I say keep pushing out harder content.

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > > @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > Forcing content for story has not been a popular idea around here. Also, not everyone likes raid-level content, so players would probably leave.

> > > >

> > > > If Anet's research and data show that there is enough of a demand for additional, instanced, hard content, then they might spend the resources to create it. How would this differ from the existing raids?

> > >

> > > How about....40 MAN story raids!!!

> >

> > You're stretching here, really stretching, they can hardly get players to do 10 man story raids and you want 40...if you want 40 man story raids go find another game that has them, that's not GW2's focus and if it becomes the focus or is introduced you've just sounded the death knell for this game.

>

> I don't think so. I'm pretty sure everyone who's still playing this is going to play the game.

 

I have no issue with the idea of challenging content and a bit of nudging to get people do it, but I think it is near enough guaranteed that if compulsory 40 man story raids were added into the game, it would lose a significant - if not unsalvageable - number of people. Which is why I took your comment as to be not serious earlier, since no one could possibly want that for the game.

 

Raids are an important part and healthy part of the game and should be encouraged. They should not ever be compulsory for the central story. Side stories are a different matter.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"DonArkanio.6419" said:

> Forced content. lol

>

> MMORPGs shifted from being games to being services

>

> This isn't forced content just because you or the so called playerbase thinks it's forced. I agree that ANet most likely has the statistics that show them the playability of said content, but let's not forget that the playerbase changes. And people posting on forums for more challenging content show that there _(maybe)_ starts to be a demand for it.

>

> Nothing forced about that

 

What is being argued by the OP is forced content. Forced raiding to continue with the game's story. If you don't raid, then you do not progress further in the game. That is forced content. Currently, GW2 doesn't have this model and I don't believe that they intend to change to one like that now.

 

As for people posting and asking for more challenging content, that's how raids were brought about in the first place. Now, if the current raid structure is not challenging enough for those players, then certainly they can ask for raids to be made harder. Heck, they're welcome to it! My problem with the suggestion in this thread is forcing all of the player base to endure this harder raid content in order to progress.

[Seera.5916]

Ok, they put your system into place.

 

What happens to older content when most players move on to newer content?

 

How are new players supposed to find 39 others to play that content with them?

 

Solve that problem in such a way that doesn't hurt either new content or old content.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Aridon.8362" said:

> I don't think so. I'm pretty sure everyone who's still playing this is going to play the game.

Considering that most of the players that are left are _not_ interested in raids and raidlike content, i'd say it is extremely unlikely.

I mean, there's not enough players left that are interested in _10-man_ raid content to justify their further development. The amount of people interested in 40-man raids would be even smaller than that.

Forcing people into that content won't make them like it. On the contrary, it is likely to stop them from accessing content locked behind that - and thus, from playing the game at all.

 

[Daddicus.6128]

Heart of Thorns tried something like this, and it almost destroyed the game.

 

NO!

[Aridon.8362]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > I don't think so. I'm pretty sure everyone who's still playing this is going to play the game.

> Considering that most of the players that are left are _not_ interested in raids and raidlike content, i'd say it is extremely unlikely.

> I mean, there's not enough players left that are interested in _10-man_ raid content to justify their further development. The amount of people interested in 40-man raids would be even smaller than that.

> Forcing people into that content won't make them like it. On the contrary, it is likely to stop them from accessing content locked behind that - and thus, from playing the game at all.

>

 

I'm literally in a guild full of people asking to do raid training. Yesterday we went through slothasor where I helped with eating the poison.

[Seera.5916]

> @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > > I don't think so. I'm pretty sure everyone who's still playing this is going to play the game.

> > Considering that most of the players that are left are _not_ interested in raids and raidlike content, i'd say it is extremely unlikely.

> > I mean, there's not enough players left that are interested in _10-man_ raid content to justify their further development. The amount of people interested in 40-man raids would be even smaller than that.

> > Forcing people into that content won't make them like it. On the contrary, it is likely to stop them from accessing content locked behind that - and thus, from playing the game at all.

> >

>

> I'm literally in a guild full of people asking to do raid training. Yesterday we went through slothasor where I helped with eating the poison.

 

You've missed the point.

 

The point is that the desire for large group content is low. Not that it's non-existent.

 

Plus, I highly doubt you're guild is large enough to be a good sample size for raid popularity.

[Aridon.8362]

> @"Seera.5916" said:

> > @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > > > I don't think so. I'm pretty sure everyone who's still playing this is going to play the game.

> > > Considering that most of the players that are left are _not_ interested in raids and raidlike content, i'd say it is extremely unlikely.

> > > I mean, there's not enough players left that are interested in _10-man_ raid content to justify their further development. The amount of people interested in 40-man raids would be even smaller than that.

> > > Forcing people into that content won't make them like it. On the contrary, it is likely to stop them from accessing content locked behind that - and thus, from playing the game at all.

> > >

> >

> > I'm literally in a guild full of people asking to do raid training. Yesterday we went through slothasor where I helped with eating the poison.

>

> You've missed the point.

>

> The point is that the desire for large group content is low. Not that it's non-existent.

>

> Plus, I highly doubt you're guild is large enough to be a good sample size for raid popularity.

 

That's an opinion not a fact, but all opinions are welcome.

 

What about all the people in the aerodome they're just there for no reason right?

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > @"Seera.5916" said:

> > > @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > > > > I don't think so. I'm pretty sure everyone who's still playing this is going to play the game.

> > > > Considering that most of the players that are left are _not_ interested in raids and raidlike content, i'd say it is extremely unlikely.

> > > > I mean, there's not enough players left that are interested in _10-man_ raid content to justify their further development. The amount of people interested in 40-man raids would be even smaller than that.

> > > > Forcing people into that content won't make them like it. On the contrary, it is likely to stop them from accessing content locked behind that - and thus, from playing the game at all.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'm literally in a guild full of people asking to do raid training. Yesterday we went through slothasor where I helped with eating the poison.

> >

> > You've missed the point.

> >

> > The point is that the desire for large group content is low. Not that it's non-existent.

> >

> > Plus, I highly doubt you're guild is large enough to be a good sample size for raid popularity.

>

> That's an opinion not a fact, but all opinions are welcome.

>

> What about all the people in the aerodome they're just there for no reason right?

 

Pretty sure there are statistics somewhere that prove that higher difficulty content only appeals to a small minority of the player base.

I don't have them on hand though.

 

What most Gw2 players do tend agree on though is that Gw2 is a very casual MMO compared to most others.. and that has defined a significant portion of the player base.

Having seen all the demands for story mode raids, complaints that some strikes are too hard to be strikes, hell even some complaining the PvE is too difficult.. seriously, I do believe that far more Gw2 players are put off by the idea of challenging content than those who welcome it.

Accessability I feel will always come before challenge in Gw2 at least in PvE anyway.. because that's the majority audience Gw2 has and will cater too.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Aridon.8362" said:

> That's an opinion not a fact, but all opinions are welcome.

>

> What about all the people in the aerodome they're just there for no reason right?

No, GW2 not having enough players interested in 10-man raid content for devs to justify further development of that content is _not_ an opinion. It's an actual dev statement.

[Etria.3642]

If it did have enough then we would be getting more raids. I wish we had more. But there are a lot of folks who have such low self-esteem that they firmly believe they are not even good enough to do the Grothmar Strike. This game is definitely not something to be locked behind instanced difficult content.

[Zephire.8049]

No. If you want to play a harder game, go play a harder game. Don't make GW2 into something that the vast majority of its playerbase isn't interested in. People would quit if story content was locked behind hard group content, not "realize it's the new norm" and happily accept it.

 

According to GW2 Efficiency, only 6.624% of people who use the site have beaten even the first boss of Wing 7. Yes GW2 Efficiency doesn't count the entire playerbase but considering the more invested players tend to use it, when it comes to raiding it is likely close to being correct. Especially as in one of the past infographs or announcements Anet said only about 10% of players have raided.

 

Also in case you haven't done them, try the Whisper and Boneskinner strikes with pugs and you will see that you'd have effectively cut off the playerbase from the story if you locked the story behind group content on par with raid difficulty. I don't know about you but the moment I have to pay a group just so I can see the story progress is the moment I quit GW2.

 

GW2 is an MMO that has some raids, not an MMO build to revolve around raiding.

[Leo.5829]

Hard Story content is not a good idea. This makes me remember the Eater of Souls Fight in the POF story. My friend stopped playing gw2 because she couldn't beat him. If casual players can't beat the story mode they will just leave the game.

[Aridon.8362]

> @"Leo.5829" said:

> Hard Story content is not a good idea. This makes me remember the Eater of Souls Fight in the POF story. My friend stopped playing gw2 because she couldn't beat him. If casual players can't beat the story mode they will just leave the game.

 

You could just be an actual friend and help her if you actually cared about her existence in game. Just saying.

[Raknar.4735]

> @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > @"Leo.5829" said:

> > Hard Story content is not a good idea. This makes me remember the Eater of Souls Fight in the POF story. My friend stopped playing gw2 because she couldn't beat him. If casual players can't beat the story mode they will just leave the game.

>

> You could just be an actual friend and help her if you actually cared about her existence in game. Just saying.

 

Didn't know actual friends force people to do content they don't like. Just saying.

[Raknar.4735]

> @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > > > @"Leo.5829" said:

> > > > Hard Story content is not a good idea. This makes me remember the Eater of Souls Fight in the POF story. My friend stopped playing gw2 because she couldn't beat him. If casual players can't beat the story mode they will just leave the game.

> > >

> > > You could just be an actual friend and help her if you actually cared about her existence in game. Just saying.

> >

> > Didn't know actual friends force people to do content they don't like. Just saying.

>

> Man you are so negative.

 

I may be negative, but at least I don't criticize someone elses friendship and call it "not an actual friendship". That's a jerk thing to do.

[Leo.5829]

Oh i did join her but I couldn't really help i didn't have my usual skills. I was transformed into a wierd thingy and was pretty much useless.

[yann.1946]

I don't think that's a good idea. Their is place for story in difficult content. And their is place for difficult content in story achievements.

 

But locking the main story behind raids is a bad idea

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > @"Leo.5829" said:

> > Hard Story content is not a good idea. This makes me remember the Eater of Souls Fight in the POF story. My friend stopped playing gw2 because she couldn't beat him. If casual players can't beat the story mode they will just leave the game.

>

> You could just be an actual friend and help her if you actually cared about her existence in game. Just saying.

You don't know how that fight looks, do you? It's practically a solo instance, even if you group with other players, they will get changed into wisps of light that have no practical impact on the fight at all.

 

[keenedge.9675]

After Tyria (core) they did push out harder content with HoT. So many complained. I stayed on Tyria because it was too harsh for me. Then after they finally fixed the HoT/client bugs I finally pushed myself to play better and learn to wander solo on HoT maps like I enjoy doing in Tyria. I like the challenges of HoT now overall. The map nav on TD is not fun, I haven't learned it well enough yet.

 

With PoF they dialed back the difficulty in the 'starter' area and slightly reduced the abuse some of the single monsters would dish out ( points at mushroom King ). The follow-on maps to PoF are also nicely balanced and also require more situational awareness like HoT added to the game. Plus PoF was less dependent on map population by having smaller metas and bounties.

 

They are adding challenge to the game with each expansion. I hope it continues. But they can't go too far because casuals still need to be able to succeed even if it requires grouping. Sorta like the step taken with introducing Strikes. Sorta like bounties but not open-world. Strikes still carry the stigma of Raids for me.

 

I don't like my relax time dependent on herding cats into a cohesive group so I purposely avoid bound groups. I would like to see them add story-mode raids and strikes for the laid back to enjoy the artwork and story.

[Aridon.8362]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > > @"Leo.5829" said:

> > > Hard Story content is not a good idea. This makes me remember the Eater of Souls Fight in the POF story. My friend stopped playing gw2 because she couldn't beat him. If casual players can't beat the story mode they will just leave the game.

> >

> > You could just be an actual friend and help her if you actually cared about her existence in game. Just saying.

> You don't know how that fight looks, do you? It's practically a solo instance, even if you group with other players, they will get changed into wisps of light that have no practical impact on the fight at all.

>

 

I mean I soloed everything so no not really. I just used my dodge rolls and cheesed my way through the story.

[kharmin.7683]

It's like you want to put moguls on the bunny slope instead of moving on the the actual double-black diamond slopes.

[thepenmonster.3621]

> @"keenedge.9675" said:

> After Tyria (core) they did push out harder content with HoT.

 

You know how you can tell the difference between a vet in the jungle and a new player? The vet avoids rolling devils like they have Covid 19. The new player is repairing their armor back at the WP.

