is coming.

>There are times when I've had my head so deep in the game, that I could have escaped the burst in that video, but it requires this extra competitive mind frame that most players never really achieve. But when we are talking about 100% to 0%, I'm telling you my man, there is no reaction time. No player can escape that and neither could a computer AI bot with the fastest reflex times possible, because as soon as there is anything to read in the programming at all of an inc attack, you're already dead. I mean what is the guy supposed to do here? **Go into mid when he can't see any enemies and start dodge rolling into the air, using his blocks, burn through his CDs?**

No. Besides, that necro shouldnt have been at mid _at all_. he should have gone to far with the player that passed him, or to home. For the first bout necro needs to be babysit or arrive late to a point so it isnt the focus. Every other class in this game has at the very least a trait that gates damage, that would have allowed them to live vs this in particular, or a stunbreak that also functions as an evade. Necro is by far the most susceptible class to this burst.

> This is too much man.

I see why people could reach that conclusion, and I'm not going to claim that it shouldn't be shaved. I'm just not going to lean all the way into saying that it's too much, because as close to instant damage as I have seen core mesmers come, I have never seen one seamless, without at least an indication that you were going to explode (although it took me some time to learn what those indications were.)

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > I literally just want to be able to SEE the kitten CC... I'm not asking for a lot here.

>

> A self CC'ing skill that your opponent will react and dodge to sounds pretty underwhelming. Maybe you are just not aware that many professions have a specified amount of damage/CC skills that are difficult to avoid so that they necessitate cooldown use on their enemies?

>

> Nobody bats an eyelash at Deadeye's Binding Shadows 3s knockdown from stealth, Necromancer's Doom (Death Shroud #3). I

People do complain about binding shadows. Fear is a minor cc that you can condi cleanse. Both of those have less duration than getting launch procced on you.

And when berserker headbutt first came out people flipped the forums asking for it to be slowed down, even though it also imposes CC on the user, and now it has a 3/4 second cast time even though its less than half the range of overcharged shot so...

None of that really defends this in particular.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> 5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with **visible animation tied to it**.

That's the only thing I agree with here. particularly because of the last bit.

Everything else seems over the top.

EDIT:

> 1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.

I also agree with this.

There sure are a lot of people asking for stealth to be reworked without understanding how thief depends on it to do pretty much anything.

Regarding:

Lmao that's really funny

Tbh getting stunned would have made me IMMEDATELY press plague signet and dodge off that roof though, regarding first burst. There was a full second before that burst hit to do that.

Def agree that the video highlights just how little response time there is, though. That poor focused necro.

@"Leonidrex.5649" , thoughts on vid?

I'm curious.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Dude they're coming in from way further out than 1200 Blink range. The stealth uptime on this build is A LOT higher than it used to be in previous years.

I mean, I guess? They still have to blink to you or be in melee range to complete the burst though so mirror blade bounces, and mirror blade itself is 1,200 range.

If they use The Prestige, its even easier to tell when you're going to explode. Of course they can stealth way out, but that seems unlikely to me because of how inefficient it is.

> I don't even necessarily care about its damage output. I care that I can't SEE it at all, not on my mini map or visually anywhere in the screen, before it comes from around a blind spot at 4000 range or some kitten, and blows you up. It's actually worse when it arrives into say a 3v3 type situation. Because you have no idea where he is going to target. You could even see the Mesmer stealth, but you have absolutely no idea who the guy is going to target. I mean a Deadeye "marks" you before you start getting hit, even if it's just a split second before you get attacked. Soulbeasts use "Sic Em" and you can see it appear on your bar. But this Power Mesmer nonsense seriously has ZERO tells at all. Like there actually is no counter play whatsoever. It deals so much damage that the only way for 3 people to feasibly counter play the Mesmer's approach is if all 3 players begin burning blocks and dodges and other defensive CDs for the duration of the stealth, to make sure they aren't the one targeted. Do you realize how powerful that is? to be able to pressure & bait that many CDs from your opponent simply by stealthing near them? It's too much.

I'm 50/50 on it. I agree that its frustrating, especially if you're distracted. you do usually only need one block or dodge to avoid that whole burst, though. And if that mesmer ported in from way out, they likely dont have:

blink

A utility that they used for stealth

The Prestige

That means, if you live/can react to the initial burst, at best that mesmer has blurred frenzy, a stunbreak, a half full shatter that they might sacrifice for distortion, and a long cast invisibility that you can see. If they tried to daze you so shatters did more damage, they probably don't have a stunbreak at all because that mystery slot on their bar is MoD.

I see what you're saying though. There's a difference between "if you live" and "if you can react." and "there was fair warning you were going to be hit by this." I'm just thinking about how that is going to affect the core mesmer's build if the explosiveness is made more predictable, since it almost renders them helpless to do (and since you can scope that opposing team has a core mes the moment match starts, and be prepared to twitch if you get +ed.)

