Crozame.4098

It really amazing that players are defending this class. Amazing.

> @"Moyo.3987" said:

> > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > @"Moyo.3987" said:

> > > You complain about Core Necros with 3 defensive traitlines dealing 0 dmg and having 0 stability. There are only 2 ppl in top20 atm which played MOSTLY core necro. 5+ ppl are playing reaper (its better in this meta) and 1 scourge. If you lose to full bunker punching ball core necro, maybe you deserve it :)

> >

> > Yea, Lich form does no dmg at all. And, since they are not killable, they play overtime, in where they have huge advantage: no heals but can have shroud. Its still kitten af after the nerf.

>

> Lich is doing about 2.5k +/-500 dmg if you play carrion and defensive amulet. LoS or condi damage is enough as counter for this 150s Elite. Imagine why no one is using Lich in ATs? You have several counterplay options vs bunker core necro if you learn how to fight them.

I was apparently talking about the 2v2, where a little bit competent players would use it when opponents burned some defensive CD. Note that it fucking hits 2-5k, ranged, and very fast attach speed. Eating 2 hits already puts you in a huge disadvantage. Moreover, in 2v2, the annoying thing is its messing power and fear, while the other one deal dmg.

But w/e, keep defending this braindead class. Who cares. At least the devs dont care.

> @"Moyo.3987" said:

> You complain about Core Necros with 3 defensive traitlines dealing 0 dmg and having 0 stability. There are only 2 ppl in top20 atm which played MOSTLY core necro. 5+ ppl are playing reaper (its better in this meta) and 1 scourge. If you lose to full bunker punching ball core necro, maybe you deserve it :)

Yea, Lich form does no dmg at all. And, since they are not killable, they play overtime, in where they have huge advantage: no heals but can have shroud. Its still retarded af after the nerf.

2v2? All about comps and counters. Had fun for the first week or so, and then ppl start to pick up retarded classes.

Wars not too bad in 5v5, but is shit in 2v2. And get hard countered by certain classes.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> Warriors can survive 1 vs 3 with no problem and even chain-CC two of those three opponents without issue.

> Having good damage on top of that would be too strong.

Then its your problem

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > Its obsoletely trash in the 2v2. Mesmer? You can still land 10+ confusion and 10+ torment in 1-2 seconds. And there are port, stealth, so can kite around in the 2v2 arena.

> > >

> > > 10 confusion and torment will do 8k dmg if not cleansed mate :D

> > > the fact that you flex 8k dmg as something amazing shows how kitten the spec is, I had guards put 3k ticks burns withing 0,5s of contact.

> >

> > The annoying fact of mirage which is similar to some thief specs, they just kite around, port in when ready, stealth port out when pressured. Its a bit hard to punish them. And every time Mirage comes in, it does quite a lot of conditions. I agree some classes can chase, but not all. Again, I am talking about 2v2.

> >

> > Well, burning is very strong, I agree with that. sometimes even stupid.

>

> ? pressured mirage legit colapses in 10s. you can evade/kitten aroud for 3-4s and then you are screwed and have to blink away or die.

> Half the " tanky " classes chunk mirage for 1/4 HP, and burst classes take 1/2 HP with 2 abilities.

> comparing mirage evasiveness and thief is just ridiculous, watch some mirage vids that were posed and pay attention what happens when mirage got focused,

> legit lost entire hp in 2s, and had to kite for the rest of the roud, 1 mistake = instadeath

Good mirage never stay longer than 5 seconds. but w/e. idc.

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > Mesmer? You can still land 10+ confusion and 10+ torment in 1-2 seconds. And there are port, stealth, so can kite around in the 2v2 arena.

>

> Mirage is B or B+ tier at best.

In 2v2s many classes are B an B+.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > Its obsoletely trash in the 2v2. Mesmer? You can still land 10+ confusion and 10+ torment in 1-2 seconds. And there are port, stealth, so can kite around in the 2v2 arena.

>

> 10 confusion and torment will do 8k dmg if not cleansed mate :D

> the fact that you flex 8k dmg as something amazing shows how kitten the spec is, I had guards put 3k ticks burns withing 0,5s of contact.

The annoying fact of mirage which is similar to some thief specs, they just kite around, port in when ready, stealth port out when pressured. Its a bit hard to punish them. And every time Mirage comes in, it does quite a lot of conditions. I agree some classes can chase, but not all. Again, I am talking about 2v2.

Well, burning is very strong, I agree with that. sometimes even stupid.

Its obsoletely trash in the 2v2. Mesmer? You can still land 10+ confusion and 10+ torment in 1-2 seconds. And there are port, stealth, so can kite around in the 2v2 arena.

at least in 2v2. Used my main war to soloQ, drop from gold 3 to gold 2. Then, played condi rev, which I have played for about 2 hours, climbed back to gold 3. It is just stupid. at least in 2v2

Just run away hard counters weaver:)

> @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > @"Abyssisis.3971" said:

> > > @"Substance E.4852" said:

> > > > @"Abyssisis.3971" said:

> > > > ^ what toughness are you running?

> > >

> > > Dude's running full glass, catching all the vulnerability a LB ranger can dish out, standing in "sic em'ed" bird swipes and then cries for nerfs while calling others bad

> >

> > I assumed as much from his lack of HP.

>

> This is how much the bird actually hits for without buff and vuln stacking

>

> 

>

> Seems pretty reasonable for a pet with 16k hp, no armor, hit's less than once a second, and still has a hard time hitting a moving target

Nearly 3k per kit no buff, no debuff as a pet... You think this is ok.............. omg...

This still has not been fixed? wow.

You just missed a long history of nerfs and balances. Check other classes as well. lastly, certain builds of thief are still viable. Just take time to adjust.

core ranger is also broken. btw. And about war, 4k GS F1 with full zerker. Now its even more unplayable in 2v2. Emphasis here, 2v2. Can we adjust based on game modes?