 

Having the harder content available is a good idea, but the reward must justify the effort if the casual player is to play it. Vets don't take on rolling devils because the rewards aren't worth the effort they require. As you can tell by a lot of comments some folks enjoy the Big e-Peen aspect of being able to put out thousands of points of damage per second but the numbers show that bragging rights aren't enough of a reward for most. The in-game rewards for harder content are also better objectively speaking but they're still failing to draw. I suspect that as time goes on Strikes will be joining the rolling devils as things vets don't bother with because of the effort vs reward calculation.

 

Open world metas and boss fights get high population because the effort matches the loot. Same goes for SW, Octo, and DF. (Though I'd say Octo is a bit _too_ easy for the loot if you have a half competent commander on the horn)

 

Right now Anet are obviously throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks as far as getting their majority of players into the harder stuff. Locking Almora's story behind that pseudo raid/ strike is just another attempt. Is the effort of seeing her story worth the effort of everyone fighting over the tank? No idea. Only Anet knows the metrics. I don't like it and if any core story step goes behind that sort of wall in the future I'll just catch it on YouTube.

[Kathkere.3068]

Read through the entire thread because I found the OP's fervent defense kind of charming. That said, I'm also in the "locking story behind raids is a bad idea"-camp.

 

However, I'd like to offer a different perspective. "Story" in MMOs is something that has been handled poorly ever since BioWare started touting about their fourth pillar in their MMORPG: Star Wars the Old Republic. While SWTOR largely failed as an MMORPG, it did have an impact on future games within the genre. A personal, single player story became important, even though it violates the key tenets of what an MMORPG is supposed to be. I appreciated the story in Guild Wars 2, but when I look back at my levelling experience in the beginning of 2013, it's not really the story I recall. It's the memories of exploring the world alongside one of my best friends; finding jump puzzles and learing about one another's classes, meeting strange creatures and just... learning the game! _That's_ the personal story an MMO, not the pre-written story that can never truly be yours.

 

Going back to SWTOR; I think they did raiding best when the game launched. You had two raids; one where you went to a prison planet to fight an ancient, dangerous being and another one where you fight against a rogue hutt. Both raids were very much part of the story, but in the grand scheme of things they were rather minor events. The narrative context for the first raid was that the Empire and Republic wanted to secure technology to prevent the other faction from getting it. However, it did not take long for SWTOR to walk into the trap of making raids super-relevant. All of a sudden, the raid content became _the_ content that all other content started to revolve around. There's this misconception that bigger = better, and that couldn't be more false, in my opinion. Modern game writers seem to think that the only way to make a narrative interesting is to include some sort of doomsday plot.

 

Story shouldn't revolve around raiding. Story shouldn't really happen in personal instances separate from the rest of all the players either, in my opinion, but that's not likely to change in this game. No, story should happen in the world and raids ought to complement it. Having cutscenes and dialogues in raids is a sin. It may be interesting the first time around, but raids are designed to be repeatable content. As such, focus should lie on the narrative design of the raid's environment and the bosses within. No dialogue should be necessary, outside of boss barks. The main appeal of killing a raid boss should not be to experience a cutscene or other story beat; no, the main appeal should be to defeat the end boss.

 

I'll end with one last anecdote:

I started playing WoW at the start of their first expansion, The Burning Crusade. I was rather late to the raiding scene, but I didn't want to join a guild that was already farming Black Temple and Hyjal Summit (the end raids). I wanted to start from the first raid of the expansion! So I joined an up and coming guild and we progressed together. We did manage to beat Hyjal Summit, but we never defeated Illidan (the last boss of Black Temple). I still remember our very last attempt, the night before Wrath of the Lich King was released. We got close, but we failed. For the moment we felt kinda bad about it, but in hindsight I feel rather proud that we managed to get that far at all. In contrast, I joined the raiding scene late in Mists of Pandaria (4th expansion) as well. I did Siege of Orgrimmar via the Looking for Raid tool and I beat Garrosh and got to see the "epic" cutscene at the end... and I felt nothing. It meant absolutely nothing to me that I managed to beat Garrosh. When I later beat him on a more difficult mode, I didn't really feel anything either. So in that respect, I'm 100% with the OP in the sense that some content ought to remain hard for the sake of being hard. If that's not everyone's biscuit, then that's fine. I've not really been all that into raiding since WoW Cataclysm (2011), truth be told, but I still play MMORPGs.

[Aridon.8362]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> It's like you want to put moguls on the bunny slope instead of moving on the the actual double-black diamond slopes.

 

Actually the other way around, BUT I LOVE THIS! TOSS THEM INTO THE DIAMOND SLOPES! :lol: