Seera.5916

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @Seera.5916 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @Talindra.4958 said:

> > > > not sure about fixing elitism but perhaps fixing players own attitude towards the games first might help. I have seen people starting a month ago and never given up and achieved what they need. I don't see any problem for any new raiders to start today if they stop crying and actually start to put effort in it.

> > > > I pugged my way from start, I have seen people getting kicked, seen people refuse to change, seen people cry about everything but refuse to fit in. so these are the people that they should accept that you either need to fight for it to achieve it or leave it. similar to real life you cant forced urself to be a doctor, engineer, lawyer, artist, you need to put effort to train urself to it. and no point crying about it by only try 40 hours training?

> > > > we wipe over and over and over and over and over before we master how to play in a team .. how to manage mechanics. I also seen people try a few and they couldn't accept that they couldn't do it, they really have to say all the bad stuff about raids.

> > > > accept that, the fact there are a handful of raiders, and anet will continue to provide reasonable updates for them and similar to fractal, similar to living story. pvp & wvw? anet probably has a long term plan or none due to good reasons. so accept the fact and play or don't bother.

> > >

> > > Only I'm overqualified when it comes to raiding, but grouping in gw2 is too frustrating compared to other mmos.

> > >

> > > If I take your analogy of training to be a lawyer or doctor for years, and apply it to myself, then I already have put the time in, but it's as if I'm unable to show my diploma, a resume or work history to others.

> >

> > Except the diploma is proof of TRAINING. Work history is proof you've done the job before, and believe me it's harder to get a job as a doctor in one field if you've only had experience in a different field.

> >

> > You have not shown any proof that you've trained. Claiming you've watched a video is not proof. I'm not saying you haven't watched any videos, but people would lie if all they had to say was that they watched a few YouTube videos.

> >

> > You're frustrated that you have to socialize in an MMO in order to get into a group to raid?! Wow. And this is coming from a shy introvert who doesn't like communicating with people. But I will do it in MMO's or not partake in the content that requires it. And dungeons, raids, fractals, meta-maps, etc REQUIRE communication both before and during the encounter. I'm actually honestly SHOCKED that there is not MORE content than currently exists that requires me to group up with others or do without the rewards. This is multiplayer game, not a single player game.

>

> Your right there is no such thing as video game diploma but the fact of the matter is that I'm a very experienced raider, and whether anyone believes me or not I can one shot a boss after watching a YouTube video, I've done this many times before in many mmos. But there is no way to prove this or demonstrate any of my skill except for to join a training raid, which is designed (made up by the community as a stop gap measure) not to succeed and others in the group will make me look bad as we will fail over and over with no intent of success.

>

> I'm not wasting my time proving to people who I am in this manner, and I don't want to start my own group as this is way too much effort and others would then have to prove themselves to me and I'm not interested in that either as there is no way to easily connect with other good players. There are no other alternatives to this and there should be, because there are in other mmos.

And if I recall correctly, ANet said that raids were not meant to be PUG'ed. Meaning it was supposed to be difficulty for 10 strangers to band together to defeat the raid.

Meaning training raids are there to give you the training needed in order to form your own dedicated group. Be it by finding 9 other like minded individuals and becoming friends or be it by finding a guild that raids that takes you in after doing a trial run or two.

And one minute. You don't want to prove yourself to others, but you want them to prove themselves to you?!?!?!?!?! That's the most hypocritical thing you've said in this entire thread. If you want others to accept people at their word, then YOU need to be the one to start that movement. You need to go out there and start "take you at your word" groups when it comes to ability to learn or experience with the raid.

You can't have it both ways. You can't tell others to accept you without proof, but then turn around and not extend the same courtesy to other people.

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @Talindra.4958 said:

> > not sure about fixing elitism but perhaps fixing players own attitude towards the games first might help. I have seen people starting a month ago and never given up and achieved what they need. I don't see any problem for any new raiders to start today if they stop crying and actually start to put effort in it.

> > I pugged my way from start, I have seen people getting kicked, seen people refuse to change, seen people cry about everything but refuse to fit in. so these are the people that they should accept that you either need to fight for it to achieve it or leave it. similar to real life you cant forced urself to be a doctor, engineer, lawyer, artist, you need to put effort to train urself to it. and no point crying about it by only try 40 hours training?

> > we wipe over and over and over and over and over before we master how to play in a team .. how to manage mechanics. I also seen people try a few and they couldn't accept that they couldn't do it, they really have to say all the bad stuff about raids.

> > accept that, the fact there are a handful of raiders, and anet will continue to provide reasonable updates for them and similar to fractal, similar to living story. pvp & wvw? anet probably has a long term plan or none due to good reasons. so accept the fact and play or don't bother.

>

> Only I'm overqualified when it comes to raiding, but grouping in gw2 is too frustrating compared to other mmos.

>

> If I take your analogy of training to be a lawyer or doctor for years, and apply it to myself, then I already have put the time in, but it's as if I'm unable to show my diploma, a resume or work history to others.

Except the diploma is proof of TRAINING. Work history is proof you've done the job before, and believe me it's harder to get a job as a doctor in one field if you've only had experience in a different field.