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > > > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > > > > > > GS should be balanced a bit. When traited with BM, 4.75 second maul which hits a lot, and can be refreshed by 5. and also GS4, 20 second CD, which is shorter than Revs shield and war shield. And it has knock. Note that although rev's shield heals, rev cannot move. And war's shield stance has no other functionality (very few players in sPvP run defence right?)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Personally not a fan of nerfing GS yet again

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > it is still OP. less than 5 second GS2 which does up to 7k? 20 CD block which can also stun

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think this argument goes for a lot of weps and classes, just works in different ways. Ranger has all its GS damage in maul. But that's a trade off that if you dont get hit by maul ranger wont kill you. For like power mesmer or something as an example you need to dodge 4 and 2 for damage. For war you need to dodge 2 and 3 and 5. But they do slightly less damage than maul.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's all about trade offs. A ranger with 7k mauls is running Bm and Mm and Sb and has little to no condi clear or sustain.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nerfing GS just will make sic em more needed and rangers to find other ways of doing more damage. Also it forces more rangers to go glass because GS will then be garbage on druid and core.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Are you serious? GS5 stuns and reset GS2; GS4 has the potential to stun too; Also there are random pet CCs, and pets hurt a lot. And on top of that, you still have LB.

> > > > > > No sustain? You can stealth from LB, you can invul when merge with certain pet, you can also GS3 and stealth with smoke field.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They indeed need to nerf GS to some certain extent. In most other builds, one weapon set is offensive and the other is defensive. But for ranger, LB is offence, and GS is both offensive and defensive. Thats too good, and need to be balanced.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And you compare the power Mesmer; their burst CD is much longer. Ranger is simply OP, no need to defend it.

> > > > >

> > > > > You cant stealth with smokescale and still get merge invulns you have to pick one...

> > > > >

> > > > > GS 5 and 4 do no damage. So... just stunbreak and dodge GS 2? or kite the ranger? Ranger GS has no way to catch up now that crippling throw is gone GS 4 and 5 are both stationary skills so if you just run away... they cant hit you... so again only thing you have to dodge is GS 2!

> > > > >

> > > > > If a ranger is close enough to LB 3 and then maul... that's some brave kitten and good on them. But... you know you could always just about face and run away!?

> > > > >

> > > > > Still I 5k heal every 30s ain't much. I dont know what you play but whatever it is has ways to beat ranger. Especially when your teammates can help you out.

> > > > >

> > > > > No other professions gets cry nerf threads where the class mains are just blatantly telling people how to beat them like this...

> > > > >

> > > > > If you're getting hit by GS 4 or 5... you misplayed. Only time I get hit by those is when I'm deliberately face tanking the ranger lol. And then I think, "that was dumb" why not just kite out those skills!?

> > > > >

> > > > > Y'know a patch ago when symbolbrand became good I got thrashed by all of them. I hopped on it. Realized kitten if people just kite away from me I cant do kitten. Hopped back on my class and did just that. Turned on impossible fight into the possibility of a won fight. I recommend it.

> > > >

> > > > I don't know why I am still wasting time with Ranger mains. Most of the community who is not ranger main believes that it is kitten Broken at the moment. How many dodges one have? Dodge LB4 Dodge GS4 5, 2, Dodge random pet CC. And about the run away argument, there is another post written by another ranger main, and the run away argument has been discussed quite extensively there. In short, run away is a strategy for all classes, just run away from conditions rev and Necro, is also valid strategy. Ans secondly, not every class has nice swiftness or superspeed.

> > > >

> > > > And I also bet that, if we ask for proof of how you counter good rangers, you will use ranger to show.

> > >

> > > Nah I'd roll into a teamfight and pop retal inside barrage, or throw up firebrand reflect bubble. Ranger longbow doesn't do much in teamfights when people try to counter it. Your best option though is to target the ranger. If you didnt know, dps classes can kill people if left unchecked but if you pressure them it's hard for them to counter pressure and return damage. Especially ranger, 2 people on a ranger is a dead ranger. It simply doesn't have the same minimal kill time as other dps classes out there right now.

> >

> > Now you throw up Teamfight argument... Can you please make more logical arguments?

> >

> > Most strong 1v1 classes are not that good in team fights. And the reverse is also true. The way to counter scourge FB duel before, is just ignore team fights and out rotation them. This does not imply they are not OP.

> >

> > > Especially ranger, 2 people on a ranger is a dead ranger.

> > Most classes are dead with 2 people on them. And you have LB stealth 2. You have at least 2 stealths. and if you cannot get out of a fight, then its your problem.

> >

> > An OP class does not need to be good at both 1v1 and 5v5. Be very strong at one of them can be considered OP.

> >

> > And you are just dodging all the questions raised by the previous post. But its fine, whatever, the game will be never truly balanced. Even when Anet achieved that, and then we have another expansion that will prolly ruin every thing again. W/E.

>

> Well, can't I just say then that not being able to deal with ranger is just your problem? Maybe we should avoid that line of argument. 2 people on a rev vs 2 people on ranger and rev will survive longer.

>

> So here's the thing for ranger and things to dodge. If you are running at it in an open field, you're gonna have a kitten time. You're right there is too much to dodge so I can throw autos. If you random dodge autos I will point blank shot. Or rapid fire. After/during either of these you are likely to dodge again (which was dumb cause you already got hit and should've dodged the skill in the first place) so now you will get hit by rapid fire or point blank shot depending on what was used before. Now in comes the pet... and you're having a kitten day.

>

> Ideally you would eat the longbow autos, there'd be a rock or something to LoS behind and you'd either dodge point blank shot, or LoS the rapid fire, get hit, get up and LoS the rapid fire. Then when pet comes in you should just eat smoke assualt and dodge or just eat the kd behind LoS. Then you still have 1-2 dodges left and can get close to the ranger. Once you get close ranger will either merge or go GS or both.

