Tempest should get a real trade off

[steki.1478]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > Half of the traits are focused on overloads so if you just choose not to use overloads, you're pretty much wasting the whole spec while not gaining much.

>

> Taking soulbeast without using the merge mechanic also was a waste of the spec, they still went with the removal of the in combat pet swap as a trade off.

 

Using overload still doubles your attunement cooldown, but nothing stops you from using your pet F skills, merging and using your own F skills then. Without tradeoff you could do that on both pets which is quite imbalanced compared to tempest. That's equivalent of overloading not affecting your cooldowns at all, yet they do since HoT.

[Jski.6180]

He has a point but comply miss that tempest brings nothing new to the effects of the ele class like other elite spec do. There no new boons aura even condis that tempest adds to the ele class. In a way its a +1 to ele core for support and melee but is a -1 to dmg BUT due to the lack of any new effects its all lost for a use.

 

If you add in a real trade off for tempest your simply making it a -1 from ele core having the opposite effect of what an elite spec should be.

 

The real life trade off is losing an line for the ele class all wich are mostly dmg + lines. Its as if ele got another earth / water line.

 

Now i would not mind seeing a gen. trade off from core to weaver and tempest of having a globe cd on atument swaps. To make that would core would need .1 or 0 globe cd in-between swaps to where they can swap atuments (when they are off cd) as fast as the player wants. For tempest you could need to make it a must to have overload ready to go the moment they swap into an atument as well as letting arcain lower the swap globe cd. At the same time you will need to give tempest effects that core ele dose not have and not just more of one effect. Tempest will need real def boons that core ele cant use like aoe stab aoe resistance and aoe alacrity. The same could be said for weaver it should have a longer globe cd on atument swaps (kind of like it has now) but it will need at least self boons like quickness.

 

Right now yes tempest is a +1 to def for core ele but that all it is no new effect and a comple lost of an aggressive line. In a way its an elite spec that brings next to nothing for the ele class so it cant lose any thing from core ele or it would simply be a worst ele class line chose.

 

This is all on anet and there falling of the ele class and both elite spec they put out with out any true reworks like they gave to the other classes. And more then likely all of this is going to all be seen only by ele class players not anet.

[Jski.6180]

 

 

Added note: There is no more good will for anet if they truly wish to make a real trade off they MUST put the buff in at the same time or it will been seen as a massive nerf to the class that get nothing but nerfs. So please do not even bring up that type of ideal.

 

[GummyBearSummoner.7941]

Post like this is why Anet nerfs ele to the ground

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

the tradeoff for tempest already exists - you give up a useful traitline for the tempest elite that, apart from overloads is pretty lackluster.

[lLobo.7960]

You want a trade off, you need to give tempest something.

As it is, overloads are trade offs in itself, where if you use it you get an AoE in exchange to longer attunement CD.

Tempest without using overloads is a weaker version of core ele.

 

There isn't much you can take from core ele. The only thing it has is attunements. Everything else is based on traitlines (stats, CDs, etc).

Ele doesn't have utility belts, pets, shrouds, special skills or anything to be replaced by overloads...

So the only trade-off it can have is even longer attunment times.

 

Now if you are going to make attunement times longer just by being a tempest (without even using the overloads) then you would need to make overloads not trigger the longer attunment time or make them provide something else. For example:

 

- Attunements have longer CD by default with tempest, but overloads can be used as soon as you get in the attunement (no singularity time).

- Attunements have longer CD by default, overloads need time to use (achieve singularity), but when an overload is successful it recharges all skills in that attunement.

 

In the first way, tempest get longer attunements CD but can start overload when swaping attunements, then use his weapon skills and then swap attunements. This increases the attunement CD but gives the tempest more things to do in that attunement, since it can start the CD earlier (with the overload).

In the second, the longer CD can issue can be reduced by using the overload and, if successful, regaining the weapon skills to use while the attunement/Overload is on CD.

[Jeydra.4386]

OP is correct, Tempest has no real trade-off. It's true that if you choose to overload then you have longer attunement cooldown etc, but that's not the point. Tempest gives you the option to overload _for free_. You don't have to ever overload if you don't want to, and you're almost a strictly superior Elementalist. In contrast going Weaver there is a genuine tradeoff (i.e. worse access to your #3, #4 and #5 skills).

 

So yeah, if ANet is attempting to give every elite specialization at tradeoff, Tempest needs to either lose something, or core Elementalist needs to gain something. What that something is, I don't know, but it should be something.

 

> @"lLobo.7960" said:

> You want a trade off, you need to give tempest something.

> As it is, overloads are trade offs in itself, where if you use it you get an AoE in exchange to longer attunement CD.

> Tempest without using overloads is a weaker version of core ele.

 

That's not true - you still gain the extra utilities. "Wash the Pain Away!", "Aftershock!", "Flash Freeze!", "Rebound!" etc are all good skills that see applications in multiple formats. Plus you can use Warhorn offhand. The only real thing you lose is opportunity cost to spec an extra line, but that's fundamental to every elite specialization.

[Infusion.7149]

The first tradeoff is for damage : auras don't do much on their own so you're mainly looking at overloads and whatever warhorn brings over offhand dagger or focus (mainly lightning orb / heat sync / wildfire). Of the weapon skills, only lightning orb stands out offensively versus offhand dagger. Overloads lock you out of attunements which is why fresh air is typically used ; before the ferocity bonus was added in 2016 it wasn't that much of a help when attuning to air. Because it takes 6 seconds to attain singularity the 5s fresh air ferocity bonus isn't applied to overload air unless you run Transcendent Tempest to cut the time to reach singularity by 33%.

 

**Overloads** aren't "free" ; they also have a hefty cast time and fairly long recharge (other than conjure weapons) once you account for singularity time and attunement swap time. Why do you think people run support tempest and fresh air DPS tempest? The overloads themselves aren't that amazing, fresh air is used to give overload air much more frequent use and the large radius is used for cleave. Overload air is basically the main use for power tempest, whereas overload fire and overload earth are more suited for condi dagger builds.

 

**Shouts**, the other major tempest feature can only factor in "Wash the Pain Away" unless you're support tempest or in competitive modes. "Flash Freeze!" and "Rebound!" are not that amazing, mainly they're used to proc aura share or healing from auras. "Feel the Burn" might generation is secondary to other sources so not really worth over other utilities if you are damage oriented without aura share. "Aftershock" is great though in PvE you'd want lightning hammer , Glyph of Storms, or Signet of fire because they actually do damage or augment damage.

 

All the traitlines have damage modifiers now pretty much, that's the secondary tradeoff. Fire has 10% bonus vs burning , +150 power in fire attunement, as well as optional +150 Power under 10 might (doubled in fire attunement), air has a ferocity bonus and fury generation, water has 10% damage bonus vs vulnerable foes and another 10% from Flow Like Water (added July 2019), Arcane has Bountiful Power (2% per boon) and Arcane Precision for conditions , Earth has a 5% damage bonus vs bleeding. It's actually a DPS loss running non fresh air tempest with staff vs core ele with staff overall because lava font cooldown is lower than the overload.

 

In PvP/WvW the main tradeoff is you lose a primarily defensive traitline whether it is earth or water attunement. You can deal with conditions via fire attunement instead of water , but if you want to have critical hit immunity via Stone Heart or basically 17% damage reduction from nearby people within range while in earth attunement , it's not possible concurrently.

Air+Water+Tempest is typical for aurashare with Fresh air or Bolt to the Heart

Fire+Water+Tempest is used for condi clears with shouts , without the air traitline the shouts are more or less mandatory if you want to actually condi clear using Fire traitline. Instead of aiming for overloads, the aura from swapping to fire attunement is the main draw.

Fire+Air+Tempest is typical for damage that is staff based because fire attunement on its own is what to use on staff most of the time

Fire+Earth condi Tempest could easily be run as core dagger+dagger with arcane

 

**Weapon by weapon**: As far as staff, air+water+fire (Power Overwhelming + Burning Precision) core ele probably does more than tempest due to only having a very short 7% damage modifier in tempest traitline.

For dagger+warhorn, lightning orb + damage over time from wildfire can be compared with dagger offhand. That's why the overloads basically allow it to compete.

Scepter's main damage skills are generally low cooldown but hitting anything with Dragon's tooth, Shatterstone, or Hurl is really contingent on CC or chill/cripple/immob. Warhorn has tracking and delay so it is about as bad to hit things with it on demand.

 

If you want to nerf tempest you really have to look hard at what core ele has. To imply that there is no trade-off is false when the main thing you gain from tempest is flexibility in stunbreaks , auras, and shouts at the cost of sustained damage (because of attunement lockout) unless you run fresh air.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> The first tradeoff is for damage : auras don't do much on their own so you're mainly looking at overloads and whatever warhorn brings over offhand dagger or focus (mainly lightning orb / heat sync / wildfire). Of the weapon skills, only lightning orb stands out offensively versus offhand dagger. Overloads lock you out of attunements which is why fresh air is typically used ; before the ferocity bonus was added in 2016 it wasn't that much of a help when attuning to air. Because it takes 6 seconds to attain singularity the 5s fresh air ferocity bonus isn't applied to overload air unless you run Transcendent Tempest to cut the time to reach singularity by 33%.

>

> **Overloads** aren't "free" ; they also have a hefty cast time and fairly long recharge (other than conjure weapons) once you account for singularity time and attunement swap time. Why do you think people run support tempest and fresh air DPS tempest? The overloads themselves aren't that amazing, fresh air is used to give overload air much more frequent use and the large radius is used for cleave. Overload air is basically the main use for power tempest, whereas overload fire and overload earth are more suited for condi dagger builds.

>

> **Shouts**, the other major tempest feature can only factor in "Wash the Pain Away" unless you're support tempest or in competitive modes. "Flash Freeze!" and "Rebound!" are not that amazing, mainly they're used to proc aura share or healing from auras. "Feel the Burn" might generation is secondary to other sources so not really worth over other utilities if you are damage oriented without aura share. "Aftershock" is great though in PvE you'd want lightning hammer , Glyph of Storms, or Signet of fire because they actually do damage or augment damage.

>

> All the traitlines have damage modifiers now pretty much, that's the secondary tradeoff. Fire has 10% bonus vs burning , +150 power in fire attunement, as well as optional +150 Power under 10 might (doubled in fire attunement), air has a ferocity bonus and fury generation, water has 10% damage bonus vs vulnerable foes and another 10% from Flow Like Water (added July 2019), Arcane has Bountiful Power (2% per boon) and Arcane Precision for conditions , Earth has a 5% damage bonus vs bleeding. It's actually a DPS loss running non fresh air tempest with staff vs core ele with staff overall because lava font cooldown is lower than the overload.

>

> In PvP/WvW the main tradeoff is you lose a primarily defensive traitline whether it is earth or water attunement. You can deal with conditions via fire attunement instead of water , but if you want to have critical hit immunity via Stone Heart or basically 17% damage reduction from nearby people within range while in earth attunement , it's not possible concurrently.

> Air+Water+Tempest is typical for aurashare with Fresh air or Bolt to the Heart

> Fire+Water+Tempest is used for condi clears with shouts , without the air traitline the shouts are more or less mandatory if you want to actually condi clear using Fire traitline. Instead of aiming for overloads, the aura from swapping to fire attunement is the main draw.

> Fire+Air+Tempest is typical for damage that is staff based because fire attunement on its own is what to use on staff most of the time

> Fire+Earth condi Tempest could easily be run as core dagger+dagger with arcane

>

> **Weapon by weapon**: As far as staff, air+water+fire (Power Overwhelming + Burning Precision) core ele probably does more than tempest due to only having a very short 7% damage modifier in tempest traitline.

> For dagger+warhorn, lightning orb + damage over time from wildfire can be compared with dagger offhand. That's why the overloads basically allow it to compete.

