Shao.7236

Not just multi-classing but playing your class in all the way you're offered to also.

> @"ollbirtan.2915" said: > Or you could, you know, adapt / learn to play that class to see how easily it can be countered instead of whining for nerfs? Sorry, if my expectations are too high. Telling that to one of the only few core revenant that exists in the game and have success at high levels. Not here to flex but to tell you that I main this class and I am free to judge if something is stupid with evidence. You take everything as whining when I am here to criticize the lack of judgement for balancing the skill properly which leads to outcries and random nerfs that can affect my favorite part of the class indirectly. I've called for nerfs on Shortbow Sevenshot because it was overpowered and most if not all Revs I knew disagree'd. Why? Is it that hard to admit some skills carries and need to be adjusted? They nerfed it properly and it's still good in either of the 3 ways it's used. Way before that I asked for Call to Anguish nerfs which made all the difference and then they decided to screw over the corruption lines because everyone would rely on super cheese with all resistance traits even though I said they should prevent Fiendish Tenacity from giving Resistance at all on legend swap, leaving the other traits alone as the best benefit be mere healing for resistance that wouldn't be bloated by the main mechanic of the class and rather remain practical with Demonic Defiance and Spirit Boon instead. Now it's pointless to have. If they actually cared, they'd get EM baseline resistance so people wouldn't be forced to trait DD either. This is sad. Anyways, nah. I know how to play Renegade, I played it way before it existed on the meta sites and it would be pretty okay even when everything was overtuned which goes to show if it could hold it's own before, today it can only be too good. Which IMO with numbers is, extremely bloated, annoying to deal with, too forgiving to play with. Whether we can beat it or not doesn't stop the fact that this one particular skill has too much going for it (At least PvP) and people should learn and adapt to not rely on such easy mechanics to win at the game.

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > I get where you're coming from but no amount of nerfs are going to prevent the forums from complaining. > > It didn't stop them from complaining about one-dodge mirage having too many evades when they started running signet of illusions. > It didn't stop them from complaining about ele when they managed to scrounge together one viable dps build amidst all the nerfs. > It didn't stop them from complaining about scrapper, because dwayna forbid it be allowed to be meta anywhere that isn't WvW zerg snoozefests. > > What renegade needs, if anything, is a visual effects rework. Spirits need to more clearly communicate what they're doing so players can more easily play around them. It's clear from the amount of times I've heard people say "Renegade spams too many AoE spirits on node" that their current design does not communicate their individual functions well. Well, outside of that. Renegade to me feels great as an objective denial oriented legend if using said skills. Only the elite has that weird exception which forgives a lot of mistakes users can do, like having good consistent decision making doesn't matter at all because the healing/damage has no brakes whatsoever. Being in a bad spot as Renegade can already be turned around quite easily even without the elite, that's why to /me/ it feels way too good having no interval and doing the actual /math/ with how volatile that skill can be in combination of everything else. There's gotta be some throttling done somewhere to make it fair amongst other things at least in PvP. Changing the stats is a bigger nerf than having this ICD since more will be required for less at a time too.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > i think messing with duration and cd first is more prudent. I considered that, which is smart to suggest really. However given how Revenant works, it's hard to recommend as an Upkeep skill and little effect it'll have in general when swapping legends back and forth. Should as an upkeep the skill be a commitment of the same level the others have in the legend? I can see that work while keeping the effect of said skill in check to prevent too much cheese, losing the liberty as is right now brings a lot of mixed feelings for the rev in me.

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > heir dps. > > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > @"noiwk.2760" said: > > > > @"Liewec.2896" said: > > > > if 2 revs both use it, do you get the effect twice? > > > > i'm wondering how OP a multi-rev comp could get :) > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree, look at Impossible Odds change and try to keep a straight face would suggesting it again, I can't. It would be really comical from Anet to favor those changes but keep the other the same which already has worst effects to be even more out of favor. > > > > 0.25 would put brakes on an otherwise broken effect when there's none to make sure that it's not awfully bloated for every multi-hits that take place on any professions. > > > > Steadfast Rejuvenation and Charged Mists flow would also change because of that, which makes it a bigger nono. > > > > They could bring back the old damage and healing at best, but I doubt since everything needed to be touched by the blanket idea.les > > Impossible odds doesn't have the same drawbacks soulcleave does. > > You do not have to support a summon with jallis road to prevent random CC's from removing its effects. > You don't have to stand within a radius to gain benefits from impossible odds > Impossible odds has no wind-up, meaning you can toggle it on/off when you need it most, significantly reducing the drain on energy. Soulceave takes a good second to wind up, and it's draining energy the entire time it does so. > Soulcleave does not grant a movement speed increase, meaning it doesn't have the versatility of impossible odds for chasing/kiting purposes. > > Soulcleave's advantages over imposible odds are the siphon and the lack of internal cooldown. Nerfing the internal cooldown indirectly nerfs the siphon as well. > > If you're going to nerf soulcleave into what is functionally weaker imposible odds, it should have the energy drain of a weaker impossible odds. ` But it wouldn't be weaker. It's also an AoE that can be shared over the team, not exclusive to the user. Just saying the movement speed boost is meaningless, it serves no purpose. I have never seen anyone use it in regards to it's speed since Superspeed was removed, neither myself and for a good reason, it's not comparably close to anything next to it for making a difference that puts energy to good use. If it was comparable to Rune of Speed, that would be more reasonable of a mention and if it is I would have noticed because I can't never catch up to people using Speed in the first place, could be a bug but for now. Not useful at all. This is more like making it even to the other skills rather than a nerf. It'll still be good without carrying the user so much when their arsernal of sustain is massive and to be played better. If I can tank loads of damage as a berserker Core Shiro/Jalis without any form of healing but the included skills, people can do the same when they trait for everything to Bunker Renegade. Let's change things right so Renegade or Core doesn't get hammered by anymore complains that aren't sensical from people that don't know Revenant enough.

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > As long as it's a sPvP only thing. I don't want to see this added in PvE. Ofc. Hence why it was ideally posted in this section. Don't care for WvW since everything is broken from the start over there.

Killed build variety as in? I can play whatever I want now given it makes sense and isn't random. Claim has no foundation to hold on. I couldn't do that before and it's easy to prove by looking back at what dominated back then. (Tetherbreaker evade spam at 4k unblockable damage per dodge.) You can't make this up.