>

> Eat the smoke assault, the ranger at this point has kitten up. You should now either dodge the kd coming (cause it's coming) or hit the ranger as smoke assualt ends. There are after cast frames where ranger can be hit. Now kitten up the ranger. If ranger is just in GS either kite it out or outplay the block with an unblockable. Honestly, I think your best bet here is to go ham on the ranger and have a strategy in mind for interrupting maul or using weakness or blind and then have something for the unblockable or stow weapon and walk away before (ideally) or after they use it.

>

> Either way now that you're in melee range you got good odds. Ranger is definitely front loaded and lacks sustain if you can survive and get in close you pretty much win.

>

> Now in this meta few things are teleporting which is great for ranger but there are things out there like condi thief, even mesmer, power rev that can really make a ranger's day not fun because they can gap close so effectively and instantly get to melee range... hell I'm sure a firebrand could get away with judges intervention and really kitten on a rangers day.

>

> Again, ranger dmg is a little too high and its gonna get nerfed some. But maybe these tips will help.

>

I have nothing to say. Tbh, I dont need your tips.

Three things regarding necros in general:

1) Lich form auto attack too fast. Either lower the attack rate, or reduce its range, or nerf its dmg by at least half.

2) and 3) are about the RESSING power. Its plainly stupid, especially in 2v2.

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > > > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > > > > GS should be balanced a bit. When traited with BM, 4.75 second maul which hits a lot, and can be refreshed by 5. and also GS4, 20 second CD, which is shorter than Revs shield and war shield. And it has knock. Note that although rev's shield heals, rev cannot move. And war's shield stance has no other functionality (very few players in sPvP run defence right?)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Personally not a fan of nerfing GS yet again

> > > > > >

> > > > > > it is still OP. less than 5 second GS2 which does up to 7k? 20 CD block which can also stun

> > > > >

> > > > > I think this argument goes for a lot of weps and classes, just works in different ways. Ranger has all its GS damage in maul. But that's a trade off that if you dont get hit by maul ranger wont kill you. For like power mesmer or something as an example you need to dodge 4 and 2 for damage. For war you need to dodge 2 and 3 and 5. But they do slightly less damage than maul.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's all about trade offs. A ranger with 7k mauls is running Bm and Mm and Sb and has little to no condi clear or sustain.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nerfing GS just will make sic em more needed and rangers to find other ways of doing more damage. Also it forces more rangers to go glass because GS will then be garbage on druid and core.

> > > >

> > > > Are you serious? GS5 stuns and reset GS2; GS4 has the potential to stun too; Also there are random pet CCs, and pets hurt a lot. And on top of that, you still have LB.

> > > > No sustain? You can stealth from LB, you can invul when merge with certain pet, you can also GS3 and stealth with smoke field.

> > > >

> > > > They indeed need to nerf GS to some certain extent. In most other builds, one weapon set is offensive and the other is defensive. But for ranger, LB is offence, and GS is both offensive and defensive. Thats too good, and need to be balanced.

> > > >

> > > > And you compare the power Mesmer; their burst CD is much longer. Ranger is simply OP, no need to defend it.

> > >

> > > You cant stealth with smokescale and still get merge invulns you have to pick one...

> > >

> > > GS 5 and 4 do no damage. So... just stunbreak and dodge GS 2? or kite the ranger? Ranger GS has no way to catch up now that crippling throw is gone GS 4 and 5 are both stationary skills so if you just run away... they cant hit you... so again only thing you have to dodge is GS 2!

> > >

> > > If a ranger is close enough to LB 3 and then maul... that's some brave kitten and good on them. But... you know you could always just about face and run away!?

> > >

> > > Still I 5k heal every 30s ain't much. I dont know what you play but whatever it is has ways to beat ranger. Especially when your teammates can help you out.

> > >

> > > No other professions gets cry nerf threads where the class mains are just blatantly telling people how to beat them like this...

> > >

> > > If you're getting hit by GS 4 or 5... you misplayed. Only time I get hit by those is when I'm deliberately face tanking the ranger lol. And then I think, "that was dumb" why not just kite out those skills!?

> > >

> > > Y'know a patch ago when symbolbrand became good I got thrashed by all of them. I hopped on it. Realized kitten if people just kite away from me I cant do kitten. Hopped back on my class and did just that. Turned on impossible fight into the possibility of a won fight. I recommend it.

> >

> > I don't know why I am still wasting time with Ranger mains. Most of the community who is not ranger main believes that it is kitten Broken at the moment. How many dodges one have? Dodge LB4 Dodge GS4 5, 2, Dodge random pet CC. And about the run away argument, there is another post written by another ranger main, and the run away argument has been discussed quite extensively there. In short, run away is a strategy for all classes, just run away from conditions rev and Necro, is also valid strategy. Ans secondly, not every class has nice swiftness or superspeed.

> >

> > And I also bet that, if we ask for proof of how you counter good rangers, you will use ranger to show.

>

> Nah I'd roll into a teamfight and pop retal inside barrage, or throw up firebrand reflect bubble. Ranger longbow doesn't do much in teamfights when people try to counter it. Your best option though is to target the ranger. If you didnt know, dps classes can kill people if left unchecked but if you pressure them it's hard for them to counter pressure and return damage. Especially ranger, 2 people on a ranger is a dead ranger. It simply doesn't have the same minimal kill time as other dps classes out there right now.

Now you throw up Teamfight argument... Can you please make more logical arguments?

Most strong 1v1 classes are not that good in team fights. And the reverse is also true. The way to counter scourge FB duel before, is just ignore team fights and out rotation them. This does not imply they are not OP.

> Especially ranger, 2 people on a ranger is a dead ranger.

Most classes are dead with 2 people on them. And you have LB stealth 2. You have at least 2 stealths. and if you cannot get out of a fight, then its your problem.

An OP class does not need to be good at both 1v1 and 5v5. Be very strong at one of them can be considered OP.

And you are just dodging all the questions raised by the previous post. But its fine, whatever, the game will be never truly balanced. Even when Anet achieved that, and then we have another expansion that will prolly ruin every thing again. W/E.

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > > GS should be balanced a bit. When traited with BM, 4.75 second maul which hits a lot, and can be refreshed by 5. and also GS4, 20 second CD, which is shorter than Revs shield and war shield. And it has knock. Note that although rev's shield heals, rev cannot move. And war's shield stance has no other functionality (very few players in sPvP run defence right?)

> > > > >

> > > > > Personally not a fan of nerfing GS yet again

> > > >

> > > > it is still OP. less than 5 second GS2 which does up to 7k? 20 CD block which can also stun

> > >

> > > I think this argument goes for a lot of weps and classes, just works in different ways. Ranger has all its GS damage in maul. But that's a trade off that if you dont get hit by maul ranger wont kill you. For like power mesmer or something as an example you need to dodge 4 and 2 for damage. For war you need to dodge 2 and 3 and 5. But they do slightly less damage than maul.

> > >

> > > It's all about trade offs. A ranger with 7k mauls is running Bm and Mm and Sb and has little to no condi clear or sustain.

> > >

> > > Nerfing GS just will make sic em more needed and rangers to find other ways of doing more damage. Also it forces more rangers to go glass because GS will then be garbage on druid and core.

> >

> > Are you serious? GS5 stuns and reset GS2; GS4 has the potential to stun too; Also there are random pet CCs, and pets hurt a lot. And on top of that, you still have LB.

> > No sustain? You can stealth from LB, you can invul when merge with certain pet, you can also GS3 and stealth with smoke field.

> >

> > They indeed need to nerf GS to some certain extent. In most other builds, one weapon set is offensive and the other is defensive. But for ranger, LB is offence, and GS is both offensive and defensive. Thats too good, and need to be balanced.

> >

> > And you compare the power Mesmer; their burst CD is much longer. Ranger is simply OP, no need to defend it.

>

> You cant stealth with smokescale and still get merge invulns you have to pick one...

>

> GS 5 and 4 do no damage. So... just stunbreak and dodge GS 2? or kite the ranger? Ranger GS has no way to catch up now that crippling throw is gone GS 4 and 5 are both stationary skills so if you just run away... they cant hit you... so again only thing you have to dodge is GS 2!

>

> If a ranger is close enough to LB 3 and then maul... that's some brave kitten and good on them. But... you know you could always just about face and run away!?

>

> Still I 5k heal every 30s ain't much. I dont know what you play but whatever it is has ways to beat ranger. Especially when your teammates can help you out.

>

> No other professions gets cry nerf threads where the class mains are just blatantly telling people how to beat them like this...

>

> If you're getting hit by GS 4 or 5... you misplayed. Only time I get hit by those is when I'm deliberately face tanking the ranger lol. And then I think, "that was dumb" why not just kite out those skills!?

>

> Y'know a patch ago when symbolbrand became good I got thrashed by all of them. I hopped on it. Realized kitten if people just kite away from me I cant do kitten. Hopped back on my class and did just that. Turned on impossible fight into the possibility of a won fight. I recommend it.

I don't know why I am still wasting time with Ranger mains. Most of the community who is not ranger main believes that it is kitten Broken at the moment. How many dodges one have? Dodge LB4 Dodge GS4 5, 2, Dodge random pet CC, and also need to dodge the merge with smoke scale skills, those do a shit ton of dmg as well. And about the run away argument, there is another post written by another ranger main, and the run away argument has been discussed quite extensively there. In short, run away is a strategy for all classes, just run away from conditions rev and Necro, is also valid strategy. Ans secondly, not every class has nice swiftness or superspeed.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"BarnacleBoy.6918" said:

> > This guy has been on a Rampage trying to justify the kinds of damage ranger can do. This is like, the 7th post?

> >

> > Here’s the thing dude, More patches will come, and if certain things about ranger get nerfed or not, it won’t be because of these embarrassing string of posts.

>

> I'm perfectly fine with damage modifiers getting nerfed lol...

>

> I've wanted Sic Em removed for a looooong time and I've stated repeatedly that Gazelle damage and marksmanship modifiers should get lowered.

>

> This thread isn't to defend ranger. I'll still do fine on this class regardless of what happens. These clips are just to show people how to fight against a ranger.

NO!

> This thread isn't to defend ranger. I'll still do fine on this class regardless of what happens. These clips are just to show people how to fight against a ranger.

In your first post, you use these clips to show that rangers are not viable in competitive environment. This statement contradicts what you say...

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > > Is this a troll or something?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ... You use ranger that one shots ranger to show ranger is fine....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Clip 7, yes, grim jack simply ran away..... He just ran away... Fair enough, good strategy.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dodge PBS, LoS projectiles, use movement to counter pets, GS, and merge skills.

> > > > >

> > > > > Was there anything I just listed that can't be done on every other other classes besides ranger?

> > > > >

> > > > > You're making it sound like the clips I linked only worked because I used ranger-specific skills to kill another ranger. But that's not relevant at all. The videos show the same few ways to completely nullify the damage from rangers without having to do much more than dodge once and hold W.

> > > >

> > > > It could also be that SLB is just learning and not good at it. Also, clip 7 is meaningless. Also, not many classes have a 4.75 sec cd on 6-7 dmg skill... Or two set of offensive weapons. Oh, sorry, I think that's only ranger....

