Eramonster.2718

Ahem, guys? Ranger here...where do I?...nevermind....

Both way is viable, it's "harder" when the group splits up, vulnerable to be focused by the NPCs. Well, if no one calls out which plan to follow, you only can hope they know and follows.

> @"Nemezijus.6851" said:

> Two days ago, four of us sat down in one room to play and decided to do t3 daily fractals. my friends were mesmer (fractal level 100), elementalist (100), guardian (53) and me - power daredevil (25, full ascended berserker and meta build). I wanted to see how much harder is t3 with respect to t2 so we went for t3. We get the 5th player - another thief. During the snowblind last boss I got downed twice (thieves are squishy and it was my first time on this level). So there comes the LFG thief with his message to us : " can we kick out the thief" (me), "because he is not doing his rotations and doesn't have proper build?". Just like that the fun is going down, because why enjoy the game when you should just blindly mash predefined rotations and pretend you are having fun. We kicked him out and another guardian appeared and we successfully did snowblind and all the other 4 fractals (incl nightmare) without any wipe.

> Experiences like this makes me just sad panda. Whatever happened to "lets just have fun" LFG? This smell's like raid LFG attitude leaking into fractals and its absolutely not inviting new players. I wonder how do new chronomancers get "welcomed" when they try to learn their build for fractals or raids?

Nothing to do with raid or other game mode imo. Just happened he's the same class and made a comparison based on his standard. A typical case anywhere, like how you judged him, after him judging you.(Not dropping comments since I don't know what actually happened, what caused the dps variation etc) Call it a draw, unfair as both is, he made a judgement based on his oppinion, and so did you made a judgement to raid.

Nevertheless it's unfair to place standard & expectations into a LFG party, mainly because we won't know what class/build is going to join. Unless there's indications for it (exp'd speedrun need x, need ps war for might etc).

Completed a full PuG Nightmare CM with no healer before, avg 2-4 wipes per boss tho. Had someone explaining battle plan after the wipes on strat so I'll assume some could be new. My point is there's numerous ways to do things, but in the end its up the player's decision on how it should be done. Efficiency is always debatable.

Gathering 10 different people, will get you 10 ideals.

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> What I'd like to see? All classes being fully replaceable without substantially impacting your squad.

By making every class replaceable without substantially impacting your squad, will also allow overlapping classes since everything is "balanced".

> @"Seera.5916" said:

> I know what the word elite means. I just stated that in an MMO and in GW2, people can have different definitions of what it means to be elite and that none of them are wrong.

What's said is true, just like how the OP can be interpreted differently. (Instead of being used as a description, it can also be interpreted Raid as the cause.)

and here's an example :

>What really bites me also is that 80% of this raid comunity are wannabes that suck hard actually.

As I said before, the fractal Meta is shifting. Players are adapting to the changes, and this will effect the contents (Fractal in this case). Give it time and things will get better when it stabilize. It's a common occurrence (and not only in GW2), and to me it's good to have a change(it means the Game is changing and not stagnant). Players will always find ways to optimize, Meta Elitism had always been in Fractals I'm not sure why some had forgotten or denies it, there was a time LFG was filled with Reapers and power based are shunned in T4s (remembered the kicks). Currently, classes specializations are in a race to secure their position for fractals (druids, power warriors etc, class diversity and not just c.Reapers) to be made viable. Which also effect Non-Meta setups (if 300-400 toughness is needed?, might distribution to improve dmg, rectify what's casing the deaths etc). There's nothing wrong with doing it without healer, but if the changes made the current progress slower, sticking to the same build(your current meta) will often produce the same result.

Thank you for the links @"Hydroclasm.8572".

Didn't pay attention to the story behind it too... and that ending. :bawling:

NPC of NPC. Mind-blowing. :b

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Nothing wrong with being an elitist and getting kitten done. At this point my argument only lies with the people who are coming in here and telling me that I shouldn't describe Elitist behavior by definition, as Elitism. That is such North American styled butt-hurt entitlement that it disgusts me.

>

> And hey, I live in North America.

Elitism Happening in Fractals.

Raid Elitism Happening in Fractals.

Raid was direct/indirectly pulled in, when used as benchmarking. Hence why there's a few of us (during the start at least) tried to seperate the context.

Vulf.3098 probably was just trying to say its possible to 4man. As for the wipe, we don't know what actually happened in the run, everything is mere speculations for a conjecture.(eg. was the druid not able to go celestial form, unable to generate astral force, class skill and build used from randoms was unclear)

Overall sounds like a normal if not a good run to me with just 1 wipe. In fact, it's more surprising at least to me, if one never had any wipes or deaths before in fractals. Plus, they took measures to work around it and got it completed after.

But just drop it. Its going out of both topic (main post and its own) and the last comment stepped over the line. Fine for thoughts and ideas to clash, but when insults are thrown, it's no longer a debate but an arguement.

There's numerous playstyle and ways to do fractals(same for raid). And often people will look for optimal/efficient ways to do things. Eg. The debate on needing a healer in T4 for efficiency. The unshaken meta in Gw2 so far is to have 25stacks of might. To achieve that, players need to be stacked and if not; close together. Some of the mistlock instabilities prevent that idea (especially social awkwardness) and some find having a 'healer' overcomes the issue plus encourages stacking(for boons). Everyone probably had their own differents scenario(fractal level and encounters) running in their head therefore theres disagreements here and there. Can be done without, but I do find having a healer helpful for some encounters and strategies.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> No one said that at all. Reread the OP statement. This thread was simply about elitist raid meta attitude bleeding into fractal play, which is in my experience, causing general T4 fractal completion to be slower than it was 4 to 6 months ago. This is considering the time accrued from the moment of opening the LFG and searching for a party or creating one, to the time of T4 daily completion.

>

There are changes made to fractal recently : instabilities, avengers changes etc. The META shifted and there are players still adjusting and trying to find ways(new metas) to do it. There's no need to find blames, its more on humans behaviour. It will get better as the metas for fractal stabilized.

And what TexZero.7910 said:

>You do you, they do them. What's the difference between them and you again outside of you calling them elitist ?

Everyone is capable of self thinking. You have your thoughts and perspective on how to do things, others have theirs. If both side find it hard to compromise, find others that do ; same effort.

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> What (in your opinion) are the downsides of removing healing from the game?

2 highly possible scenario if healing is removed :

1) Taking any form of damage in combat will be unforgiving since it's hard to recover. No room for mistakes to happen. Can't expect everyone to be able to play at that level.(This will make players to stop doing some contents like raid, fractals etc and hampering/limiting some game mode WvW etc)

2) Future combat encounters will be made simple and easy to suit the player base. Limited ways to create encounter mechanics. You can compare the content before healing is introduced by doing dungeons/original personal story.

And altho I'm not sure why the need to compare especially w Gw1 (which I felt it's a totally different type of game). Every game have their own combat system and changes made as it goes to suit the game. I prefer not to comment on other games but fair to say every game have their own flaws & system to be dealt with. As for Gw2, the original combat design ain't very impressive, but I can see changes are being made slowly....(so many things still not viable). Let's just say by introducing X function, will allow Y mechanics into the game-play.

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> Ever heard of guard having wall of reflections, for example? Sometimes it's sad to see people not knowing their classes properly. Every class has huge potential for different encounters and basic skills from pre-HoT are still working, quelle surprise!

There was a time when reflect skills are highly valued. Nowadays I'm just grateful too see one used in fractal. And yes, it's sad to see when a player doesn't realize the potential of the class can offer or understanding the mechanics to adapt according to situation. Lucky ones get pointers or guidance, but majority will just be left alone and hope they realize it through exp.

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> >

> Except it isn't true, and **everyone** says it.