You have not shown any proof that you've trained. Claiming you've watched a video is not proof. I'm not saying you haven't watched any videos, but people would lie if all they had to say was that they watched a few YouTube videos.

You're frustrated that you have to socialize in an MMO in order to get into a group to raid?! Wow. And this is coming from a shy introvert who doesn't like communicating with people. But I will do it in MMO's or not partake in the content that requires it. And dungeons, raids, fractals, meta-maps, etc REQUIRE communication both before and during the encounter. I'm actually honestly SHOCKED that there is not MORE content than currently exists that requires me to group up with others or do without the rewards. This is multiplayer game, not a single player game.

I'd rather not have reduced loot from an already low reward jumping puzzle chest just because I found a creative other way to get to the end using a glider or mount in the ones that don't already had that.

> @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

> So, this boils down to an uncomfortable fact.

>

> People like me, and the OP who *feel* the problems of elitism in raiding are confronting an issue, which OP was correct to say is psychological.

>

> *We want to be the elitists, and they already have thier click.*

>

> So, from our perspective it *feels* like every person they reject is them *"being elitist"*... And we say that like it's a bad thing. They way people use political party names as "insults" when said with enough condescending undertones.

>

> But you gotta look at the perspective of "the elitists".... They are good at this content. In the world they play in, they are common. But... so are noobs who are just flat bad. (and no judgements, I have been that noob and had a bad time because of that noob. I'm calling it like it is, not judging.) so after the 15th group that *should* have gone faster if the other 9 people you usually play with were on... It's easy to hate someone for fat fingering the wrong key. (too easy. No judgment.)

>

> So this is basically hazing. New people entering an existing group, and being checked to see if they pull thier weight.

>

> Psych 101.

>

> So, the suggestion of difficulty levels is a good one, because it cuts out the barrier to entry loop of '*you must be good at raids, to find a raid group.*' having a tiered system helps with this circular issue.

>

> I don't know about OP's suggestion of forced grouping. But a system for automated LFG could be great, so long as it's optional.

>

> I also understand the point of view of people upset by the OP's ideas. If they were put in place if would invalidate the experience of just dealing with the hostile meta, and learning to swim in those waters. So it's *offensive* to people that have already done it. (not saying it's right or wrong, just saying.)

>

>

> All in all though, there are things Anet can do to predict the behavior that's generated by the meta... And make new content that's intended to break those behavior patterns.

>

> Other posters have been right to say that it's a people problem. Anet can't fix the people. But they can predict behavior.

And the vetting process will still happen with the lower tier. It's called human nature. They will want someone who can pull their own weight and is willing to learn and communicate when things go wrong. So expect there to be training runs and groups who just want those who are experienced in the lower tier and groups who want a very specific group composition, etc, etc.

It will not solve the human problem. ANet can't solve it.

And every time they've tried to solve it by making general PvE harder, the masses come onto the forum and complain and get the content nerfed. I bet there are posts on Reddit about HoT maps when it first launched and go look at all the threads related to Eater of Souls. And that's the only way to solve the raid problem: figure out how to get the general player base to have a higher average skill level and mechanics knowledge level than they do now. And that's hard when players complain when they try to increase those aspects.

> @Namless.4028 said:

> > @Sylent.3165 said:

> > Creating a new char means unlocking a new elite spec and also leveling to 80.

> >

> > I agree with op. Each time a new elite comes out I'd like to do the content over again plus the story without having to make another new character

>

> or you just play the new content

Maybe they want to do content they already know so that they can learn the new elite without having to deal with learning new enemy/location mechanics at the same time.

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @FrostDraco.8306 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > I also elaborately explained what I meant in my OP and subsequent posts, and instead you focus on nitpicking minute details of the overal concept. Thats pretty much all you guys do, someone makes a point you get the jist of it and understand most of it or all of it, then you micro-analyze one tiny aspect to find a questionable discrepancy, then showcase minor discrepancy to invalidate the entire thread. Sorry thats lame and it doesn't work., and I see it over and over again.

> > >

> > > FACT: a huge number of skilled players are not able to connect with good raid groups or any raid groups for that matter, anet should look into it. That's it, no need to micro-analyze for cracks in that statement. It's all good.

> >

> > You can explain until you are blue in the face. It doesn't make you any less wrong, or more right. You keep saying micro-analyze. That's not even a word. It's a red herring you created to avoid the fact that your logic is inconsistent, your statements are grandiose, and downright full of entitlement. If i find something questionable, I'm going to point it out. And you ideally should care about that, because YOU are the one that said it.

> >

> > Anyone that says the word 'lame' in response to a statement shows how anti-intellectual they are. I don't care how 'lame' you feel something is. You came to US, we didn't come to you.

> >

> > > FACT: a huge number of skilled players are not able to connect with good raid groups or any raid groups for that matter, anet should look into it. That's it, no need to micro-analyze for cracks in that statement. It's all good.

> >

> > This isn't a fact. You haven't proven this, or cited a source. And there are no studies im aware of that even touch this information. CITATION NEEDED or gtfo. Conjecture is useless.

