Reasons to balance for top Tier only

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > what does it even mean to balance for top players lol? I sorta have half a grasp but not really.

>

> you create character that is uber hard to play to the point where general population is incapable of even reaching 45% winrate with it, but if piloted near perfectly its overpowered, in that scenarion you can leave it as be, its bad for average joe, really bad for bad timmy, and op for henry the pro.

> you can nerf it to the point of unplayability for timmy, make it garbage for joe while making it balanced for henry.

> Or you can buff it so its balanced for joe, ok for timmy and utterly broken for henry.

> The closes thing I can give you RN would be mesmer RN, its kitten for average player, its super kitten for bad player but the best player could make it work due to portal.

 

hmm that makes sense, thanks. so would you say having only 1-2 mechanics/ skills/ traits is the only way to do it, or can you think of others?

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > what does it even mean to balance for top players lol? I sorta have half a grasp but not really.

> >

> > you create character that is uber hard to play to the point where general population is incapable of even reaching 45% winrate with it, but if piloted near perfectly its overpowered, in that scenarion you can leave it as be, its bad for average joe, really bad for bad timmy, and op for henry the pro.

> > you can nerf it to the point of unplayability for timmy, make it garbage for joe while making it balanced for henry.

> > Or you can buff it so its balanced for joe, ok for timmy and utterly broken for henry.

> > The closes thing I can give you RN would be mesmer RN, its kitten for average player, its super kitten for bad player but the best player could make it work due to portal.

>

> hmm that makes sense, thanks. so would you say having only 1-2 mechanics/ skills/ traits is the only way to do it, or can you think of others?

 

there is SOO many ways this can be in the game, whats harder to play, necro with 100k HP that survives everything by existing or thief that has 40 dodges but if you fail to dodge you die? necro = easy, thief = medicore, but if played perfectly necro will get rolled by 5 people while thief will dodge every single attack and never die

Mobility can be another example, you can be usain bolt , and run super fast but average joe doesnt know where he needs to bo, so potential of his mobility is wasted.

You have abilities like daze mantra, can you immagine silver player making value with that ability? list can go on and on.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > what does it even mean to balance for top players lol? I sorta have half a grasp but not really.

> > >

> > > you create character that is uber hard to play to the point where general population is incapable of even reaching 45% winrate with it, but if piloted near perfectly its overpowered, in that scenarion you can leave it as be, its bad for average joe, really bad for bad timmy, and op for henry the pro.

> > > you can nerf it to the point of unplayability for timmy, make it garbage for joe while making it balanced for henry.

> > > Or you can buff it so its balanced for joe, ok for timmy and utterly broken for henry.

> > > The closes thing I can give you RN would be mesmer RN, its kitten for average player, its super kitten for bad player but the best player could make it work due to portal.

> >

> > hmm that makes sense, thanks. so would you say having only 1-2 mechanics/ skills/ traits is the only way to do it, or can you think of others?

>

> there is SOO many ways this can be in the game, whats harder to play, necro with 100k HP that survives everything by existing or thief that has 40 dodges but if you fail to dodge you die? necro = easy, thief = medicore, but if played perfectly necro will get rolled by 5 people while thief will dodge every single attack and never die

> Mobility can be another example, you can be usain bolt , and run super fast but average joe doesnt know where he needs to bo, so potential of his mobility is wasted.

> You have abilities like daze mantra, can you immagine silver player making value with that ability? list can go on and on.

 

not sure why I didn't make this connection before. cheers.

[bravan.3876]

Aside from the normal bias all players have more or less and the danger to create a meta fits for your own mAT team members the most: At least 50% need to be perma banned for wintrading, PvP reward trading and account sharing and not asked by Anet devs about balance.

 

In general Anet should not listen more or less to any specific kind of player. Hear all, get food for thoughts, compare different opinions (while put them into contexts of who is saying that and why, like put class bias, skill bias, teamcomp bias, iq limitations, lack in game/class knowledge and understanding etc. into account) but only listen to logic and facts based on game knowledge and understanding. Listen to a specific kind of player only is always a limitation and high danger for bias and selfish influences from specific ppl.

 

Just hypothetically ofc but: When i imagine that balance could be influenced by ppl who trade for example PvP titles for PvE achievement hunters from another reagion, just because that player is (pure hypothetically ofc) friend with some devs, then there would be no hope. Nepotism most likely doesn't lead into something positive.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

Problem with trying to balance for lower skilled players is that the game devolves into spam, because nothing really matters, just spam skills and something will work. The reason you balance off of the upper tiers is they know the classes and know the skills and their counters as well as play styles, in the lower tiers many people don't even have a good build and don't know what their own class can do, no less the opponent. So fights from those lower tiers, the outcomes are RNG, you can have someone on a well made meta build and someone on a random trait build and have the player on the meta build lose when they have the advantage (because they just don't know the skills they have on hand). This is why you don't balance off of lower skilled players, the win/loss often have nothing to do with a build, no less a single OP skill.

 

However, the opposite happens at the higher levels, two people fighting and the one with a OP/broken build almost always wins, but you swap the player and builds and now the other player wins all the time. Both understand the builds, both know the counters etc etc, however the build it self is over performing. Now, there will almost always be something that is over performing....but by how much? Some are small, and yes offer an advantage, but can still be beat with the right effort, then you have the over performing builds that are just oppressive vs most other builds.

 

As for people talking about higher tier players in lower matchups, even if balanced for the lower tier, that means more OP skills, as that skilled player is going to know what to expect from others, and how those OP skills work and how to best abuse it in a build, so they are going to steamroll everyone. Now, if things are balanced off of the higher tiers, that higher skilled player is still going to steamroll everyone in the low rank matchup, as the skill delta is going to be big enough that every fight they get in, the other side is going to consider it OP.....They wont be able to tell you why, or even give a single skill as an example, but they will swear up and down it's OP, however you put them on that same build and they will still lose the fight.

 

Progression and improvement are also reasons to play a game. When this is taken away, people get bored, as this is a competitive mode after all, if you don't want to learn or get better, go do PvE. The mindset that you just give everyone a gold star, I never understood.

[Fantasylife.7981]

they havent even done that. Necro is one of the strongest classes and is the easiest to play.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Lets invent two hypothetical Silver III ranked players: Theefx18 and WaryorXXX.

 

WaryorXXX mains warrior and thinks that thieves are overpowered because he can't catch them. He is making the mistake of not understanding that his role is to side node, and as long as he keeps his node from being decapped by the thief he is actually winning. Instead he chases the thief after they shadowstep, the thief immediately steps back and takes his node, and WaryorXXX now demands thief mobility be nerfed.

 

Theefx18 mains thief and thinks warriors are overpowered because he always loses 1v1 to them. Theefx18 does not understand that thief is a roamer/+1er, and does not have shortbow equipped nor does he even have a single mobility utility skill on his bar. He is also specced into a PvE critical strikes build, and keeps trying to 1v1 people playing meta Dagger/Shield/Greatsword spellbreaker with his PvE build. Theefx18 keeps getting run down and killed by warriors, and now demands that warrior mobility and damage and basically everything be nerfed.

 

Do you see the problem with balancing for low tiers? Both WaryorXXX and Theefx18 are making misplays that if accounted for would require totally opposing balance decisions, and it is thus impossible to pander to one of their balance desires without either making things worse for the other or totally gutting both classes to the ground. The main reason to balance for higher tier play is because balance issues that only exist in low tier play are not actually balance issues, but issues of players making mistakes. And since players in low tiers don't all make the *same* mistakes, this means devs would have to pick and choose which mistakes they pander to.

 

Pandering is not balance.

 

[choovanski.5462]

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> Problem with trying to balance for lower skilled players is that the game devolves into spam, because nothing really matters, just spam skills and something will work. The reason you balance off of the upper tiers is they know the classes and know the skills and their counters as well as play styles, in the lower tiers many people don't even have a good build and don't know what their own class can do, no less the opponent. So fights from those lower tiers, the outcomes are RNG, you can have someone on a well made meta build and someone on a random trait build and have the player on the meta build lose when they have the advantage (because they just don't know the skills they have on hand). This is why you don't balance off of lower skilled players, the win/loss often have nothing to do with a build, no less a single OP skill.

