praqtos.9035

Problem that "the only stealth" overshadowing every other "group stealth" utility by a long shot, especially not even occupying an utility slot but a toolbelt with ridiculously low cooldown, thats allow not only blast billion time turrets but also have an opening on you after that.

This thread is weird indeed, this spec will never be balanced just because you gain self-reveal on entering forge, thats ... stoopid ... better to focus on spammy aspect of the forge and what makes it spammable - low cooldown on forge skills, especially corona burst/leap and this trait that drop heat and heal you, so this way you dont hurt "other engi builds".

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"bethekey.8314" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> >

> > > Also, contrary to popular belief, mirage isn't very mobile at all. They struggle with gap closing/opening thanks to nerfs to Jaunt, Portal, no reliable access to swiftness, and a unique dodge that does not move them as far out of harm's way as a regular dodge roll. Their big mobility skill, Blink, is a 1200 range teleport typically saved for disengage. Once they've used it, they can't go anywhere fast. Many classes are capable of catching a fleeing mirage.

> >

> > Sorry, what? Two jaunts, blink with superspeed, then depending on build: sword leap, sword ambush, axe teleport, staff teleport, superspeed on other manipulations, swiftness chance with staff, swiftness on focus...All on a relatively low cooldown (<30 sec).

> >

> > Care to link the build(s) you play, what class build you're comparing to, and why that is a relevant comparison (e.g. it fits a similar team role)?

> >

> > Also, mobility that can go vertical (i.e. teleports) is more valuable than standard swiftness and charge skills.

>

> staff 2 is 10s cd for 450 teleport.

> blink is 30s cd for 1200 distance

> jaunt is 30s cd for 450 distance.

> condi doesnt use sword ambush becouse it sucks.

> you dont use superspeed talent becouse it sucks.

> and shift covers less ground then other classes.

> swiftness only from chaos storm ( rng, low duration and 30+cd on the MOST IMPORTANT SKILL) you DONT use it for mobility.

> so if you waste EVERYTHING you move 2,5k distance.

> and you have 60s,30s,10s cooldowns, no stun breakes, no teleports.

There is a common thing, everyone who cry about mesmer in general have no clue about the class and tend to lie/overexaggerate, thinking their lie is truth (seems like honestly believe in that)

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > Should I report this as a trolling ?

> > > > >This must be stopped, with how OP mirage is, we cannot allow a core build to be stronger than Mirage!

> > > > Just like

> > > > >Signet of Dom isn't bad either... traited will rip 5 boons from the target and stun them for 3s. It helps with landing the GS shatter spike atleast.

> > > > Definitely a troll. But they wont remove it I guess

> > >

> > >Hey I didn't say it was great, I said it isn't bad.. It went really well with a Domination CC boon rip build for me. The whole kit can't be focused on just fighting Mirage either, thats overkill. Condi Mirage and condi builds is taken care of in the traits I listed up top and another user pointed out how to go even further.

> > Signet of domination with 45 seconds cd...? Still trolling I see.. whatever I guess

>

> I respect that you dislike the build. Personally I feel like you probably haven't tried it out or did and went SiDe NoDEr oNlY but what you're doing right now is trying to troll me by saying I'm personally trolling you with a comment I made to another user?

>

> I'm impressed but it won't work on me.

Thread itself is a joke as you said in another thread, so I wasnt wrong.

I dont know what build you are talking about even, you didnt say much about it. I know that SoD is utter garbage and assume you cant be serious about it as every other utility->this. (p.s power block has icd for 7 months now, thanks to their december patch, they broke it)

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > Should I report this as a trolling ?

> > >This must be stopped, with how OP mirage is, we cannot allow a core build to be stronger than Mirage!

> > Just like

> > >Signet of Dom isn't bad either... traited will rip 5 boons from the target and stun them for 3s. It helps with landing the GS shatter spike atleast.

> > Definitely a troll. But they wont remove it I guess

>

>Hey I didn't say it was great, I said it isn't bad.. It went really well with a Domination CC boon rip build for me. The whole kit can't be focused on just fighting Mirage either, thats overkill. Condi Mirage and condi builds is taken care of in the traits I listed up top and another user pointed out how to go even further.

Signet of domination with 45 seconds cd...? Still trolling I see.. whatever I guess

edit: Oh ye, compare it with/without traits to this

`https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Binding_Shadow`

See yourself how garbage SoD is or rather how busted BS.

Should I report this as a trolling ?

>This must be stopped, with how OP mirage is, we cannot allow a core build to be stronger than Mirage!

Just like

>Signet of Dom isn't bad either... traited will rip 5 boons from the target and stun them for 3s. It helps with landing the GS shatter spike atleast.

Definitely a troll. But they wont remove it I guess

Not like I'm playing much(last 3 weeks to be precise) but didnt even see this until got mentioned.

@"shadowpass.4236"

Pretty funny to see that from somneone who spam unranked screenshots as a proof (or early season start),contradictting himself with own statements(tangled in your own lie, bruh?).Then trying to use **condi mirage of old age** to prove that **POWER mesmer** is broken... gl with that boy

> @"Teefy.5016" said:

> how the actual $#! did this get past QA. this should be the first thing a tester tries out. amateurs.

I'm 100000000000000% sure they never test anything before release. Look at the amount of game-breaking bugs they produce every single patch. Thief got some traits baseline. Ele traits were messed too. MoD/SoL doesnt work with new shatters, CS doesnt work how it should, now clones should shatter first . Sanctuary runes, some other runes.

> @"Documental.5946" said:

> I remember the days when Anet was accused of 'Mesmer' being it's only child. They'd never do anything to hurt their baby. Wasn't that long ago actually...

>

> Guess they decided to main warrior and ranger instead ehh boys?

The only spec that dodge all bullets is holo. All HoT specs were gutted, except revenant, herald is still alive and not as bad as others but renegod isnt strong as other PoF specs.

If anything their beloved classes are : FB/scourge and especially holo(hadnt got any nerfs this year at all).

> @"Rico.6873" said:

> > @"YtseJam.9784" said:

> > I feel the same way. You destroyed chrono. This is something completely different. Why would after so many years since chrono came out with HoT you go and do something like this? It makes no sense. And why only add this illusion restriction to chrono and not mirage? This nerf constant to the core and HoT specializations is to force us to play the crappy PoF classes. It's been like that since all the "balance" updates started after PoF came out. If you want us to play PoF classes, you should stop changing core game classes and HoT classes and focus on making the PoF stuff more attractive by itself, not by destroying the other specializations.

>

> Pretty sure anet is gonna give all core classes F5 skills and elite wont have access to those

That was done with engineer and revenant. So revs are like "we lose F2 so no trade off!" .

> @"Vincenzo.3145" said:

> Everyone will always hate on whatever kills them. Especially when they don't play it. In any game.

Especially when they are cluless about what kills them, I knew a thief-main (in game/discord but got tired of his qq xD) that never played anything but thief, he dont even read his own skils(that isnt meta) and played the game like 3+ years, he dont know any mesmer or any other class skill or their mechanic,but whine its the most broken spec in the game an poor thieves have no chances to win them.... Like in another thread some thief-main said mesmer had about 15+ blinds before blind-shatter nerf, simply because after all these years he still dont know how trait was working before nerf. I guess thats the case for 95% of this forum

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Xervite.5493" said:

> > > > The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

> > >

> > > current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.

> > > I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.

> > TLDR : take away damage from the clones and trasnfer to mesmer hismelf.

> > I wish power memer would be good too ;-;

>

> Are you kidding? Power mesmer is incredibly good. It's just hard to play. Probably the only build in this game that's properly balanced in that regard.

More like : are you kidding me, i'm getting outplayed by Zeromis 24/7 thus this damn class is broken. I remember that. Also its HARD to play not because its rly hard, but because you have to OUTPLAY everyone else compared to roflspecs

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > It is CI and Mantra of Distraction. Those aren't the only problems with mirage. But they are the main problems right now. And if they weren't using staff they would go Axe or maybe Sword.

> > Where are these OP CI power builds been and where they are now? Playing chaos on power spec means huge damage loss but not the case for cmirage(rather its damage boost beacuse might stacks). Sure the problem lies only in CI/mantra and not cmirage itself ;)

>

> CI+Mantra on power is from the general mechanic also broken because it gives you an instant lock down for a burst and the dmg from a chaos or inspiration Powermes is still high enough, in particular because of the might stacks which should not exist in a defensive traitline. The opportunity cost to take defensive traitlines or any kind of (passive) sustain are way too low (not only for mesmer, on all classes, that's why stuff like Holo exist with perma mini burst and high sustain and resustain he can cover by strealth or stabi). An instant lock down should not exist simple as it is. CI needs to get reworked no matter what. Mantra itself or Mantra with not overperforming traits combined (like Powerblock) is no balance problem at all.

Its enough for ? Take someones 50% hp and then trying to figure out how to get another 50% or 100% because he would heal ?

So enlighten me how its broken, sacrifice real dps traitline in favor of no damage traitline + utility slot where I could take something like cleanse or stealth or SoI?

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"UBcktieDL.5318" said:

> > > It's actually just the interaction between mirage cloak, infinite horizon and staff clone ambush. As long as mirage has a staff equipped and infinite horizon trait, he can probably slot whatever the heck he wants into the 2 remaining trait lines and still be a condi threat. The current CI dueling/chaos build just adds some interrupts and cc pressure to the staff build, but it's not what causes the actual damage. That's still staff clones and it's ambush. If Ci, daze mantra or pistol 5 get nerfed, mirage will still play condi, just with a more defensive/utility focused build (might be dueling/inspiration then).

> > > If we actually want to remove that toxic condi mirage playstyle, I suggest reworking the staff ambush or introducing a skill split to reduce the condi application from clone's staff ambush. What I don't want to see is core mesmer or chrono (rip chrono 15.07 btw) getting nerfed even more because of mirage. Power mirage or even condi shatter builds (with illusion traitline) aren't broken at all, and if condi mirage is played, it should be condi shatter since shatters can be evaded and have actual cooldowns, instead of clone ambush spam. Mesmer got hit with so many nerfs over the last months, that IH staff is probably the only good build left for them, and it is super cheesy and annoying to fight. Mirge and mesmer could be much better than this degenerate playstyle.

> > One of the culripts, in my opinion, is condi duration amulets, look how much high base duration conditions benefit from it, especially staff ambush and passive trait in dueling that cause bleeds.

> > Look at SCEPTER ambush as well - without condi duration its damage so pathetic that u can just wait a bit and it wouldnt do anything but then you have sharper images trait and you being unploaded with barrage of critical strikes from the clones that result in HUGE amount of bleed stacks in no time just from this trait alone, immobilize helps to land all your hits and boost damage further for cmirage, while pretty big damage loss on power builds.

> >

> The condi ambushes but also the normal clone autoattacks are insanely overperforming when it comes to condi application that is why Condimesmer (in particular Mirage with double overperforming autoattacks) will always be an issue no matter how much you nerf the traits, weapons or shatters. Compare the power dmg from clones on their autoattacks (around 1-8 dmg per attack) and sword/ gs ambush clone dmg (mostly way less than 1k per dodge/ clone) with the condi dmg from clones coming from staff, axe or scepter. It is the same here, the problem is not IH itself, the problem is the imbalance from mesmer clones when it comes to condis and we already have this imbalance on core Mesmer. Condi clones do 10 times more dmg than power clones with autoattack and ambushes. Clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks need to be nerfed to power lvl. Atm Condimes can play very defensive and let clones do all the work.

Dont you feel like something splipping from your sight ? Mesmer personal damage is garbage because clones/phantasms exists.

**Okay I have a challenge for you: find me skills from the mesmer kit that would make condi mesmer viable without clones/phantasms**

Mesmer shatters for condi mesmer are pretty worthless (for mirage, chrono will try to spam f2 cuz REWIENDIER!) but for power its very useful as the main "F1" shatter has lowest CD and do only power damage and F2 is pretty much useless outside of boon rip or just abit more damage.

Clones applying condition always been there since game release. They wanted it to be condi spec desperately and so we have mirage that everyone enjoy.

> Means instead changing Chrono for no reason in a bad way no one asked for and never touch the rly op stuff like Lost Time (still an issue also when Chrono doesn't get played atm) and Mantra of Pain (still an issue also on Mirage and core builds) they need to do this:

**Yes chrono was killed for the sake of having PoF vastly better than HoT, all HoT specs got gutted/demolished you name it.**

> 1. Nerf condi clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks to power dmg lvl

Wont work, condi mesmer have no reliable or any source of condi damage except clones, condi application through shatters were guted.

> 2. CI needs to be reworked by deleting the immob (we said give Chill with icd if i remember right @"praqtos.9035" ?)

No icd, why interrupt traits need an ICD? Actually its weird trait and hard to make it "fine" without making too good or too meh for a grandmaster trait. One boon one condition would feel underwhelming...

> 3. no might stacks in a defensive traitline like Chaos. For all classes Anet needs to create way higher opportunity costs in dmg for taking (passive) sustain

If you apply the same on every traitline in the game to be one dimensional and offer only defensive options/offensive/utility in the entire traitline.

I will repeat myself : spellbreaker defensive-offensive traitline with might gen-utility option in 1. Engineer traitline responsible for vomiting boons -> Elixirs. Tools that focus on being utility-endurance traitline also provide 10% damage bonus. Etc. If you do for one, do for everyone

> 4. Mantra of Pain still needs cds inbetween charges and inbetween uses and less dmg. We could also consider a remake and turn it into something bahave like the Ele utility Arcane Blast.

You can delete MoP or nerf in any way you please.

> Also why Anet detroyed Portal to then give Thief an even better pre nerf version, with no counterplay at all? You can't even see if a Portal got placed or not. Thief can literally bait you without even using it.

Then you see thieves being UH UH its bad, then suddenly this will become a super meta choice. That crap not just invisible, that also recharge background, you teleport there, decap, place another portal and go somewhere again. (tho its 1 way for 1 person iirc)

> Anet balance lately is rly out of control... and i thought it can't get worse but Anet proved me wrong with last balance patch.

My thread when I said that new team succ and old team had an idea what they are working on... **it was deleted as its not allowed to say ANYTHING what they wouldnt like about them**

> I still don't understand why we have 30 new mirage complain traits a day during perma evade Ele got buffed, Holos still perma miniburst and cc with high sustain, Fb+Necros still dominate every teamcomp, Condithieves killing you with one instant steal attack+1 skill if you don't have massive condiremove and so on

Because they are lost in clones.

**They think if it was only 1 guy gang-banging them its fine**.

**But when they have to face 1 player and 3 paper-made clones, they think its not ONE VS ONE thus unfair**. Pretty obvious

Edit: some typos, added alternative to CI, tho, its hard to decide what should be there, if should be at all.

Also I would like to add : Daze mantra dont need 1.5s daze. 1s should be enough.

I think they should solve this problem throug giving Mirage real ambush skill with the damage,so you have to cast it yourself if you want to do the damage and reduce clone ambushes to 1s to be more of distracting than 80% of memser damage. So IH wouldnt be no longer a MUST have to make mirage work. If we want to remove MC functionality then revert undeserved/unjustified nerfs and we have a deal :D

> @"UBcktieDL.5318" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > One of the culripts, in my opinion, is condi duration amulets, look how much high base duration conditions benefit from it, especially staff ambush and passive trait in dueling that cause bleeds.

> > Look at SCEPTER ambush as well - without condi duration its damage so pathetic that u can just wait a bit and it wouldnt do anything but then you have sharper images trait and you being unploaded with barrage of critical strikes from the clones that result in HUGE amount of bleed stacks in no time just from this trait alone, immobilize helps to land all your hits and boost damage further for cmirage, while pretty big damage loss on power builds.

> >

> I'm actually fine with sharper images. To get meaningful damage from the bleed stacks, you need to invest into precision, cdmg and expertise (=deadshot or wanderer amulet). It's a heavy investment into damage, leaving the mirage quite squishy and extremely vulnerable to targeted ranged pressure. It's literally the equivalent to marauder/demolisher on power classes, so these builds should have high damage.

If its fine then we all should stop complaining about condi builds, case closed. /s

> The problematic part is, spamming clones and casting a few ambushes is enough to have the required damage output. The build has no telegraphed hard hitting skills, and fighting it feels like playing against a mindless spammer who interrupts everything you try to do. mirage should have less emphasis on passive clone play and should be rewarded for hitting shatters accurately.

Few ambushes is enough? For who? Or you mean few ambushes from the mesmer+3 clones is enough?

Can you tell me what skills are "hard hitting" and have no telegraph?

F1 direct damage,does nothing at all. F2 gutted, F3 can be used to interrupt something but you probably want to keep your clones for more ambushes,if you have endurance for it, F4 is self defense. With IH you want your clones to be alive, shattering is pretty much pointless

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Xervite.5493" said:

> > > > The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

> > >

> > > current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.

> > > I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.

> > TLDR : take away damage from the clones and trasnfer to mesmer hismelf.

> > I wish power memer would be good too ;-;

>

> yep, right now shattering clones on staff is usually DPS loss, becouse ambush clones deal ALOT of dmg. depends on situation ofc. I like how ambush works on axe, having clones ambush with you is nice small bonus, instead of must have. then again axe is kinda kitten so i dont know if i should be wishing for axe treatment.

They could give the real damage on ambush and make clone ambush lasts only 1s, so to do the damage, you would need to use ambush yourself, not to rely on the clones. Also axe was destroyed and worthless, was my favorite weapon until they took away all damage and cant be casted backwards, RIP.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Xervite.5493" said:

> > The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

>

> current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.

> I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.

TLDR : take away damage from the clones and trasnfer to mesmer hismelf.

I wish power memer would be good too ;-;

> @"UBcktieDL.5318" said:

> It's actually just the interaction between mirage cloak, infinite horizon and staff clone ambush. As long as mirage has a staff equipped and infinite horizon trait, he can probably slot whatever the heck he wants into the 2 remaining trait lines and still be a condi threat. The current CI dueling/chaos build just adds some interrupts and cc pressure to the staff build, but it's not what causes the actual damage. That's still staff clones and it's ambush. If Ci, daze mantra or pistol 5 get nerfed, mirage will still play condi, just with a more defensive/utility focused build (might be dueling/inspiration then).

> If we actually want to remove that toxic condi mirage playstyle, I suggest reworking the staff ambush or introducing a skill split to reduce the condi application from clone's staff ambush. What I don't want to see is core mesmer or chrono (rip chrono 15.07 btw) getting nerfed even more because of mirage. Power mirage or even condi shatter builds (with illusion traitline) aren't broken at all, and if condi mirage is played, it should be condi shatter since shatters can be evaded and have actual cooldowns, instead of clone ambush spam. Mesmer got hit with so many nerfs over the last months, that IH staff is probably the only good build left for them, and it is super cheesy and annoying to fight. Mirge and mesmer could be much better than this degenerate playstyle.

One of the culripts, in my opinion, is condi duration amulets, look how much high base duration conditions benefit from it, especially staff ambush and passive trait in dueling that cause bleeds.

Look at SCEPTER ambush as well - without condi duration its damage so pathetic that u can just wait a bit and it wouldnt do anything but then you have sharper images trait and you being unploaded with barrage of critical strikes from the clones that result in HUGE amount of bleed stacks in no time just from this trait alone, immobilize helps to land all your hits and boost damage further for cmirage, while pretty big damage loss on power builds.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> It is CI and Mantra of Distraction. Those aren't the only problems with mirage. But they are the main problems right now. And if they weren't using staff they would go Axe or maybe Sword.

Where are these OP CI power builds been and where they are now? Playing chaos on power spec means huge damage loss but not the case for cmirage(rather its damage boost beacuse might stacks). Sure the problem lies only in CI/mantra and not cmirage itself ;)

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > Thieves don't have blocks, DD does and it is on more than twice the CD and twice lower block duration than the one used by Mirage.

> > Obviously speaking about cmirage, CI mirage ? Probably mean scepter2 that is blocking one attack... dont seems like you know it.Lets educate you : blocking 1 attack with follow up 0.5s evade =/= 1.5s blocking.

> >

>

> Point was not how many attack it blocks, point is it is 8sec CD block on a weapon skill vs 20sec CD block on utility, I'd take Block incorporated in Weapon any day over BD to have a free utillity slot and am pretty sure quite a few people would agree. Even if it blocks one attack _(and has an evade, and spawns clones, does direct dmg and applies condi)_ it still is mere 8sec CD.

Ok, now lets scold guardians for having mace, warriors for having block on their weapons ?

> > > Mirage always had more blinds than thief and I do not consider Stealth to be defense, but rather utility, that's why I didn't mention Blinds nor Stealth as Defense in Mirage kit either, it would be hypocritical to say Thief has Stealth or Blinds as defense but Mirage doesn't even though Mirage has access to all of those.

> > Hmmmm, no. Thief always had more. Old blind shatter was once per 12/24/38/50 seconds. Now this trait is dead asf.. How many times d/p could blind you? Far more often.

> You speaks about education and follow with multiple factual mistakes, read.

> Old blind shatter was, 10/22/32/42 and torch with 24 + Blind whenever you interrupted, now each clone blinded on its own so Mirage could blind a beautiful 12 times + 1 from torch + more any time it interrupted, which kind of makes up for more blinds than the 3 blinds _(4 if you waited for the last ini)_ thief could use before running out of Ini _(locking itself out of very single weapon skill on both weapon sets)_ and instantly dying because of it, so if Mirage was not dumb and actually shattered carefully it not only had more blinds but it would also not mean its certain death unlike it did for Thief.

I didnt count trait that reduce shaters as I keep in mind illusions arent taken in favor of chaos or power variation with dueling/domi. Educate yourself now about mesmer traitlines/CD's as you never been counting your Bandit's defense old 15/12s traited cooldown, weird u didnt talk about scepter traited. Its hard to understand what build or timeline you are talking about tbh.

12 BLINDS????????????????????????????? Damn some strong weed there.

So you say "thief cant spam it so he will die". So shattering all cooldowns into nowhere just to blind was a great idea to be left without any shatter as well?

> > Stealth is a defense, a lot of skills need a target and you cant know where did they go, especially thieves that can chain it and you had to guess where is he and **if he is stealthing somewhere in the corner to decap** as soon as you go. Forgot the time of PU being 100%? The moans... Because mesmer had the stealth uptime compared to thieves.

>

> The part I "bolded" out is the reason why Stealth is utility, most skills actually don't require a target _(coincidentally most Mirage skills do require it)_, try to fight someone as a thief and then use Stealth as a defense in a way you'd had to use block or evade. It simply is not possible, you will still take the dmg, you will still be suspectible to all the condi, etc. Stealth can only be used somewhat defensively if you already managed to get away from the opponent which alone for thief ment you got **** and Stealth is not gonna make you win that fight, it was, however, true for DE. In current Meta there is Thief build that can chain it, as I said D/P is not meta anymore and even d/p could not chain it as its Ini ran out faster than the stealth duration so similar to the blinds of D/P it would also just waste all of thief Ini and kill the thief as a result.

> However I intentionally didn't list Stealth as defensive measure for Mirage just as I didn't list it for Thief for those reasons, so I don't see why are we arguing about it since it is irrelevant.

More like my opinion, its pretty defensive measure as well helps to stop focus fire and gain some distance, never said its just as same as block/evade. Just remember good old times.

> > > I am not complaining about Mirage evassivnes, I am saying that DD is simply supposed to have more.

> > There is only weaver who rival in that and mesmer is no way near. So what the point...I'm missing something?

>

> Yes, you are likely missing something because I don't see how was your reply to that post relevant. What does Weaver have to do with Thief having more evades than Mirage? I am going to go ahead and guess that same as the other person you are missing the point that I am saying it is a good thing DD has more evades than Mirage and am **NOT** saying that DD has less evades than Mirage but should have more.

>

> > > Mirage's build with 8-second CD 2sec Duration block that spawns clones

> > You are making the same mistake, said above about scepter 2.

>

> I am not, it is a 2 sec duration, doesn't speak of attacks blocked which is not even the point, hence what I wrote in the first reply to you.

>

> > >just saying that Mesmer weapon skills are very much no-worse than thieves.

> > Spammable evades =/= evades on the cooldown. Spammable evades ->>>>>>>>>>>0.5-1s evade on 8-15 seconds cd *that is undeniable truth*.

>

> Again, Evades are Thief only defense with occasional use of one-time mobility to run away. 3x Evade on sword _(assuming you didn't hit anything then it is just 1 evade)_ and 3x evade if on Staff is no worse or better than what Mirage can do with its Weapon skills. You keep invoking the _"spammable"_ argument as some holy commandment while the truth is, if thief **actually** spammed it then it is completely and utterly dead. Thief MUST NOT spam anything unless he is just gonna get absolutely KO'ed, you are completely wrongly assuming that just because Thief has **the option** to spam something then it is a good and effective thing to do, there is **nothing** that kills thief faster than if he actually decided to use that option and spam any of those. Hence why I mentioned that the older Mirage build didn't have to spam to have more blinds than D/P thief while D/P thief in order to have multiple blinds had to commit sepuku and then during a respawn screen was like "oh, at least I used 3 blinds".

I wish this "evade spam" would be just an exaggeration but when thief hold the node for 10+ seconds against 3 people(was an AT) alone without taking any damage thats makes you think something is clearly dumb is happening right under your nose and SPOILERSSSSS he just shadowstepped away as soon ran out from cds.

Ye I heard yo story, 12 blinds + torch + interrupts + some weed. Great.

> > > I hope you are not intentionally misinterpreting what I said, I **never** said that Mesmer filled all the roles, I said **Mirage did** and that is undeniable truth.

> > What roles? Dueling/outnumbering = all roles? Still does the same iirc.

>

> Duelist, Roamer, Team-fighter/DPS and Support those are the roles of Conquest, so since I said _"Mirage performed all the roles except Support"_ then it did perform All the roles except support just as I said. That did you just pick two roles out of four and completely misinterpret what I said is not my problem nor is it your valid argument.

Mirage good at TEAMFIGHTS?! Oh boy... Actually ye, you can believe in whatever you want, that wont make your "argument" valid, like this 12 +++ blinds.

Ah ye, i'm ignorant for arguing with you... gotta fix it

Didnt want to comment but heh ...

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> Thieves don't have blocks, DD does and it is on more than twice the CD and twice lower block duration than the one used by Mirage.

Obviously speaking about cmirage, CI mirage ? Probably mean scepter2 that is blocking one attack... dont seems like you know it.Lets educate you : blocking 1 attack with follow up 0.5s evade =/= 1.5s blocking.

> Mirage always had more blinds than thief and I do not consider Stealth to be defense, but rather utility, that's why I didn't mention Blinds nor Stealth as Defense in Mirage kit either, it would be hypocritical to say Thief has Stealth or Blinds as defense but Mirage doesn't even though Mirage has access to all of those.

Hmmmm, no. Thief always had more. Old blind shatter was once per 12/24/38/50 seconds. Now this trait is dead asf.. How many times d/p could blind you? Far more often.

Stealth is a defense, a lot of skills need a target and you cant know where did they go, especially thieves that can chain it and you had to guess where is he and if he is stealthing somewhere in the corner to decap as soon as you go. Forgot the time of PU being 100%? The moans... Because mesmer had the stealth uptime compared to thieves.

> I am not complaining about Mirage evassivnes, I am saying that DD is simply supposed to have more.

There is only weaver who rival in that and mesmer is no way near. So what the point...I'm missing something?

> Mirage's build with 8-second CD 2sec Duration block that spawns clones

You are making the same mistake, said above about scepter 2.

>just saying that Mesmer weapon skills are very much no-worse than thieves.

Spammable evades =/= evades on the cooldown. Spammable evades ->>>>>>>>>>>0.5-1s evade on 8-15 seconds cd *that is undeniable truth*.

> I hope you are not intentionally misinterpreting what I said, I **never** said that Mesmer filled all the roles, I said **Mirage did** and that is undeniable truth.

What roles? Dueling/outnumbering = all roles? Still does the same iirc.

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > @"Chorazin.4107" said:

> > > > @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> > > > It's the official forums, dude. What do you expect if you underpay some outsourced indian guy?

> > >

> > > Yeah these forums are not only worthless for any sort of constructive feedback. But also more heavily moderated than Jews in kitten Germany.

> > >

> > > Pretty much log on, play, laugh at how bad some kitten is. Log off. Complaining on the forums is a waste of time. Even if the critique is well thought out, sensible and has good data behind the conclusion drawn.

> >

> > You say that, but you'd be surprised how many of the changes that get suggested or even mentioned get implemented. For example, I highly suspect that I'm personally responsible to the changes to Mallyx, because in my baseline tests I lamented that all of the DPS for condi renegade was locked into two skills.

>

> Every single mirage nerf was preceded by a respective "suggestion" as a nerf x and mirage will be fine. Every single time.

