Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Yet Another Imda Smurf xD.8236" said:

> increase the initiative cost of Shortbow 5.

no. you can have nerfs to shadow arts siphoning.

I'm willing to hold the doomsday calls until the patch goes live and I firsthand get to experience what it feels like

As long as they are willing to make adjustments promptly after the initial launch, throwing a fit because you lost access to a skill that pitched you high damage with CC or invuln is probably jumping the gun.

Rampage survived this, pretty sure everything else will. if it doesnt, the balance team is likely going to have an ear to the ground to tune up whatever is the most useless.

And for the people saying "bunker meta weh", healing got toned down too. Now interrupting key skills ideally will make your opponent crash and burn. and if you dont use your skills properly, your opponent lives.

This ain't bunker meta. Bunker meta was lower damage, high healing.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> **Mesmer:**

> * Nothing seemed too outstanding to comment on, until I got to this: **Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes** = Woah woah! Is that... necessary? I mean a lot of people with long time aggression vs. Mirage are probably thinking "YEAH IT DESERVES IT. SCREW MIRAGE" but really guys, without the ability to double dodge roll when needed, the Mirage is going to frequently be caught in the kinds of bursting that it cannot avoid. I think Arenanet needs to seriously reconsider this very heavy handed nerf.

*sigh*.

I want to be petty and I'll continue being petty later but, putting that aside:

But mirrors grant evade to mes, and some of their utilities outright create these. I think being forced to tag mirrors to cover the rest of their evade sounds suitable.

If it's too much though, at least try adding easier access to vigor to bridge the gap before going the emergency revert route.

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> Don't even like mirage and I already feel bad w/that -1 dodge. Goodness gracious, that is def too harsh right there.

Harsh like fighting them on a melee low mobility spec has been for the past couple years?

*In the distance, cackling* **"Tradeoffff! Tradeofff!"**

> @"Nebilim.5127" said:

> Why was stealth largely untouched?

Probably because the damage you can do out of it got shaved too, and stealth alone is detrimental to contest.

Def up for shaving that if needs be though.

Also, **PLEASE CHECK OTHER THREAD** if you haven't already.

Theres some juicy stuff in those too. I know Cal mentioned it but I need the soulbeasts to know they can only use one pet now.

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> Aside from how terrible balance is inevitably going be after basically flipping the board on this game, can we please stop blanket nerfing all hard cc skills to negligable damage. Cast time, cool down, range, and cc duration all need to be weighed against each other to determine appropriate damage levels. All this does is make long cool down well telegraphed CC's like prime light beam complete trash compared to more spammable and less telegraphed stuff like overcharged shot.

After this patch goes live we can see which CC skills fall off the charts.

I don't think prime light beam is one of them though. 40 second cd launch is still hot, especially since it hits multi, drops a fire field on high heat, and can be precast from stealth.

Also its a 1.25 windup cast for 1200 range, unblockable less if you got quickness. If anyone should be complaining about their cc skills lacking damage its reaper but it's too early to even say that.

Let them make all the cc hit for null. I want to see how that plays out.

> @"Foshizle.9802" said:

> I don't understand Shadow Arts nerf. It's currently a meta trait on more than 1 build, none of which really uses "Shadow's Rejuvenation" let alone "Merciful ambush".

> Given the overall nerfs and thief play style remaining the same, SA will be be even better in perspective than it currently is.

>

> Overall stealth was barely touched, heartseeker ignored (it will hit pretty hard after these nerfs), shadow shot went from 4 to 5 innitiative,... thief meta strength received a very gentle slap compared to other specs.

>

> But overall well done, this was needed.

This. If you're going to hit everyone hit thieves in sa harder. The last thing we need is this getting soured by permastealth.

Im usually not one for proposing thief hits because squishy, but by extension all thieves just got less squishy. They can take more shaving to SA in particular. Leeching venoms and siphoning can probably be dialed back.

Also people who wanted exorbitant nerfs getting them but also getting their cheese nerfed **WHEEZE**

A legend is born.

I have more to say but lemme just-

>Defy Pain: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

>Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes

LOOOL thats hot

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> For the sake of discussion lets say it goes over super well brings just about everything in line. What profession/build are you going to try to pick up and get to work?

I'm going to keep playing what I'm playing. I play things because theyre fun, not necessarily because they work well in the meta.

If things work well in the meta AND are fun, that's just icing.

For example:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption

This one takes resistance first.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Larcenous_Strike

This takes aegis first.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft

This takes Aegis first, but always takes Stab second

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> How is boon removal prioritized? Order of application?

**Bitter crying**

It's by skill, each skill that removes boons has its own application, and some of them dont prioritize aegis..

Corruption is even worse, I think that's just random.

> @"Ghetx.1752" said:

> How useful are those?

>

> 2 boons removed every 18 seconds,with almost every profession having trillion boons with almost 100% uptime.

>

> I'm gonna remove 2 of your boons,you gonna re-apply same boons next second.