> @"noiwk.2760" said: > > @"Liewec.2896" said: > > if 2 revs both use it, do you get the effect twice? > > i'm wondering how OP a multi-rev comp could get :) > > i dont think that you can have the same effect twice. honestly.. while the ulti is indeed strong.. nerfing it or adding interval will destroy renegade.. make a class trash isnt balancing it.. > renegade is indeed strong ... but it does have drawbacks and its not a crazy high damaging class as it is.. and most of the damage it does have comes from that elite skill with auto attack spaming.. i think nerfing the ret trait that regen hp per upkep you have will do more than enough to bring Renegade back in line.. because the only real issue with renegade its his sustain.. if someone just die to the legends then he dont know how to play.. Stop suggesting non sensical nerfs to core traits for an elite spec. You don't have crazy high damage because you're traiting to be a bunker, with actual damage it's entirely different you'd know from playing it. Shortbow alone can delete any medium health professions in 2 seconds without the siphon, it's easy to prove with evidence that at it's peak performance the class deals a lot of damage even on Celestial because of Brutal Momentum as well. Shiro Impossible Odds for the longest time had the same upkeep drain in pvp with nothing to remedy itself with the removal of superspeed, quickness and the additional damage turning into secondary hits that have _smallest_ **intervals**. It's still good. You don't seem understand what it means to have a skill like this with no cooldown and many skills outside the profession have broken results, pairing two of the same builds have also broken results that would be easily alleviated by adding a limit like everything else has in the game. > @"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said: > You can add interval of 1 second but then healing and dmg have to be 4x buffed :) like what you think about this post....you can cc that and deny any life siphon to happen and guess what you can hide behind terrain or block.....what can that poor renegade do? Just get locked to stay under radius of that summon to get its effect. > > For class that is very counterable and very limited you shouldn't complain about anymore..... go make a post about engy grenades 1,1,1,1,1, spam and necro lich form 1,1,1,1 spam too(more you spam better)... Use your class properly and drop a road to support your summons for what in the span of simply 2 seconds which you'll have already healed for 2k + by just scuffing skills on someone and can do from twice the range because shortbow. With 75% energy on swap you have way more than you need to sustain in case someone CC you, unless you're that type of player who uses Daring offensively to which in that regards it's no wonder you think it's weak to CC but that doesn't put aside the fact Soulcleave Summit without an interval to damage is too much. Let's not forget also the ability to have 105% condition damage reduction during 10 seconds for absolute condi spam immunity, can even add CC immunity in the mix with another road and if you care to hit people with it, that's even more sustain because of Weakness on hit. If I had to say, Renegade was never weak, was always strong while you had easier stuff like Tetherbreaker and Holosmith overshadowing it. People never bothered to play it for the longest time because shortbow skills sucked in a PvP environment. That didn't bother me at all considering all the builds I had made for myself at the time, the most interesting being with Diviner amulet when it was still around. > @"Clownmug.8357" said: > Eww, so Razorclaw's Rage except with massive energy drain? No thanks. 0.25 is not close to it and you are not limited on targets/strikes. So no, they're not comparable. > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said: > > You can add interval of 1 second but then healing and dmg have to be 4x buffed :) like what you think about this post....you can cc that and deny any life siphon to happen and guess what you can hide behind terrain or block.....what can that poor renegade do? Just get locked to stay under radius of that summon to get its effect. > > > > For class that is very counterable and very limited you shouldn't complain about anymore..... go make a post about engy grenades 1,1,1,1,1, spam and necro lich form 1,1,1,1 spam too(more you spam better)... > > or you can make it 0,25s like necro drain is, so that you can proc it quickly, but hits that boom you several times at the same time ( nades ) dont screw you over instantly. > while still remaining mostly intact, for even fast abilities like rapid fire. At 0.25 multi-hits are about half as effective which is already a great change for something so easy to play. > @"Kuma.1503" said: > I'd lower the energy drain from -8 to -6 if an internal cooldown is added. Even then it would be quite a huge nerf. I disagree, look at Impossible Odds change and try to keep a straight face would suggesting it again, I can't. It would be really comical from Anet to favor those changes but keep the other the same which already has worst effects to be even more out of favor. 0.25 would put brakes on an otherwise broken effect when there's none to make sure that it's not awfully bloated for every multi-hits that take place on any professions. Steadfast Rejuvenation and Charged Mists flow would also change because of that, which makes it a bigger nono. They could bring back the old damage and healing at best, but I doubt since everything needed to be touched by the blanket idea.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > Don't remove it, make the pulsing less aggressive. > > > > Every second is too often for anyone that clears it just to get caught in the radius again because there's no window of escape at all. > > That goes basically for every CC/snare combo in this game....if one goes..all of them should suffer the same fate , it's way more agonizing to be feared/chilled in a loop that being...immobilized which I can clear with simple countermoves like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warrior%27s_Sprint That's why it needs to change and be proper because it's not exactly problematic to have that skill, numbers are the problem. There's still a chance to get immobilized anyway before/after doing it. Revenant has that problem with Aggressive Agility also and it's annoying. Making the skill pulse every 2 seconds for 2 seconds of Immobilize would alleviated the problem of spam by leaving room for skills to work. With CC's there's an actual chance to evade after stunbreaking, here you have more RNG than a chance to do so.

Don't remove it, make the pulsing less aggressive. Every second is too often for anyone that clears it just to get caught in the radius again because there's no window of escape at all.

