Ayrilana.1396

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > I'm not going to answer your question because of the logical fallacy which you're using. Create an unbiased and fair question.

> >

> > EDIT: I'll just fix it for you.

> >

> > > So, is their design good and they should stick to it or it isn't? Pick one.

> >

> > I find their design to be good.

>

> And yet you've just said that:

> > The issue with raids stems not with raids themselves but with the direction Anet decided to go with GW2 from the beginning.

> That is also part of the design.

>

Which has nothing to do with raids themselves.

> If everything was right with the design, Raids would not end up being abandoned. And yet they **did** end up that way. So yeah, in that way my question _was_ a leading one. Or rather a rhetorical one, because the history already answered it.

>

Anet has abandoned, or put on hold, a lot of things in this game. Dungeons haven't seen new content since 2013. WvW barely gets any updates as well as sPvP. Fractals got a new fractal after how long? Guild missions. The majority of the game where they simply ignore bugs that have plagued players and prevented progression. I'm sure that I'm missing other things. The point is that the abandonment itself does not necessarily mean that there is actually anything wrong with the content.

> The truth is, that the issue _was_ with the Raids themselves - or, to be more specific, with the fact that as they were implemented, they were not a good match with the rest of the game. So, either the issue was with them being implemented in a way that was wrong _for GW2_, or with the fact that **they were implemented at all**. And you even indirectly acknowledge that in that last quote.

>

Truth? So your **OPINION** is now truth? If you feel that it's proof then by all means give facts otherwise please don't state your opinion as such.

> Sure, you may say (like Cyninja) that the issue was more with general management, not specifically with Raids, but that still brings us to Anet making some bad design decisions. If they can make a bad decision in one place, they can make it in another - so, no design decision they made in the past should be treated as unchangeable, because obviously at least _some_ of them were wrong. At best, we might say that some won't be changed due to practical reasons (lack of resources), but saying that something should stay that way because they once decided so is just tantamount to saying that the game cannot be improved in any way. And, in this specific case, is the same as saying that Raids were simply destined to fail from the beginning, that nothing can be changed about it, and that this is (as you said) a "good design".

That's your opinion.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > No. I am assuming that if something is obviously wrong, and it's clear that the matters don't go in good direction, not doing anything but just continuing on the previous course just because we're sticking to some completely arbitrary prior decision is not the wisest choice.

> > >

> > > Original design decisions should never be considered sacrosanct and completely unviolable - especially when it's clear that something somewhere in those original designs is not working right. Sometimes things need to change.

> > >

> >

> > Something is _obviously_ wrong? What would that be? The issue with raids stems not with raids themselves but with the direction Anet decided to go with GW2 from the beginning.

> So, is their design good and they should stick to it (in which case why raids are abandoned), or it isn't (in which case no design decision, including the one you brought up for raids, should be considered inviolable)? Pick one.

>

I'm not going to answer your question because of the logical fallacy which you're using. Create an unbiased and fair question.

EDIT: I'll just fix it for you.

> So, is their design good and they should stick to it or it isn't? Pick one.

I find their design to be good.

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > You're not accounting for these being **UNIQUE** rewards which are not available elsewhere in the game.

> > >

> > > IMO they're not. The mistforged variants of WvW and PVP armor have more up to date graphics and coalescence almost makes me gag with its graphic. Also, other MMOs deprecate old content making it easier to grab the unique things, which was my main point. Mythic Antorus is the only place you can earn the corresponding tier set. WoW DOES have a few rewards that go away, but they're clearly communicated and a 100% drop rate so even filthy casuals can just farm some gold and buy a run (a single boss kill actually) and they're done (doing the same thing in GW2 costs WAY more cash in real dollars if we're talking the leggies as you have to pay for 150-300 kills depending on your account and what exactly we're talking about).

> > >

> > > updated for accuracy.

> >

> > Personal preference is not the same as there being no unique rewards.

> >

> > As I had said in another part of the post you quoted, Anet has specifically stated that they would “depreciate” older raids as time went on.

>

> I think you meant to say "would not" because your previous post was contrarian to me suggesting they should. Do you have a source on this? Do the versions of the armors look that different to you? The heavy ones look VERY similar except for a few pieces. But okay. If that makes you feel special then fine.

Yeah, I meant would not. I'll try to find a source but I believe it was a video so it may be more difficult to find. Essentially is was them commenting about how raids in other MMOs became obsolete when new ones were added and they wanted to avoid that. They also brought up the elite maps from GW1 which have remained challenging.

Considering the the legendary armor skins are unique, along with animations, I'd say that they are unique. Also look at all of the skins, minis, and so on that are available from doing raids. Do they exist outside of raids? No. They do not.

EDIT: Found their announcement about raids. At around the 14 minute mark is where he starts talking about not wanting the content to be depreciated over time. It's also stated that raids are intended for those that are looking for a challenge as they're designed to be the most challenging content in the game. This is echoed through their various blogs and one or two dev posts on the forums.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > This would go against their statement when raids first came out if they were to "depreciate" it.

> > > Yes. It would. So? It's clear their original approach did **not** work out. If they're going to keep to it, it means no new raids ever. Is that what you want?

> >

> > You’re assuming that them not making earlier raids easier is the issue.

> No. I am assuming that if something is obviously wrong, and it's clear that the matters don't go in good direction, not doing anything but just continuing on the previous course just because we're sticking to some completely arbitrary prior decision is not the wisest choice.

>

> Original design decisions should never be considered sacrosanct and completely unviolable - especially when it's clear that something somewhere in those original designs is not working right. Sometimes things need to change.

>

Something is _obviously_ wrong? What would that be? The issue with raids stems not with raids themselves but with the direction Anet decided to go with GW2 from the beginning.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > Obviously they should have a way to disable this mastery so what few people are still raiding are still raiding & get the full rewards, but honestly the content, especially W1-W4 are so old, they deserve a deprecation path like this if we want GW2 comparable to other MMOs. I also believe the raiding community is getting weaker, not stronger right now, all I've seen is anecdotal but that's my impresson.

> >

> > This would go against their statement when raids first came out if they were to "depreciate" it.

> Yes. It would. So? It's clear their original approach did **not** work out. If they're going to keep to it, it means no new raids ever. Is that what you want?

You’re assuming that them not making earlier raids easier is the issue.

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > You're not accounting for these being **UNIQUE** rewards which are not available elsewhere in the game.

>

> IMO they're not. The mistforged variants of WvW and PVP armor have more up to date graphics and coalescence almost makes me gag with its graphic. Also, other MMOs deprecate old content making it easier to grab the unique things, which was my main point. Mythic Antorus is the only place you can earn the corresponding tier set. WoW DOES have a few rewards that go away, but they're clearly communicated and a 100% drop rate so even filthy casuals can just farm some gold and buy a run (a single boss kill actually) and they're done (doing the same thing in GW2 costs WAY more cash in real dollars if we're talking the leggies as you have to pay for 150-300 kills depending on your account and what exactly we're talking about).

>

> updated for accuracy.

Personal preference is not the same as there being no unique rewards.

As I had said in another part of the post you quoted, Anet has specifically stated that they would “depreciate” older raids as time went on.

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Katary.7096" said:

> > > @"chrispy.7182" said:

> > >

> > > I see your point. But you could remedy this by:

> > >

> > > 1) Severely nerfing the rewards. So in the normal Radi ti takes, what, 6 weeks is it to get 150 LI? So in the easy version it would take maybe 6 months or something. Frankly, all the people who play the easy version are the people who are never going to play the normal version because of the barrier to entry. So they will have no problem waiting 6 months to get their legendary armour.

> > Why make the reward nerf this complicated? Simply remove LI, LD, Minis, Skins and Achievements and call it a day.

>

> To give people an alternative to WvW for legendary armor/ring mats? Honestly no one needs to touch raids to cover every slot at this point. I can literally kill guards for hours on end roaming in WvW and the game will shove legendary crafting materials up my kitten. (sure I'll have to cap and/or kill another player every so often, but it's not that hard).

>

There's sPvP or they can do the actual raids which we have now.