> > > > ANd I am not saying that ranger is good or bad. I am just saying your evidence here is not conclusive. Also, from a statistical point of view, at lest clip 1-3, you are farming the same Slb in the same game? So, your INDEPENDENT observations are less than 9...

> > >

> > > [10k True Shot on Maruaders DH](

> > >

> > > I can link one for other classes too if you'd like. And no, clip 7 is exactly what good players do vs. ranger. Grim just did exactly what I do vs. greatsword rangers and simply run in the opposite direction so none of the attacks even have a chance at connecting. So that's a pretty kitten good example of what I've been trying to tell people. You can say "it's meaningless" all you want but in reality, it's exactly how you counter rangers in melee.

> > >

> > > Also, you should read my OP again. Specifically:

> > > This is why ranger isn't good competitively. It is extremely easy to shut down the damage from this class. **The same attacks you see these players use are the exact same ones the good rangers throw at you.** However, by using reaction time to avoid Point Blank Shot, LoS to counter longbow damage, and movement to counter pets, greatsword, and merge skills, you can nullify almost all of the damage a ranger throws at you without having to burn more than a dodge or two.

> >

> > > And no, clip 7 is exactly what good players do vs. ranger. Grim just did exactly what I do vs. greatsword rangers and simply run in the opposite direction so none of the attacks even have a chance at connecting.

> > 1. Firstly, it would be more convincing if he run back and use the strategy to kill you. However, he just ran away and DID NOT come back to try to kill you... If you think this is a good argument to decide whether a class is viable in competitive environments, then no class is viable: anyone can just run away from you and survive. But this is meaningless.

> > Also, freshair weaver might have the short CD burst to down you. And has nice superspeed uptime. So, again, might not be a very good piece of evidence.

> >

> > > This is why ranger isn't good competitively. It is extremely easy to shut down the damage from this class. **The same attacks you see these players use are the exact same ones the good rangers throw at you.** However, by using reaction time to avoid Point Blank Shot, LoS to counter longbow damage, and movement to counter pets, greatsword, and merge skills, you can nullify almost all of the damage a ranger throws at you without having to burn more than a dodge or two.

> >

> > 2. Maybe a good advice, but you need to keep in mind that for melee classes, if I run away from rangers, rangers can run away from them too, but then ranger has LB set and pet dmg. So still might have the advantage. Also, think about the amount of skills others need to dodge: LB4, LB2 (if there is no place to LoS), GS2, 4 and 5. % also resets 2. And, pet cc, also you have unblock after pet swap.

> >

> >

> > > More of Grim on ele.

> > > Clip 1 he knocks me down after the evade frame from Swoop and uses focus 4 in air to prevent me from stealthing after I swapped to longbow.

> > > Clip 2 he used unblockable knockdown through my GS4 into a burst.

> > 3. Clip 1: you were 1v2 do you know that? You also have a thief on you...

> > Clip 2: Your stun breaks are all on CD..

> > Can you please do not provide these kind of weak evidence to prove your case? Also as I mentioned, maybe freshair weaver counters you.

> >

> >

> > > About the 10k True shot:

> > 4. It is more than 5 second cd mate. And no other skills can refresh it. And usually the other set of weapon of DH is defence. And DH does not have as many stuns and rangers. Also, the clip, you were hiting a mirage who was 1v3ing?

> >

> > 5. In sum, your strategy against rangers, are the strategy against all other melee classes: think about rev and FB, just run away, and the symbols or rev Mace 2 would not hit. But they are not viable? Therefore, might not be appropriate to defend the ranger class. And, rangers do have a LB set which is also an offensive weapon. Rangers might be hard to start with, since they also need to control the pets (follow and attack), but saying its not viable is nonsense. Rangers might not be the strongest and might have counters, but it does not mean it is not viable.

> >

> >

>

> Okay let me just preface this by saying I gave you multiple video examples on how this strategy can work consistently and you're trying to argue that:

>

> a) It doesn't actually work consistently

> b) It's not a viable strategy

>

> 1. Ranger's mobility is almost completely tied to GS. We have a single skill that should be reserved for trying to escape rather than chase someone down (it doesn't even cripple). Unlike holosmith, spb, or weaver, there are no ways to reliably close the gap on an opponent in melee range if they're kiting like this. As a result, simply turning around and holding W is a strategy that works more consistently against ranger's melee than all of those other side noders I just listed. Hence, why it's way easier for good players to nullify ranger damage (and why it's not/hasn't been good competitively) compared to other classes.

> 2. So then dodge the PBS, LoS the longbow, and keep moving the same way to avoid the pet as you should do for greatsword. And you can't completely avoid other those classes' damage in melee like you can for ranger GS.

> 3. Look how fast I died when other players know what they're doing. Well-timed CCs, well-timed damage, well-timed anti-projectile, etc. etc. Do you think Grim just randomly decided to hold down W or do you think maybe another high ranking player did that because it _works_? He was obviously looking behind him because turned around to try and kill me again as soon as I used the Maul.

> 4. Didn't you _just_ say to me, ["Also, not many classes have a 4.75 sec cd on 6-7 dmg skill"](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1186090/#Comment_1186090)? Well, DH has a skill that can hit for 10k every 8 seconds. 3-4k more damage on a 1-2 second longer cooldown that can be used at 1200 range that can't simply be outranged easily (though just as easily dodgeable as Maul) is v dangerous considering it can take 60% of your health off at any given moment. :open_mouth:

> 5. Yes, try straight up running away from a Rev to counter S/S Shiro or condi mallyx and see how that goes when they ranged chill, port/pull, and super speed you into downstate. Either way, there are other skills on other classes that can be avoided the same way. Ranger is one of the most prevalent ones that can be 100% avoided through movement alone (traveler runes are all you need if you choose not to take swiftness in your build).

