Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> A lot of this stuff is actually in progress right now. Hopefully we'll be able to give more details soon.

> [Things in progress]

> P.S. Yes, everything takes longer than we'd like to finish. We know.

That's appreciated, Thank you for the communication. Keep up the good work while we continue arguing.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> Fact is : Every thief takes SB becouse its free mobility

I mean I don't take SB but \shrug

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> Even dagger skills like the f1 burst should be dogged if possible and it can be hard to clearly see the f1 and the standard dagger 2

> omega might boosted big damage at the press of a single button is not ok. The fact that they can press a single button and get lethal levels of damage on every skill is a boon issue that needs to be looked into.

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> However being able to deal up to 4k-5k unblockable damage by "dodging" really often with all of the other things that are more or less vague like Dagger 2 vs Dagger burst really gets unfair.

This is a fair point, and I'm not going to challenge it. Might gen on warrior, spellbreaker in particular, still needs balancing. Dagger could also use a better telegraph on F1 and 2, as well as a visual difference that lets you know which one is more pertinent to dodge.

> People that say "Dodge right! Learn warrior! Get better!" Have those facts going above their head completely.

Going to disagree with you here, though. The people that have leveraged complaint in -this- thread, however are eating rush and reckless dodge. Both of those are telegraphed, and it requires heavy might stacks to hit you for 4-5k. The mechanics of those attacks are fine, but the boon application is exaggerating it. We're expecting that to come down across the board anyway for the Q1 balancing.

>it doesn't take incredible precision or reflex to play something that has so much damage, avoidance and utility altogether.

It does not take _precision_ , but it does take prediction, reflex, and a heavily strategic mindset which are also aspects of skillful play. Getting hit-in general- by a class with highly telegraphed moves in an environment where the majority of classes have options to act faster than those moves can connect requires a significant amount of foresight on the warrior's part (apart from the outliers you touched on above.)

> You only can dodge two times in a short time, there's at least 6 attacks that hits for minimum 4k from the start of the fight or after FC Tether, most of them are unblockable which cuts blocking and force into i-frames or evades, core axe cleave with 25 Might alone is 15k critical on base heavy armor, that should say much about damage.

The argument that 25 stacked might spellbreaker, while it needs a look for how easily it can generate that might, is flawed when in the same argument you act like there aren't traits, sigils, and runes that give you endurance or vigor fairly frequently on most classes. Weigh that argument properly before making it. 25 stacked might war vs baseline dodges isn't a fair comparison. There's only one class right now that does not have some way to directly enhance its endurance uptime through its normal rotation, and that's disregarding sigils.

(This is why necro isn't balanced, because it has the least access to additional endurance and shroud doesn't provide nearly enough stability, so it suffers extra hard against this.)

No matter what the damage gets adjusted to, warriors are going to need to hit you hard for getting in range. I advise everyone with a ranged burst option to consider how the balance will get shifted if a warrior in range doesn't hit you for worrying amounts of damage up close, but still has to accept worrying amounts of damage from 1200 range, plus stealth, target breaks/forced target shifts and the like.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> Because warrior does not have blinks/shadowsteps, stealth, agies, range (unless you're memeing on rifle), combo fields and pretty much any other neat skill various other professions have. Their main option is to get in and fight in melee range. This has to be punishing for other professions that can kite and essentially dictate the terms of the fight. If warrior didn't smack people then what would even be the point of playing it? You would burn all your gap closers and defenses to finally chase and lock down an opponent to what? Tickle them with a feather? It **HAS** to be punishing to be locked down or hit by a warrior or warrior would be pointless to play.

^

> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> > > Disengage and loose the node. Great idea yeah. How do you counter an unblocable attack as a melee class???

> >

> > https://gyazo.com/c2e6b3f4d4e596b773788d4ffe44ccdd

> >

> > https://gyazo.com/a36419c913fa8dbafe905274c9091997

> >

> > \shrug

> >

> Maybe you should try to make sentences if you want to communicate with someone else than yourself.

>

Sorry, I thought you'd be able to make the connection between what I said before and two skill icons that you have on your bar in that screenshot that I referred to in that previous post, that would answer your question about what you can do vs unblockable attacks as melee rev without losing the node. I will not make that assumption again.

Unrelenting Assault and Darkrazor's Daring both give you options to deal with Reckless impact, apart from the obvious of __not being where the warrior is going when he dodges__ . swiftness alone will get you out of that 180 range.

I hope that cleared things up.

Also rampage is gone now so this should be even easier because wars cant force you to burn evades on it.

> @"OddFinrir.6801" said:

> The issue with warrior damage is **the might stacking** ..

