Glad to see the same professions are still Meta (Fix mesmers!)

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Thorstienn.1642" said:

> How do people know what "class" topped the leaderboards? I just see names of players.

 

PvP community is so small that nearly everyone knows everyone else. Other than that, top players usually stream or you can see what they play in queue/hotm arena etc.

[viquing.8254]

> @"Thorstienn.1642" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > > > Given that there are 9 professions, would you expect to see much more than 5 in the top 50?

> > > > "Only 5 in the top 50" doesn't sound like much, until you actually stop and think about it. Having 6 would technically be over-representation.

> > >

> > > I think he means "Mesmer had 5 or more representation on only 5 seasons out of 21."

> >

> > Pretty much this, people whine against mesmers for ages but apart the differents chrono tank hypes and one condi mirage session, mesmers were far to be over-represented on EU LB.

> >

> > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > @viquing.8254 I use scepter mostly with malicious sorcery to get clones quicker. However if what you say is true then they should buffs staff/ scepter ambushes, right? But I honestly think clones have a very low attackrate. while you get a 4 chains in they propably manage to hit one skill and it is also the one doing the minimum of the dmg. unless you got maximum number of of clones present, but that is unlikely in current scenraio, because of how fast they get killed. so to fix this they would need to reduce staff/scepter auto attacks, correct? or they nerf all condi autoattacks and buff autoattack rate of the clones to casterlevel. and then the ambushes would be more rewarding than now with IH actually being considered a GM trait.

> > >

> > Clones shouldn't apply condi on auto, it was a problem since launch and lead to the most incoherent gut on the class. (Old clone death traits, current mirage one dodge, other condi application gutted to hell.). And on top of that it create disparity between power and condi.

> >

>

> How do people know what "class" topped the leaderboards? I just see names of players.

 

By playing against these players everyday + by noticing account name on mesmers you meet by playing at this rate + looking at top streamer steams + there were tools like https://gw2armory.com/ , https://gw2efficiency.com/account/pvp .

With this, you can generally know what kind of class play each account (or if they multiclass.) with a very high precision.

[pninak.1069]

yea my idea to fix clones would be to nerf main mesmer dmg no matter if it is normal dmg or condi and then make clones with more hp doing the exact same amount of dmg. this way mesmer does 1/4 of dmg without clones and 1 if it has 3 clones present. this would fix IH too, because it makes power builds more viable again. but this means that mes in wvw is even worse off than atm. Mesmer means nothing in big fights and works excellent as a duelling class. But I find it weird see all the people cry about mes when you still got thief that hardly can be countered in wvw, because some classes don't have aoe and even if perma can just wait til you spammed your skills of cd. if mirage is supposed to be the thief version for mesmer then we should get more dodges instead. but this would work after they reworked some of that stuff.

 

condi dmg is underwhelming. they could take out the dmg part of the skills and add more stacks instead. Because right now even on condi builds around 50-60% dmg comes from the power component of each skill.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said :

> > > No they don't....mesmers for the first time in 5 years have to work for their kills

> > Thanks for the laugh.

> > To add to @"bravan.3876" explanation (even if as usual he talk about skill...) : **Clearly 5 seasons over 21** in EU where you see more than 5 mes top 50 make every mes carried by builds and insanely op.

>

> Given that there are 9 professions, would you expect to see much more than 5 in the top 50?

>

> "Only 5 in the top 50" doesn't sound like much, until you actually stop and think about it. Having 6 would technically be over-representation.

>

 

Actually this would be incorrect. You're assuming that all classes should be represented in the top 50 at the exact same rate which is never going to be the case due to meta shifts, general role diversity being smaller than class numbers and various amounts of overlap.