> >

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > OH ok well im one of the ones who cannot connect (so you found one), with decent raid groups. Ive also talked to a ton of other people in the same boat as me and they quit trying to raid or don't bother or raid in other games because of it. The raids are easy for me personally, the raids are very easy compared to other mmo's raids. Trying to get into a group of raiders that can actually clear any of the content is very hard compared to other mmo's. If you think none of this is a problem then ok... great.

> >

> > It's not a problem for me, or anyone else who gets runs done. It's a problem, your problem, the said person that can't connect with others. It's YOUR problem, so YOU fix it.

> >

> > I question anyone that sates something is easy but cant even find a pug to take them, of which half they time they arent even required to talk. Silent runs exist for a reason. And that still doesn't explain why you can't do your own run, with minimal socializing required. Why haven't you formed a group with those 'people'? Dubious statement at best.

> >

> > I have mental disorders, and BPD, yet im still able to get my kitten in a group every week to clear every wing, with literally no social issues. Why? Because i know what im doing, and i put in effort even when it's 'easy' because I'm not a chump. I would never let such a small issue stop me from raiding, and neither should anyone else. Make all the excuses you like, it won't get you into raids. And a new system wouldn't change much, as you'd probably get kicked anyway given your demeanor.

> >

>

> Right it's a me problem.. only a ton of people share the same problem, there are posts on the forums weekly about alternatives or improvements to grouping in raid. But it's all me. Again nitpicking and attacking instead of adding to the issue. We get it, you don't like my attitude and you think raiding is fine. Well I disagree, you can insult me all you like, it just makes you look silly. Like you I also know what I'm doing when it comes to raiding, and that's why I made this post.

>

> It's also very evident now that you are one of the haves rather then the have nots. As you say you clear the whole raid. So this isn't even a problem for you, you aren't even reflective of the demographic that does have the problem with joining raids. So why be so judgemental towards those who do have a problem. The reasons you got into a raid group is unique to you, and there are other people besides you with problems. You should instead reflect on how lucky you are that you have no problems raiding, and show empathy towards others who do.

Then if there are so many, why don't you PM them or make an LFG to form a group for raiding? If there are so many, it shouldn't matter if some of them are on the region you aren't (EU vs NA) or have a different schedule than you. You should be able to find 9 others to raid if there are really that many of you have trouble getting into raids otherwise.

Or are you unsure of their skill level based on what they said/claim?

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @Razor.6392 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > >so ill go to other mmo's that dont really require it. thanks.

> > Good luck finding a mmo where you don't need to communicate at all in raids / hardest pve content.

> >

> > >Too bad though despite my attitude im probably better than 99% of the playerbase skill wise.

> > Laughed at this due to how generic and stereotypical it sounded. Is there any way in which you can prove this?

>

> read my posts above

Nothing posted on these forums by you in this thread has proven that you have more skill than 99% of the player base. None of it's proven that you're worse than 99% of the player base either, so don't claim I'm saying you're horrible.

People have lied about their raid experience before. There's one guy who even came to the forums and admitted as such. Therefore, players can't fully trust the words of boastful players anymore. It's a leap of faith. And not everyone wants to take that leap of faith. Not when it can affect the fun of 8 other people if you exclude yourself and the commander.

> @Thessassin.5376 said:

> these posts are always the same. raiders are too elitist, raids are too hard, if i dont have LI how will i join a group?

>

> the answer is always so simple, make your own group. 10% of gw2 players raid while 90% wish they could but the 10% stop them? really? nobody can stop you from making your own non elitist, non meta group. go make a squad and post it on lfg this second.

>

> that won't happen, the people complaining about elitism don't want to learn to raid, they want the elitist players to carry them through the raids.

And there are raiding groups designed to carry others. You just have to be willing to part with gold in order to do so.

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @Seera.5916 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @Seera.5916 said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > @zombyturtle.5980 said:

> > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > @zombyturtle.5980 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @zombyturtle.5980 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks for being an example of the mindset of the average raider and what they think of new players trying to join there raid, this has showcased the problem quite nicely.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > This "problem" of yours has a very easy solution. New players join training runs and shouldn't expect to be taken otherwise. Or join a guild/static, you might make some friends in the process.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > sorry not joining a training raid, not going to lower myself to that ( i tried 1-2 of them and it was ridiculous so no more), i just assume not do the raids even though im grossly over competent and qualified to do them. Anet needs to do something to facilitate grouping and reduce player scrutinization, this feels like trying to do raid content in 2001 where there are no options for grouping or difficulty alternatives, there is a reason all modern mmos have abandoned this outdated model of raiding except for gw2 it seems.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You are the most elitist person ive seen in a long time. Maybe fix your own attitude before asking anet to change the game.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > oh so my attitude will make me better at raids? How? Im a good player regardless of how I behave. OHHH so your saying that part of raiding is the psychological mind convincing game that anet needs to address? - in fact its 99% of raiding, no personal skill required because you cant even raid w/out it, you just be nice or behave a certain way and its smooth sailing (even being nice doesn't help either 99% of the time to get me in a raid group - tried it. I tried being nice or not talking and neither of those work). Wow they should advertise that being nice is the key to winning at raids, And here i thought raiding was hard content, but apparently player skill doesn't come into play only behaving in a certain way.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Nah. You never answer what you are going to do when anet hypothetically 'fixes' raids so that they arent exclusionary and you are forced to group with players with bad builds and 0 experience non stop. You will basically be doing a training run every single time. Since you refuse to 'lower yourself' to that now and are far too skilled for it, you better fix your attitude fast and get used to carrying noobs or fail runs. Your own personal elitism isnt going to work in your new raid style.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I never said i knew what the solution was, your pointing out one solution I suggested and taking it to some finality. They might need to put in multiple solutions, like lowered raid difficult, auto grouping and removing boss timers. All I know now is that I'm not doing raids as they are and it's not because of the raids are too hard or the content isn't for me.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Player skill should always trump social interactions especially when rewards are based on player skills and not on some social interactions or behaving in a certain way.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Franky I would prefer raiding and not talking at all.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Even if they implemented all 3 solutions, you would still be forced to group with noobs and have training runs for every run. Remove the ability to be elitist, be forced to play with the rest of the bad and inexperienced players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I didnt focus on any particular solution, just your suggestion to stop or reduce elitism. So please answer what you will do when you are grouped with 9 other players in PTV gear with condi weapons who have never stepped into a raid before.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well if there was no boss timer, it autogrouped me in with 9 noobs and the bosses were easier, I'd say we would def win eventually. If not I could easily auto join another group and outshine all the rest with a couple of simple clicks. People recruiting for harder raids or helping there friends who have hard core raid groups would notice me.

> > > > >

> > > > > No talking or elitism necessary.

> > > >

> > > > And people would still do the exact same thing today because they don't want to take 3 times as long to do the boss due to low DPS or wipes. ANet can not fix elitism. There will ALWAYS be a group that wants to do the content as fast as possible. Sometimes PUGs are able to do this. See most of the core world bosses - except Triple Trouble and Teq. Dungeons had it, Fractals had it, Raids have it. Map-wide meta events have it. It's just in open world, the elitists get blocked in map chat if they don't storm off due to not being able to control others.

> > >

> > > They could do a lot to reduce it.

> >

> > They can't do anything to reduce it. Because ANet can't change the personality types of players. Short of making raids open world and not instanced where the elites don't have any power, there's nothing they can do about the effects bad elitism has on the game. And open world raids already exist. They're called map metas and world bosses and temple events. And everyone already knows the problems associated with those.

> >

> > However, there is something YOU can do about the effects and how they affect you:

> >

> > 1. Take a deep breath, gain some patience, and do some training runs. Yes, you don't want to do training runs, but it is one way of getting to where you want to be.

> > 2. Make your own groups that has rules to fit what you want out of the raid.

>

> No I just assume not raid, and from the looks of it many others are in the same position as I am, until anet add's some supportive features for raiding i just assume raid in another mmo that does.

>

> Pretty hilarious is that the advice for a veteran highly skilled gamer is to, live with it, join some sort of raid thats on training wheels, adapt my behavior and pretend to be having tons of fun when im not and sit there and lose 100 raid attempts (or even better not get invited into any despite my skill level) due to others until i finally get what i want... No Thanks, especially when there are alternatives to this system already implemented in other mmo's.

>

> You would have a very valid point if every other mmo had no quality of life, alternative features to raiding, but they do, they have a plethora of them, and gw2 implements none of them, sorry im going to compare gw2 to these mmo's and suggest that they implement something to make it easier, and others will probably keep complaining about it as well.

>

> In addition your suggestions are just bandages that the community has come up with to address the difficult entry barrier into raiding. If they even had any options for raiding you wouldn't need training raids and I wouldn't need to form my own guild or raid groups to do this content.

Could ANet do things to make raiding more accessible to more players? Yes. But elitism isn't one of those things that they can fix.

Just remember that any time ANet tries to make open world harder or personal story harder. And we've seen evidence that the masses revolt in numbers if you make either of those harder.

So given the current situation that ANet is in: they can't make raiding more accessible because if they even think about making things harder, players ask for nerfs to the content and they can't get rid of elitism; you're only options are to deal with it and do training runs, deal with it and form your own groups, or sit and not raid because other players don't take peoples' words anymore due to liars. The one you've apparently chosen, gets you nowhere towards your goal.

Which means 1 of 2 things:

1. You don't want to be raiding with the elites that much.

2. You expect everyone to bend to your desires and hate when you have to actually work towards anything.

They could add on 3 more tiers. Or have a second one be open that unlocks after you finish it the first time. Like the crafting ones with the 0-400 and then the 400-500 levels.

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @Seera.5916 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @zombyturtle.5980 said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > @zombyturtle.5980 said:

> > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > @zombyturtle.5980 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > thanks for being an example of the mindset of the average raider and what they think of new players trying to join there raid, this has showcased the problem quite nicely.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This "problem" of yours has a very easy solution. New players join training runs and shouldn't expect to be taken otherwise. Or join a guild/static, you might make some friends in the process.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > sorry not joining a training raid, not going to lower myself to that ( i tried 1-2 of them and it was ridiculous so no more), i just assume not do the raids even though im grossly over competent and qualified to do them. Anet needs to do something to facilitate grouping and reduce player scrutinization, this feels like trying to do raid content in 2001 where there are no options for grouping or difficulty alternatives, there is a reason all modern mmos have abandoned this outdated model of raiding except for gw2 it seems.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You are the most elitist person ive seen in a long time. Maybe fix your own attitude before asking anet to change the game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > oh so my attitude will make me better at raids? How? Im a good player regardless of how I behave. OHHH so your saying that part of raiding is the psychological mind convincing game that anet needs to address? - in fact its 99% of raiding, no personal skill required because you cant even raid w/out it, you just be nice or behave a certain way and its smooth sailing (even being nice doesn't help either 99% of the time to get me in a raid group - tried it. I tried being nice or not talking and neither of those work). Wow they should advertise that being nice is the key to winning at raids, And here i thought raiding was hard content, but apparently player skill doesn't come into play only behaving in a certain way.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nah. You never answer what you are going to do when anet hypothetically 'fixes' raids so that they arent exclusionary and you are forced to group with players with bad builds and 0 experience non stop. You will basically be doing a training run every single time. Since you refuse to 'lower yourself' to that now and are far too skilled for it, you better fix your attitude fast and get used to carrying noobs or fail runs. Your own personal elitism isnt going to work in your new raid style.

> > > > >

> > > > > I never said i knew what the solution was, your pointing out one solution I suggested and taking it to some finality. They might need to put in multiple solutions, like lowered raid difficult, auto grouping and removing boss timers. All I know now is that I'm not doing raids as they are and it's not because of the raids are too hard or the content isn't for me.

> > > > >

> > > > > Player skill should always trump social interactions especially when rewards are based on player skills and not on some social interactions or behaving in a certain way.

> > > > >

> > > > > Franky I would prefer raiding and not talking at all.

> > > >

> > > > Even if they implemented all 3 solutions, you would still be forced to group with noobs and have training runs for every run. Remove the ability to be elitist, be forced to play with the rest of the bad and inexperienced players.

> > > >

> > > > I didnt focus on any particular solution, just your suggestion to stop or reduce elitism. So please answer what you will do when you are grouped with 9 other players in PTV gear with condi weapons who have never stepped into a raid before.

> > >

> > > Well if there was no boss timer, it autogrouped me in with 9 noobs and the bosses were easier, I'd say we would def win eventually. If not I could easily auto join another group and outshine all the rest with a couple of simple clicks. People recruiting for harder raids or helping there friends who have hard core raid groups would notice me.

> > >

> > > No talking or elitism necessary.

> >

> > And people would still do the exact same thing today because they don't want to take 3 times as long to do the boss due to low DPS or wipes. ANet can not fix elitism. There will ALWAYS be a group that wants to do the content as fast as possible. Sometimes PUGs are able to do this. See most of the core world bosses - except Triple Trouble and Teq. Dungeons had it, Fractals had it, Raids have it. Map-wide meta events have it. It's just in open world, the elitists get blocked in map chat if they don't storm off due to not being able to control others.

>

> They could do a lot to reduce it.

They can't do anything to reduce it. Because ANet can't change the personality types of players. Short of making raids open world and not instanced where the elites don't have any power, there's nothing they can do about the effects bad elitism has on the game. And open world raids already exist. They're called map metas and world bosses and temple events. And everyone already knows the problems associated with those.

However, there is something YOU can do about the effects and how they affect you:

1. Take a deep breath, gain some patience, and do some training runs. Yes, you don't want to do training runs, but it is one way of getting to where you want to be.

2. Make your own groups that has rules to fit what you want out of the raid.

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @zombyturtle.5980 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @zombyturtle.5980 said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > @zombyturtle.5980 said:

> > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > > > > > thanks for being an example of the mindset of the average raider and what they think of new players trying to join there raid, this has showcased the problem quite nicely.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This "problem" of yours has a very easy solution. New players join training runs and shouldn't expect to be taken otherwise. Or join a guild/static, you might make some friends in the process.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > sorry not joining a training raid, not going to lower myself to that ( i tried 1-2 of them and it was ridiculous so no more), i just assume not do the raids even though im grossly over competent and qualified to do them. Anet needs to do something to facilitate grouping and reduce player scrutinization, this feels like trying to do raid content in 2001 where there are no options for grouping or difficulty alternatives, there is a reason all modern mmos have abandoned this outdated model of raiding except for gw2 it seems.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You are the most elitist person ive seen in a long time. Maybe fix your own attitude before asking anet to change the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > oh so my attitude will make me better at raids? How? Im a good player regardless of how I behave. OHHH so your saying that part of raiding is the psychological mind convincing game that anet needs to address? - in fact its 99% of raiding, no personal skill required because you cant even raid w/out it, you just be nice or behave a certain way and its smooth sailing (even being nice doesn't help either 99% of the time to get me in a raid group - tried it. I tried being nice or not talking and neither of those work). Wow they should advertise that being nice is the key to winning at raids, And here i thought raiding was hard content, but apparently player skill doesn't come into play only behaving in a certain way.

> > > >

> > > > Nah. You never answer what you are going to do when anet hypothetically 'fixes' raids so that they arent exclusionary and you are forced to group with players with bad builds and 0 experience non stop. You will basically be doing a training run every single time. Since you refuse to 'lower yourself' to that now and are far too skilled for it, you better fix your attitude fast and get used to carrying noobs or fail runs. Your own personal elitism isnt going to work in your new raid style.