> ...it only takes a handful of attacks to kill any player and they do this while **regening massive amounts of health** that nearly negates bleed and poison damage.

This in particular is what I see as a problem. F1 shouldnt gen might on you AND heal you at the same time, especially when you can run healing signet. That's not fair to any class that needs to play ranged or depends on slow burn dots or lots of low damage hits racking up.

Definitely should still hit you like a truck if rush connects though. I earned that/you deserve that.

More classes should put self-conditions on themselves on their utilities.

(Also necro needs fixes badly because it is mechanically exploitable but more on that later.)

> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> Disengage and loose the node. Great idea yeah. How do you counter an unblocable attack as a melee class???

https://gyazo.com/c2e6b3f4d4e596b773788d4ffe44ccdd

https://gyazo.com/a36419c913fa8dbafe905274c9091997

\shrug

> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> Everything is fine, let's move on.

Not true. For Great Justice is not fine. Magebane Synergy is not fine.

Getting hit by things you can see a mile away? Fine. Reckless dodge? Also fine, and as long as classes exist that can deliver bursts from range or stealth I will not change my mind on that for anybody.

Old rampage was also obv not fine thats why we hit you for ~~45 DAMAGE NOW WHEEZE~~ less now

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> no one can dodge every hit no matter what class you are playing or against, you going to be hit, so just dodge isn't an argument, the problem is the warrior dmg, they hit more than any class out there, while you need 10 hits to kill them they will need only 3 to kill you, that's the problem, so they can kill you with way less effort

Okay.

> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > on this topic warrior players think they are more skilled than anyone, "just dodge lol", while every skill of warrior will hit for 5k minimum so can you dodge every hit? it's impossible, you have 2 dodges while they have 10 skills+ to dmg, so you dodge 2 of them and get stomped

> >

> > You don't need to -just- dodge everything. You can block, invuln, use a skill with an evade, blind, immob, interrupt with daze or cc, move out of the way with a port or attack from range on almost every class to date.

> > If a warrior is close enough to you to land anything on you that isnt a gap closer, and are currently attacking you, you're disadvantaged. If you don't dodge a gap closer that hits you for a lot, you're disadvantaged.

> > Play the game and evade the telegraphed things. Wars can't burst you from stealth or instantly port to you, so you have just as much information of that whole battle situation as that warrior, if not more than them. Let them have the big damage for getting near you and getting hits in. Otherwise they're just going to be objectively worse than the classes who have just as much damage output but can do it from 1200 range or stealth.

> >

> >

>

> [That's what I did, but I died still lmao...](https://imgur.com/a/ZOB5r5F)

> I was so stupid to think that it wasn t worth it to dodge some one else's dodge.

7 times.

for 2k on average each time you didn't do it.

On a build that has an evade on a weapon set, an evade on demand, and an AOE that spams daze. And if your other weapon was staff another evade and a block.

**Idk what to tell you man**. Its not like you missed an evade once and got hit for all your HP. That fight had to be long for a warrior to dodge on you seven times.

that skill has a 180 degree radius btw so he was hugging you with those dodges.

> @"Tharan.9085" said:

> No I cant kill them, they teleport.

The game continues

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> on this topic warrior players think they are more skilled than anyone, "just dodge lol", while every skill of warrior will hit for 5k minimum so can you dodge every hit? it's impossible, you have 2 dodges while they have 10 skills+ to dmg, so you dodge 2 of them and get stomped

You don't need to -just- dodge everything. You can block, invuln, use a skill with an evade, blind, immob, interrupt with daze or cc, move out of the way with a port or attack from range on almost every class to date.

If a warrior is close enough to you to land anything on you that isnt a gap closer, and are currently attacking you, you're disadvantaged. If you don't dodge a gap closer that hits you for a lot, you're disadvantaged.

Play the game and evade the telegraphed things. Wars can't burst you from stealth or instantly port to you, so you have just as much information of that whole battle situation as that warrior, if not more than them. Let them have the big damage for getting near you and getting hits in. Otherwise they're just going to be objectively worse than the classes who have just as much damage output but can do it from 1200 range or stealth.

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> so, how do people rate warriors? skilful because they are "easy" to read and skill are telegraphed or noob stompers because of high dmg and passives?

They are both of those.

It's a double edged sword. Every class is a noob stomper at low level. Warrior just does it the easiest because its moves are the bluntest and people who can't predict what they will do and react accordingly will down. At high level, because its moves are so blunt, the warrior becomes predictable and players can shut it down.

It's like playing a heavy in smash. You have big damage that'll hit people that can't dodge, but the more prepared your opponent is, the more creative you have to be with mindgames and prediction to make any of that damage stick and the more exploitable your hitbox is.