> Why would you, if you love raiding, be opposed to more people experiencing the same content you do, and progress at a slower pace? If you love the game mode, you should want more involvement, even if it's not at your level because then *GASP* anet has a reason to develop more of your difficult content of choice. And heck, these people are also not trying to take anything from you by suggesting your more difficult method be more rewarding (as it should be). Hardcore players already whine the raids aren't difficult enough. There's no reason for people to complain about difficulty if there's an alternate method of getting the same rewards. And then you still get the *CHALLENGING* content you and the rest of the raid community claim you want (and you and anet don't have to worry about the haters if there's an easy mode and can go all-out). it's a win-win and legendary armor/ring isn't so special any more.

>

You're not accounting for these being **UNIQUE** rewards which are not available elsewhere in the game.

> Obviously they should have a way to disable this mastery so what few people are still raiding are still raiding & get the full rewards, but honestly the content, especially W1-W4 are so old, they deserve a deprecation path like this if we want GW2 comparable to other MMOs. I also believe the raiding community is getting weaker, not stronger right now, all I've seen is anecdotal but that's my impresson.

This would go against their statement when raids first came out if they were to "depreciate" it.

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > > > @"chrispy.7182" said:

> > > > > This is the reason why I stopped playing. They need to make two versions of the raids in my opinion. One is the normal tier we have now, and the other is a beginners tier. The beginners tier will have the same mechanics but will be much more forgiving (less damage) so that people can pug and get to know the mechanics. The rewards from these would be less obviously. But it would just give new people space to practice until they know the raids and can then enter the higher tier when they know the mechanics.

> > > >

> > > > If its to forgiving people will just out heal it and ignore the mechanics and learning nothing.

> > > >

> > > > I say just make it the same nerf rewards and take away the timer.

> > > >

> > > > People can go full defence and still learn nothing but complete it.

> > > > But if they really want to learn they learn with the true severity of the mechanics.

> > > > Edit

> > > > Ofcourse no normal achievement progress, they could add other aps to it tho.

> > >

> > > Once you take away AP/LIs, you might as well just do strikes instead.

> >

> > The reasons being given for training and story must all be BS then. Just an excuse to get the rewards easier.

>

> Maybe not, but as others have stated, there's powerful enough defensive mechanisms that you're not really getting much in the way of training. Story you can just watch a youtube video. I mean rewards is what 90% of the player base are playing for. Otherwise why would PuGs and so many statics recruiting have such stringent KP requirements? People want rewards FAST. I can't read into the other's intentions. See my post below though because I feel like you're trying to say people don't deserve to earn those slots not doing the exact same thing as you.

I said nothing in regards to joining pugs/statics.

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > No, they could just do three racial armor sets and that would be it.

> > No. The players who play as tengu will not accept that and will demand existing and future armor sets to be created for them.

>

> Future perhaps, but existing? I'd play Tengu with "only" racial armor, no problem.

Both. We saw it with legendary armor when sPvP and WvW wanted legendary armor in their games modes. They made the argument of getting it with no special skins. When it was added, they quickly started demanding for unique skins.

“They” being them as a collective. In the case of Tengu, you cannot speak for players as some may have no issue with limited armor availability, others would have issues, and there may even be those who say they wouldn’t have an issue just to make it an issue later in hopes of increasing the likelihood of getting what they want.

You can just do the daily conversion at Dragonsfall over the course of like a month and a half or so and get 250 of each.

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > @"chrispy.7182" said:

> > > This is the reason why I stopped playing. They need to make two versions of the raids in my opinion. One is the normal tier we have now, and the other is a beginners tier. The beginners tier will have the same mechanics but will be much more forgiving (less damage) so that people can pug and get to know the mechanics. The rewards from these would be less obviously. But it would just give new people space to practice until they know the raids and can then enter the higher tier when they know the mechanics.

> >

> > If its to forgiving people will just out heal it and ignore the mechanics and learning nothing.

> >

> > I say just make it the same nerf rewards and take away the timer.

> >

> > People can go full defence and still learn nothing but complete it.

> > But if they really want to learn they learn with the true severity of the mechanics.

> > Edit

> > Ofcourse no normal achievement progress, they could add other aps to it tho.

>

> Once you take away AP/LIs, you might as well just do strikes instead.

The reasons being given for training and story must all be BS then. Just an excuse to get the rewards easier.