> 1) This _need x_ happens since ever. It's how it works in every game. There has always been a Dungeon meta, a Fractal meta, a pvp meta, a WvW meta, actually the most recent meta was RAIDS, and they just carried out what was happening in Fractals and Dungeons.

> ...

> 3) What do you care what other people want to run with? If i want to make a full necro party what's it with you? If what they ask doesn't fit your preference, it's easy **don't join**!

> ...

> 5) As for your example, idiots are everywhere! Don't generalize. Most people will not ask for anything specific. I don't ask for anything specific. Only that you play well.

> But yeah, just yesterday, there was this Mirage on my group and a Reaper joined us, and the guy went "huh Reaper "dps"". I just said to my brother via Discord, "if this guy slips and the Reaper ever outdpses him we kick him out"! In the end the group ran well, we finished everything quickly, and although the Reaper did outdps the Mirage a couple times, everyone finished everything, because despite that initial quip, the guy behaved, and no one snagged the fractal.

>

Pretty much there's to say and :lol: for the mirage and necro run lol.

Back when there's only dungeons in GW2 : zerkers, stacked and lvl80s only even if its for a lvl30 dungeon run or be kicked. There is elitism players everywhere regardless of game, content etc. Just a fractal elitism scenario in this case.

@"Vulf.3098" said:

Think that's what I agree on. Preferable to have a Ranger class for their unique boons. Just players optimizing them with Druid specilization to fit into a squad (by having a Druid to fill the supportive role to provide boons will allow us to fill the dmg role with a competative dps class instead of a Ranger's for optimization)

As for the main topic, Healing should not be removed because of the downsides that will happen if it did.

Agree, just make your own group. There will always be players with fixed mind set, be it meta or not of how things work (extremist/ fanatics for example). Too quick and unfair to blame it on raids, could be from other games with a dedicated healer role but my point is such people are out there ; even before Raid was implemented.

If that's the case, I would prefer for things to stay the way it is for PvE. I know it's not perfect atm but it is better than reverting to the 'core design'. Back then, although it is said you can become anything, in the end there is only 1 role for everyone and that is DPS. The META/optimal way was to kill things quickly as possible using Berserker's stat. You don't need survival (vit / toughness / heal), there are no other optimal DPS options (condi hardly get a tick before things die). Dungeon's LFG :80 zerker or KICK.

Right now , there different options in PvE. There is no dedicated role, players can still be what they want and NOT just DPS. There is "Tank"(sorta) in raid which it's role is to keep the encounter movement in check to keep the situation controlled. Otherwise, try imagine a hectic situation where by players will be running like headless chickens as the boss pick random targets, kited around while killing it. Healing is working fine as of now, being supportive(band aid's for sticky situations) and I do hope all classes will be able to do the same in the future (especially Thief's supportive presence in Raid) to add more variety. The DPS concept is still around, but with the difference, players have the option to lean towards survival, damage or support with specializations.

A good example how an encounter would become if healing is removed will be Unbound Guardian. Similar to Raid's VG (with a slight difference) but changes the encounter totally. As a final boss for a PvE event, the mechanics are totally ignored, targets player at random (watch the targeted players runs around :lol:), and once you overwhelm it with numbers ( you don't need heals), players are even allowed to be stacked together on red orbs. What I think is instead of removing mechanics (like supportive heals which will limits the game-play), I think its better to expand, improvise and add more variety to play.

Before we go on further, first I need to ask the reason to "Removing Healing Spells" because.....?

> @"Vulf.3098" said:

> Druid is brought more for their insane utility than their healing. Same thing for chrono tank.

> Anet has been chipping away from this every major balance patch since PoF. First with chrono losing group distortion along with GotL being reworked so hopefully this trend continues to bring them inline with the other supports in the game.

What's said. As for holy trinity, there's a 'tank role' used in a way to control raid bosses movements, otherwise the bosses are allowed to go on random rampage that will make beating the encounter relying more to RNG. As for healers, the reply Anet given is tricky. Even if it's possible to beat the encounters without supportive healing, it will require the players to perform the task with 0 margin of error(perfectly dodging & evading attack etc), a single mistake will be punished with a death sentence & hampers everyone.

There are only a few classes that can share their heal to others efficiently atm and as you know, druid is among one. It's preferable to have a ranger to provide their unique boons from spirits (diversity in raid?). Sadly, rangers are not offering any boons nor note worthy dps. This is before and altho soulbeast is viable now, a dps role can easily be filled with any 9 classes w specialization out there. Druid offers the same amt of dps(if not lower) than a ranger, therefore players decided to optimize/meta them into supportive healing role to fit into a team. In a way, there is no dedicated healer like in other mmo, where by a healers role is just on healing, just players chosed to optimize druid healing to offer support and sustain. Eg. Altho high end fractals can be done without support, it's alot easier having some one to offer help in someway when one messed up.

Healing stat is in game since the begining, just totally ignored all this while since there's nothing posing a threat to justify the need. Stack and take everything head on knowing they can't kill you or further dumb it down by overwhelming it with numbers. Altho it will make the game much more challenging by removing it, I don't think it's everyones interest to make encounters unforgivable?

> @"Opal.9324" said:

> Only reason I don't raid in this game is because the options for what's considered "meta" seem too limited here from what I've been told.

>Well, my real problem is that in other MMOs, I always have the most fun raiding when I'm the tank. This game seems to have only 1 option for tanking in raids, and it's a class that I don't care much for. There's not really anything I can do about that, and I'm not gonna inconvenience the rest of the team just so I can play what I want to play. I don't do that whole getting carried thing.

Correct me if im wrong. You're interested to play as a tank, but someone told you that your class is not optimal/meta class to be one (tank)?

Just a term, depends on how one interprets. It is possible to kill some bosses with lesser than 10 members. (Eg. Some groups can get the kill done with just 7 members. Therefore they can fill the 3 vacant spots w players and still get it done even if they do not perform.thus 'carried' their share of work). Some might view them as a burden etc. but the fight will go easier with the addition.

imo, everyone contributed to the fight altho some might have contributed less compared to others for the kill. Depending on the situation, not fair to compare dpser's dmg with tank and utility healer/support or someone which died middle of the encounter. As long as its killed within the timer, everyone contributes to the kill no matter what the dps shows. Sorry, for straying off the post topic as we go.

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

I think you're missing the point or to fixate into the idea. I'm not sure if you noticed, what you're trying to introduce is a META (Most Effecient Tactic Avail) aka optimal. In the end its the players who decides how it will be played. Its the player community that got fixated. Your idea is no different than changing the META with a patch, that happens whenever theres a 'balancing patch'. It sounds more like an enforcement tbh and there will be players prefer to do it their way(eg.overlapping classes) and it will still encourage "play this and not how you want". It won't solve anything, only rearranging the problems. In the end, issues will arrise from it.

Ps: Putting suggestions to support an idea helps. (It's more productive to work on the "process" for the desired result, harder the otherway round).

Same for any other games, it depends on the company and community to find joy. (It's enjoyable with friends, guildies, people you trust, making new friends etc.but difficult when either or both side is being skeptical.

> @"Opal.9324" said:

> Only reason I don't raid in this game is because the options for what's considered "meta" seem too limited here from what I've been told. If I can't play the characters I enjoy playing, I simply won't bother.

Nothing is fixed, I feel "meta" is giving a different impression in meaning nowadays. META (Most Effective Tactic Avail), other builds/ method works, just not as effective. There is leniency as long as it's within margin (players can be carried, overlapping classes etc). Personally I find it fun thinkering builds, finding 'cheese' strategy & ways to improve.