 

This is why in general ANet uses a variety of metrics to guide investigations into if a class is over performing, we often hear win rate and division used so I would think there's a primary measures for them. If a class isn't in the top 50 it's not a big deal, small sample size and there will always be a "best pick". If a class isn't in the top 250 then that is more worrying and certainly under/over representation here would indicate something very immediately needs addressing.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> The Teapot VoD was cringe as hell when it comes to Mesmer balance. CmC was not even able to say a single word to the nonsense mess they did to both Mesmer elites. He didn't answer a single question about Mesmer balance and didn't react at all to Teapot saying that Mesmer got kind of butchered (even in WvW only a 2 skill bot). The only Mesmer relevant information was a statement not even directed to Mesmer, that they mainly try to make the one playstyle work they had in mind while creating the spec. That explains why neither Powershatterchrono nor Powermirage get any attention and no one cares when those (more healthy and better designed playstyles) get totally up due to balancing out the main playstyle they see in their (limited) visions. Means they only care for Mirage as a condispam spec, what is ironical because as i descripted the power ambushes are way better designed. Anet doesn't make sense at all when it comes to Mesmer. Because just reworking condi ambushes would have solved all issues from Condimirage way better than the one dodge change and that even without overkilling powerplaystyle as a spin of and without contradicting basic and elite mechanics and deleting skill cieling/tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity and without making the whole spec even more passive and dodgespammy on cd. Just as the IP deletion and the f4 deletion are completely nonsense on Chrono.

 

Ah damn, thanks for the summary - just skimming the forum for news but this is sad to hear. Seems it really was a case of taking the quick and easy way out for both chrono and mirage in terms of IP and endurance respectively, and not looking sounding like some hidden deeper plan for all of it. :(

 

I suppose nice to have more frequent updates, but there goes my confidence/optimism for the process...

[bravan.3876]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > The Teapot VoD was cringe as hell when it comes to Mesmer balance. CmC was not even able to say a single word to the nonsense mess they did to both Mesmer elites. He didn't answer a single question about Mesmer balance and didn't react at all to Teapot saying that Mesmer got kind of butchered (even in WvW only a 2 skill bot). The only Mesmer relevant information was a statement not even directed to Mesmer, that they mainly try to make the one playstyle work they had in mind while creating the spec. That explains why neither Powershatterchrono nor Powermirage get any attention and no one cares when those (more healthy and better designed playstyles) get totally up due to balancing out the main playstyle they see in their (limited) visions. Means they only care for Mirage as a condispam spec, what is ironical because as i descripted the power ambushes are way better designed. Anet doesn't make sense at all when it comes to Mesmer. Because just reworking condi ambushes would have solved all issues from Condimirage way better than the one dodge change and that even without overkilling powerplaystyle as a spin of and without contradicting basic and elite mechanics and deleting skill cieling/tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity and without making the whole spec even more passive and dodgespammy on cd. Just as the IP deletion and the f4 deletion are completely nonsense on Chrono.

>

> Ah kitten, thanks for the summary - just skimming the forum for news but this is sad to hear. Seems it really was a case of taking the quick and easy way out for both chrono and mirage in terms of IP and endurance respectively, and not looking sounding like some hidden deeper plan for all of it. :(

>

> I suppose nice to have more frequent updates, but there goes my confidence/optimism for the process...

 

I mean they are not totally clueless, they just seems to have no clue about Mesmer in particular at all. Also i did not like the limited vision of one specific playstyle they created elites with in mind and mostly care for that one playstyle in the first place when balancing (means they do not care enough for other playstyles when they get rekt as a spin off and with that do not care for build diversity within elites in the first place. I mean, at least when you can balance the main playstyle without killing other playstyles as a spin off you should do it, even when it means a little bit more effort). The trade off agenda ofc also is still an inconsistent mess but he also didn't rly talk about that (except that they will continue with that mess, what is kind of sad to hear and i am afraid for some other elites will get some nonsense trade offs too will delete and contradict mechanics and for that will kill skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity instead solving any balance issue of the elite by its roots. Means all Mesmer hater, who are happy with the nonsense one dodge change take care, your main might be the next).

Most (not all but most) other stuff he said was more or less reasonable in my opinion (like the plan to reduce sustain more soon).

[ArlAlt.1630]

ANet Don't care, all mesmers... quit now. All gluttons for punishment, boarding now...

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Curunen.8729"

I stopped watching about 30min in, CMC put 0 energy into it as I expected. Mechanic responses, to say as least as possible, typical " we lookin into it" we are thinking about it, its something we thought about bla bla bla, nothing usefull whatsoever, and he himself looked like he REALLY didnt want to be there.

On one hand I understand but on another its still disappointing.

Hope is a first step on a road to disappointment.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I wasted a bunch of time seeing the vid and the right word is "wasted".

For anyone that was convinced that cmc was a pvp savior because he used to play ATs and whatnot, perhaps it is a good time to, like Leo said, let go of hope.

 

[Zoser.7245]

Mirage is now relegated to a +1 roamer. Run, combo, run... is more important know how rotate and where, choose the right teammates to help, etc, that the level of skill you have. That is the main reason why Mirage is still played. Due to the mobility in a voice coordinated team and because in some key tournaments class stacking is not allowed. Well, that and the fact that some recognized mesmers will choose mesmer yes or yes even if it's not optimal but they can make it work, like Misha affirmed, i believe. And, obviously, they need to practice in rankeds too even if choose Mirage is not optimal today and can be a burden to your team.

 

If you watch recent Sindrener videos, Misha (Mirage) + Sindrener (Daredevil), together 2vs1, are often not able to shot down a weaver, a core ranger, etc... At least not in time or even give up and find a better target to not lose too much time. About all because the sustain of certain professions is too high and you too weak against them, there are also still some outliners skills that do an insane damage and are too opresive and decisive forcing you to run after its single use, some that can zone even a large area. For that reason is very important to correctly choose which teammate to help each time, must be one that together with you or +2 end in a kill or recovering an objective, but that in ranked is more difficult as the coordination is often null. Is nice to know that developers mentioned that they are going to reduce the sustain. I'm sure that thief will take advantage or benefit of it. But i'm not sure what will happen with Mirage and if devs will change things of Mirage in that matter. We will see... I believe that next tuesday there is a patch. But i unknow if it will include balance changes. I hope that they also don't forget to tune down the ouliners skills.

 

Thief today, even having its weakness, still can take advantage of its superior mobility and you can notice it in each match. But Mirage after each combo when you must to run to the next objective or teamfight is too weak, unless you have your portal somewhere available. After each combo to help and use some defensive resources, you are the target number one to shot down and easily chased without nothing to contest, or avoid being finished, against professions with a better rotations that let them always have better arsenal/skills available. In the past, with the two ambushes available, you could still be a threat in that situation. Today you lack of that option and extra sustain to gain time chaining other skills in between or burst.

 

Lets see what changes are upcoming. But, as some mentioned here, i have no hopes now. Only maybe if the general reduce of sustain also affect us, perhaps, they could consider return the two dodges to compensate if the result of the upcoming changes make us even weaker against others. But who knows. Now waiting for the next patch and see what happens.

[Tayga.3192]

In theory, this is the "best" meta ever because we have

* 3 viable teamfighters (tempest, firebrand, necromancer)

* 3 viable sidenoders (holosmith, ranger, spellbreaker)

* 3 viable roamers (herald, daredevil, mirage)

 

For example scourge/firebrand meta was 2-5-2 respectively (elementalist and mesmer had a role-change in this meta).

In practice though,

* Revenant heavily outperforms other roamers except for portal.

* Holosmith is way stronger than ranger and spellbreaker.

* Necromancer has identity issues because it's half a teamfighter and half a sidenoder. It needs to have its role defined, and how convenient would it be if we had a free role for it. Oh wait, we have one free role. We have the role necromancer has always fulfilled: teamfight dps.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> In theory, this is the "best" meta ever because we have

> * 3 viable teamfighters (tempest, firebrand, necromancer)

> * 3 viable sidenoders (holosmith, ranger, spellbreaker)

> * 3 viable roamers (herald, daredevil, mirage)

>

> For example scourge/firebrand meta was 2-5-2 respectively (elementalist and mesmer had a role-change in this meta).

> In practice though,

> * Revenant heavily outperforms other roamers except for portal.

> * Holosmith is way stronger than ranger and spellbreaker.

> * Necromancer has identity issues because it's half a teamfighter and half a sidenoder. It needs to have its role defined, and how convenient would it be if we had a free role for it. Oh wait, we have one free role. We have the role necromancer has always fulfilled: teamfight dps.

 

Isn't that what reaper is supposed to be? Teamfight melee DPS and it actually does it very well if supported as it has a lot of damage still. What I think really needs looking at is Scourge and shifting it away from node pressure to support with boon removal but tone down what it converts the boons to, like bleeds. I can envision more self sufficient classes running with a scourge with vampiric presence for a little extra sustain, barriers for helping to soak up damage instead of health and the scourge pulling conditions to itself, sending them back to enemies or consuming for life force and weakening the enemy by corrupting boons on enemies to bleeds.

 

Of course this would need to be in a state of the game where traits are a little less bloated so they do 1 thing (except GM "build defining" traits) so you can cut down the clutter and spam.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > yea I think the opposite is true. mesmers are in need of a buff.

>

> No they don't....**mesmers for the first time in 5 years** have to work for their kills...for the past 5 years every average Joe could jump on mesmer and become a duellist god, many with time started to actually believe to be the hottest thing around. Dunno how many times in the past I would duel some clowns and win easy.....only for these living jokes to re-login on their **condi mesmer** and become 1v1 pro like that.

>

> Blur into distortion into stealth into distortion into dodge into stealth into blur again......**a massive uncounterable defensive rotation** that would make even the worst player out there look like a god; all those dodges also come with their perks because...why not?! and so we have clones cannon fodder ....reflection..yup...

>

> 80% of current mesmer population are just some FOTM rerollers who jumped on the class after Hot launch thx to chrono bunker BS, chrono condi burst then PoF mirage etc etc, they never learnt to actually play the class and all its nuances.

>

> You can easily tell the difference between core mesmers from launch and staff clone ambush campers ( vast majority of which just spend their time on the forum asking for buffs), the latter run quickly out of steam and start crying once their "invincible" strategy fails, no more able to let their clones do all the works ( funny the same people then complain about ranger saying how pet does all the dmg..amusing) while they just staff 2/stealth/hide like champs and climb like hell.

>

> No more cocky condi champs running and laughing at you in wvw it seems...**good riddance**

 

I did not play mesmer because it's Fotm. It was my first class. Also mesmer hasn't been an optimal build metabattle for ages. Yeah, mesmers stomp trash players and I've acknowledged that, but outside that, they're not really that great and haven't been since the change in phantasm. At least seemingly so as I missed the time in between them removing phantasms and S4 end when I came back. The class like 6 months ago was maybe working for kills because there were still some plat mesmers. Now it's hot garbage that probably still confuses absolute noobs, but is useless against anything with a head between its shoulders.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Hirosama Nadasaki.6792" said:

> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> They are not targetable, they persist after your target dies. There are there for decoration only. Then, completely change phantasm skills: They have an instant effect (damage, defense, whatever makes sense as replacement) and as a side effect generate a clone.

>

> So basically you wanna rip mesmer's identity. No thanks.

> it' perfectly possible to balance them with the current clone mechanics, the balance team just doesn't want to.

 

I'm not ripping it. They're still used for shatters. I maybe didn't communicate that clearly, but what other class has their class resource vanish between fights? Or has it randomly erased because someone is spamming AOE? It's horrible design. Especially as shatters are supposed to be the main focus, at least that's the rumor I heard after the phantasm change. The class is hot garbage, especially when its resource system is so easily erased for its core mechanic.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Roarshack.4902" said:

> For starters, I am ranked Top 100 in the current season as a condi Mirage.

>

> A lot of what @Arheundel.6451 has merit, lots of players play FOTM because it will carry them and condi mirage pre-patch was a perfect go to choice. Now after the patch, lots of those players are complaining. That being said, the current state of mesmer is far from ideal. Most other classes are simply better, with certain 1v1 match-ups being nearly impossible to win. However, mesmer still shines as +1 class. You can easily jump into a fight to help down players quickly. This meta really forces mesmers to choose their fights carefully, gone are the days of us killing everything with ease. Play to the classes strength and you will be successful, ignore your strengths and you'll die miserably.

>

> I hope to see some buffs, I think IH could still be viable if it were reworked into buffing the Mirage damage with every additional clone instead of having the clone do the damage. The bulk of mesmer/mirage defense comes from being hard to find and pin down, this specifically punishes shatters since the current shatters are lack luster. It should be a better trade off.

>

> Mesmer is far from great, but good players will still make it work and kitten players will always complain.

 

Have you ever considered that you might be better putting all that effort into a class that isn't broken? Skill accounts for some %, but my experience has shown me that when classes are unbalanced, surprise, when both players are equal that the weaker class loses. That's pretty much where I've gone with this. I pick up almost any other class, read some guides, sometimes even do my own crazy stuff and have 10x the effectiveness and way higher win rates. I find it strange you admit the class is broken, and then say that everyone who isn't playing it anymore is just a noob. How do you know that everyone beating you in ranked isn't more of a noob than you are, but just aren't as stubborn about rerolling? Playing a non-broken class is what I would call "practical"

[Roarshack.4902]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Roarshack.4902" said:

> > For starters, I am ranked Top 100 in the current season as a condi Mirage.

> >

> > A lot of what @Arheundel.6451 has merit, lots of players play FOTM because it will carry them and condi mirage pre-patch was a perfect go to choice. Now after the patch, lots of those players are complaining. That being said, the current state of mesmer is far from ideal. Most other classes are simply better, with certain 1v1 match-ups being nearly impossible to win. However, mesmer still shines as +1 class. You can easily jump into a fight to help down players quickly. This meta really forces mesmers to choose their fights carefully, gone are the days of us killing everything with ease. Play to the classes strength and you will be successful, ignore your strengths and you'll die miserably.

> >

> > I hope to see some buffs, I think IH could still be viable if it were reworked into buffing the Mirage damage with every additional clone instead of having the clone do the damage. The bulk of mesmer/mirage defense comes from being hard to find and pin down, this specifically punishes shatters since the current shatters are lack luster. It should be a better trade off.

> >

> > Mesmer is far from great, but good players will still make it work and kitten players will always complain.

>

> Have you ever considered that you might be better putting all that effort into a class that isn't broken? Skill accounts for some %, but my experience has shown me that when classes are unbalanced, surprise, when both players are equal that the weaker class loses. That's pretty much where I've gone with this. I pick up almost any other class, read some guides, sometimes even do my own crazy stuff and have 10x the effectiveness and way higher win rates. I find it strange you admit the class is broken, and then say that everyone who isn't playing it anymore is just a noob. How do you know that everyone beating you in ranked isn't more of a noob than you are, but just aren't as stubborn about rerolling? Playing a non-broken class is what I would call "practical"

 

I enjoy playing mesmer, the play style works for me. The class isnt broken, it just isnt the best. A good mesmer will win fights against worse players consistently, and players of similar skill depending on the class. There will always be a weaker class, and counters to every class. In ranked 5v5 it just boils down to choosing your fights carefully, if done right a mesmer can be very effective.

 

In the end i play what I have fun with, I've been able to make mirage work for me this season. I just view myself as a one-dodge hero. I have tried other classes, they just are not as fun for me even if it does take less work to win.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> We are almost at the point people want mesmer to be . Deleted.

 

Mesmer Profession should be deleted and to be brought back to their Origin identity

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer

 

**'While Mesmers are not known for brute strength, their ability to confuse, distract, and drain the enemy’s resources more than compensates.'**

 


 

-Mesmer Compilation-

 

[Heika.5403]

There are only 5 spots, and unless you are playing in low ranks, those are always filled with the stronger professions/specializations, usually the meta ones and players around your skill level. That is the actual problem for the Mirage, because now you are almost always the weaker one. Those times were Mirage was supposed to be a duelist are gone. You can't now win a 1vs1 against a strong profession unless you are also against a bad player. So, as has been mentioned, you must to be very careful chosing you fights and sadly only to help others as you by yourself can't do nothing now, well capping an empty node if you have time yes... But now, you often watch yourself running away like a scared chicken because you can't win even outplaying others. I would prefer be less hero being a puching bag and play a more balanced game. But who knows if be like that is their vision of what the new Mirage should be.

 

There was several ways to balance Mirage. But what some mistakenly call a trade off (the single dodge), was the hardest nerf possible and not a trade off as that doesn't exist in PvE, of course other changes/nerfs also had impact, together with somethings that passed the filter and still are out there. I can't imagine when they'll balance the sustain, what kind to crazy idea they could apply to nerf the Mirage in terms of sustain... Maybe next week we will have the answer.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Hirosama Nadasaki.6792" said:

> > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > They are not targetable, they persist after your target dies. There are there for decoration only. Then, completely change phantasm skills: They have an instant effect (damage, defense, whatever makes sense as replacement) and as a side effect generate a clone.

> >

> > So basically you wanna rip mesmer's identity. No thanks.

> > it' perfectly possible to balance them with the current clone mechanics, the balance team just doesn't want to.

>

> I'm not ripping it. They're still used for shatters. I maybe didn't communicate that clearly, but what other class has their class resource vanish between fights? Or has it randomly erased because someone is spamming AOE? It's horrible design. Especially as shatters are supposed to be the main focus, at least that's the rumor I heard after the phantasm change. The class is hot garbage, especially when its resource system is so easily erased for its core mechanic.

 

I'm totally for making clones more AoE resistant, but not untargetable decorations. Confusing the enemy by making them chase clones not knowing which mesmer is the real one is the core identity of the class since the game's creation, and was the main draw for me since I first started playing all that way back to this day. Making clones untargetable, static eye-candy completely deletes that. You are ripping it.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > yea I think the opposite is true. mesmers are in need of a buff.

> >

> > No they don't....**mesmers for the first time in 5 years** have to work for their kills...for the past 5 years every average Joe could jump on mesmer and become a duellist god, many with time started to actually believe to be the hottest thing around. Dunno how many times in the past I would duel some clowns and win easy.....only for these living jokes to re-login on their **condi mesmer** and become 1v1 pro like that.

> >

> > Blur into distortion into stealth into distortion into dodge into stealth into blur again......**a massive uncounterable defensive rotation** that would make even the worst player out there look like a god; all those dodges also come with their perks because...why not?! and so we have clones cannon fodder ....reflection..yup...

> >

> > 80% of current mesmer population are just some FOTM rerollers who jumped on the class after Hot launch thx to chrono bunker BS, chrono condi burst then PoF mirage etc etc, they never learnt to actually play the class and all its nuances.

> >

> > You can easily tell the difference between core mesmers from launch and staff clone ambush campers ( vast majority of which just spend their time on the forum asking for buffs), the latter run quickly out of steam and start crying once their "invincible" strategy fails, no more able to let their clones do all the works ( funny the same people then complain about ranger saying how pet does all the dmg..amusing) while they just staff 2/stealth/hide like champs and climb like hell.

> >

> > No more cocky condi champs running and laughing at you in wvw it seems...**good riddance**

>

> I did not play mesmer because it's Fotm. It was my first class. Also mesmer hasn't been an optimal build metabattle for ages. Yeah, mesmers stomp trash players and I've acknowledged that, but outside that, they're not really that great and haven't been since the change in phantasm. At least seemingly so as I missed the time in between them removing phantasms and S4 end when I came back. The class like 6 months ago was maybe working for kills because there were still some plat mesmers. Now it's hot garbage that probably still confuses absolute noobs, but is useless against anything with a head between its shoulders.

 

After taking the salt and the drama away..this is how your post read : " The class now still outperform against new players but will leave average results against more experienced ones "...yeah that's called **balance**, mesmer mains should get used to it, time would be better invested in learning a class post FOTM levels ( even if in theory that should have been done way before jumping on mesmer train )

 

To reiterate what I stated days ago : **80% of current mesmers are FOTM rerollers** who started acting up in pvp and gain relevance after chrono release , they were not around when @"Helseth.5069" (long live the king ) was at his prime , these "mesmers" will now cry their eyes out on the forum asking for a level of buff that will understandably never come.

 

The only way for threads to work would be for **mesmer to reach the same levels of ele in 2013** when the class was so bad for real that the devs found themselves forced **to cancel most of the recently applied nerfs**.

 

Right now mesmer is no more that insta duel win powerhouse , a reality that is here to stay and a reality all these mesmer "main" need to get used to

[Kumouta.4985]

I think the only problematic thing mes(mirage) still has is axe. that wep's way too strong right now. Pistol's pretty strong too but that's nowhere near as pressing as how stupid axe's dmg, cd's and evade is. Haven't seen or been frustrated by power mesmers as of late. Due to the dmg reductions mesmer is otherwise not really OP anymore, i think it's just the axe doing way too much way too well.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Kumouta.4985" said:

> I think the only problematic thing mes(mirage) still has is axe. that wep's way too strong right now. Pistol's pretty strong too but that's nowhere near as pressing as how stupid axe's dmg, cd's and evade is. Haven't seen or been frustrated by power mesmers as of late. Due to the dmg reductions mesmer is otherwise not really OP anymore, i think it's just the axe doing way too much way too well.

 

too much of what? is it the 12s cd evade with a hole in it?

or 2-4k dmg hits ? assuming skills dont bug ofc

[ArlAlt.1630]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > yea I think the opposite is true. mesmers are in need of a buff.

> > >

> > > No they don't....**mesmers for the first time in 5 years** have to work for their kills...for the past 5 years every average Joe could jump on mesmer and become a duellist god, many with time started to actually believe to be the hottest thing around. Dunno how many times in the past I would duel some clowns and win easy.....only for these living jokes to re-login on their **condi mesmer** and become 1v1 pro like that.

> > >

> > > Blur into distortion into stealth into distortion into dodge into stealth into blur again......**a massive uncounterable defensive rotation** that would make even the worst player out there look like a god; all those dodges also come with their perks because...why not?! and so we have clones cannon fodder ....reflection..yup...

> > >

> > > 80% of current mesmer population are just some FOTM rerollers who jumped on the class after Hot launch thx to chrono bunker BS, chrono condi burst then PoF mirage etc etc, they never learnt to actually play the class and all its nuances.

> > >

> > > You can easily tell the difference between core mesmers from launch and staff clone ambush campers ( vast majority of which just spend their time on the forum asking for buffs), the latter run quickly out of steam and start crying once their "invincible" strategy fails, no more able to let their clones do all the works ( funny the same people then complain about ranger saying how pet does all the dmg..amusing) while they just staff 2/stealth/hide like champs and climb like hell.

> > >

> > > No more cocky condi champs running and laughing at you in wvw it seems...**good riddance**

> >

> > I did not play mesmer because it's Fotm. It was my first class. Also mesmer hasn't been an optimal build metabattle for ages. Yeah, mesmers stomp trash players and I've acknowledged that, but outside that, they're not really that great and haven't been since the change in phantasm. At least seemingly so as I missed the time in between them removing phantasms and S4 end when I came back. The class like 6 months ago was maybe working for kills because there were still some plat mesmers. Now it's hot garbage that probably still confuses absolute noobs, but is useless against anything with a head between its shoulders.

>

> After taking the salt and the drama away..this is how your post read : " The class now still outperform against new players but will leave average results against more experienced ones "...yeah that's called **balance**, mesmer mains should get used to it, time would be better invested in learning a class post FOTM levels ( even if in theory that should have been done way before jumping on mesmer train )

>

> To reiterate what I stated days ago : **80% of current mesmers are FOTM rerollers** who started acting up in pvp and gain relevance after chrono release , they were not around when @"Helseth.5069" (long live the king ) was at his prime , these "mesmers" will now cry their eyes out on the forum asking for a level of buff that will understandably never come.

>

> The only way for threads to work would be for **mesmer to reach the same levels of ele in 2013** when the class was so bad for real that the devs found themselves forced **to cancel most of the recently applied nerfs**.

>

> Right now mesmer is no more that insta duel win powerhouse , a reality that is here to stay and a reality all these mesmer "main" need to get used to

 

You know what happens when you assume, right?

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > yea I think the opposite is true. mesmers are in need of a buff.

> > > >

> > > > No they don't....**mesmers for the first time in 5 years** have to work for their kills...for the past 5 years every average Joe could jump on mesmer and become a duellist god, many with time started to actually believe to be the hottest thing around. Dunno how many times in the past I would duel some clowns and win easy.....only for these living jokes to re-login on their **condi mesmer** and become 1v1 pro like that.

> > > >

> > > > Blur into distortion into stealth into distortion into dodge into stealth into blur again......**a massive uncounterable defensive rotation** that would make even the worst player out there look like a god; all those dodges also come with their perks because...why not?! and so we have clones cannon fodder ....reflection..yup...

> > > >

> > > > 80% of current mesmer population are just some FOTM rerollers who jumped on the class after Hot launch thx to chrono bunker BS, chrono condi burst then PoF mirage etc etc, they never learnt to actually play the class and all its nuances.

> > > >

> > > > You can easily tell the difference between core mesmers from launch and staff clone ambush campers ( vast majority of which just spend their time on the forum asking for buffs), the latter run quickly out of steam and start crying once their "invincible" strategy fails, no more able to let their clones do all the works ( funny the same people then complain about ranger saying how pet does all the dmg..amusing) while they just staff 2/stealth/hide like champs and climb like hell.

> > > >

> > > > No more cocky condi champs running and laughing at you in wvw it seems...**good riddance**

> > >

> > > I did not play mesmer because it's Fotm. It was my first class. Also mesmer hasn't been an optimal build metabattle for ages. Yeah, mesmers stomp trash players and I've acknowledged that, but outside that, they're not really that great and haven't been since the change in phantasm. At least seemingly so as I missed the time in between them removing phantasms and S4 end when I came back. The class like 6 months ago was maybe working for kills because there were still some plat mesmers. Now it's hot garbage that probably still confuses absolute noobs, but is useless against anything with a head between its shoulders.

> >

> > After taking the salt and the drama away..this is how your post read : " The class now still outperform against new players but will leave average results against more experienced ones "...yeah that's called **balance**, mesmer mains should get used to it, time would be better invested in learning a class post FOTM levels ( even if in theory that should have been done way before jumping on mesmer train )

> >

> > To reiterate what I stated days ago : **80% of current mesmers are FOTM rerollers** who started acting up in pvp and gain relevance after chrono release , they were not around when @"Helseth.5069" (long live the king ) was at his prime , these "mesmers" will now cry their eyes out on the forum asking for a level of buff that will understandably never come.

> >

> > The only way for threads to work would be for **mesmer to reach the same levels of ele in 2013** when the class was so bad for real that the devs found themselves forced **to cancel most of the recently applied nerfs**.

> >

> > Right now mesmer is no more that insta duel win powerhouse , a reality that is here to stay and a reality all these mesmer "main" need to get used to

>

> You know what happens when you assume, right?

 

I don't assume anything here...I know that many mesmer main are just bitter , now they get to kiss the ground when doing too many mistakes and it's a feeling you now must get used to..a feeling ele players have been knowing for the last 5 years.

Many classes have been described as "duellist"...all of them suffered the same fate..all curb nerfed from stardom to the stalls , then built back somehow bit by bit in another light.

 

The "I win as long as I don't feel asleep on the keyboard"..it's over, now sometimes you win...other you lose , welcome to real life

[ArlAlt.1630]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> 80% of current mesmers are FOTM rerollers who started acting up in pvp and gain relevance after chrono release

 

That is you assuming, don’t try to weasel out of it. Statements like that are nothing more than your opinion, trying to push it onto the masses as fact is just ignorant.