Considering that CMs add mechanics which teams can spend hours learning despite having done normal, I don’t see an easy mode doing all that much. If the mechanics aren’t threatening enough, players will do what they normally do and just ignore them.

No. It will not work.

Players do fractals because of the rewards and not necessarily for the challenge. Adding a rotating challenge to DRMs is going to kill off the remaining population that still does them. The rewards for DRMs are poor so it’s not worth doing them outside of achievements.

But at around 135G, they’re better off just buying the orichalcum ore that they need instead unless they need more than 6K for some reason.

If they were to buy it, it was take like 47 days of converting 150 mithril before breaking even.

It'd take some time to break even if you bought the gem store item for the glyph itself. It's currently unavailable and I wouldn't consider it a great thing as you're limited to 150 conversions per day for what you want.

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Veprovina.4876" said:

> > > @"Jorhn.3926" said:

> > > You can also use this :

> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glyph_of_Alchemy

> > >

> > > To convert mithril node into orichalcum node

> >

> > Thanks but that's a cash shop item right? For that price i'd have to farm a LOT of materials in general to break even.

>

> You can buy limited version of that glyph tools for karma at the big citys harvest tool merchants.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gathering_Merchant

Not anymore.

> Removed the Alchemist's Mining Pick, Alchemist's Logging Axe, and Alchemist's Harvesting Sickle from the inventories of all gathering merchants.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/951744/#Comment_951744

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > Please no. Keep in mind, that introducing new playable race would require a lot of work on fitting already existing armors to tengu

>

> No, they could just do three racial armor sets and that would be it.

No. The players who play as tengu will not accept that and will demand existing and future armor sets to be created for them.

This would crash the market for them and give one less reason to even participate in the festival. Unless you're not referring to the divine ones.

> @"Veprovina.4876" said:

> Is there a way to farm it other than the occasional orichalcum node, and a few permanent ones?

No. Those are only the direct ways to farm them.

> @"DAN.7314" said:

> I've been running Metrica CM solo each day 3 times for the daily crystals and for the gold chests. Have done this last 2 weeks. Prior to that I did normal mode 3x for the dailies. Also did 15 runs for the CM achievements when DRMs were first released. I have easily looted100 final chest rewards with maybe 2/3 being gold chests, and haven't seen a single weapon box drop. I can see why they are so expensive, but it's ridiculous to be part of a story achievement. I REALLY hope the tyrian seal currency gets some better things to buy (like account bound weapon versions) because that's about all you get asides the daily prismatic crystals.

That's pretty much why I stuck to doing normal DRMs after the achievements because I figured it wouldn't be worth my time and effort.

It’s false.

I don't believe we'd get new mounts as that's a PoF feature. Different skins is another story which I believe they'd definitely do.

For me it has always been when they are in the blue.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"LordMorgul.9845" said:

> > > i want to remeber you all that les than 20% of player base do this content and there is people that don't do this content becouse of toxic elitism and play by d1

> >

> > If we take a look at the easier Strike Missions we can see that 20% of the playerbase (at best) does those too.

> No, we can't. Efficiency statistics at this point are way too unreliable, considering that way too many efficiency accounts can no longer be considered to be "part of the playerbase", as they aren't active anymore.

>

> We don't have _any_ reliable statistics about more recent content at all.

>

> But if we _were_ to look at efficiency, we would see completion ratios (out of _all_ efficiency accounts, including inactive ones, remember):

> Coming Home (first step of of Bound by Blood): 118,147 of 279,661 (42.247%)

> A Race to Arms (last step of Bound by Blood): 97,737 of 279,661 (34.948%)

> Stay Frosty (completion of Shiverpeak Strike): 71,209 of 279,661 (25.463%)

>

> So, we can say that, among efficiency players, 71,209 people completed the strike, out of 97,737 that had completed that LS chapter. Which is 72.858% completion ratio. Or, if we compare it to people that even tried to start the story, it would be 71,209 out of 118,147. Which is 60.271%

>

> In both cases, way above 20%.

>

> (by the way, until Steel and Fire, you basically had to do at least first part of the story to even attempt the strike, because the only entrance then was in Grothmar).

>

>

You don't need to complete, or even start, the story episode to do that strike.