praqtos.9035

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > > @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

> > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > > > > @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > > > > > > @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > > > > > > > > > Soulbeast performs it's role like Holo/SB perform their roles, you nerf soulbeast because it's over performing without looking at Holo / SB then I'm not sure how you could even look at balancing as a whole.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > A lot of people, myself included, believe all three are power-crept and overtuned. There are plenty of discussions about all three. This one happens to be focused on one of them, but that doesn't mean the others aren't an issue.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So just nerf duelist roles then across the board? Is your solution? Nothing to give them back? No other classes you feel could benefit buffs instead of nerfing an entire class role across the board instead of just flat nerfs?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I believe the solution to power creep issues is not to engage in further power creep. So yes, nerf before buff, if buff at all.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I mean for Holo it might even be fine because they have Scrapper btw , but do you really want to the meta to be back in the state of bunker with added barrier on top of it now?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I want neither a bunker meta nor a burst meta. Something in between please.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > **So, you nerf those duelist roles right.. Basically what happens is revenant will essentially become god tier even at side node capability on top of it's current capability since it doesn't have to worry about side node duelists and you will complain about revenant even more than it already is and thief will be even better since it doesn't have to worry about duelist's anymore and can freely rotate and outcap even much more now so you'll be complaining about thief more**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Revenant can do with slight shaves too. These duelists will still be fine. Just not a tier or two above everything else as they are now. I'm not saying to gut them.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is just a few things that would change essentially when you don't have to worry about duelists holding side node roles btw.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is the issue when you just focus on one single thing. You don't understand those classes perform a role , if you nerf them you essentially allow power creep across the board from other classes because now they don't have to worry about them anymore.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You basically will just be complaining more about another X class because Y no longer exists to counter pressure them anymore.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Roles, not classes.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm personally pretty aware of the duelist's role considering that's pretty much all I play.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Everything else has already been significantly nerfed except the big three or four mentioned.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What would you suggest to nerf the duelist classes then between SB / Holo / Spellbreaker? Do you play holo or spellbreaker or what class do you play and what build? Because aside from the sic em nerf which really is sort of irrelevant you're asking to gut SB and make it useless.

> > > > >

> > > > > I've already answered this here and elsewhere, but to summarize:

> > > > >

> > > > > What those three have in common is they pretty much have everything: survivability, mobility, and damage. They're not mere "jacks of all trades" either. They're better in some departments than, or very close to, specs that actually specialize in those departments. They're one-stop shops for all the goodies with virtually no trade offs. Not only are they duelists/side-noders, they can adequately multi-role (and thus have the most carry potential) since they're so overloaded. Side-noder, team-fighter, roamer, plusser--they're good at all. The only thing they might lack is group support.

> > > > >

> > > > > Almost everything else has to give up something. E.g. thieves are squishy, eles lack damage, necros lack mobility, etc. **Yes, I get that duelists need to be well-rounded, but they shouldn't rival specialists in any given department as they do now.** In exchange for being well-rounded their survivability, mobility, and damage should all be middling.

> > > > >

> > > > > In short:

> > > > >

> > > > > Soulbeast - Check the OP. Basically tone down the overabundant damage multipliers, including Sic 'Em, and unblockable. Make them actually have to "duel" and not just opportunistically instagib from left field, or strong-arm more balanced specs in 1v1.

> > > > >

> > > > > Spellbreaker - Increase cool down on Rampage for starters.

> > > > >

> > > > > Holosmith - Tone down healing. It shouldn't be able to full heal so often and so easily mid-fight with no investment in healing.

> > > > >

> > > > > There have been more suggestions, but I'm sticking to the basic minimum so as not to overreach, derail, or overlap what has already been discussed extensively elsewhere. And again, I'm not in favor of gutting anything. Just reigning in outliers to be on par with the others.

> > > >

> > > > Well a lot of classes are nerfed. And none of it was because of you.

> > >

> > > I don't think it was either. Even though a lot of the nerfs coincide with what I've suggested. Rather, the more significant nerfs seem in direct response to what a lot of people have suggested. I do think Anet listens to us, to an extent.

> > >

> > > > As a matter of truthful fact, you don't pvp.

> > >

> > > Seriously? Just because you're keeping tabs on me in game or something (creepy much?) and happened to see me doing Karka Queen a moment ago does not mean I don't PvP.

> >

> > You didn't deny it.

> > You don't pvp.

> > And if I am so wrong, what's your rank?

>

> I'm not going to indulge your strange personal vendetta. Sorry you're on the losing side of the nerf debate. Best get used to it or move on.

He is so mad to stalk you in the game ? You probably hurt his feelings big time.

Would be funny to see if they really disable pvp forum for you if your rating is less than 1700 :joy:

> @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > > @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > > > > > Pretty sure people had issue only when it went of twice in a row and that thief could deny caps with it. If they made the reset have like around 10 seconds in between casts so it is not daggerstorm steal daggerstorm, wouldn't have been so bad, but now they now nerfed it for pvp and it feels like huge buff for pve since you are not locked in animation.

> > > > > > 10s cd on daggerstorm is fine? :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy:

> > > > > > Can mesmer distortion to be 10s as well ?

> > > > > > I dont see how its buff in pve, they use elite venom for heavy CC.

> > > > > > They need to change improv to not recharge it, ever, not nerf DS.

> > > > >

> > > > > Are you really comparing mesmer sustain to thief sustain?

> > > > I didnt compare anything, if he think 4s evade-dps mode is fine, just invul for ~1-3s avg is would be pretty fair.

> > > > Its been calculated that core s/d thief has highest evasion uptime compared to weaver and UNNERFED mirage with 1s MC, now mesmer evasion is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar behind. Not sure why you brought it here, even Sind said DS shouldnt be recharged by improv and there is nothing "skilled" about it this elite, want to argue with him as well ?

> > >

> > > I don't give a kitten what Sindrener says lmao

> > >

> > > If you nerf DS then you nerf the only thing that keeps thief actually playable in top end PvP and basically relegates to a literal decap bot which ironically is the only reason it's in PvP at the moment is it's decapping potential anyway , not double DS btw.

> > >

> > > If you actually knew thief, you'd know this.

> > I dont care what you think what keeps thief viable or not. All I care about is stupid interaction between DS and improv to RANDOMLY recharge it.

> > O, want an example ? Chrono with a scepter 3, that was the only thing that kept it viable, but oh nooooooooo, it was over-nerfed even more than it was before the buff,that wasnt popular at all and only one team ever brought it in mAT and nobody else. If you still dont get it -> they dont care if its keep X class viable or not, they just nerf it if they feel like it.

>

> Thief is not in matches for double DS from improv so it's not as broken as you think, this is the point you seem to keep missing. It's in PvP matches right now because it's decapping power, mobility and 1up pressure potential. The only reason.

>

> You could essentially nerf improv and drop double DS and it will still be in matches ruining your day as a mesmer because it's your natural counter.

>

> Again, clueless about thief.

You are the only one who is clueless. Even the best thief in the game that is far more intelligent than 99.9% of the forum said himself that is broken but hey you know better than anyone apparently :joy:

Cba to argue with stubborn delusional people, wont respond to you,ever.

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> The problem is not the skill itself, it's an elite with 90s cd it has to be good or at least worth to use it.

> The real problem is that it gets reset by improv and that's super broken, improv shouldn't restore elite/heals period. I wish I had my vod where in one of my matches improv procs DS 7 times lol

This. When improv hit the trick category you get : healing skill (evade), roll for initiative(evade+initiative obsly), DS another 4s of evade and AoE damage. Thats literally BETTER than CS elite F5. RNG shouldnt ever affect competive game modes.

> @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> It's also funny how you define sustain by how much evasion each class... Not everything else in Mirage's kit btw

>

> Shows truly how much you literally know nothing about sustain and it's forms in PvP

>

> Smh

That also shows that you know nothing about "sustain" (that had nothing to do with my post, alienbrain), avoid damage->facetank damage fyi.

> @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > > > Pretty sure people had issue only when it went of twice in a row and that thief could deny caps with it. If they made the reset have like around 10 seconds in between casts so it is not daggerstorm steal daggerstorm, wouldn't have been so bad, but now they now nerfed it for pvp and it feels like huge buff for pve since you are not locked in animation.

> > > > 10s cd on daggerstorm is fine? :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy:

> > > > Can mesmer distortion to be 10s as well ?

> > > > I dont see how its buff in pve, they use elite venom for heavy CC.

> > > > They need to change improv to not recharge it, ever, not nerf DS.

> > >

> > > Are you really comparing mesmer sustain to thief sustain?

> > I didnt compare anything, if he think 4s evade-dps mode is fine, just invul for ~1-3s avg is would be pretty fair.

> > Its been calculated that core s/d thief has highest evasion uptime compared to weaver and UNNERFED mirage with 1s MC, now mesmer evasion is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar behind. Not sure why you brought it here, even Sind said DS shouldnt be recharged by improv and there is nothing "skilled" about it this elite, want to argue with him as well ?

>

> I don't give a kitten what Sindrener says lmao

>

> If you nerf DS then you nerf the only thing that keeps thief actually playable in top end PvP and basically relegates to a literal decap bot which ironically is the only reason it's in PvP at the moment is it's decapping potential anyway , not double DS btw.

>

> If you actually knew thief, you'd know this.

I dont care what you think what keeps thief viable or not. All I care about is stupid interaction between DS and improv to RANDOMLY recharge it.

O, want an example ? Chrono with a scepter 3, that was the only thing that kept it viable, but oh nooooooooo, it was over-nerfed even more than it was before the buff,that wasnt popular at all and only one team ever brought it in mAT and nobody else. If you still dont get it -> they dont care if its keep X class viable or not, they just nerf it if they feel like it.

> @"ZhouX.8742" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > Pretty sure people had issue only when it went of twice in a row and that thief could deny caps with it. If they made the reset have like around 10 seconds in between casts so it is not daggerstorm steal daggerstorm, wouldn't have been so bad, but now they now nerfed it for pvp and it feels like huge buff for pve since you are not locked in animation.

> > 10s cd on daggerstorm is fine? :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy:

> > Can mesmer distortion to be 10s as well ?

> > I dont see how its buff in pve, they use elite venom for heavy CC.

> > They need to change improv to not recharge it, ever, not nerf DS.

>

> Are you really comparing mesmer sustain to thief sustain?

I didnt compare anything, if he think 4s evade-dps mode is fine, just invul for ~1-3s avg is would be pretty fair.

Its been calculated that core s/d thief has highest evasion uptime compared to weaver and UNNERFED mirage with 1s MC, now mesmer evasion is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar behind. Not sure why you brought it here, even Sind said DS shouldnt be recharged by improv and there is nothing "skilled" about it this elite, want to argue with him as well ?

> @"McPero.3287" said:

> Also garbage balance patch, stuff getting buffed instead of everything getting nerfed in terms of damage, boons and healing.

Agree, they push powercreen further and further instead of nerfs. Im afraid they think everything is fine...

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> Pretty sure people had issue only when it went of twice in a row and that thief could deny caps with it. If they made the reset have like around 10 seconds in between casts so it is not daggerstorm steal daggerstorm, wouldn't have been so bad, but now they now nerfed it for pvp and it feels like huge buff for pve since you are not locked in animation.

10s cd on daggerstorm is fine? :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy: :joy:

Can mesmer distortion to be 10s as well ?

I dont see how its buff in pve, they use elite venom for heavy CC.

They need to change improv to not recharge it, ever, not nerf DS.

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > > Anet didn't exactly say it will be a **_fair_** tradeoff :^)

> > >

> > > Yu guys got kitten gutted.

> > You spelled slaughtered wrong

> >

> > I have a huge facepalm after reading sigmoid comment tho

>

> Nah sig has a point the shatters could very well be strong. The issue i have is the feel good aspect which i think got hella gutted for their shatters.

I cant imagine them being so strong to turn blind eye on the loss of IP that made entire mesmer class playble.

> @"Edge.8724" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"Edge.8724" said:

> > > I'll be honest here, I first thought this thread was about elementalists.

> > >

> > > Mesmers are still pretty strong. You just need to work more to use it effectively now.

> > I absolutely love how absolutely clueless people invade and tell "its fine,just work more to be effective!"

>

> Whoah, you seem a lot upset...

> I don't "invade", I'm telling my point of view also based on my experience with the class. You can continue judging me if that pleases you.

>

> Mesmers used to recently be pretty much low risk high reward because of its cheese mechanics. This might not be my main, but I die way less often with my mesmer than my main, this tells something...

We all know from complaints on the forum - clones are cheese mechanic, pls delete so they cant shatter or mesmer stay functional. Play shadowarts DE and feel like a god since that would be a challenge to die even once per game which wont be an indicator to anything.

> You can keep telling I'm "absolutely clueless", I'll say you don't like the changes, even tough you haven't tested the class after these yet. I also can't conclude anything since I haven't tested it yet myself (which I'll do once the update comes).

I did play mesmer since the release and I bet you didnt. Ever heard about Illusionary persona? They made this trait baseline to make mesmer playble. Do you know they going to remove it AND F4 as "trade-off" ?

In the other thread other mesmer players also know whats up and spoke about it change as well, feel free to read.

> I'll still say it again; Mesmer is far from beeing underpowered.

Mesmer ? Like what is a mesmer? Core mesmer? Chrono condi mesmer? chrono power mesmer? Chrono had it comeback on phantasm rework and when scepter was insanely buffed and disappear as soon scepter power damage was gutted.

I can come to class forums and tell them the same - renegade,tempest,druid,drd and all specs that are not shining at the moment -> guys you are delusional, your class is far away from being underpowered and this would triggerd them all

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> I think dune cloak + auspicious anguish will make mirage over the top again. even if there is a small cd to AA its still gonna be pretty op, and chaos needed even more buffs lol.

Have you any idea that mirage will never take dune cloak as dropping IH means spec becomes unviable ?

Calling nerfs before anything went live, how typical from the clueless people. It was a replacement because F4 became CS for the chrono or you want chrono to use CS 3 times in a row? I wouldnt mind that since this trade off is a complete bs and nowhere near to be fair

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > i agree, mesmer has been OP for far too long

> > Just like every other spec that was on par with the mesmer or even stronger? Why not delete them all too? Because the game would be left without classes to choose from ?

>

> so which class can jump out of stealth, hit you for 24k damage and blink away? Name a couple please.

Deadeye can do it many times as he please.

1 HKO from stealth -> soulbeast but he can swoop away etc.

If you dont know memser use all his cooldowns and his only blink and stealth to do it, if you miss, you are without any cooldowns left and cant either stealth again or BLINK AWAY. On top of that there is nearly every class posses a oneshot build. Can you get more clueless than that?

Mesmer is OP because he can oneshot someone? Pretty laughable statement

> @"MrForz.1953" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > I absolutely love how absolutely clueless people invade and tell "its fine,just work more to be effective!"

>

> It's almost like telling Anet to delete the class.

From what I see they just deleted chronomancer, chaos interrupt mirage is the next and the last one that is left from the mesmer in pvp, not talkin about wvw/pve.

> @"ZeteCommander.4937" said:

> Excellent. I'm looking forward to redesign shatter of mirage.

They didnt change the shatters really, shatters do exactly what they did before but with an addition which cost chronomancer.... illusionary persona... which is... players that witnessed mesmer without it have a bad memories about it

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> Anet didn't exactly say it will be a **_fair_** tradeoff :^)

>

> Yu guys got kitten gutted.

You spelled slaughtered wrong

I have a huge facepalm after reading sigmoid comment tho

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > Ele was nerfed was too, reaper was slightly nerfed as well?

> > Chrono is stuck in 2012 and cant return anymore.

>

> Ele was buffed

It was looking like a buff to me as well but from what I have seen in balance thread eles demanded their class to be deleted xD

> @"Edge.8724" said:

> I'll be honest here, I first thought this thread was about elementalists.

>

> Mesmers are still pretty strong. You just need to work more to use it effectively now.

I absolutely love how absolutely clueless people invade and tell "its fine,just work more to be effective!"

> @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:

> Mesmer: New chrono shatters? MORE SLOW???? BUFFS!?!?!?!??

If you dont understand mesmer why you scream it was buffed? If anything thats a savage nerf. I hope you are right and chrono would be OP as you think :D

Ele was nerfed was too, reaper was slightly nerfed as well?

Chrono is stuck in 2012 and cant return anymore.

> @"foste.3098" said:

> idk lads, i think chrono will be fine after patch. You get more powerful shatters with the caveat of having clones up, just like it was in gw2 core.

>

> I think this will work: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAR8ensIClphVoB2oBEgilTj6sKiimgMAWgCoear2uF-jZxHQBw7JAYvyAA4gAQi9HI4FAAA

> You use traited phantasmal berzerker as ammo for your mind wreck burst which is powered up by casting power lock beforehand to apply slow though lost time and thus power up your burst even more due to danger time. Time catches up ensures your clones blitz to their target before getting cleaved down and shattered concentration softens up your target for follow ups (basically the standard gs burst but you have to wait a moment for the phantasms to become clones).

> To finish the build off you have inspiration for condition cleansing and to improve your signets.

You have a very little understanding of the memser... =/

Like its trying to this abomination to work, back then in 2012 "every mesmer and their mothers" had to trait for illusionary persona to make mesmer work, HOW THE HECK ITS GOING TO WORK NOW WITHOUT IT?!

All shatters are the same as @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said. Chrono wouldnt give a damn even if they delete f2 instead as no condi build is possible on chrono, with further core condition traits being heavily nerfed. The only difference suggested change that someone said loud "what if they delete f4 as a trade off...." happened .... @"Heartpains.7312" dont you said yourself, mesmer players kill the class? :D

I'm not looking forward to chrono changes, I can see how terrible its going to be, just as it was in 2012, at least back then we had traits that boosted clone/phanasms HP and gave retialiation to phantasms, which was deleted and signet of illusions lost HP boost so they die too quick now. Even Illusionary Reversion is gutted and not fixed for current chrono.

Like you use f4 but your clones disappeared, phantasms takes 2 years to become a clone, from what I can imagine its just really bad.

Power block bug still not fixed, skillful interrupt traits must be ruined in favor of CC spam for the better results.

We will see if its going to be that bad pretty soon

> @"derd.6413" said:

> i agree, mesmer has been OP for far too long

Just like every other spec that was on par with the mesmer or even stronger? Why not delete them all too? Because the game would be left without classes to choose from ?

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Lol. This is nowhere near delete :D Actualy it might be a buff for some meta builds

I wonder how this is a buff for pvp/wvw to delete so much needed IP and distortion?

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > * The Chaotic Interruption build floating around lately has been possible since the beginning (and was even stronger before). It's only around now because there are few other viable Mesmer builds as a result of countless nerfs up and down the core and elite specs, with little to no compensation or reworks, leaving several dead traits and skills, and almost no build variety.

>

> This is so true. I've been playing with CI since forever although in a power build.

> It is so easily hard countered it hurts, it only takes stab to shut down the entire build premise, that's it, one kitten boon shuts down entirely the build. And don't get me start with DD that are immune to MIC.

>

> It's always the same thing. BD is so op nerf it, BD is nerfed, mesmers change to CI, CI is so op nerf it, if mesmers changed to PU (which sucks in pvp but for the sake or argument) people will scream PU op nerf it, and there goes another traitline like it was already happened to others.

CI is absolutely meh on all power builds as power lose tons of DPS, like really stopping to do the damage. Warrior eles ranger and whatnot they all get stability and ignore it but they dont want adapt against this mirage build, tho, I still dont believe immobilize must be there despite it was always been a meme trait, mirage does damage through ambush-dueling traitline so they dont suffer from taking chaos at all.

Improvisation recharge Daggerstorm 24/7.

Rampage that barely got a scratch(while being buffed?) still does 9-11k damage while demolisher.

CI need immobilize removed just as much as this ones

> @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> OP'S..... Nerf what?

> Nothing else to nerf with out deleting all the builds that's left.

> Wich is none.

They just deleted chrono :pepehands: