Seera.5916
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Posts posted by Seera.5916
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> @Swagger.1459 said:
> > @TexZero.7910 said:
> > > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:
> > > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:
> > > > If it’s open world then it better be a time-gated grindfest so that people have to put in a tremendous amount of effort towards it.
> > >
> > > Yes, because heaven forbid that people should be able to have FUN in games, right?
> >
> > Because heaven forbid a luxury and prestige item retain those via hard work and dedication, right ?
> >
> > Also isn't the fun you had along the way making it part of the fun you had in games ?
>
> I’m going to comment on this because you keep equating other potential paths, in other modes, as easy... Nobody is asking for easy, or devoid of “hard work and dedication”, that’s an assumption on your part and a huge flaw in your argument.
>
> The request was having additional paths to legendary gear... and most of us know the dev team would still be using similar time frames of effort to earn each piece of gear and the same material requirements.
>
> Is this understandable to you?
That's the thing, Ohoni is asking for open world and there is nothing currently in game that requires hard work or dedication about being successful in open world PvE that's measurable and wouldn't cause more problems than it solves (if you measure how many successful DS metas someone runs then everyone and their mother will want to be a commander of that and then watch the map chat become toxic as multiple commanders all try to command at the same time...). And every time ANet tries to put in harder things, the community asks for it to be nerfed and ANet obliges. Open world PvE is easy compared to raids, PvP and the PvP aspects of WvW.
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> @Ohoni.6057 said:
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> > Raiding is PvE no matter how much you try to argue that it isn't. So stop treating as if it's not. Because it is. And the raiding portion is not hundreds of hours. Because your argument is centered around who don't like raiding. So just argue that part of the armor that is tied to raids, not all of it. Because I bet I can get all but the things that require raid currency without stepping one foot into a raid.
>
> How? Where are you farming LI?
>
> >You can't compare something that's allowed in the games rules (buying raids and being carried through raids) to things that are against the rules (no AFK bot farming and no being AFK in PvP). It invalidates your argument.
>
> Uh. . . huh. . .
>
> >It doesn't invalidate my argument to say that people can earn the rewards through buying raids and being carried through them. It would take dedication to earn the gold required to buy enough raids (or to buy the gems to convert to gold) and dedication to some friends and/or guild members to be carried through enough times.
>
> Uh. . . nooope. Sorry, I can't even pretend that you're making sense on this one. It's like that Wallstreet "Greed is good" speech.
Read what I said next time.
I said I can get everything BUT what requires raid currency without stepping foot into a raid.
Please go look at the Wiki for legendary armor to see what it actually requires before saying that it takes hundreds of hours of raiding.
I could argue that you're also saying that greed is good. You want all the skins. And you want them so badly for as little cost as possible (cost being anything you wouldn't otherwise normally do - in this case play any part of the game you don't want), that you're wanting to destroy the game to do so. And I do honestly believe that what you want would destroy the game. Because then where's the item that you can easily show other players that "I play X mode" or "I'm so dedicated to this game that I was willing to spend $25 plus on a single skin". Armor skins can be mixed or matched so the player that plays all modes can mix and match the armors and mini's. You can't mix and match titles and have more than one show at once. And most players want something they can show off. Even if they claim they don't.
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> @Ohoni.6057 said:
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> >I really highly doubt it's hundreds of hours of raiding to get the PvE legendary armor skins. So how about you stop with the hyperboles. They hurt your argument because it doesn't represent the real numbers.
>
> It's zero hours of raiding to get the PvE legendary skins, since there aren't any and you wouldn't have to raid for them if there were, but to get the *raiding* skins, yeah, multiple hundreds of hours seems reasonable to get all the required ingredients, especially if you're actually doing it yourself and not being carried. If any raider wants to dispute that with a reasonable claim that they spent a lot less time than that, my ears are open. In either case, can we agree that if someone REALLY dislikes raiding, that they would likely classify the existing amount as "more than I would prefer?"
>
> > And you seem to have missed that there are ways they can through the raiding without actually participating in the raid: buying raids and being carried through them.
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> No. Getting carried in any way is not actually participating. It's like saying that AFK bot farming is a legitimate way to earn something, or that playing PvP but basically staying AFK in base while the rest of the team wins the match is a legitimate way of earning The Ascension.
>
> >That's obviously more on the side of dedication than skill at the game (but it does show skill at knowing their limitations and how much they can tolerate trying to do things beyond their limations).
>
> It has nothing to do with dedication either. By supporting such methods you delegitimize ANY arguments you might make about Legendary items actually being an "earned" result. At that point there is absolutely no highground between your position and having them being common drops off moas in Queensdale.
Raiding is PvE no matter how much you try to argue that it isn't. So stop treating as if it's not. Because it is. And the raiding portion is not hundreds of hours. Because your argument is centered around who don't like raiding. So just argue that part of the armor that is tied to raids, not all of it. Because I bet I can get all but the things that require raid currency without stepping one foot into a raid.
You can't compare something that's allowed in the games rules (buying raids and being carried through raids) to things that are against the rules (no AFK bot farming and no being AFK in PvP). It invalidates your argument.
It doesn't invalidate my argument to say that people can earn the rewards through buying raids and being carried through them. It would take dedication to earn the gold required to buy enough raids (or to buy the gems to convert to gold) and dedication to some friends and/or guild members to be carried through enough times.
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> @Ohoni.6057 said:
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> >The players that don't want to raid but want those skins to me don't really want those skins all that much.
>
> They don't want them *enough* to spend hundreds of hours doing content that they do not enjoy, and **nobody should be asking them to.**
>
> There is no benefit to them being there, for anyone.
>
> So the question is, how to get them what they want (the skins), *without* asking them do engage in content that they do not enjoy and that will benefit no one.
>
> You answer seems to be "i do not care about those players," but ANet should, because they are paying customers to their game.
>
> >And this is who it primarily benefits: ANet. It gets players to try content they might not otherwise try.
>
> No.
>
> That needs to stop.
>
> People need to stop EVER saying that, because it's NEVER been true.
>
> Would it get people to "try content they might not otherwise try?" Maybe, but is it the ONLY way to accomplish that? Or even the *best* way to accomplish that? **NO,** it *never* has been.
>
> You don't lock a reward behind hundreds of hours of gameplay to get people to *try* content that they might actually enjoy. If they don't think they'll enjoy it, then they just won't bother even trying, since they know they'll never spend those hundreds of hours to actually get it. Or even worse, they do try, and they *do* hate it, and spend hundreds of hours there anyways, hating every second of it, and accomplishing at best a Pyrrhic victory when they get that thing they wanted.
>
> If you want players to "try content they might not otherwise try," then you don't reward them for spending hundreds of hours doing it, you reward them for spending like TWO hours doing it, maybe less. You reward them for getting in there, giving it an honest try, and then allowing them to decide for themselves whether they *enjoyed* the time they spent on it. You make the raids the *most efficient* way to fully unlock the Envoy armor, so that if they did enjoy their experience then they would have every reason to stick around and finish out the experience, but you do offer alternatives, so if they definitely didn't enjoy their time there, they can do something else instead without abandoning the goal entirely.
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> >ANet's job is to get players to play longer.
>
> And you accomplish that by rewarding them for doing the things *they* enjoy doing, not the things *you* think they *should* be doing. If you drive them away from the activities they want to do, then it only leads to them beccoming disgruntled and burnt out. This is especially an issue in a F2P game, where the goal is not *just* to "keep them playing,* as it would be in a sub game where it doesn't matter what they think so long as they don't cancel their sub, but this is a game that relies on the kindness of strangers, you want players to not only be playing, but also be *happy* enough that they *want* to support the game via purely optional microtransactions.
>
> >If you know of a successful MMO that has all skins available in all modes, you should probably show it as an example to prove to ANet that that practice is a viable one to get players to keep playing the game for long periods of time.
>
> GW2 has a pretty unique business model going on, not to mention wardrobe system. I don't know that I can find an example of a game like you describe that has been successful, but I can't think of one like it that's failed either, so that indicates nothing.
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> >There is nothing you can say that will get me to change my mind on exclusive skins.
>
> Ok.
>
> >And this is someone who doesn't like WvW but has decided she wants to make another legendary and will have to play WvW to get another Gift of Battle. And I'm perfectly fine with having to gut through WvW enough to get the Gift of Battle.
>
> Ok, but you understand that gutting through WvW for a Gift of Battle is something much simpler than gutting through raids for Envoy armor, right? It's not exactly a 1:1 comparison there.
>
> >And I'm going for a generation 1 legendary which I could bypass it all together to get it off of the TP. But I don't fee like they should have ever been sell-able in the first place, so I'm not going to buy it off of the trading post.
>
> And that's your choice, but at least the *option* is available to those who would choose differently than you, and options are good.
I really highly doubt it's hundreds of hours of raiding to get the PvE legendary armor skins. So how about you stop with the hyperboles. They hurt your argument because it doesn't represent the real numbers.
And you seem to have missed that there are ways they can through the raiding without actually participating in the raid: buying raids and being carried through them. That's obviously more on the side of dedication than skill at the game (but it does show skill at knowing their limitations and how much they can tolerate trying to do things beyond their limations).
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> @Ohoni.6057 said:
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> > Those rewards can indeed be skins. They're the only things that every player can easily see (minis are in a way skins). And yes, there should be a mixture of exclusive items: titles, jewelry, aura's, skins, ascended gear, legendary gear, etc.
>
> Again though, if they are skins, then you end up with situations where people want those skins, but don't want to do the content attached, and who benefits from that? That's not a rhetorical question, btw, seriously, *who would benefit?*
>
> It's better that if you have three groups, " A. people who care about prestige," "B. people who care about having a specific skin," and "C. people who want both," can ALL be made happy, by the A and C people getting some signifier of prestige, **and** B and C people getting the skins they want.
>
> >You can't have it both ways, Ohoni. You can't claim that things can't be locked due to "I don't like X" and then go things can be locked to specific maps even if people don't like those maps.
>
> Again, my solution would be to not "lock" them, but to disincentive them. Make is so that if you *insist* on farming for something on a specific map, you can, but it will be a brutally inefficient process, to the point that nobody *just* "trying to be lazy" would ever bother with it.
>
> >To me the rational place to stop is right where they are at right now based on how each mode is set up. It's completely rational to lock skins behind certain modes.
>
> How does your system serve players who want the raid skin, but have no interest in raiding? Explain how they are meant to get a happy ending in the current situation? By most accounts, there are more such players than there are people who raid.
>
> >Until they put in some way to measure skill and dedication (like a reward track, but not necessarily a reward track), then any legendary armor or weapon skin that is solely obtainable through open world PvE, should be functionality only - no special auras or effects.
>
> I'm all in favor of them adding a PvE reward track, but that in no way indicates any degree of skill or dedication. Hell, I haven't even entered PvP in about a year, but I clear out "PvP Rewards daily" every time it comes up, and have progressed at least 1-2 tracks worth, just by popping a couple PvP reward potions I have from the two stacks I accumulated at one point.
>
> Like I said, I wouldn't want Legendary armor to directly drop off mobs or anything, but I've long favored better "prestige currency" options, similar to various map currencies already in the game, and perhaps tradable with those currencies, but exchangeable for bigger and better things.
>
> Like right now there's unbound magic and volatile magic, and they can't be traded. What if you could trade them 2:1 or 5:1 for the other type, so that farming a LWs3 map would never be the *best* way to get volatile magic, but if you really loved those maps, you still could. Or what if you could trade Bloodstone Rubies for Petrified Wood at some lossy exchange rate? And what if there was a store that would carry necessary components for Legendary items, and you could purchase them using varying amounts of account-bound currencies. some would have more value than others, based on how efficiently they can be collected, and they could track which ones are most often turned in and see if there's a reason why that doesn't line up with their expectations, but it would allow players to do what content they want, while meaningfully progressing goals that are currently off the table.
>
>
>
>
The players that don't want to raid but want those skins to me don't really want those skins all that much. Because if they liked the skins enough, they would find some way to get those skins through one of the following:
* Gutting through and learning raids enough to get into most PUG groups and raiding long enough to get the skin they want
* Farming the gold to buy enough raids to get the skin they want
* Find friends or guild members willing to carry them for free through the raid enough times to get the skin they want
And this is who it primarily benefits: ANet. It gets players to try content they might not otherwise try. And if the player likes what they try, they will probably stay playing the game longer. And the longer they play the game the more gems they are likely to buy with real money and the more likely they are to buy the next expansion pack. ANet's job is to get players to play longer. If you know of a successful MMO that has all skins available in all modes, you should probably show it as an example to prove to ANet that that practice is a viable one to get players to keep playing the game for long periods of time.
There is nothing you can say that will get me to change my mind on exclusive skins.
And this is someone who doesn't like WvW but has decided she wants to make another legendary and will have to play WvW to get another Gift of Battle. And I'm perfectly fine with having to gut through WvW enough to get the Gift of Battle. And I'm going for a generation 1 legendary which I could bypass it all together to get it off of the TP. But I don't fee like they should have ever been sell-able in the first place, so I'm not going to buy it off of the trading post.
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> @Ohoni.6057 said:
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> > There should be rewards in games that showcase skill and dedication towards different aspects of the game.
>
> Ok, but these shouldn't be skins, because players might want that skin without caring about the skill and dedication that this other player wants to show off.
>
> >You can't give every skin and every reward out to every aspect in the game that people like to do. Otherwise, every drop will be so low in chances of dropping that they might as well have the current drop rate of precursors for the gen 1 legendaries.
>
> I certainly wouldn't make them RNG drops, I would make them quests, things you could work towards like the Legendary weapons.
>
> >You can't have anything be map specific because someone may not like to play in that map. But if things aren't map specific then people will go to the easiest maps to do it in, which are the starter maps.
>
> Not necessarily. I prefer a scaled system, in which you make things "map specific," but you also make it so that you can earn towards them elsewhere, just in a much less efficient way. That way, if you only care about knocking the quest out as quickly and easily as possible, then you do it the "right" way, but if you really hate the right way and/or really love some other way, you can do that too, it'll just take a lot more time and effort. The idea here is NOT to balance the two options, "plan b" would definitely be balanced to be intentionally worse, but still within reason.
>
> >Because under your thought, where would it stop? Put it only on world bosses and people say "I don't like to do world bosses." So they put it in level 80 maps. People then say "I don't like to play those maps." So they put them in all maps on champions. Players go "I don't like fighting champions, it's either zerg fest and too easy or too hard because I can't solo and I'm never on when others are there."
>
> It's almost like you're describing some sort of inclined surface, excessively lubricated, rather than just considering the problem as if it were being handled by rational people who would stop at rational limits.
>
> >If you read what I said, there's nothing that shows dedication or skill in open world PvE. You can't use account creation date, because players can take breaks. You can't use age of characters because people can stand around and chat in LA all day and from what I've read, we both think those players who just stand around in LA and chat all day should not get handed legendary weapons or armor.
>
> >Which is why any legendary set for open world PvE as it is today should be just the functionality and not the cool special skin. Legendary weapons do require you to venture out into the areas of the game that have measurable ways to show dedication and skill.
>
> A doesn't follow from B. There is no reason why legendaries *should* be tied to "skill and dedication," other than that you prefer that they would. I say they should take some time and effort to achieve, but that skill doesn't need to factor into it at all, because skill isn't distributed to players evenly.
Those rewards can indeed be skins. They're the only things that every player can easily see (minis are in a way skins). And yes, there should be a mixture of exclusive items: titles, jewelry, aura's, skins, ascended gear, legendary gear, etc.
You can't have it both ways, Ohoni. You can't claim that things can't be locked due to "I don't like X" and then go things can be locked to specific maps even if people don't like those maps. Your way IS a slippery slope. One that not many people argue for. So what's to stop ANet from catering to the "not many" people who argue for the next step down? To me the rational place to stop is right where they are at right now based on how each mode is set up. It's completely rational to lock skins behind certain modes.
When I say skill, I don't mean top 10% or even top 50%. And not even necessarily skill at playing the game itself. Skill could mean knowing their limitations and knowing when to get a party together in LFG or getting a few friends to help take down a harder champion in the open world.
Until they put in some way to measure skill and dedication (like a reward track, but not necessarily a reward track), then any legendary armor or weapon skin that is solely obtainable through open world PvE, should be functionality only - no special auras or effects.
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> @Tails.9372 said:
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> >There's nothing about open world PvE that shows skill or dedication.
> Going by that logic you could say the same about the WvW armor, but I would argue that killing a s**t ton of world bosses, completing countless big meta events and throwing half a fortune at it shows at lest dedication.
>
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> > So if they give open world it's own legendary armor, it should be like the same as ascended: no special effects or aura's. Plain Jane, you wouldn't know it was legendary just by looking at it unless you knew what the skin looked like.
> Besides the fact that this is a completely nonsensical thing to ask for given that even the ascended WvW set has its own special effects, OW PvM doesn't even have a general ascended armor set to base a legendary set off of.
There's a reward track in WvW and the tickets that show that you are at least dedicated to playing WvW. Skill in WvW gets you what you want quicker. I'd say badges of honor here, but you can get them from AP chests.
There's nothing that counts the number of times you do Tequatl or Shatterer or Shadow Behemoth or any of the other bosses or other meta events. Short of AP, there's nothing that can really distinguish the player who stands around in LA and chats all day from the dedicated commander who organizes the map wide meta events on several maps. If ANet would put in something equivalent to PvP's and WvW's reward tracks then there would be something to show for giving open world PvE it's own legendary.
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> @Ohoni.6057 said:
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> > Open world PvE as it stands right now is not set up to make legendary armor even possible to obtain. There's nothing about open world PvE that shows skill or dedication.
>
> Who cares? I've been playing GW2 since launch, if that's not "dedication" then I don't know what is.
>
> >So if they give open world it's own legendary armor, it should be like the same as ascended: no special effects or aura's. Plain Jane, you wouldn't know it was legendary just by looking at it unless you knew what the skin looked like. IE: you get just the functionality of legendary armor.
>
> Why? Why are people not allowed to have nice things unless they also enjoy raiding?
>
> >But each mode should have it's own unique skin and the WvW ones should be given their own skins and not just C&P from the ascended version.
>
> What is the point of that? What if the mode you enjoy playing does not offer the skin that you think looks best, and what if the skin you like best doesn't come from a mode you want to play? That seems like a set-up for plenty of lose/lose propositions. What we want are win/win propositions, where you can always get the skin you want by playing in a mode you enjoy.
There should be rewards in games that showcase skill and dedication towards different aspects of the game. That are unique to that game mode. So that when you see them with it you know they are good at that game mode. Not have to ask them or wonder what part of the game they played to get that.
You can't give every skin and every reward out to every aspect in the game that people like to do. Otherwise, every drop will be so low in chances of dropping that they might as well have the current drop rate of precursors for the gen 1 legendaries. You can't have anything be map specific because someone may not like to play in that map. But if things aren't map specific then people will go to the easiest maps to do it in, which are the starter maps. Which means new players will find it even harder to get experience because the experienced players are all there trying to get the drop they want. Because people have to farm for hours and hours and hours and hours even on the starter maps to get the skin they want, they end up selling everything they don't want or get duplicates of, taking down the GW2 economy with it because supply skyrocketed but demand remained the same.
Because under your thought, where would it stop? Put it only on world bosses and people say "I don't like to do world bosses." So they put it in level 80 maps. People then say "I don't like to play those maps." So they put them in all maps on champions. Players go "I don't like fighting champions, it's either zerg fest and too easy or too hard because I can't solo and I'm never on when others are there."
If you read what I said, there's nothing that shows dedication or skill in open world PvE. You can't use account creation date, because players can take breaks. You can't use age of characters because people can stand around and chat in LA all day and from what I've read, we both think those players who just stand around in LA and chat all day should not get handed legendary weapons or armor.
Which is why any legendary set for open world PvE as it is today should be just the functionality and not the cool special skin. Legendary weapons do require you to venture out into the areas of the game that have measurable ways to show dedication and skill.
And I'm one of those who believes the generation 1 legendary weapons should not have been sellable on the TP. Precursors, yes. Legendary weapons, no.
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Open world PvE as it stands right now is not set up to make legendary armor even possible to obtain. There's nothing about open world PvE that shows skill or dedication.
Which is currently what all legendary armor requires: a combination of skill and dedication, plus open world activities, because you have to have a bunch of mats that you either have to farm for or farm the gold to buy.
So if they give open world it's own legendary armor, it should be like the same as ascended: no special effects or aura's. Plain Jane, you wouldn't know it was legendary just by looking at it unless you knew what the skin looked like. IE: you get just the functionality of legendary armor.
But each mode should have it's own unique skin and the WvW ones should be given their own skins and not just C&P from the ascended version.
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Maybe next time leave the question/problem up along with your answer/solution in case someone else has the same question/problem but isn't as lucky as you and can't find the answer/solution in game.
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Raids don't need easy and hard modes. The easy mode will train bad habits with regards to the raids. Those who are able to explain the differences would not play the mode that doesn't give them the raid specific reward in enough numbers to be significant.
Those who are not able to improve enough to do raids either through lack of desire or an actual limitation can do the raids by either paying for runs or by grouping with friends and/or guild members to be carried. That is if the want the raid specific rewards and players can be let into cleared raids to get the story if that's all they really want.
It's better for ANet to fix the learning of raid specific skills out in other areas like personal story and open world or even fractals. So that players learn the skills outside of the demanding raids.
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> @Orpheal.8263 said:
> Lol, whats that please for a one side poll
>
> If you take option 1, you literally say out, that you want a throttling..
> If you take option 2, you say literally, that you'd have no problems with it, if there woudl exist a throttling..
>
> How about an option 3?
>
>
> NO, I don't want any form of download speed throttling, Keep it as it is !!!
>
> If you want faster downloads, then get yourself a better ISP. Problem solved
> If your ISPs in your home area can't provide DSL by improving your lines from copper garbage (ADSL) to fibre glas (VDSL) or better FTTH, then get your neighbours together and do somethign together thefore, that in your town/village gets your internet improved by a local ISP.
>
> ISPs do something for improvement of your internet quality only, if they see, that its worth it in a region to invest money into it..
> A single person who wants better bandwidth won't bring a ISP company to do something. But alot of people, which want together that it gets improved for their region, is something else - together that might eventually bring an ISP to the point, that they will do something for your region to improve the bandwidth that you receive, thus making your downloads faster
Faster Internet isn't always realistic:
1. Not everyone can afford it
2. Fast internet isn't available in all locations of the world
People want options to throttle their download speed for GW2 for a variety of valid reasons. See previous posts by me and others.
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> @Dashingsteel.3410 said:
> Nope, played D&D for years and other assorted rpgs and I don't think it makes people evil .. I just wish games would be more creative and resist the urge to copy names from the "real world". If you can imagine a completely new world, why can't you imagine a completely new item with its own unique name?
Because in a game where you allow people to name themselves Xxx Legolas, it's just fine to have plenty of references to real world history, myth, and pop culture. It gets people talking with their friends who enjoy that part of history, enjoy mythology, or are a fan of something.
It's not some book that's being shipped off to publishers to be released into the world.
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> @Zedek.8932 said:
> I do not quite understand the problem. I know a slow connection is like having a small pipe that can not deliver the amount of water you would want, e.g. two people taking a shower at once. But you want to limit shower 1 in favour of shower 2, or, you want to control bandwidth in favour for other programs. The question is, still, why would you want to have two people taking a shower at the same time? Or in simple words: Why do you have the launcher/patcher open when you do other bandwidht-hogging things?
>
> I just can speak of a 50 MBit/s (6 MByte/s) downstream connection, but the actual slowdown is when it's being stored into the GW2.dat.
> The more files, the higher the "natural" slowdown due to writing speed of small files.
>
>
Because maybe the OP doesn't live alone and he's not the only person who wants to use the internet.
Because maybe he wants to play GW2 after watching videos from the channels he follows on YouTube so he decides to patch while watching videos.
Because he knows it's going to take a long time to download the patch and he doesn't want to sit and do nothing while it downloads.
While I'm not affected, I wouldn't say no to options being added either.
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> @Coulter.2315 said:
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> > > @Chickenooble.5014 said:
> > > > @Seera.5916 said:
> > > > > @Chickenooble.5014 said:
> > > > > > @blambidy.3216 said:
> > > > > > > @Chickenooble.5014 said:
> > > > > > > > @blambidy.3216 said:
> > > > > > > > I would love to join a guild that did raids and would help me play. But each time it’s like the guild I join to do raids. The leader is gone. Or they never do them. Or ever invited. It would just be nice to finish one.
> > > > > > > Then why don't YOU make the guild and recruit people with the same level of commitment?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would but I would have to take time to know the raids XD. Since I did only couple and the leader of the raid never got us to win one. But I could. I would just have to figure out some rules though.
> > > > > People, at some point, had to learn the raids without the infinite resources available on the internet. No Dulfy, Youtube, GW2 forums, Twitch streams. Nothing. But they did it. The leg up you have is you can review that content, familiarize yourself with it, then lead your guild based on the strategies you've learned. Will you guys fail? Sure, of course you will. But you'll also get it if you guys stick together and keep trying. :)
> > > >
> > > > But the guild leader of a guild designed to help new players learn raids, should at least have some experience. So that he or she knows they're getting the best assistance possible if someone says they're willing to teach. OR at least know someone who is willing to come on board to help vet those type of members.
> > >
> > > The thread was born out of frustration that a number of people expected to be carried in raids despite not wanting to play according to the needs of the raid. I proposed the idea that those people make their own game, go through their own struggle and see why the bigger raiding guilds have standards and expectations. They could make a guild and progress through the content with their own rules and expectations without the help of anyone else (the internet as a guide). Then, if they felt inclined, to bring in a few more disenfranchised players to help them with the raid.
> > >
> > > Like I said before -- someone had to lead the first raids and they certainly didn't have experience or knowledge of strategy.
> >
> > But I'm sure the more successful leaders were the ones with the most experience in fractals or dungeons or leading in WvW.
> >
> > And I'm not saying for every member. But I'm sure such a guild you're proposing wouldn't say no to someone who wanted to say teach the meta or teach the raid. And by teach the meta, I mean explain why 1 class over another and why this build and not that build. So that members know the why behind the meta so that they can tweak their builds should they choose to do so.
> >
> > Because the guild will also be used by players who just want to learn the raid enough to get into the groups asking for experience. Wouldn't it be nice if they came out learning the right experience and not have to make a new build and relearn the raid?
> >
> > And I'm not saying the guild leader has to have a ton of experience and knowledge. Just enough to know if someone is faking it to get a leadership position in the guild.
> >
> > Why can't there be a guild designed to better raid players and not just to teach players that they can't always play how they want?
>
> I understand your point, not everyone is a leader. However the argument is always "90% of the playerbase wants to raid but the elitists won't let us, so nerf raiding/make an easy mode/create a new forced grouping mechanism" now in that 90% there has to be a few competant people who are able to read/watch a guide and make a guild for anti-elitists.
>
> Everyone who raided in the first few days of each release (I am in this group) went in blind and had to muddle through, hell my first VG kill was without a quickness chrono xD There is so much resource available to anyone with an interest these days; guides, builds, dps benchmarks, rotations, equipment suggestions. GW2 raiding doesn't have attunements, you can literally walk into the raid on a fresh character - you don't even need to leave Lion's Arch.
>
> If you want to raid you can and it doesn't help that people are constantly begging for damage to be done to the raids (be it damaging their integrity or costing development time). If there are so many of you and you have the strength of feeling to create topics on forums and keep them going for 9 pages then you have the dedication required to watch a guide and make a group. Only you can save you.
Definitely. If they really wanted to raid, they'd find a way to get the experience needed to be a raid guild leader. Even if it is just watching videos on YouTube and guide reading.
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> @Chickenooble.5014 said:
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> > > @Chickenooble.5014 said:
> > > > @blambidy.3216 said:
> > > > > @Chickenooble.5014 said:
> > > > > > @blambidy.3216 said:
> > > > > > I would love to join a guild that did raids and would help me play. But each time it’s like the guild I join to do raids. The leader is gone. Or they never do them. Or ever invited. It would just be nice to finish one.
> > > > > Then why don't YOU make the guild and recruit people with the same level of commitment?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I would but I would have to take time to know the raids XD. Since I did only couple and the leader of the raid never got us to win one. But I could. I would just have to figure out some rules though.
> > > People, at some point, had to learn the raids without the infinite resources available on the internet. No Dulfy, Youtube, GW2 forums, Twitch streams. Nothing. But they did it. The leg up you have is you can review that content, familiarize yourself with it, then lead your guild based on the strategies you've learned. Will you guys fail? Sure, of course you will. But you'll also get it if you guys stick together and keep trying. :)
> >
> > But the guild leader of a guild designed to help new players learn raids, should at least have some experience. So that he or she knows they're getting the best assistance possible if someone says they're willing to teach. OR at least know someone who is willing to come on board to help vet those type of members.
>
> The thread was born out of frustration that a number of people expected to be carried in raids despite not wanting to play according to the needs of the raid. I proposed the idea that those people make their own game, go through their own struggle and see why the bigger raiding guilds have standards and expectations. They could make a guild and progress through the content with their own rules and expectations without the help of anyone else (the internet as a guide). Then, if they felt inclined, to bring in a few more disenfranchised players to help them with the raid.
>
> Like I said before -- someone had to lead the first raids and they certainly didn't have experience or knowledge of strategy.
But I'm sure the more successful leaders were the ones with the most experience in fractals or dungeons or leading in WvW.
And I'm not saying for every member. But I'm sure such a guild you're proposing wouldn't say no to someone who wanted to say teach the meta or teach the raid. And by teach the meta, I mean explain why 1 class over another and why this build and not that build. So that members know the why behind the meta so that they can tweak their builds should they choose to do so.
Because the guild will also be used by players who just want to learn the raid enough to get into the groups asking for experience. Wouldn't it be nice if they came out learning the right experience and not have to make a new build and relearn the raid?
And I'm not saying the guild leader has to have a ton of experience and knowledge. Just enough to know if someone is faking it to get a leadership position in the guild.
Why can't there be a guild designed to better raid players and not just to teach players that they can't always play how they want?
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> @Chickenooble.5014 said:
> > @blambidy.3216 said:
> > > @Chickenooble.5014 said:
> > > > @blambidy.3216 said:
> > > > I would love to join a guild that did raids and would help me play. But each time it’s like the guild I join to do raids. The leader is gone. Or they never do them. Or ever invited. It would just be nice to finish one.
> > > Then why don't YOU make the guild and recruit people with the same level of commitment?
> > >
> >
> > I would but I would have to take time to know the raids XD. Since I did only couple and the leader of the raid never got us to win one. But I could. I would just have to figure out some rules though.
> People, at some point, had to learn the raids without the infinite resources available on the internet. No Dulfy, Youtube, GW2 forums, Twitch streams. Nothing. But they did it. The leg up you have is you can review that content, familiarize yourself with it, then lead your guild based on the strategies you've learned. Will you guys fail? Sure, of course you will. But you'll also get it if you guys stick together and keep trying. :)
But the guild leader of a guild designed to help new players learn raids, should at least have some experience. So that he or she knows they're getting the best assistance possible if someone says they're willing to teach. OR at least know someone who is willing to come on board to help vet those type of members.
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> @YoukiNeko.6047 said:
> @"OriOri.8724" no one said that core spec should be locked behind lvl 71. If they change the system so you unlock the elite trait line at lvl 30 (or sooner) and then the others.
> @"Seera.5916" Yeah some builds will die, new will be made. Isn't the cooldoown already like 2s for swamp?
> @"Aeolus.3615" Yeah pretty much.
> @"Adenin.5973" So only people with expansions should have useful builds for anything that is not open world AA runs?
> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" So it would be better if the Devs never balance anything and just keep throwing elite specializations at us. And lets face it everything could delay development for future expansions. Elite trait lines are so powerful because only 1 can be used at a time. So every time a core trait line is buffed, it will most likely buff the elite even more.
No new builds will be made! You're removing builds only.
Unless they give everyone the exact same skills and traits, they'll never be able to get a perfect balance. And that's if they never add in a new elite spec or base spec. Plus given the average skill level of players isn't known to the devs as they read logs and forums, they have to take educated guesses on whether someone lost to someone else due to a class or skill being OP or UP or the players' skills were that different.
If core players should get an elite, it should be an elite that is added to the game.
Maybe for Elementalists if you take the core ele elite, you get access to weapon swap, but you don't get free choice of all 4 attunements. The first minor trait gives you fire. The first major trait decides which other trait (air, water, or earth) as well as a related other skill. Add some more hero challenges to the core world as well.
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Your suggestion kills my Weaver build and probably many other Weaver builds.
Arcane lowers the attunement swap cool down. And given the huge push to swap attunements in Weaver, that change would negatively impact Weavers.
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> @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:
> > > @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
> > > > @TexZero.7910 said:
> > > > > @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
> > > > > I don't really get what you mean. The puzzles were made with the idea you would be jumping through them to the end, not with a mount. They didn't restrict mesmer portals and this was their worst mistake. It completely cheapens the achievement. They made the decision to hand candies out and let everyone get the achievement but why? Do you feel good you got it?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The objective is to get from point A to Z
> > > >
> > > > How you get there varies from person to person. If Bob gets there from only jumping left, but Suzie gets there from Jumping Right, and Egert get there from using a portal does it matter as the end results are the same ?
> > > >
> > > > This is the point. It doesn't matter how you get there. The end goal is that you do and to that end mounts/gliders/items/skills i dont see as an issue as each one opens up a diverse solutions for solving the puzzle.
> > >
> > > Are you really arguing that point? You're purposefully being ignorant here. It's not a diverse solution. It's boring. There was no challenge. Forget Suzie went left, John went right and Harry hopped on his springer. The puzzles were designed to be played by jumping - usually down a linear route. Why don't they put an elevator at the end and forget the whole thing? Don't be stupid, Suzie and John, and even you Harry. Forget the mount and portal guys, let's just take the elevator straight to the finishing line - its a new creative way to finish the JP.
> >
> > Which... you yourself can do. I don't see why if you want to play one way but someone found another way of doing it you're trying to set them in your way.
> >
> > Okay here's one thing. It's, of course, drastic unless it's in person on my own computer... if let's say I couldn't beat a jumping puzzle and no mounts or portals would work... what's stopping me from just letting a friend who I know that can beat it to simply beat it for me?
> >
> > I mean seriously if let's say I couldn't have beaten the Mad King Tower for example but I knew someone who could've beaten it for me, then um... would you try to hit me with a ruler and going, "No! Bad! Bad Yumi! Bad! No!" or something?
> > Yeah just even doing that I took out the challenge out of it for me, but what I'm getting at is there are so many solutions on someone getting to the end.
> >
> > They exploit it or do it fair.
> > It's 2 points for the achievement to do it once every on an account and the items in it is never every worth it... no matter which maps the puzzle on.
> >
> > Majority of the time, people will only do the puzzle if they get something out of it, or "well it's a daily" and they know a mesmer is there to port them.
> > I myself usually try to make it my duty to beat each puzzle at least once the right way to the end to see how it is. After that, I will find any exploitation to get back there another time because I've done it already and find the majority of them to be unfun.
> >
> > Still, find it shocking how you're like that on how someone else plays that doesn't affect you in any way.
>
> What's stopping you from getting a friend to do it for you on your account? Practicality. Availability. The question is - DO you have a friend who would do it for you? Even if you don't know someone like that in real life, would you go to such lengths you'd give your account details away to complete a JP? Your example could be applied to current content too. Oh you did some high-end raid content? Well we need to make sure who was on your account first. At least someone is legitimately doing the puzzle in this scenario.
>
> You find it shocking that I'm taking this view, because you say it doesn't affect me. That's quite simply wrong. Because the approach by Arenanet was so casual and thoughtless, we lost out on good rewards for completing the puzzle. I was doing one jumping puzzle which was really really hard, and it was kind of annoying at one point where someone's portal was making it harder for me to progress because it actually covered a small platform, the surface area of which was hard to see.
Rewards for doing jumping puzzles were never great to begin with, so not sure how we lost out on good rewards.
Jumping puzzles to me are the Easter eggs of the maps. Meant to be something you stumble upon and get a small little reward for completing it so that players who aren't that good at jumping puzzles don't feel left out if they do not wish to use other means to bypass the jumping puzzle where possible. There isn't even a title associated with completing any or even all of the jumping puzzles. Just AP for each individual one - and you only get the AP once.
The mesmer that put it there, may have been helping a friend who had fallen to that level from an area above or had placed one end of it knowing that he tends to mess up there. I don't disagree that it is annoying, especially if you were in a good rhythm with the jumping puzzle that the portal interrupted. But I don't think the few instances where that does happen outweighs the benefits of portal usage in a jumping puzzle. And if the players want to cheat and get the AP without doing the puzzle, then that's fine by me. It doesn't make my feeling accomplishment worth any less.
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> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:
> > @zombyturtle.5980 said:
> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:
> >
> > > Your right there is no such thing as video game diploma but the fact of the matter is that I'm a very experienced raider, and whether anyone believes me or not I can one shot a boss after watching a YouTube video, I've done this many times before in many mmos. But there is no way to prove this or demonstrate any of my skill except for to join a training raid, which is designed (made up by the community as a stop gap measure) not to succeed and others in the group will make me look bad as we will fail over and over with no intent of success.
> > >
> > > **I'm not wasting my time proving to people who I am in this manner**, and I don't want to start my own group as this is way too much effort and **others would then have to prove themselves to me** and I'm not interested in that either as there is no way to easily connect with other good players. There are no other alternatives to this and there should be, because there are in other mmos.
> >
> > You are a hypocrite. You want a double standard. You think you shouldnt have to prove yourself to anyone, but then expect people to prove themselves to you. You use this as an excuse for not starting your own group (which takes 2 seconds). Thats not an excuse.
> >
> > Your skill isnt so great that you should get special treatment in this game. Make your own group. You havnt offered a single decent reason why you cant. You expect anet to change the entire raiding community and raids themselves with NERFS for you. Give an actual compelling reason why you cant just start your own group first then we might have an actual discussion.
>
> Your misreading, I said that if I formed my own group I would have to lower myself to make others jump through the same hoops that others are expecting me to jump through when I try to join there groups. This is because, Anet won't introduce alternatives or easier ways for me to find people, so as it currently is, I would end up vetting people the same way they are vetting me, and I don't want to do that, so I won't. I'd rather Anet change/improve it.
So let's say at Time A on Day B, that 10 people, including yourself want to do Raid Wing X. You're the only one who has any form of experience or knowledge, the others are complete raid newbies and so lazy they haven't even looked at YouTube or read a Wiki article.
If they joined through an auto-join, you'd welcome them with open arms and be content with spending 3+ hours raiding until you succeeded.
BUT
If they joined through the existing LFG post that you made, you'd have to vet them.
Why does an auto-join suddenly make you willing to take anyone of any skill level? If you care so much about how well a player plays that you'd have to vet them if you were the leader of your group, then why would you accept players in an auto-join of any skill level?
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If you can work out who owns the room (talking with others, etc, etc), then you may be able to reach out to them to figure out what you did wrong and if there is anything you can do to get unblocked.
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> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:
> > > > @Seera.5916 said:
> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:
> > > > > > @Talindra.4958 said:
> > > > > > not sure about fixing elitism but perhaps fixing players own attitude towards the games first might help. I have seen people starting a month ago and never given up and achieved what they need. I don't see any problem for any new raiders to start today if they stop crying and actually start to put effort in it.
> > > > > > I pugged my way from start, I have seen people getting kicked, seen people refuse to change, seen people cry about everything but refuse to fit in. so these are the people that they should accept that you either need to fight for it to achieve it or leave it. similar to real life you cant forced urself to be a doctor, engineer, lawyer, artist, you need to put effort to train urself to it. and no point crying about it by only try 40 hours training?
> > > > > > we wipe over and over and over and over and over before we master how to play in a team .. how to manage mechanics. I also seen people try a few and they couldn't accept that they couldn't do it, they really have to say all the bad stuff about raids.
> > > > > > accept that, the fact there are a handful of raiders, and anet will continue to provide reasonable updates for them and similar to fractal, similar to living story. pvp & wvw? anet probably has a long term plan or none due to good reasons. so accept the fact and play or don't bother.
> > > > >
> > > > > Only I'm overqualified when it comes to raiding, but grouping in gw2 is too frustrating compared to other mmos.
> > > > >
> > > > > If I take your analogy of training to be a lawyer or doctor for years, and apply it to myself, then I already have put the time in, but it's as if I'm unable to show my diploma, a resume or work history to others.
> > > >
> > > > Except the diploma is proof of TRAINING. Work history is proof you've done the job before, and believe me it's harder to get a job as a doctor in one field if you've only had experience in a different field.
> > > >
> > > > You have not shown any proof that you've trained. Claiming you've watched a video is not proof. I'm not saying you haven't watched any videos, but people would lie if all they had to say was that they watched a few YouTube videos.
> > > >
> > > > You're frustrated that you have to socialize in an MMO in order to get into a group to raid?! Wow. And this is coming from a shy introvert who doesn't like communicating with people. But I will do it in MMO's or not partake in the content that requires it. And dungeons, raids, fractals, meta-maps, etc REQUIRE communication both before and during the encounter. I'm actually honestly SHOCKED that there is not MORE content than currently exists that requires me to group up with others or do without the rewards. This is multiplayer game, not a single player game.
> > >
> > > Your right there is no such thing as video game diploma but the fact of the matter is that I'm a very experienced raider, and whether anyone believes me or not I can one shot a boss after watching a YouTube video, I've done this many times before in many mmos. But there is no way to prove this or demonstrate any of my skill except for to join a training raid, which is designed (made up by the community as a stop gap measure) not to succeed and others in the group will make me look bad as we will fail over and over with no intent of success.
> > >
> > > I'm not wasting my time proving to people who I am in this manner, and I don't want to start my own group as this is way too much effort and others would then have to prove themselves to me and I'm not interested in that either as there is no way to easily connect with other good players. There are no other alternatives to this and there should be, because there are in other mmos.
> >
> > And if I recall correctly, ANet said that raids were not meant to be PUG'ed. Meaning it was supposed to be difficulty for 10 strangers to band together to defeat the raid.
> >
> > Meaning training raids are there to give you the training needed in order to form your own dedicated group. Be it by finding 9 other like minded individuals and becoming friends or be it by finding a guild that raids that takes you in after doing a trial run or two.
> >
> >
> > And one minute. You don't want to prove yourself to others, but you want them to prove themselves to you?!?!?!?!?! That's the most hypocritical thing you've said in this entire thread. If you want others to accept people at their word, then YOU need to be the one to start that movement. You need to go out there and start "take you at your word" groups when it comes to ability to learn or experience with the raid.
> >
> > You can't have it both ways. You can't tell others to accept you without proof, but then turn around and not extend the same courtesy to other people.
>
> Me vetting people into my group is a product of there not being easier raids or auto grouping, which is what is the point of this thread. Anet needs to fix this, since player mentality won't change. If I take the time to make a raid group my mentality certainly wouldn't change if I had to put in that amount of effort, with no features to assist me in finding players.
You aren't meant to have any easy time to PUG raids. Raids are DESIGNED for STATIC groups. As in 10 guild members, 10 friends, 10 people who decided they like each other enough to raid together.
Easier raids and auto grouping will not fix the problem given the purpose of raids. Raids are supposed to be challenging group content aimed at static groups. Not PUG's and they aren't meant to be easy.
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> @Rennie.6750 said:
> "Elitists" are from my experience a very specific type of player: works a lot, little time to play, so little time to practice and really average at best. Usually, sub-average. When you listen to them, everything is easy, but when you look at them they're just kitten around. Since they have little practice but also little time outside of their daily wage slavery duty, they get angry fast. They're quick to blame and don't see inherent value in bettering themselves having a couple of idiots doing random idiotic things in the instance and having to be the better player. Good players usually have more free time and don't care much if they have to step up their game because there's a dead weight or two. They have a more relaxed stance on this and the challenge of having to carry someone roleplaying a carpet isn't terrifying.
>
> The problem here is that you're asking people who are unable or unwilling to improve, because they think they're good enough and don't want to commit more time to better their skills. All they can do is play the blame game, so, really, your only option is to change some core elements of the game design, such as removing LFG and adding a raid finder, different tiers of difficulty to breed capable pug players just like the fractal tier system, or increasing the reaction time to mechanics to make raids less difficult to learn and play. There's no serious other option if you want to get rid off elitism. You won't change elitists unless you tell them "ok now you play that way, with these players we found for you or you don't raid at all". If you want them to become better players and start becoming a positive force in a group, they have to be forced to do so, otherwise all they do is rolling the LFG roulette until they find someone who can deal with their sub average skills since they refuse to put more time in the game. Overall their life isn't very interesting and they don't have much fun, and I pity them more than I blame them, but good game design can really alleviate toxic behaviour most of the time, however, it takes a lot of dev time.
That's the bad kind of elitist.
There is also the good elitist who does have the time, skill, and dedication. Those elitists are typically more than happy to bring average players up in skill level to increase the pool of good elitists. The more players that are good elitists, the better it is for the mode
More “paths” to legendary gear...
in Guild Wars 2 Discussion
Posted
> @Swagger.1459 said:
> > @Seera.5916 said:
> > > @Swagger.1459 said:
> > > > @TexZero.7910 said:
> > > > > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:
> > > > > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:
> > > > > > If it’s open world then it better be a time-gated grindfest so that people have to put in a tremendous amount of effort towards it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, because heaven forbid that people should be able to have FUN in games, right?
> > > >
> > > > Because heaven forbid a luxury and prestige item retain those via hard work and dedication, right ?
> > > >
> > > > Also isn't the fun you had along the way making it part of the fun you had in games ?
> > >
> > > I’m going to comment on this because you keep equating other potential paths, in other modes, as easy... Nobody is asking for easy, or devoid of “hard work and dedication”, that’s an assumption on your part and a huge flaw in your argument.
> > >
> > > The request was having additional paths to legendary gear... and most of us know the dev team would still be using similar time frames of effort to earn each piece of gear and the same material requirements.
> > >
> > > Is this understandable to you?
> >
> > That's the thing, Ohoni is asking for open world and there is nothing currently in game that requires hard work or dedication about being successful in open world PvE that's measurable and wouldn't cause more problems than it solves (if you measure how many successful DS metas someone runs then everyone and their mother will want to be a commander of that and then watch the map chat become toxic as multiple commanders all try to command at the same time...). And every time ANet tries to put in harder things, the community asks for it to be nerfed and ANet obliges. Open world PvE is easy compared to raids, PvP and the PvP aspects of WvW.
>
> By that logic, we should remove all gen 1 and 2 legendary weapons, and aurora, from open world pve and put them in raids... because ya know... those owpve "easy" mode areas don't require any "hard work and dedication"... We should also make it a bannable offense to sell, and buy, raid runs because letting players stand there isn't "hard work or dedication" either. Right?
Last time I checked, I had to do some dungeons to make a legendary and if I wanted to make my own precursor, I have to do some fractals. And I have to do WvW.
And did you actually read my replies to Ohoni? Raids aren't cheap to buy runs of because you're paying for the time of 9 other people. That takes dedication to farm that gold enough times to get the necessary currency.
And did you read what I said: nothing in game currently that's MEASURABLE.
And I said open world PvE was easy compared to the other modes or other aspects of the same mode. The maps have gotten harder, but the AI still has the enemies stand in lava fonts. Real players in PvP and WvW would most likely get out of the area (not necessarily burn a dodge, however). And raids require the coordination and skill that is too much for open world.