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

>it requires no effort

> I have over 10k matches played

> 

Imagine getting hit by rush and having a problem with the fact that it hit you for 4k, while simultaneously claiming the class that hit you for 4k with a heavily telegraphed move is low effort.

Dodging is low effort too lmao

The only thing that would make this better is if you played Herald.

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> You can already haste and Shadowmeld for multiple backstabs.

Yeah, but now I can basilisk stab/stealth on steal/stab and it's basically a shatter mes gank, especially if I take hidden killer.

Plus if I see you anywhere 1200 range I'm porting right to you with shadowstep for it.

I don't think that's going to work out well in the game. People already have a problem with pistol whip. Let's not do that.

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> A thief wielding a Shortbow **Should not be able to duel**.

I'm not taking this argument seriously anymore if that's your mentality for this. We were here before in like 2015 with people claiming that "thieves shouldn't be able to 1v1 because shortbow" and I've already been through that debate, probably all its derivatives, and experienced firsthand what having a character that can do nothing but run because of the potential of one of their weapon sets feels like. If you want to be able to chase them off or kill if they miss a skill/their cds are up, fine, that's what I want too. But let's not go the "My class can't duel thieves, thieves shouldn't be able to duel -anyone- because they can run" route. Anet tried it once and Thieves deleted their characters. There are people playing that class that want to have fun too.

Also because

>mobility to counter low mobility classes

of that^

> Guardian has no way to reveal, DH does on the other hand. DH is terrible.

Then buff DH? They built a whole spec around punishing thief/mes for guard, and you want to gut thieves more because DH on its own doesn't meet your expectations?

You'll also need to nerf FB btw. Glad we're on the same page on that.

> Ranger's don't really run Sic'Em anymore.

They sure do.

> There is really no difference between cheesing stealth and "cheesing" evade frames tbh. They are both close enough to invuln frames anyway.

Not true. Evades have telegraphs and punishable windows that are clearly defined(on thief). As long as they cannot be chained together infinitely as was the case in Staff/Staff, then I think those are fair game. Keep in mind thief has the same health pool that you do and doesn't get access to aegis, invulns, or blocks on demand. evading/stealth is their damage mitigation and they don't have large windows for one of those.

But pick one, or the other. If you don't like dealing with evades, stealth needs to be less punished. If you don't like dealing with stealth, evades need to be less punished.

> Right now, thief is in a very ... strong place.

nnno. As it stands most specs in the game have a build or playstyle that can at the very least infinitely stall thieves, including guardian. The only one that does not at this time is necro.

I'm fine with being stalled or chased off gameplay wise. Necro should be able to do that too. I wouldn't call "they have builds that don't cause them to violently crash and burn if played right" them being in a strong place or even oppressive, though.

> Once again, I never said it was an issue.

Okay.

> I'm not talking about giving auto attacks reveal. But every class having 2(ish) weapons each baseline that applies revealed for X amounts of seconds.

Not every class has two ish weapons each that have unblockable skills. I'm fine with more reveal being added to some key utilities for classes that lack it and suffer vs thieves (Necromancer), but I'm not willing to go that far.

> I don't play Thief nearly enough to know what to buff.

Go play it. It's frustrating to see threads like this from a player that claims to be legendary rank. I invite you to go ~~suffer~~ try the class you're asking to nerf before suggesting blanket nerfs like this or thinking that thieves shouldn't have the right to duel a class 1v1 because of shortbow. Stand in a symbol for a DPS guard and see how much time you get before dodging is mandatory to not die.

> @"azzardome.9184" said:

> pls dont share build

This.

Let people figure builds out themselves.

Tired of watching people play meta because they don't want to try some of the unused skills and just want to win, and then end up getting builds nerfed by playing against people who don't want to learn to counterplay just as much as the original group didn't want to feel out their own build.

It's not going to hurt you to let people think Chrono died.

I love this

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> How is D/P without stealth access? Are you sure you're playing the class?

?

If you get what you want and classes get baseline reveal on their attacks, You will frequently have situations where Dagger Pistol (and pistol pistol sets with an external stealth source) will be preemptively revealed. These classes have very little damage mitigating skills on their weapon layouts as it stands.

D/P without stealth access intermittently is the situation you will create in game if classes get baseline reveal on their weapon sets, and them having no defensive option because your opponent tapped you and revealed you isn't going to work. What did you think I was talking about?

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.

> Once again, not what I said. But yes, you should never couple high burst from invis with evade frames and almost unrivaled mobility. Nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff. Not necessarily more evade frames though, as that is kinda over the top already.

That was your implication considering the situation you are proposing. If you're expecting that "nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff", you should probably start coupling your nerf suggestions with buff suggestions, otherwise I am going to assume that you want a flat nerf.