Seriously mate, you arguments are not complete nor convincing:

> Okay let me just preface this by saying I gave you multiple video examples on how this strategy can work consistently and you're trying to argue that:

> a) It doesn't actually work consistently

> b) It's not a viable strategy

My argument is: Your strategy can be used on many other classes, its not specifically against ranger. Therefore, you cannot use it to defend that ranger is not viable.

> 1. Ranger's mobility is almost completely tied to GS. We have a single skill that should be reserved for trying to escape rather than chase someone down (it doesn't even cripple). Unlike holosmith, spb, or weaver, there are no ways to reliably close the gap on an opponent in melee range if they're kiting like this. As a result, simply turning around and holding W is a strategy that works more consistently against ranger's melee than all of those other side noders I just listed. Hence, why it's way easier for good players to nullify ranger damage (and why it's not/hasn't been good competitively) compared to other classes.

Firstly, GS3 is a leap. Also Slb has a leap also if merge with bird, right? I think there are more, but not sure. Also, you have LB that can do nice dmg. And in some places you need to take a few hits before running to a place that I can LoS.

Again, if you are ranger, you can do the same to Engi and war. Run away when they have Holo or GS F1, then run back to kill them afterwards.

> 3. Look how fast I died when other players know what they're doing. Well-timed CCs, well-timed damage, well-timed anti-projectile, etc. etc. Do you think Grim just randomly decided to hold down W or do you think maybe another high ranking player did that because it _works_? He was obviously looking behind him because turned around to try and kill me again as soon as I used the Maul.

Most class dies fast under 1v2 or more and when others time well CC etc. Again, not specific to rangers.

Also, as I mentioned, it might be very well that Freshair weaver counters ranger, as they have every tool kit for it. Projectile denial, Superspeed uptime, short CD ranged burst etc. Having a counter is normal, it does not imply its not viable.

> 4. Didn't you _just_ say to me, ["Also, not many classes have a 4.75 sec cd on 6-7 dmg skill"](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1186090/#Comment_1186090)? Well, DH has a skill that can hit for 10k every 8 seconds. 3-4k more damage on a 1-2 second longer cooldown that can be used at 1200 range that can't simply be outranged easily (though just as easily dodgeable as Maul) is v dangerous considering it can take 60% of your health off at any given moment. :open_mouth:

I mean, cmon, you hit 6-7 on Soulbeast, and your clip showed 9k on Mesmer. I am pretty sure Maul will do around the same dmg against that Mesmer. Additionally, true shot cannot be reset by landing another skill. Moreover, DH don't have other skills that hit that hard, while rangers have: pet dmg, LB 2 etc.

I also feel the pain, your statements does not stand scrutiny, many of them are just focusing on one aspect while ignoring the whole picture. The whole point of my response is to argue that your evidence is not sufficient to show that ranger is not viable. Thats all.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > Is this a troll or something?

> > > >

> > > > ... You use ranger that one shots ranger to show ranger is fine....

> > > >

> > > > Clip 7, yes, grim jack simply ran away..... He just ran away... Fair enough, good strategy.

> > >

> > > Dodge PBS, LoS projectiles, use movement to counter pets, GS, and merge skills.

> > >

> > > Was there anything I just listed that can't be done on every other other classes besides ranger?

> >

> > Dodges are not infinite, LoS isn't always possible, not every profession can out move ranger. Ranger isn't as ridiculous when you're in a 1v1 situation and not worried too much about an objective. They are fairly predictable and what you suggested will work most the time. Granted you probably wont kill them unless you have some sort of ranged pressure but surviving is very do-able.

> >

> > It's when they +1 or jump you in a team fight their burst becomes an issue. When you get PBS+Rapid+Smokescale assult+maul+hilt+maul in a very short span (due to quickness) from off screen when you're fighting other people there isn't much to be done about it except die. I'm not saying you **cant** survive it but most the time you'll get deleted without much time to react. Its like they are doing what the thief should do, but better. Builds like this are squishy, yeah, but they are not looking for 1v1's. Glass ranger builds are rotating quickly between points and outnumbering and are way to effective at it. Even if they do get focused after bursting they have plenty of survival options. If I where to suggest anything it would be to shave their burst damage from stacking modifiers and increase their sustained damage.

>

> 1. You only need to dodge PBS. One dodge. That's all it takes.

> 2. There's LoS everywhere. [Clip 9](

> 3. Every class becomes dangerous in a +1. PBS -> RF -> SA -> Maul -> HB -> Maul is an incredibly long combo. There is absolutely 0 reason why you should ever get hit by the entire thing regardless of whether or not the ranger has quickness.

> 3. Every class becomes dangerous in a +1. PBS -> RF -> SA -> Maul -> HB -> Maul is an incredibly long combo. There is absolutely 0 reason why you should ever get hit by the entire thing regardless of whether or not the ranger has quickness.

This is nonsense. If you apply to the logic, then no one should get hit by FB symbols, Reaper Elite any Shroud skills, and Reaper GS skills, War GS F1 or any rampage skills, Rev Sword 4, 3, any staff skills. DH true shot, DH F1, DH LB 5;

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > Is this a troll or something?

> > > >

> > > > ... You use ranger that one shots ranger to show ranger is fine....

> > > >

> > > > Clip 7, yes, grim jack simply ran away..... He just ran away... Fair enough, good strategy.

> > >

> > > Dodge PBS, LoS projectiles, use movement to counter pets, GS, and merge skills.

> > >

> > > Was there anything I just listed that can't be done on every other other classes besides ranger?

> > >

> > > You're making it sound like the clips I linked only worked because I used ranger-specific skills to kill another ranger. But that's not relevant at all. The videos show the same few ways to completely nullify the damage from rangers without having to do much more than dodge once and hold W.

> >

> > It could also be that SLB is just learning and not good at it. Also, clip 7 is meaningless. Also, not many classes have a 4.75 sec cd on 6-7 dmg skill... Or two set of offensive weapons. Oh, sorry, I think that's only ranger....