> Some buffs are also taken into account but are fewer.

> While I suggested and compiled a mesmer community buffs/thread, I would have prefered if ANerf had some competent people buffing and nerfing according to their own vision.

Give up Mohlla, they now threaten to delete my account :joy:

Just let this whine squad and the most c@ncerous/toxic community to finish alrdy dead game, just let it be.I'm done, I suggest you to do the same

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > Cant really think of any reason to use a 1 way 5 person portal in spvp.

> >

> > To take the big hunky warrior back with you to far once the opposing necro with no LF thinks its okay to stand there.

> > To rescue that trouble guard by porting him to top of clocktower

> > Instant decap

> >

>

> see? someone can see the potential. thank you.

Surprise boulders from nowhere.Depends on the cd as well

> @"mrauls.6519" said:

> Going to hit you all with **[spear of Justice](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spear_of_Justice "Spear of Justice")**

Noooooooo. Nerf DH someone.... LB3 too op >:(

@"Dave.6819"

Edit: Whatever. I had enough of him

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" The problem is not that you aren't a mesmer main, the problem is that you have no idea about mesmers and still give suggestions.

>

> In this thread, I did not give any suggestion. I made a statement that Chrono would be fine in pve. You guys are kitten sometimes.

>

> And furthermore, the legendary thread that all you Mesmer mains keep referring to, was the thread that I suggested a change to infinite horizon and illusionary ambush back when Mirage had a bit too much defensive play, which is basically the same exact thing everyone else was suggesting. I just better explained why, than most other people. Aside from that, I have quite seriously never once even commented on anything Mesmer related. Get your facts straight.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" The problem is not that you aren't a mesmer main, the problem is that you have no idea about mesmers and still give suggestions.

> >

> > This.

> >

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > Yup, I'm no Mesmer main. I always drop my 2 cents worth of suggestions for nerfs of buffs on other classes as well, including Ranger/Soulbast/Druid. I was actually one of the first people who said Sic Em needed a nerf. So you Mirage mains can go ahead and stop victimizing yourselves. It's annoying, please stop.

> > >

> >

> > If you don't even understand the most basic mechanics, how can you give suggestions? Also who ever mentioned Mirage? You certainly didn't. None of the mesmer/chrono players did in this context. Stop trying to deflect and play the victim role. You are clueless as to the most basic mesmer/chrono/mirage mechanics.

> >

> > As to your suggestions considering druid/soulbeast/ranger, all I see is a whine thread here. So what gives? Not happy with how Arenanet addressed your class in this balance patch? Welcome to mesmer world for the past 2 years.

>

> **^ That's exactly what I'm talking about right there, with these Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage mains. Everything is drama to you guys. Has to be drama. No mains of any other class act like this. For whatever reason, Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage mains MUST turn every discussion somehow into Mesmer talk, and victimize themselves and/or pessimistically scrutinize anyone & everyone who says anything at all about Mesmer. It's weird boys, get over it.**

They both stated the obvious you are not just "not mesmer main" you have no clue about the class even a tiny bit. Second response was to your

> I always drop my 2 cents worth of suggestions for nerfs of buffs on other classes as well

You have no clue about any class, nerf/buff suggestions from such person is nothing but a joke.

Your eternal mesmer hate :

What did you even explained ?

> Ultimately, the knowledgable portion of the community has identified 3x problems:

> * Infinite Horizon

> * Illusionary Ambush

> * Axes of Symmetry

Good explanation sir, aside that you were whining in every single thread about mirage, couldnt care less about your walls of tears about it.

>Yes, I do have a vendetta towards seeing Mirage nerfed

^From Countless thread. Im not surprised.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > Mesmer is pretty much irrelevant in common T4+CMs, firebrigade replaced it entirely and literally nobody looking for it. (They agree to take chrono if they are tired to wait for renegade :joy: )

>

> This.

>

> Get with the times, stop runnig inefficient comps. Arenanet doesn't want chrono and druid to remain meta. Jump on the Firebrigade bandwagon until the next expansions with new elite specializations.

I have seen some pretty funny post in balance thread its sounded like:

You can just play something like : 2 DH, quickbrand,heal FB + renegade. Its safe to main guardian for wvw/pve/pvp (if you agree to be a support)