The community is more adaptive. When faced with numerous fail attempts & critism, instead of giving up effort is placed. Willing to change builds or meta as reference, change classes w alts etc anything to beat the challenge. LFG is widely accepted in EU because mostly are exp. Numerous fail atempt to learn is not merely 1-5 wipes and call quits, "I have plenty of raid exp already(5 attempts?) and its too hard." Was people dying due to lack of healing or fatal mistake? Will the Dps make it within the timer? If what went wrong isn't noted to be corrected, nothing is learned. Instead of trying to change the encounter to your favor, why not otherwise? Same effort :smile:.

> @"avey.4201" said:

> I'll do raids when I can walk in with a longbow/sword/warhorn or dagger on ranger, but at this point necros are throwing more damage than ranger traps at longbow ranges.

Unrelated (referring to me),

ranger can do short burst but when the dmg is put into constant/long encounters, sad to say nothing makes it stand out. There are other classe/specialization that can perform the same and better by providing boons at the same time (makes a difference in raid with Bosses having millions in HP). Not a good choice for comparison using a zerker ranger's trap dmg with a condi necro (longbow is 1200-1500 yrds vs necro 600-900 yrds btw). I do enjoy using my soulbeast to burst things down especially in wvw (sometimes w dual longbow-rapid fire with quick draw for lol).

> @"Blue Hare.8612" said:

> Almost all classes can tank, but the reason chrono is used is not because it is the best at tanking. Chrono is used because it can provide quicknes and alacrity while tanking. With chrono as a tank you don't need additional player playing as support to provide alacrity and quicknes. Chrono is not just a tank, but a support also, hence it is meta at the moment.

>

> Some have tried using firebrand for quicknes and revenant for alacrity to replace chrono, but that requires some setup and is not really practical in pugs, and having a chrono is more simple.

^ Already provided the best answer.

@"Doctor.1384" said did raise a point. But from neutral perspective, just take it as it is like I did.

It's fair one needs to play the content for its rewards. Raid has it's version, so does WvW, PvW are mostly asc(lacks cosmetic value, but easier to obtain and same stat). Simply put it as an entitlement, for players that commited more. Think everyone agrees it doesn't sound right if others can get the same exact reward but did less than what you did. Maybe Anet will place another ring somewhere else, in WvW or PvE? who knows, just like the aurora etc Anet implement as the game goes. Be patience.

Been a casual player for years now, ever since I started working in rl and that limits my playtime to 3hours-ish daily, more on weekends tho. Nothing changed, still obtaining legendary, achievements etc over time. Haven't started on Ad Infinitum, but not in a hurry nor need to. Just no longer able to participate in guild raids due to time and commitment. Like everyone, wanted a set of legendary armor, but its selfish to drag others behind if they can find replacements. What I did instead is cherry picking raids, easy & higher chance of success bosses(escort,vg,gorse etc). 3 encounters to cap my shards for the week(fail atempts included). Instead of giving up, I managed my playtime; Spend a couple hours in a week for 3 encounters to earn enough shards for asc after a week or two; OR farm throughout the week daily, meta events etc. The choice for me is clear.

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> Funny I happened to join a pug exactly at this point in their run... yesterday (though earlier in the day compared to this post's time of submission).

>

> As soon as I got there, we got it done. Everyone was like "FINALLY JFC THIS WAS SO HARD" - it really isn't.

>

> Later they struggled in the electric room because following the simple instruction of having 4 stand in the platforms while I lured is too hard as well (they would often get down, and join someone else's platform for absolutely no reason - this part took 10 minutes).

>

> So no, anecdotal evidence aside, this doesn't need any changes lol.

Same here, been ages since the last time I did it. (for ytd's TA daily? :wink:)

Swapping to reflect skills will help in luring the oozes event.

Interesting fact for the electric platform section, altho it may look random panels getting electrified, its not. If you move the camera angle to a bird's eye view(looking from above) you will find it interesting to see the entire room is actually a HUGE Tetris game :smiley:.