> Once again, I never said it was an issue. I said stealth has VERY few counters and adding counter-play is always a good idea. Like having unblockables to counter blocks, mobility to counter low mobility classes and stability to counter ccs.

The framing in your original post leads people to that conclusion. Stealth counters have been slowly added to the game and buffed over time. Engie, Ranger, Revenant, Warrior, and Guardian can now easily reveal thieves, some of those in wide area or on cleave.

> Maybe if you stop being so god-damned biased in every single one of your posts you would be able to see that.

Just working with what you give us. If you'd specified in your original post a more comprehensive rework people wouldn't be responding like that. A lot of us don't want to cheese stealth, but given we're part of that low HP pool set of classes, and all our damage mitigation except for instant reflexes is active or relies on stealth (which, again, classes right now can decide to turn off with a button press) , and any evade builds we come up with that don't require excessive stealth amass complaints on the forums-

y'know, work with us here.

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

I'm telling you right now I'm going to use that for multibackstabs. Just being completely honest.

Haste Deadeye 40k shadow meld multibackstabs.

You wont stop me.

Or maybe ill stab you then leave and watch you flail madly trying to reveal me then port back and stab you again.

Where am I?

Headmindyagame.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Odds are this thread is made by a Fire Weaver who got his 10 stacks of burning thrown back in his face.

*Quiet chuckling in the corner*

> @"azzardome.9184" said:

> Think about it, mes utilites are utter garbage compared to other classes and what they used to be.

*More chuckling*

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Lich King.1524" said:

> > it has to be a normal way to counter play them, if no then need to nerf them a a bit

>

> you play the right build or cry in the corner along with necro and mesmer, lol.

**Necro, and necro alone,** gets a pass. They are developed around a meta that no longer exists and suffer extra hard vs thieves.

Mesmer does not get that same pass. All of their denominations have plenty of tools to deal with pistol whip, especially mirage.

Everyone else has some variant of mobility, punishing people for hugging them, sustain or invuln to deal with this.

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> All of a sudden it's OP because people don't know how it works and won't learn :lol:

This. That evade window has been the same since 2013. It faded into obscurity until dagger pistol got nerfs that made it considerably less appetizing to use in all the revealed spam flying around.

1.5 seconds of evade. Cannot start up instantly. Telegraphed.

Adapt.

> @"memausz.7264" said:

> Look, for people whose APMs and mindset can scale into really high level gameplay, good for you, that's fantastic. But at some point, the build allows even less skilled players to consistently outperform all the other classes... an in this case, dagger pistol daredevils in particular using Roll for Initiative can just SPAM Pistol Whip without even thinking about it. Not only does it CC, but it also provides evade frames AND it has such high synergy with stealth and ports AND with a particular choice of traits, cleanses conditions. You can't fight it by dodging, they will out-evade you, they can remove revealed with their elite skill, so that's not much of a counter... I suppose the idea is that they are supposed to be glass, so just break them first? But that is broken down by all the other things it has working for it. Please nerf these trait lines and increase the initiative for Pistol Whip (because it's also a problem on core thief as well). Thank you.

What a world of difference not having heavy Elixir stab uptime to steamroll game mechanics makes.

> @"verskore.4312" said:

> Ok, tell us how to put pressure on a s/p thief oh great gamer

Figure out what it means. The evade window hasn't changed since 2013.

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > > Adding reveal on a lot of the base line weapon skills would be a very welcoming change.

> >

> > Okay but give thieves more active mitigation instead.

>

> Like evade frames on almost every weapon set?

Yeah. I want evades on D/P and P/P too.

Yknow. The ones that are sitting ducks without stealth access.

Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> Anet needs to realize that nobody gives a kitten about their nodes beyond that they give you rewards if you win and serve as an excuse to fight other players. It seems they've forgotten that pvp is player vs player, and it's the fights **around** the node that matter...and those fights are garbage yet somehow still continually dropping in quality anyway.

>

> From a 'I enjoy strategy' standpoint, GW2 has absolutely amazing spvp. Rotations, matchups - great examples. But actually playing in said strategy against other players? Absolutely horrible. Like asking a commander's opinion - "I'm having a great time!" while the soldiers are getting demolished.

It's almost like listening to people saying they wanted to prevent people from constructing premades was a bad idea.

Nah that can't be it

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Thief sleeper builds.

There's a few of those if you're willing to run glass and give up defenses. They're all less telegraphed than pistol whip.

I'm glad that people can still point out where efforts have been made to improve the games balance. It still has a ways to go in terms of adjustment, but its moving and that's always good.

Also I am relatively okay with the removal of the stun on pistol whip. The mitigation is what I care about more than anything.