> > ANd I am not saying that ranger is good or bad. I am just saying your evidence here is not conclusive. Also, from a statistical point of view, at lest clip 1-3, you are farming the same Slb in the same game? So, your INDEPENDENT observations are less than 9...

>

> [10k True Shot on Maruaders DH](

>

> I can link one for other classes too if you'd like. And no, clip 7 is exactly what good players do vs. ranger. Grim just did exactly what I do vs. greatsword rangers and simply run in the opposite direction so none of the attacks even have a chance at connecting. So that's a pretty kitten good example of what I've been trying to tell people. You can say "it's meaningless" all you want but in reality, it's exactly how you counter rangers in melee.

>

> Also, you should read my OP again. Specifically:

> This is why ranger isn't good competitively. It is extremely easy to shut down the damage from this class. **The same attacks you see these players use are the exact same ones the good rangers throw at you.** However, by using reaction time to avoid Point Blank Shot, LoS to counter longbow damage, and movement to counter pets, greatsword, and merge skills, you can nullify almost all of the damage a ranger throws at you without having to burn more than a dodge or two.

> And no, clip 7 is exactly what good players do vs. ranger. Grim just did exactly what I do vs. greatsword rangers and simply run in the opposite direction so none of the attacks even have a chance at connecting.

Firstly, it would be more convincing if he run back and use the strategy to kill you. However, he just ran away and DID NOT come back to try to kill you... If you think this is a good argument to decide whether a class is viable in competitive environments, then no class is viable: anyone can just run away from you and survive. But this is meaningless.

Also, freshair weaver might have the short CD burst to down you. And has nice superspeed uptime. So, again, might not be a very good piece of evidence.

> This is why ranger isn't good competitively. It is extremely easy to shut down the damage from this class. **The same attacks you see these players use are the exact same ones the good rangers throw at you.** However, by using reaction time to avoid Point Blank Shot, LoS to counter longbow damage, and movement to counter pets, greatsword, and merge skills, you can nullify almost all of the damage a ranger throws at you without having to burn more than a dodge or two.

Maybe a good advice, but you need to keep in mind that for melee classes, if I run away from rangers, rangers can run away from them too, but then ranger has LB set and pet dmg. So still might have the advantage. Also, think about the amount of skills others need to dodge: LB4, LB2 (if there is no place to LoS), GS2, 4 and 5. % also resets 2. And, pet cc, also you have unblock after pet swap.

> More of Grim on ele.

> Clip 1 he knocks me down after the evade frame from Swoop and uses focus 4 in air to prevent me from stealthing after I swapped to longbow.

> Clip 2 he used unblockable knockdown through my GS4 into a burst.

Clip 1: you were 1v2 do you know that? You also have a thief on you...

Clip 2: Your stun breaks are all on CD..

Can you please do not provide these kind of weak evidence to prove your case? Also as I mentioned, maybe freshair weaver counters you.

> About the 10k True shot:

It is more than 5 second cd mate. And no other skills can refresh it. And usually the other set of weapon of DH is defence. And DH does not have as many stuns and rangers. Also, the clip, you were hiting a mirage who was 1v3ing?

In sum, your strategy against rangers, are the strategy against all other melee classes: think about rev and FB, just run away, and the symbols or rev Mace 2 would not hit. But they are not viable? Therefore, might not be appropriate to defend the ranger class. And, rangers do have a LB set which is also an offensive weapon. Rangers might be hard to start with, since they also need to control the pets (follow and attack), but saying its not viable is nonsense. Rangers might not be the strongest and might have counters, but it does not mean it is not viable.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Crozame.4098" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Free kill? If it is severely underpowered then at least one duoQ with mirage would not be able to win DuoQs with cancer builds and top players.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > What kind of logic is that? Ofc when players are 10000 times better than others they can make up stuff work. Just as low skilled noobs can win vs much better players only because of buildcarry.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > ...... They are also against top players. So they are not 10000 times better. Maybe slightly better, but cannot compensate if the builds are as you mentioned, very very weak.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Barely, most times i see them vs clearly worse wannabe goods or simple nonames. Maybe they get q dodged a lot, no clue. And Sindrener does a lot with his Thief to make that comp work. But i am not even saying Condimirage is unplayable, why should it? Anet didn't fix the real issues at all. They just forced Mirages more into toxic retargeting mechanic and from an offensive passive dodge trait (passive because of the condi ambushes, not because of IH itself) to a mostly passive defensive dodge trait (EM), which is rly strong right now, because condis are stronger than power dmg atm. The change didn't add any skill ceiling to Mirage, they just deleted all potential skill ceiling Condimirage could get with reworked condi ambushes.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I am just saying your logic doesn't make sense. Also even for Condimirage (what is still braindead spammy and passive) you barely see anyone else except Misha playing it successful. Maybe it could be few more when you give them a Sindrener at their side too but still it makes more sense and is a way easier life to play Ele, Necro, FB... most other classes,... than a Condimirage, not to mention Powermirage what is now even more only something for masochists.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I mean, I am simply saying mirage is ok, and might not need a buff. Thats all I am trying to say. And you said it is not unplayable.

> > > > > > > > Regarding the logical part. If it is completely garbage, then no one can make it work. . I don't see why its flawed. Also, there was just a video on forum: power mirage & rev got into plat, and I think they are not those who consistently make to the finals of the MATs.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I have no clue if those players even participate in Ats but that does not rly matter. When you look at the footage you can clearly see and it got mentioned more than once already that this Player was/is most likely the best/ for sure one of the best Powermesmers in the whole game. Means until now we have 2 ppl in EU can make Mirage work vs decent ppl, one Condimirage and one Powermirage. How about we nerf all other classes in a way only 2 ppl can play it? Did you try Mirage yourself? I did try Condimirage and just switched back to Necro, not because Condimirage is totally unplayable but because Necro and other classes are way more chill and (compared to Powermirage at least) easier to play (clearly easier to survive also compared to Condimirage). Not to mention Powermirage clearly is for masochists. Let me see some footage from you playing it at plat+, preferable Powermirage, to show how viable it is and then talk.

> > > > > > > That you can make something work when you play a lot better than your opponents and when you have way more work to do for the same reward than on other classes can hardly be called good balance. If you think Mirage is ok, then prove it and play it yourself and show some footage vs decent ppl. Talking on forum is easy and words are patient.

> > > > > > > Overkill or not, as mentioned already the biggest problem with that change is that it dumbs down the whole mechanic instead adding skill ceiling, what is for sure a bad way of balancing, in particular when you do not even solve the balance issues of the one op playstyle (like Conidmirage is still passive and braindead dodgespam, now even more to not waste endurance reggen).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There are better ways to balance Condimirage (without dumbing down the spec, without overnerfing skillful Powerbuilds, with adding skill ceiling to even Condimirage and make it finally less passive and for that solve the issues instead nerfing around them) and they got mentioned several times already, do the effort to read forum and you will find them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ok, think of the current meta. Besides the 3-4 busted builds, can you find other classes with more than 2 players that also can reach the top and win against top players with busted builds?

> > > > > > And, footage from me is also biased, since I do not main mirage. I played it before prior to nerf, and I think it is very easy to play. At least again melee classes (not thief). But again. Similarly, maybe because you are really really bad at mirage or pvp in general so you just switch back to Necro. So your statement is meaningless. Talking on forum is easy and words are patient.... Your own arguments suffers against your other arguments mate. Try to be consistent.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't understand. 1) This thread is title "Mesmer needs a buff". 2) You said it is not too bad. 3) You said the way Anet balanced is not correct and hence reduce the ceiling. Balance != Buff right? So, I really don't understand what are you arguing here. It gives the impression that you also want to buff mirage.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > That you can make something work when you play a lot better than your opponents and when you have way more work to do for the same reward than on other classes can hardly be called good balance. If you think Mirage is ok, then prove it and play it yourself and show some footage vs decent ppl. Talking on forum is easy and words are patient.

> > > > > > So you know him but way more effort in this game even there is no other incentives to do so (no ESL etc...) Similarly, how do you know others did not put a lot of effort in the game?

> > > > >

> > > > > Footage of you is not biased, you also can get enough time to get into the class, no problem, you even played Mirage already as you say, means you don't even need that long. Coming on forum and claiming opinions without explaining anything just claiming is easy. You even call it easy to play, even better, should be easy for you to prove that then. Give me some easy Powermirage footage then please.

> > > > > I was not replying to the thread name i was replying to you saying Mirage is ok and your only prove of that is, that 2 ppl can make it work in plat+. The same players could also just switch on any other class and get the same result with way less effort and skill investment. So that is not proving anything. Mirage is not "ok" with only one dodge. Powermirage is pretty butchered and that for the sake of nerfing Condimirage what didn't even solve the issues on Condimirage. I gave enough suggestions of how to nerf Condimirage in other ways instead the one dodge change. I will not repead them for you the 1000. time because you are unwilling to do the effort to inform yourself before you claim stuff and accuse me of stuff clearly not true, what you would know when closely reading my stuff.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Coming on forum and claiming opinions without explaining anything just claiming is easy. Same applies to you mate. How do you know there are only 2 mirages? and how do you know others invest less efforts? Without knowing the answers, you make those claims. Have you put the effort you inform yourself about your two claims?

> > > >

> > > > And you don't even main mirage. As you mentioned, you tried it a few times and then switch back to Necro, then how on earth your suggestions are useful?

> > > >

> > > > And in the last, the logic that: if one class is truly trash in every aspect, then no one can make it work, is legit. So I did not make rootless claims. If I have data, I would make stronger claims.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I am not talking about how many effort ppl invest in the game i talk about how many effort it needs to play certain classes rewarding and competitive and how much skill that needs compared to others. That is easy to do by playing the game and all classes, like i do as a multiclass player. I currently miss Ranger that is why i do not rly comment on that despite the obvious that npcs should not have high dmg on passive skills. And no i do not just claim, i invest a lot of time to explain, based on gameknowledge and facts and logic, why i say what i say. But it seems you just want to play an semantic game to distract from the fact that you cannot prove what you claim, while you don't even have logic behind you to back you up. Again, you said you played Mirage, you say it is easy (again no logic, no prove, just a claim means nothing), so where is the problem to show some footage playing that easy spec vs decent ppl? I even give you some time to get back into the class. You don't need to upload tomorrow or in one week. Ez thing for you to do.

> >

> >

> > > I am not talking about how many effort ppl invest in the game i talk about how many effort it needs to play certain classes rewarding and competitive and how much skill that needs compared to others.

> > How do you know that? Proof? Or this is based on logic? I don't see the logical point here tho.

> >

> > >Again, you said you played Mirage, you say it is easy (again no logic, no prove, just a claim means nothing)

> > yes I said I once tried mirage, even before the previous nerf. Its perfectly fine that you do not believe me but that not relevant...

> > The discussion here is whether the current state of mirage needs a buff. And I argue because of the logic I mentioned... I did not say that I tried the CURRENT mirage and its stupidly easy to play...I Did not say that..

> >

>

> Again a lot of words for saying nothing, senseless to talk to ppl like you. Gosh i am done. Rain is dry becasue you never got wet when staying inside the house, logic yes! Me agree to you just to have my peace here.

OMFG. So, when you blame others, you want hard evidence etc. But when it come to you, its fine, you just claim things and you must be right... Nice mate, keep living in that world.