> > >

> > > I never said i knew what the solution was, your pointing out one solution I suggested and taking it to some finality. They might need to put in multiple solutions, like lowered raid difficult, auto grouping and removing boss timers. All I know now is that I'm not doing raids as they are and it's not because of the raids are too hard or the content isn't for me.

> > >

> > > Player skill should always trump social interactions especially when rewards are based on player skills and not on some social interactions or behaving in a certain way.

> > >

> > > Franky I would prefer raiding and not talking at all.

> >

> > Even if they implemented all 3 solutions, you would still be forced to group with noobs and have training runs for every run. Remove the ability to be elitist, be forced to play with the rest of the bad and inexperienced players.

> >

> > I didnt focus on any particular solution, just your suggestion to stop or reduce elitism. So please answer what you will do when you are grouped with 9 other players in PTV gear with condi weapons who have never stepped into a raid before.

>

> Well if there was no boss timer, it autogrouped me in with 9 noobs and the bosses were easier, I'd say we would def win eventually. If not I could easily auto join another group and outshine all the rest with a couple of simple clicks. People recruiting for harder raids or helping there friends who have hard core raid groups would notice me.

>

> No talking or elitism necessary.

And people would still do the exact same thing today because they don't want to take 3 times as long to do the boss due to low DPS or wipes. ANet can not fix elitism. There will ALWAYS be a group that wants to do the content as fast as possible. Sometimes PUGs are able to do this. See most of the core world bosses - except Triple Trouble and Teq. Dungeons had it, Fractals had it, Raids have it. Map-wide meta events have it. It's just in open world, the elitists get blocked in map chat if they don't storm off due to not being able to control others.

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @Shirlias.8104 said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > Sorry you don't get in rank 7 in NA guild in wow if ur trash, u also don't get 2X legend in spvp if ur trash, and yet raiders are still skeptical about skill with feats I can easily prove but claim on some technicality that I might not be considered good in some universe, somewhere, this is exactly my point and the point of this thread.

> > > >

> > > > Well, wow PvE is mostly tryhard ( a matter or time mostly, though ofc like every other game you have to be efficient with your class ) since the top guilds do many attempts.

> > > >

> > > > GW2 legend is more like a joke due to the playerbase pool ( play the right class and spam games. Also previously with duoq was even easier ).

> > > > Don't even mention the stronghold season.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I have Undefeated/Eternal title from Vale.. If i was carried I would of been one shotted and not gotten the title, but I didnt die and have the title, Or does that skill not translate either because its not ALL the raids in gw2.. Nothing convinces you guys... This is why people are complaining and need the raids to change, if someone who is skilled like me can have such a hard time, imagine how others who aren't as skill must fair

> >

> > You got a title, and 1 achievement.

> > So?

> > Guess how many ppl managed to have that one?

> >

> > I don't get your point at all.

> > I mean... no, really i don't know.

> >

> > However, I was refering to what you said about wow and legend spvp, and explain ed how it works ( you can check wow now and see for every boss how many try the guild needed, and for spvp...Let us forget about that part ).

>

> see no convincing you guys, its impossible - can't get into a raid because I must be lying, can't get into a raid because im arrogant, can't get into a raid to even show people I am good because of the above two problems. You think maybe it might be because of the level of scrutinization that is required to raid, and that anet should do something to reduce it? Since so many others have been complaining about this and not just me? Or is this just all me is the problem and raiding is 100% fine and nobody in gw2 has a problem with it.

No one is saying you're lying about your skill level or how you learn. It's just too many others DO lie about their skill level and how they learn, so it ruins it for those who don't lie about things. So the players who don't want to risk any failures, but still have to PUG, do require proof that you have skill at the particular raid wing they are trying to do.

I don't know if you frequented the dungeon forum on the old forums, but there was a person in there who outright admitted that he would LIE about his LI and generate fake chat links to "prove" he had the proper LI. Of course, this was quickly spread among the raiding masses and he came crying to forums saying people would kick him immediately even though they've never raided before. It's those type of people who have ruined for those who are honest about their skill and how they learn.

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > Sorry you don't get in rank 7 in NA guild in wow if ur trash, u also don't get 2X legend in spvp if ur trash, and yet raiders are still skeptical about skill with feats I can easily prove but claim on some technicality that I might not be considered good in some universe, somewhere, this is exactly my point and the point of this thread.

> > >

> >

> > I don't know how many times I have to repeat it, being rank 7 in WoW and getting 2x legend in pvp proves absolutely nothing about your skill in Raids. I even gave you, more than once, the example of fractal 100 and fractal 100 CM, which is the EXACT same instance, only with different/altered mechanics. Yet you cannot prove how good you are in Fractal 100 CM, no matter how many times you finish Fractal 100. It means absolutely nothing.

> >

> > If such similar content means nothing, then it's obvious that being good in other games also means nothing. And there is nothing for Anet to do here.

>

> What about my Eternal title from vale, that doesn't count either? still not good? Doesn't translate to skill... - carried? This is beyond absurd at this point, and showcases that anet has a real problem on there hands, this is what every raider faces right here in joining a raid...

>

> they need to make raids easier or facilitate group entry in some way to make it so people do not feel the need to scrutinize players so much to the point of absurdity.