>

> I guess that would work with proper premade team,where everyone has boon removal.

boon removal on interrupt is actually great on my daredevil. I can reset spellbreakers every 3 seconds before they build up omegamight. Basically invalidates FGJ too. pair that with bountiful theft and I can __go through blocks on a firebrand, snatch their stab, + two other boons, + a boon on the interrupt and open them to cc in a +1__ . Same for holo, especially since elixir is super short now. I normally use trickster instead of bountiful because I'm stupid (read: most of my utilities are tricks) though. If I needed to run a team comp though, would definitely be deactivating boon tanks.

They dont work on everything, but things that rely on boons to damage or prevent melt some of them are quite useful.

Either a match throw or people fed up with some bs that happened on the map, or genuine afk.

Youll never be able to know really.

ITT> people who could get kited way out into the middle of the map chasing a soulbeast who isnt going to die right away while their points get capped, then when they finally kill him the points tick for more than the kill was worth three times over.

Ijs. Situational is situational. If your opponent is sitting on a capped point and is a bruiser that knows how to live, and he can distract you and one other guy in the middle of the map **while that point ticks for him** , you're not smart for fighting him off point. You're not assisting the team by eventually adding him to spawn q while he's done his job, if you even get to that point. What's going to happen is, while that point is ticking for him, if your teammates lose their skirmish, you're going to:

*Down the guy late at which point you will get wiped off the map by teammates of his coming back to his point.to aid him, or contested before you can decap it

or

*Get +ed before you can down him, lose the skirmish **and** make no headway

If you happen to down him early, he only needs to distract you for 5 ticks for that skirmish to break even on that interaction.

sometimes fighting off point is beneficial. Sometimes it **absolutely isnt** though, and if someone is saying that odds are someone on your team is being taken on a field trip 1v1ing or 1v2ing off in a corner vs something -built to stall them- while their map control is evaporating.

I dont understand how people came to the conclusion that pushing kills is more important than conquest. Snowballing doesnt happen unless the teams are egregiously imbalanced, and if you do that vs a cohesive group you're going to get outrotated. Quick +ing a fight in a lane is fine, especially if you get the down, but equating suggesting people avoid throwing themselves at brick walls for 5 points while their points and objectives get taken a low rank strat is insane.

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"Tycura.1982" said:

> > Tbh I'm expecting this split to give rise to old demons. Are you ready for the current underdogs to rule the meta? Because I for one welcome our drood overlords.

>

> WDYM druid? Currently renegade is better than druid.

>

> It can be an unkillable tank with jalis kalla or a sustained but mediocre damage bunker with shiro kalla. It can even be a mallyx kalla which can output pretty high (and mostly aoe) condi pressure.

People are indeed sleeping on renegade because of how strong herald is. the moment herald gets pushed down though, expect Kalla renegades to start showing up everywhere.

> @"Xentera.4560" said:

> I have to say that so far I’m really enjoying watching those who can only win if they duoQ against a group of random players, try in various illogical ways to explain how they are somehow entitled to have that unfair advantage. And how removing it will be the end of pvp.

>

> For that 10th time... play with your friends all you like, but do it against a team that’s doing the same.

>

> Solo vs solo

> Duo vs duo

> Team vs team

See, that makes sense, yes. But __maybe not right now, we don't have the playerbase for it yet.__ All youll do is fragment the playerbase into people waiting 20-30 mins in q to fight another 3+man, and then have all of the people tired of that ((but not tired enough to leave)) jump into solo, queue sync, and either secretly pubstomp you or have someone throw a game by not playing as hard as they should if they get team split.

Then people will be back here talking about "dont let friends lists q together" or something crazy.

If swiss gives teams a reason to do their team thing and is frequent enough that it runs relatively smoothly then fine. We can take them out of Solo Q. Not before, though.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> I know the way it currently is, is for balance. As someone who enjoys build crafting though would it be too "broken" to have more granular stat selection? Like, bring down the amount of stats all the amulets give then add a "backpiece" that is a lesser version of all the amulets. Idk, that might not work. I just think it would add some more build flavor to be able to decide my stat distribution a little more.

It sounds good, but keep in mind the whole reason we lost and suffered reworks to a bunch of the addons is because some of that granularity let people make some really busted builds. remember vampirism thieves?

Some granularity is fine. Probably not to __equipment__ though. The equipment pool should be small enough that, after a skirmish, you should be able to tell what amulet /rune set your opponent might be running and be able to form a strategy to play around that.

If you want granularity, I think a better focus would be on the traits that are right now useless for pvp on most classes/the weapon sets that are useless in pvp for some classes. that reduces the chance people find niche combinations that turn out to be overpowered and get the class nerfed significantly while Anet tries to figure out what the problem is.

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> Thanks i hope you follow through and stop posting here.

I think we know who actually needs to be ignored now actually.

Also deleted, not worth it.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> no. the game lost players when teams went away.

>

> lost more when duo above 1600 went away.

>

> this is not the time to reduce groups.

>

> no need to think, i saw and remember what happens.

He's right you know.

The more people try to fragment a ranked, team orchestrated game to cater to what constitutes a fever dream of carrying 5 strangers to victory, the more people who want to play ranked with their friends will leave/the more they expose themselves to covert match manipulation/wintrading.

The game's balance needs to be addressed first, but __the people who want to premake to do competitive ranked need somewhere to go that isn't time gated.__

The moment you consider your solo needs more important than theirs is when the PvP community dies. Even the people who __wanted__ solo q permanently think rank doesn't mean anything right now, and they're the ones that resigned their games to chance thinking it would fix them getting stomped.

Maybe teams should not be able to match up against pugs. We can discuss how to address that too. The answer is definitely not "boot them out of competitive entirely" though. that won't work.

I think your opponents need to dodge.

I feel bad for the reaper because his burst is locked into him needing to hug you.

That mirage was absolutely dead weight and let you freecast though. Let his teammate down with that one.

Mallyx Competitive, that's what I like to see.

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> Man alot of disinformation about mesmers.

> Guy said we have 7 buffs perma and 7 conditions.

>

> Idk how to combat that. Just gonna ignore all the lies and slander and just say all condition builds are bad not just mirage i play mirage so it hits closer to home. Take note of the very wrong opinions Anet, and the fact you listening to the folks who said mesmers have permanent boons and 7 conditions.

>

> By all means please share more this is as much for me as it is for anet.

The whole reason condi mirages were so aggravating to fight (and remain largely that way) is because the avenues they use to deal their damage are less avoidable, less telegraphed, and more frequently applied than raw burst, while their playstyle remains largely passive and forgiving to the user in the sense that cc does not guarantee they will even need to spend utilities to avoid follow up damage.

Of course they don't sit permanently at 8 boons. they also dont hit you with 7 conditions at once. Those things not being true doesn't mean the playstyle they were afforded throughout their patches was balanced or fair for anyone that needed to fight them.

Competitive design that allows you to play a ranged game without clear telegraphs, but also allows you multiple avenues to avoid damage should you fail to play the ranged game properly and let someone cc you/get in close is poor, period. Classes with good melee game should have limited options to deal with range, and ranged classes should have limited options to deal with melee. condition mirages (and soulbeasts, but that's another problem entirely) have both.

And condi mirage isn't even dead. It's just not holding __as much__ attention as it did before because it's not __as easy__.

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> I legit checked what year is it. Condi mirage is using Wanderer or Deadshot for the bleed on crit thing.

I stand corrected, fair enough.

> Meta condi mirage doesn't even run blind trait. You also said distortion twice.

Three times. It was a joke.

I'd defend power mes more quickly than I would condi mirage. I thought so then, and I still do now.

People that say that "you should have just adapted to what condi mes used to be" very often seem to omit that **the skills that they used to put burst or condition damage on you often had little telegraph or frequent reapplication time, while maintaining heavy sustain on the class that played it.** Remember, Chaotic Interruption got removed from the game because it could lock you with no warning.

(Some of those people also turn around and have an issue with pistol whip while their whole kit is full of various flavors of invulnerable and blink but that's my hangup and is beside the point.) Staff, Scepter? You can kite all day and the opponent has to burn their cleanses just to stay alive while they try to get to you, at which point you can blink away and do it all over. Even if you get hit you're probably running carrion, so you have a nice HP buffer to press your distortion or staff 2, or block, or press a distortion button, or a blind button if you're traited for that. Or a stun button if you're traited for that, or dodge and negate any followup damage you may receive. Or press another distortion button if you traited for that.

Power Mirage/mes? Sure you can nuke from stealth. you whiff though and you're going to be sweating bullets. Its a brittle balance, but its more balanced than what you had.

(And __still__ have, for that matter. Condi mirage isnt dead.)

No matter what the avenue of "too much" you pick, if your build gives you extreme damage output and extreme sustain on top of it, it needs a nerf. Just because you have the ability to rage out and play something you consider -even worse- for the game doesn't automatically mean that the thing you've resigned yourself to playing is fair. I don't see what you're attempting to get out of using "I could exploit you even harder but I __choose__ to be a degree less exploitative, but if you don't shut up and let me I'm going to omegaexploit you" as an argument. That makes you sound like you've had it too easy.

It just means you need another balance pass until you don't have the ability to build in such a way that your damage delivery isnt reasonably avoidable, and then pair that with a playstyle that requires a significant degree more difficulty to combat than it does to play.

> @"Thomas.1374" said:

> Ok, I'll try out the classes, are there any you would advise me not play while I'm not experienced?

Right out of the gate:

To learn:

Engineer is difficult.

Mesmer is difficult

Thief is difficult.

Ele is difficult.

Warrior is easy.

Necro is easy.

Ranger is easy.

Revenant is medium.

Guardian is medium.

All of those classes have the potential to be difficult to fight at high level, with Thief, Ranger, and Mesmer being hardest to matchup if you have not specifically labbed against them, and necro being the easiest to matchup in most cases.

Some classes have variants that are overperforming right now, but as a general rule you should be able to perform reasonably well on any class, and that should become truer with the new patch.