> Upon this, the Mesmer in that video, I wanted to point out that his burst is actually slow in that video compared to some of the better Mesmers we have rolling around. There are some of them, like Mur as example, who when you get burst, you seriously instantly die. Health goes from 100% to 0% immediately. There is no reaction time.

gonna watch this in a min.

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> What if stealth just made you slightly transparent and untargetable, but we could still see you?

no.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> Alright, now give every stealth class +30% max hp, extra 200 toughtness and some sustain to match no stealth classes.

yes.

You're out of your mind if you think I'm going to even touch thief with the health pool it has now if I cant use stealth to manage it.

> @"Skyronight.6370" said:

> An easy way to fix one shot mantra mesmers and other 0 counterplay builds is to simply limit the damage you can take from stealth.

Backstab and Deaths Judgement can no longer kill opponents with this rationale, so not as easy as you think.

Also most opponents reveal themselves and do follow up damage that hits you well after they are out of stealth so you won't see much change from this. Itll only really hurt:

Stealthmaul

Backstab

DJ

Also, what about classes that dont have the stealth generated by them? Do they get a damage nerf because a thief tossed feathers right when they were bursting?

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> I am seriously getting tired of builds that can stealth in at you from 4000 some range and instantly drop your health from 100% to 0% with no tells.

>

> It's a bad design that makes for a bad game that isn't fun to play.

>

Eh, I think its mostly tolerable, as long as you see them stealth, because all the damage is frontloaded and they have to blink or otherwise be near you to maximize it, which puts them in arms reach with no defense. They have to be within 1200 range to burst you, which is a reasonable area to scan unless they start from behind an obstacle.

I do, however, agree that it can easily be frustrating, especially when the general consensus for other classes doing this from stealth is that it's unacceptable.

I guess we can nerf power spike so people cant just mash a button to add DPS ~~without aiming~~ and go from there? I'm not for touching power variants of mesmer too much though. It's one of the only high risk specs they have and I think playing high risk should be encouraged.

Edit: Forgot mantras now require you to aim iirc

[doubleposted.]

> @"JETWING.2759" said:

> Direct to point...

> It's Ok those damage at 1500 range?

> * 6252 Long Range Shot.

> * 3050 Rapid Fire.

> * 3194 One Wolf Pack.

> Obs: We lost the game when he from nothing got those damage.

> https://ibb.co/S0wTnPH

> https://ibb.co/FWZD32C

> https://ibb.co/Fh4V2RR

> https://ibb.co/q1TTRQ2

Those are all single target damaging moves.

If you lost the game because your ranger sank that damage into one person, the other four people weren't doing their jobs.

That being said, they do a lot of damage, yes. I'm not sure if that warrants a shave just yet though.

> @"Ashimmu.4219" said:

>Ranged, I feel, must be lower than melee, because it provides some degree of safety, which must come at a price.

I also lean toward agreeing with this, with some exceptions made if the ranged move is slow or heavily telegraphed

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> In pvp matches remove the ability to whisper or even chat to the enemy team during the match.

> Inside you own team there should be some kind of negative karma report system where if you get enough hits you start to build up some kind of punishment or something that only matches you with people who have a similar number of reports.

> If only truly toxic people could only be matched with other toxic people the problem would be solved fairly quickly.

>

> I usually only report people if the toxicity gets to a level where it starts to sound more like harassment or gets racial etc. There are no needs to say somethings swearing is ok but you know when you go to far the moment you even think to type it.

>

> Ideally people who want to be toxic will continue to be toxic until they are properly punished for it showing such improper behavior. You dont learn not to do something wrong if you dont get punished for doing it.

>

> Outside of matches its just dependent on people to not have have a god complex tbh

> The number of people ive seen on Team USA (or at least going by the guild tag) act like butts to other players even in just free for all arena let alone in even unranked matches just because "hey look at me good at the game" is beyond me.

> The idea that "you dont play the way i do" thus "I can bully, be toxic, and harass" mentality is just one of the many things that ruins pvp imo at least when i see it. I also see it more often than i like.

>

> I know it happens in all competitive games but gw2 has to be one of games where i see it far more often than i would like to see it.

Basically all of this.

At this point, the only thing that is going to stop people from being as ugly as they can be to people they dont like or are frustrated with is to limit the way they can express that frustration, allowing players to refuse to play with or against certain players, or by swiftly punishing them with something that detracts from their gameplay experience the more frequently or intensely they vent that toxicity.

There's a reason you don't see a whole lot of toxicity on the forums atm. each of those things is enforced here. The worst you can do here is float a really bad suggestion.