>

> However, the opposite happens at the higher levels, two people fighting and the one with a OP/broken build almost always wins, but you swap the player and builds and now the other player wins all the time. Both understand the builds, both know the counters etc etc, however the build it self is over performing. Now, there will almost always be something that is over performing....but by how much? Some are small, and yes offer an advantage, but can still be beat with the right effort, then you have the over performing builds that are just oppressive vs most other builds.

>

> As for people talking about higher tier players in lower matchups, even if balanced for the lower tier, that means more OP skills, as that skilled player is going to know what to expect from others, and how those OP skills work and how to best abuse it in a build, so they are going to steamroll everyone. Now, if things are balanced off of the higher tiers, that higher skilled player is still going to steamroll everyone in the low rank matchup, as the skill delta is going to be big enough that every fight they get in, the other side is going to consider it OP.....They wont be able to tell you why, or even give a single skill as an example, but they will swear up and down it's OP, however you put them on that same build and they will still lose the fight.

>

> Progression and improvement are also reasons to play a game. When this is taken away, people get bored, as this is a competitive mode after all, if you don't want to learn or get better, go do PvE. The mindset that you just give everyone a gold star, I never understood.

 

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> Lets invent two hypothetical Silver III ranked players: Theefx18 and WaryorXXX.

>

> WaryorXXX mains warrior and thinks that thieves are overpowered because he can't catch them. He is making the mistake of not understanding that his role is to side node, and as long as he keeps his node from being decapped by the thief he is actually winning. Instead he chases the thief after they shadowstep, the thief immediately steps back and takes his node, and WaryorXXX now demands thief mobility be nerfed.

>

> Theefx18 mains thief and thinks warriors are overpowered because he always loses 1v1 to them. Theefx18 does not understand that thief is a roamer/+1er, and does not have shortbow equipped nor does he even have a single mobility utility skill on his bar. He is also specced into a PvE critical strikes build, and keeps trying to 1v1 people playing meta Dagger/Shield/Greatsword spellbreaker with his PvE build. Theefx18 keeps getting run down and killed by warriors, and now demands that warrior mobility and damage and basically everything be nerfed.

>

> Do you see the problem with balancing for low tiers? Both WaryorXXX and Theefx18 are making misplays that if accounted for would require totally opposing balance decisions, and it is thus impossible to pander to one of their balance desires without either making things worse for the other or totally gutting both classes to the ground. The main reason to balance for higher tier play is because balance issues that only exist in low tier play are not actually balance issues, but issues of players making mistakes. And since players in low tiers don't all make the *same* mistakes, this means devs would have to pick and choose which mistakes they pander to.

>

> Pandering is not balance.

>

 

#thread

 

we done here. if you can't understand why you gotta balance around high tier from these two excellent posts, idk what to say

[apharma.3741]

You balance for both but you use your brain to decide if an argument has merit, usually backing it up by data collected by the various systems in place.

 

Everyone is fond of extreme examples like the one Master Ketsu made up but there's a vast spectrum of skill between a guy that is a wilfully ignorant cry baby, someone who is in their 50s who simply doesn't have the reaction time of 16 yr olds and a class main who's played every weapon combo, utility and trait type in most combinations across 7 years.

 

Just because something isn't strong in high tier play it doesn't mean it should stick around if it's stomping everyone in an oppressive way below the top 250 players or if it has a strong effect with no opportunity/cost at all and no counter play outside of "just preemptive dodge 4Head".

 

We're also ignoring how incredibly biased a lot of "top players" actually are or how they don't articulate their advise particularly well, either because they are ESL or simply lack the maturity to give actionable feedback. That is of course without mentioning "top player" is a very loose definition, I would say there's almost none left anymore and even the current set are more like rusty knives than sharpened swords.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> You balance for both but you use your brain to decide if an argument has merit, usually backing it up by data collected by the various systems in place.

>

> Everyone is fond of extreme examples like the one Master Ketsu made up but there's a vast spectrum of skill between a guy that is a wilfully ignorant cry baby, someone who is in their 50s who simply doesn't have the reaction time of 16 yr olds and a class main who's played every weapon combo, utility and trait type in most combinations across 7 years.

>

> Just because something isn't strong in high tier play it doesn't mean it should stick around if it's stomping everyone in an oppressive way below the top 250 players or if it has a strong effect with no opportunity/cost at all and no counter play outside of "just preemptive dodge 4Head".

>

> We're also ignoring how incredibly biased a lot of "top players" actually are or how they don't articulate their advise particularly well, either because they are ESL or simply lack the maturity to give actionable feedback. That is of course without mentioning "top player" is a very loose definition, I would say there's almost none left anymore and even the current set are more like rusty knives than sharpened swords.

 

This^ the idea that players of top tier should carry the most weight as far as balance ideas go has merit for sure but these players not only have a thorough knowledge of the game mechanics but also the physical mechanical skill that when combined lends them in the top ranks but what about people who have that same knowledge of the games mechanics but not the physical skill to be a top player ie the reaction times etc? Of course these people would have to consider their own limited capabilities but at same time maybe a player has played longer than another and knows the mechanics in and out but another player is better mechanically on the kb/mouse and has slightly less knowledge but ends up in better positions due to being physically better at the physical part of gaming.

This is why top players input should be regarded as valuable but not the end all be all and more thought and considering needs to be implemented than just that.

[Spartacus.3192]

> @"Poledra Val.1490" said:

> The problem is Anet will always cater towards the majority, maybe in pvp terms they could cater to the top 250-500+ players in pvp but in truth its a miniscule amount of people when you consider the big picture of how many people in actuality play pvp currently.

>

> Here is the bottom line, Anet's aim as well as giving content is without a doubt to make money and it will aim to please the majority to bring in revenue. Hence the balance will almost always cater towards the casual ppv'er.

 

^ The ONLY comment in this thread that's worth reading to understand why ANET will NEVER balance based on top 1% etc.

 

Especially since GW2 is not in Esports league and hasnt been for years.

[Ganathar.4956]

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> Problem with trying to balance for lower skilled players is that the game devolves into spam, because nothing really matters, just spam skills and something will work. The reason you balance off of the upper tiers is they know the classes and know the skills and their counters as well as play styles, in the lower tiers many people don't even have a good build and don't know what their own class can do, no less the opponent. So fights from those lower tiers, the outcomes are RNG, you can have someone on a well made meta build and someone on a random trait build and have the player on the meta build lose when they have the advantage (because they just don't know the skills they have on hand). This is why you don't balance off of lower skilled players, the win/loss often have nothing to do with a build, no less a single OP skill.

>

> However, the opposite happens at the higher levels, two people fighting and the one with a OP/broken build almost always wins, but you swap the player and builds and now the other player wins all the time. Both understand the builds, both know the counters etc etc, however the build it self is over performing. Now, there will almost always be something that is over performing....but by how much? Some are small, and yes offer an advantage, but can still be beat with the right effort, then you have the over performing builds that are just oppressive vs most other builds.

>

> As for people talking about higher tier players in lower matchups, even if balanced for the lower tier, that means more OP skills, as that skilled player is going to know what to expect from others, and how those OP skills work and how to best abuse it in a build, so they are going to steamroll everyone. Now, if things are balanced off of the higher tiers, that higher skilled player is still going to steamroll everyone in the low rank matchup, as the skill delta is going to be big enough that every fight they get in, the other side is going to consider it OP.....They wont be able to tell you why, or even give a single skill as an example, but they will swear up and down it's OP, however you put them on that same build and they will still lose the fight.

>

> Progression and improvement are also reasons to play a game. When this is taken away, people get bored, as this is a competitive mode after all, if you don't want to learn or get better, go do PvE. The mindset that you just give everyone a gold star, I never understood.

 

Actually in my opinion spam builds are a result of balancing for top tier players and not low tier, so the complete opposite of what you are saying. Why is that? It's because they are generally ineffective against you once you get good, but they crush lower skilled players. You can have a low skill player defeating a player who is a little more skilled quite handily with the correct spam build. That is obviously not a fun experience for the loser and results in huge imbalance in the lower tiers with certain classes/builds dominating everything, while top tiers are completely unaffected.

 

Balancing for low tiers involves actually removing this sort of gameplay, even though it poses no problems to top players. After all, you cannot argue for nerfs to these builds from a top tier perspective, because many of them fall off hard as you get more skilled.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > Problem with trying to balance for lower skilled players is that the game devolves into spam, because nothing really matters, just spam skills and something will work. The reason you balance off of the upper tiers is they know the classes and know the skills and their counters as well as play styles, in the lower tiers many people don't even have a good build and don't know what their own class can do, no less the opponent. So fights from those lower tiers, the outcomes are RNG, you can have someone on a well made meta build and someone on a random trait build and have the player on the meta build lose when they have the advantage (because they just don't know the skills they have on hand). This is why you don't balance off of lower skilled players, the win/loss often have nothing to do with a build, no less a single OP skill.

> >

> > However, the opposite happens at the higher levels, two people fighting and the one with a OP/broken build almost always wins, but you swap the player and builds and now the other player wins all the time. Both understand the builds, both know the counters etc etc, however the build it self is over performing. Now, there will almost always be something that is over performing....but by how much? Some are small, and yes offer an advantage, but can still be beat with the right effort, then you have the over performing builds that are just oppressive vs most other builds.

> >

> > As for people talking about higher tier players in lower matchups, even if balanced for the lower tier, that means more OP skills, as that skilled player is going to know what to expect from others, and how those OP skills work and how to best abuse it in a build, so they are going to steamroll everyone. Now, if things are balanced off of the higher tiers, that higher skilled player is still going to steamroll everyone in the low rank matchup, as the skill delta is going to be big enough that every fight they get in, the other side is going to consider it OP.....They wont be able to tell you why, or even give a single skill as an example, but they will swear up and down it's OP, however you put them on that same build and they will still lose the fight.

> >

> > Progression and improvement are also reasons to play a game. When this is taken away, people get bored, as this is a competitive mode after all, if you don't want to learn or get better, go do PvE. The mindset that you just give everyone a gold star, I never understood.

>

> Actually in my opinion spam builds are a result of balancing for top tier players and not low tier, so the complete opposite of what you are saying. Why is that? It's because they are generally ineffective against you once you get good, but they crush lower skilled players. You can have a low skill player defeating a player who is a little more skilled quite handily with the correct spam build. That is obviously not a fun experience for the loser and results in huge imbalance in the lower tiers with certain classes/builds dominating everything, while top tiers are completely unaffected.

>

> Balancing for low tiers involves actually removing this sort of gameplay, even though it poses no problems to top players. After all, you cannot argue for nerfs to these builds from a top tier perspective, because many of them fall off hard as you get more skilled.

 

How is your situation a result of balancing for top tier? It's not.

 

People make the incorrect assumption that it is the build in this situation, and it is not, you even explained that it does not effect higher skilled players, the reason it is "OP" to some in lower ranks is because of the player and not the build. Spam will always exist in low ranks, it's all they know how to do, they don't understand sometimes you have to wait and hold/plan skill use and counters. You will always see this in lower ranks.

[megilandil.7506]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > Problem with trying to balance for lower skilled players is that the game devolves into spam, because nothing really matters, just spam skills and something will work. The reason you balance off of the upper tiers is they know the classes and know the skills and their counters as well as play styles, in the lower tiers many people don't even have a good build and don't know what their own class can do, no less the opponent. So fights from those lower tiers, the outcomes are RNG, you can have someone on a well made meta build and someone on a random trait build and have the player on the meta build lose when they have the advantage (because they just don't know the skills they have on hand). This is why you don't balance off of lower skilled players, the win/loss often have nothing to do with a build, no less a single OP skill.

> >

> > However, the opposite happens at the higher levels, two people fighting and the one with a OP/broken build almost always wins, but you swap the player and builds and now the other player wins all the time. Both understand the builds, both know the counters etc etc, however the build it self is over performing. Now, there will almost always be something that is over performing....but by how much? Some are small, and yes offer an advantage, but can still be beat with the right effort, then you have the over performing builds that are just oppressive vs most other builds.

> >

> > As for people talking about higher tier players in lower matchups, even if balanced for the lower tier, that means more OP skills, as that skilled player is going to know what to expect from others, and how those OP skills work and how to best abuse it in a build, so they are going to steamroll everyone. Now, if things are balanced off of the higher tiers, that higher skilled player is still going to steamroll everyone in the low rank matchup, as the skill delta is going to be big enough that every fight they get in, the other side is going to consider it OP.....They wont be able to tell you why, or even give a single skill as an example, but they will swear up and down it's OP, however you put them on that same build and they will still lose the fight.

> >

> > Progression and improvement are also reasons to play a game. When this is taken away, people get bored, as this is a competitive mode after all, if you don't want to learn or get better, go do PvE. The mindset that you just give everyone a gold star, I never understood.

>

> Actually in my opinion spam builds are a result of balancing for top tier players and not low tier, so the complete opposite of what you are saying. Why is that? It's because they are generally ineffective against you once you get good, but they crush lower skilled players. You can have a low skill player defeating a player who is a little more skilled quite handily with the correct spam build. That is obviously not a fun experience for the loser and results in huge imbalance in the lower tiers with certain classes/builds dominating everything, while top tiers are completely unaffected.

>

> Balancing for low tiers involves actually removing this sort of gameplay, even though it poses no problems to top players. After all, you cannot argue for nerfs to these builds from a top tier perspective, because many of them fall off hard as you get more skilled.

 

they have to take consideration of the 3 tiers because if not that makes thinks like the anterior iterations of mirage exist, in low and low-mid tiers because of the incredible amount of eframes, invulns, breacktarget and shufle with clones that their kit packs during a long time spaming on cd skil in mirage are equal to play god mode and only geting killed for walking in random aoes, and worse, make the class super efective for bot scrips that copied the recomended rotations to use and executed it with exact timing every time

[Luthan.5236]

It's true that balancing for the top tier players makes sense. Lower tiered players that feel another class is too strong could just get stronger themselves. Then again in the lower tier the other lower tiered player might play weaker as well. On that lower level just different builds/classes might be stronger. (Cause it is easier to play them. Which does not matter at top level cause top level players master just everything at 100 percent efficiency.)

 

Now we have still the complaints about certain strong classes/builds being together in one team while the other team does not have anyone of these.

I made a post in page 1 of this thread and wanted to hint at this:

 

It is a team game. If not all classes are balanced strong in 1 vs. 1 against each other class ... then depending on the team combination we might still get complaints.

What if 2 classes work good together in combination? (Then you might need more than just looknig at the 1 vs. 1 strenght.)

 

The thief someone mentioned above with the mobility (and warrior chasing after him) is a different thing. Not only about combat but it also takes the mechanics (conquest) into account.

 

Seems pretty hard to make it perfectly balanced. There'll always be something to find you couild complain about. As long as people can make their own teams (allow team queue!) at least you could make sure you have an own with a good combination. Most complaints I see are like "omg again 2 necro, firebrand, whatever in enemy team". I guess if 2 were in the own team as well ... it would feel more balanced already.

 

Imo a lot of different builds should be viable. For lower (mid) tier players that might start playing and trying to find their "own style" wanting to play certain stuff that is fun. I'm not saying every possible build should be viable. (With viable I don't mean it has to be "META" ... should be good to play and not totally crap.) But I think it could be a problem it some type of skills was totally useless. Turrets for engineer are a type of skills that many dislike here. Though at low tier I sometimes see builds that use 1 or 2 turrets and I remember some ... I think rifle ... having low CD on toolbelt skill. Guardians the spirit weapons I see barely used though.

 

Maybe it should be balanced so at least 1-2 of each skill type (with type I mean "signets", "spirit weapons'", etc.) are viable for each profession. They can do the balancing with keeping top tier players in mind. (Balancing it so they might use those skills.)

[Inguz.6493]

Balancing around lower tiers could mean lots of things. For example, dragon hunters trap. It's really a noob trap and is tricky to get out of but deals so much damage if you don't manage it, but the DH himself is mediocre without it. Nerfing the trap and placing more power on the hero would be a welcome change to a one-trick in lower tiers, but won't be relevant for top tier.

[Avatar.3568]

In low tier you can actually play everything (it should make at least any sense)

 

My friend plays a full glasscanon staff tempest at gold 2 (EU)

And to everything that kills him, he says "this is so op and unfair", but at the same time some people flame him to play op things

 

Both have no clue about OP and balance, but both looks in any point viable for their league

 

Idk what I want to say with this