It shows that you have skill with that raid and that given training in the other raid wings, you'll be a good raider in more than just that one wing.

Some groups do not have the time to risk having to train someone who needs it explained in detail or has to see it actually happen to them when they raid. Unfortunately, no amount of AP, titles, DPS, gear, etc will let them know how you learn. There is nothing that can show others that you can learn things 100% by just watching YouTube videos. Most people can't. The YouTube videos will also not let you know what to do when something goes wrong. Training raids help with that. Because you're more likely to have something fail.

It is not elitist for raiding groups to demand that players show proof of having done a specific raid. It is however, elitist to demand that they let you into the group because you're one of the very very few who can learn a raid solely from watching YouTube videos.

> @Loosmaster.8263 said:

> > @JackDaniels.1697 said:

> > Anet should really take a look at the core world bosses and revamp them a little (except TT, Tequatle and the Shatterer). I'm not asking them to make them harder, although you might want to toughen them up a little, but make them challenging with some mechanics. And I understand that this is old content, but this old content is still part of the game that players still go to daily, so why not revitalize them and make them fun again, which they only have to revamp one time and that's it! I mean, they're revamping all the old fractals, so why not this?!

> >

> > Come on Anet!

> > #oldcontentstillmatters

>

> I would love to see them rework the Shaman in Wayfairers Foothills with a massive PBAOE that one shots everybody in range. He has one now but it's mostly a knock back. Also make him more mobile.

If they do up the challenge on World Bosses, they shouldn't do anything too drastic with the ones in the starter zones. These are the ones new players are at. If they are too challenging, they could turn many new players off.

And not any more challenging with shaman unless they can do something about the visual clutter during that one. Wouldn't be able to see any red rings or telegraphed big hits as it currently stands.

> @Waterboy.8716 said:

> The TP needs to be modified! It should not allow bids that yield the seller less than the vendor value, as it does now. When you open a trade at the TP, you often get a notice that "The Minimum unit price is XX." However, the TP allows bids below the Minimum unit price, why?? I also believe that the unit price should yield more than one (1) copper above the vendor value. It should allow a profit of at least 10%, and no bids should be allowed below that price point. This would help the seller, and Arena as well.

The TP doesn't let you sell or buy below vendor price nowadays.

When the TP first launched, players could sell and buy things for under vendor price. This was changed pretty quickly, but ANet didn't immediately purge those orders. They've purged a good number of them, however.

I don't have a problem with allowing players to sell at vendor price once all fees are removed (which is what the TP currently does).

> @"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:

> > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > The matter has been escalated to a senior CS agent, and they'll review both the records and the response given to this person. There is no reason whatsoever to be concerned. TP issues are still reviewed, are still resolved, every day!

> >

> > This is a matter impacting a single person, and as in any such situation, there are a lot more details than what appear in this post. Let's let the CS Team continue their research and not see this single situation as an indicator of issues that have broader impact.

> >

> > EDIT to add: And **this** is why we ask that player who have questions or concerns not try to use the forums to discuss or appeal customer support matters. It's only through tickets that someone will be assisted because that's where we can get the info we need to help. Using the forums to try to expedite an answer, to ask for help, or to complain about a situation, is entirely pointless. Doing so can cause other players to develop unnecessary concerns, as is the situation here. **If you have questions about your CS ticket, please discuss with CS.**

>

> i would if i could click the SIGN IN portion of your website without it saying "dns cannot connect PROBE"... but i can freely roam the rest of the site.

You can also reply to the last email you got from Support. You do not have to log into the site at all.

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > JL -- I can't tell if you're posting this seriously or having a little joke. (If I had to take a wager, I'd call the latter, honestly.)

> >

> > Can you maybe give us a little insight on what motivated your post? 'Cause right now, I'm looking at this with question marks in the sky. :dizzy:

>

> It just seems like we can buy so many things in the gemstore, im not sure why not this. The rewards you get from wxp are comparable to the rewards from raiding, and you're allowed to buy raid runs to get all the achieves and legendary armor by buying them from other players.

>

> A lot of the masteries enhance wvw gameplay, this is similar to unlocking all the waypoints in pve which you can already do in the gemstore. So i figured why not have it help you unlock the wvw masteries or help you to get the rewards you want faster. (similar to unlocking pve waypoints).

>

> in addition we can already buy heroic boosters which if you play wvw with them on, is essentially granting free levels and we can already purchase them on the gemstore so why not levels outright?

>

> we are also able to purchase lvl 80 boosts in pve, which is essentially the same thing as this. Lots of other mmos offer similar things which grant free levels or quests to be completed by paying in the online store.

Buying raids is paying someone else to run the raid for you while you do no help at all. Buying WxP with gems does not pay someone else in game the ability to earn your WxP for you.

WvW masteries are not like waypoints. WvW masteries show that a player has put forth some combination of time playing and effort to learn WvW. Waypoints do not show any kind of mastery of open world PvE. It takes no time at all to run around and unlock them all and it doesn't take any skill to do so.

Heroic boosters increase the rate at which you earn WxP, doesn't make it go away. Your idea makes it go away.

I personally think the level 80 boosters should be items purchased in game in Level 80 areas. That way a player has to level up at least one character to level 80 before they use it or be really skilled enough to run a level 2 player to that area. Just because they offer one bad way for new players to bypass learning a game mode, doesn't mean I should be for another one being added.

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > Yes, but what you describe there is *character* progression, and I think it's reasonable that level 80 content should be scaled for level 80 characters, but if you're going to require a certain level of *human skill growth* fro a player then you need to do a better job of training those skills than to simply fail players who don't acquire them. Nintendo games have historically done an exceptional job at this, designing content to encourage gradual skill progression and to clue players in to their full range of options, rather than just chucking them into the fire pit and seeing what they do about it.

> >

> >

> > Gonna need a real example of this. I've yet to see a mechanic not explain in any story content so prove it.

>

> . . .

>

> I'm not really sure what the answer you're looking for would even look like, you're asking me to prove a negative, "point to where there is a lack of something." Well I mean the best I could ever possibly do there is to say "everywhere," I suppose. I'll ask you the opposite question, where in this game's content does it explain to the player how and when to use:

>

> Evade (this one I'll give you, there's a mission for it in all starting zones)

> Stun Breakers

> Condi Cleanse

> Interrupts

> Combo Fields (and their potential common interactions)

> Breakbars

>

> Also, it's fair to factor into your answers that some players will play PoF without owning HoT, so any examples within HoT content is only half a solution.

>

> I do think that "Q" abilities were fairly well explained during season 3, but I actually don't recall them ever being explained in PoF, but they may have been.

Funny, while I was never explicitly taught about these or even read the tooltips for these, I didn't find any of the story missions too difficult based on a mechanics aspect once I got better at my elementalist (my first character was an elementalist, and most of my troubles happened right on top of the game's launch). I've found some parts to be too difficult for me and where I am with learning, but nothing due to mechanics not having been taught to me. It's all because I make bad mistakes on bosses that take me and my build too long to defeat.

You will need to buy both PoF and HoT.

> @MarkoNS.3261 said:

> > @Chickenooble.5014 said:

> > > @MarkoNS.3261 said:

> > > well it was just an initial idea, anet could ofc refine it an put in restrictions on it.

> > I sure hope you never find yourself in a professional environment because that's certainly not how it works. If one of my developers came to me and said, "I got this great idea" but 1) didn't solve an issue that didn't exist, and 2) told me to figure out the details of their great idea, I'd tell them to go pound sand. Why should ArenaNet or anyone else around here care about your idea when you didn't care enough to give it some thought? You had this idea and thought it was worthy of a poll but didn't give it much thought as to what it's trying to solve, how it could be implemented, what reasonable rewards would be, and how it would be exploited.

>

> well buddy i had an initial idea as i said its not my job to refine it as and here is a shocker i am not anet employe. oh and if you want you can go pound sand all you want or lick carpet or whatever you want to do really.

And any dev is going to see that most players are posting and/or voting that no we don't want this and they therefore won't spend the time to develop the idea. Because there are a multitude of other things that many players do want (build templates, more dungeons, more legendary weapons, more legendary armor, more armor in general, more mounts available as in game rewards, more variety in armor skins (ie: less trenchcoats), more races, etc), why should ANet put effort into an idea that it appears that many people do not want?

So if you want the idea to be put in place in the game, you should probably try to start convincing those of us who voted no that it would be beneficial to the game.

I'm a mediocre casual player. I run glass cannon elementalist/weaver JUST for the fact that it means that some instances will be hard. Because you learn more from failure than you do from success. You stop and try to figure out what you did wrong when you fail. How often does anyone stop and think how they succeeded if they did it on the first try?

As for the don't want to change build discussion:

Even single player RPG's have instances that are hard or next to impossible to do if you've got the wrong build. And you have to make adjustments to your usual playstyle to get through it. Change weapons, use more boosts, use cheap tactics, etc.

Who knows, the build you adjust to for the difficult fight might end up being one you enjoy more than your current one. And there's no rule that says you can't go right back to your original build after the fight.

> @SeamusTse.9087 said:

> > @Seera.5916 said:

> > Your friend can update his/her ticket to ask for an update. Posting on the forums does not speed up the process of getting tickets answered as they are answered in order of submission.

>

> My friend has already in update his ticket ...so that why need to asking help in there. But the problem is keep in pending for them reply and no respond yet

The issue may be more complicated than you and your friend realize. Especially if it's related to account security. They have to ensure the person submitting the ticket is the rightful owner of the account.

Your friend can update his/her ticket to ask for an update. Posting on the forums does not speed up the process of getting tickets answered as they are answered in order of submission.

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> Since the only names that become available are chars that are deleted/renamed you could always ingame email them and ask to be notified if they ever are going to delete/rename their char. You might offer them some gold if they do so and you get the name.

If it was for a character I was going to delete or rename anyway in the near future, then I'd do it for free. If the person wants a name so bad, they'd mail a stranger about it, then I'd rather they get it over someone else.

But, if I wasn't, I'd ask how much are they willing to pay me in gold for it. The amount in gold would have to meet and/or exceed the amount for a name change contract. Some names would be higher if I really like the name. Like my main's name: Chymea. I'd have to be paid a lot to give that up.