> @"Swagg.9236" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > @"Swagg.9236" said: > > > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > I'd say that it's less about CC needing a purge than CC counters needing work (We don't need more CC counter, we need better quality of CC counter). > > > > > > > > > > I believe that having tools to interrupt other players is an healthy thing, however I don't think that long cast time CC with long lasting effect are an healthy thing. Stability need to stop being a "CC aegis", it need to reduce CC effects by 100% over a set duration without removing the "interrupt" part of the differents CCs. > > > > > > > > > > ANet's devs really need to understand that being CC locked just isn't "fun". > > > > > > > > > > > Use your judgement to tell when they're done/used most CC, akind to how you think about when it's time to clear the peak of conditions. > > > > > > > > Those who only rely on so much of it are bound to be countered by Stability users like Conditions gets countered by Resistance. > > > > > > This is why GW2 will never be a skill-based game: everything comes down to just playing extremely passively while whittling away a target until they can't defend themselves. It's just a numbers game of cooldowns. Skillful aggression has no place in GW2. Waiting for an opponent to make a move should not be the consistent key to victory. It just turns everything into frustrating, autopilot stalemates; and that dynamic is extremely suppressive for player creativity. > > I can simplify any game out there the same way you do to discredit their existence. > > > > 90% of the time taking initiative and I win my fights so I could careless. > > You'll never be able to flick kill a guy botting at you in GW2. The success of aggression in GW2 is almost entirely predicated on build comp and cooldowns. Movement, aim, or some other general skill that any player can master and manipulate will not save you. Quake, game that mostly reside on pure skill still has the most narrowed gameplay of all, even less complex that GW2, get the right guns, dominate the map, you win. The aiming and moving part while more mechanical is still in the players judgement to perform. The ability to calculate actions is where true skill rests at along the good set of actions that are uniformly available. (Evade, Stow, LoS.) There can be /bad/ skills but those bad skills can also be surprisingly useful in scenario's that most can't imagine because of their linear sight on everything else. A bot in any game would be improbable to flick anyway. Obviously it rests on the intend of the build, that doesn't mean anything yet again. I could give you a solution to every problem and you will narrow down to some answer that have no purpose but to question why are you even posting anything. Someone being beaten doesn't exclusively scream bad player, that's where matchups and balance lies. You're forgetting how by proven nature for a while that this community is quick and fast to jump on anything that takes the least effort, even if it means losing something that could actually turn an entire fight in their favor because that something is unlikely to be needed, surprisingly that's when you see "memes" become slowly relevant again just for the niche of stomping this one build who people thought never needed the feature that could save them. There's only a few cases where you had immortal meta builds that were overtuned by their unchanged design (Tetherbreaker is the one I can easily recall). Holo is still riding that with so many oversights, still not as bad as it used to be. For me to tell people to not stunbreak right away when they get CC spammed is not for you tell me "GW2 is this, therefor that." no, most were to criticize the change to CC damage and forget to imagine how it would be like to CC spam WITH damage. Telling me people wouldn't have to CC spam isn't true either, they would have anyway while we'd have all utility generally nerfed therefor be worst. If anything, CC spam is only worst damage and we still get complains from people getting CC locked. There's so much to do and yet we are trying to narrow this game into nothing? Again, why are you even posting anything.

> @"Swagg.9236" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > I'd say that it's less about CC needing a purge than CC counters needing work (We don't need more CC counter, we need better quality of CC counter). > > > > > > I believe that having tools to interrupt other players is an healthy thing, however I don't think that long cast time CC with long lasting effect are an healthy thing. Stability need to stop being a "CC aegis", it need to reduce CC effects by 100% over a set duration without removing the "interrupt" part of the differents CCs. > > > > > > ANet's devs really need to understand that being CC locked just isn't "fun". > > > > > Use your judgement to tell when they're done/used most CC, akind to how you think about when it's time to clear the peak of conditions. > > > > Those who only rely on so much of it are bound to be countered by Stability users like Conditions gets countered by Resistance. > > This is why GW2 will never be a skill-based game: everything comes down to just playing extremely passively while whittling away a target until they can't defend themselves. It's just a numbers game of cooldowns. Skillful aggression has no place in GW2. Waiting for an opponent to make a move should not be the consistent key to victory. It just turns everything into frustrating, autopilot stalemates; and that dynamic is extremely suppressive for player creativity. I can simplify any game out there the same way you do to discredit their existence. 90% of the time taking initiative and I win my fights so I could careless.

Ranger can already run 3 stunbreaks which is seen often, how about not using it or accept the way it is? I always use SotM on Revenant and I understand what it means to deal barely any dmg in an AoE of merely 240 at the benefit of everything else it brings, especially considering that it mainly part itself with the flow of the class afterall and while multitasking my skills such as stunbreaking with either RotGD, RS or PA while swapping legends can throw me over unless I work around it. It is what it is. If anything you can use that skill to get rid of blindness or aegis, it's not all negative to have such skill in your arsenal.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said: > I'd say that it's less about CC needing a purge than CC counters needing work (We don't need more CC counter, we need better quality of CC counter). > > I believe that having tools to interrupt other players is an healthy thing, however I don't think that long cast time CC with long lasting effect are an healthy thing. Stability need to stop being a "CC aegis", it need to reduce CC effects by 100% over a set duration without removing the "interrupt" part of the differents CCs. > > ANet's devs really need to understand that being CC locked just isn't "fun". You say that yet the majority hardly understand how to deal with conditions, if anything CC as of right now in term of sustain/skill use is very similar to clearing conditions. Use your judgement to tell when they're done/used most CC, akind to how you think about when it's time to clear the peak of conditions. Those who only rely on so much of it are bound to be countered by Stability users like Conditions gets countered by Resistance.

OP, most of your claims are bogus. Boy I don't feel like writing an essay to debunk them all, should you actually read how bad has everything been nerfed to understand that Revenant is in a good and bad position, therefor balanced. Leave it alone. Current Meta Kalla/Jalis is free food to Thief or anything that has AoE CC (Jade Wind is a terrifying counter to Renegade). They can't win 1v1's for anything given you don't afk in their skills OR faceroll when Weakness/Damage Reduction is effective, it's your job to not get hit by IR or CC'd that provides weakness for sustain so that you can melt them with your real damage. Absolute teamfight build only, worthless against those who know how to exploit Darkrazor and not be weakened to get free damage when they pull out the road, even if they get CM for RotGD after the road, there's still a long time before 50% is effective for more damage to put in. The strategy is to not let them breath under their attempt to set the flow, the more chaos you bring while not falling in the vicious cycle of that 6 seconds of weakness or unable to stun them while Darkrazor is up, you'll have them down in no time. It's obvious when Soulcleave gets set up, you know the big stuff is coming, block it, dodge it just w/e you can, it's easy stuff to read. Jalis at peak is road and RotGD, it's the clear indicative that you should NOT waste your skills because of the damage reduction. @"Master Ketsu.4569" 1. Not really, Devastation still has better damage by around 10% + the fact you have criteria's to fill to obtain that might. 2. Yeah well, without Quickness you're never gonna deal any damage, try it. At least give it back to Impossible Odds if we're going to gut all of it. 3. In PvP only, sure why not. Though it's honestly weak. 4. If you're going to nerf that, bring back the trait increase 33%. 1.5 does NOTHING and it was a clear fact when not traiting Retribution. @"CutesySylveon.8290" Actually doing Core Condi again with sometimes Core support and it's fun, difficult but fun.

> @"Ario.8964" said: > > @"GewRoo.4172" said: > > Yeaaaah let's take even more complexity out of this game. Protip: Don't get CCed. > > Yes, much complexity in spamming cc chains. So interesting and engaging. Wouldn't be at all more complex to have to read what your team is throwing out as well and coordinate your attacks like in most team based games... Only using CC's is like least effective way to deal damage though. If someone only uses CC's on you for the longest time, you can sit back and wait until they're out of them to put one stunbreak to the most efficient use.