> Scepter's main damage skills are generally low cooldown but hitting anything with Dragon's tooth, Shatterstone, or Hurl is really contingent on CC or chill/cripple/immob. Warhorn has tracking and delay so it is about as bad to hit things with it on demand.

>

> If you want to nerf tempest you really have to look hard at what core ele has. To imply that there is no trade-off is false when the main thing you gain from tempest is flexibility in stunbreaks , auras, and shouts at the cost of sustained damage (because of attunement lockout) unless you run fresh air.

 

That's all fine and dandy, dude, but Anet has defined trade offs as something else.

 

You can't really bring up "not being able to pick a defensive trait line" as a trade off, this argumentation didn't work when Anet introduced the trade off mechanic for other classes like soulbeast. The opportunity cost for having to slot in the elite spec trait line has never been considered a real trade off here.

 

I am just looking at the definition of trade offs that Anet has shown to us. And according to this definition, tempest currently has no trade off right now.

[Stallic.2397]

Tempests get overloads for free? Do you guys even play Ele? The increased Cooldown is the trade off. Instead of that price being paid before hand, you're paying for it after. Simple

 

Could a Tempest choose not to overload? Of course. A ranger could choose to stow away his pet all game. A necromancer could decide to never go into shroud. But how absurd would that be. It's like telling Firebrand to play without using his tomes.

 

It goes against the very rotation of the class. A tempest is not a better core. The two builds don't play the same, not even in the slightest. In fact, Weaver has more similar gameplay to core than tempest does. Further trade offs to tempest would just be unnecessary nerfs

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> OP is correct, Tempest has no real trade-off. It's true that if you choose to overload then you have longer attunement cooldown etc, but that's not the point. Tempest gives you the option to overload _for free_. You don't have to ever overload if you don't want to, and you're almost a strictly superior Elementalist. In contrast going Weaver there is a genuine tradeoff (i.e. worse access to your #3, #4 and #5 skills).

 

Except Overloads are a big part of how Tempest works aswell as being locked out of each attunement for 20 seconds after Overloading (Unless you run FA in Air traitline) Overloading for example Water can benefit you providing you dont get CC'd once after you overload you normally swap to another attunement and if you get hit hard or condi bombed your going to wish you can go back into water only to notice you have 15 seconds left, lets not forget Overloading is a 4 sec channel with most tempest not running stability, so 1 CC would be enough to stop the overload aswell as putting it on a 20 sec CD so there is a tradeoff for it

 

In other words.. Get Gud

 

[Jeydra.4386]

> @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:

> > @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > OP is correct, Tempest has no real trade-off. It's true that if you choose to overload then you have longer attunement cooldown etc, but that's not the point. Tempest gives you the option to overload _for free_. You don't have to ever overload if you don't want to, and you're almost a strictly superior Elementalist. In contrast going Weaver there is a genuine tradeoff (i.e. worse access to your #3, #4 and #5 skills).

>

> Except Overloads are a big part of how Tempest works aswell as being locked out of each attunement for 20 seconds after Overloading (Unless you run FA in Air traitline) Overloading for example Water can benefit you providing you dont get CC'd once after you overload you normally swap to another attunement and if you get hit hard or condi bombed your going to wish you can go back into water only to notice you have 15 seconds left, lets not forget Overloading is a 4 sec channel with most tempest not running stability, so 1 CC would be enough to stop the overload aswell as putting it on a 20 sec CD so there is a tradeoff for it

>

> In other words.. Get Gud

>

 

You can still choose not to overload if you don't want to. If you think you're going to get hit hard or condi bombed, don't overload Water. Simple. Having extra options is always better than not. In the same way adding an extra weapon (for example) to Elementalist is a buff, even if that weapon is completely useless in all but the most niche of scenarios.

 

Repeat, the point is that there is _no drawback_ to speccing Tempest _except_ that you cannot trait another line, which is not a real drawback because it applies to every single trait line in the game. If you don't believe that (and this applies to Stallic as well): prove it by showing something core Ele can do that Tempest cannot that does not involve speccing three specific trait lines. For comparison here are three things Tempests can do that core Ele cannot: overload, use certain utilities, use Warhorn.

 

I'll also say that this is _not_ an argument that Tempest is currently overpowered. It's an argument that there is _no drawback_ to speccing Tempest _except_ that you cannot trait another line.

[Stallic.2397]

Trade-Offs and Drawbacks to elites are to create diversity. When Anet truly introduced trade-offs (much later than the release of HOT) it was to make sure that playing the same build on Core wasn't just enhanced on an Elite. For Example, Sic Em on Soulbeast used to be Core Sic Em, but better. Power Mirage was Core Power Mesmer but better. Trade offs had to be introduced so Elite's didn't just enhance core Builds.

 

Tempest does not enhance core builds. Because Tempest plays completely different from core. It doesn't need such a heavy trade-off to create diversity. Is there a trade off? Yes. Every trade off on every class is different. Dare Devil loses range on swipe, Bezerker losses toughness, engi loses F5, mirage loses a dodge. So Every trade off is different compared to how it IMPACTS THE ELITE AND MAKES IT DIFFERENT FROM CORE. One trade off isn't of greater value than another trade off. Just as long as it's a big enough difference so that Core and the Elite don't play the same.

 

Core Ele has 20 skills. Seems overpowered, until you realize, they have to play a piano effect to do what any other class can do with 10 skills. Rapidly go through skills. Tempest doesn't play that way. First immediate difference. Tempest has to wait 5 sec to get it's elite effect. In 5 seconds, Core Ele is already changing attunements, because that's how it's effective, Core ele has to move on.

 

After 5 sec. Tempest overloads for another 4 sec. When they leave that attunement after 9 sec, they have to wait another 20 sec to play that effect again. These time tables ARE the trade off. It dramatically changes the class, which is why you won't see a core build the same as a tempest build. Their rotations are different, their effects are different.

 

Those that say there is no trade off are those that look at their main class and say, "Tempest has it easy". They're not looking at the class as a whole. Core and Tempest play so dramatically different, it doesn't need a heavy trade off like the other professions did.

 

 

[GoodWithGravy.8019]

This thread probably seems a bit odd for anyone that remembers HoT release when Tempest was the *only* e-spec a trade-off (CD increase).

 

Cool down increases (Tempest) and vastly increased swap times (Weaver) seem much more like real trade offs than having something replaced by an objective upgrade (reaper/DH/FB/etc.)

 

Reaper shroud in particular is an example where replacing a skill bar slot alone is _not_ considered a trade off - ANet gave it a faster depletion rate as a trade off years later.

 

 

A few questions about the whole idea:

 

Firstly - is there any record of any ANet Dev explicitly stating that a trade off must be a permanent removal of something? The thread seems to hinge on this and haven't seen it.

 

Secondly, how does the increased time to access double attuned 3 skills count as a "permanent" removal when you can access them? How is increased time to access these skills different to increased time to access an attunement? This seems assumed true and I haven't seen any good argument of _why_ this is justified.

 

As a side note Weaver has many trade-offs: a base Ele can swap attunements every 2 seconds (4 with 8s cool down) whilst Weaver swaps half an attunement every 4 seconds - this is a 4x increase in weapon swap delay - they also lose all "on swap" trait effects if double attuning.

 

I like the idea some people have raised of giving base Ele an F5 with some attunement dependent effect - especially the aura generator - I think also allowing this button to detonate any auras obtained (on separate CD from those on weapons) would be good and not OP.

[Jeydra.4386]

> @"Stallic.2397" said:

> Trade-Offs and Drawbacks to elites are to create diversity. When Anet truly introduced trade-offs (much later than the release of HOT) it was to make sure that playing the same build on Core wasn't just enhanced on an Elite. For Example, Sic Em on Soulbeast used to be Core Sic Em, but better. Power Mirage was Core Power Mesmer but better. Trade offs had to be introduced so Elite's didn't just enhance core Builds.

>

> Tempest does not enhance core builds. Because Tempest plays completely different from core. It doesn't need such a heavy trade-off to create diversity. Is there a trade off? Yes. Every trade off on every class is different. Dare Devil loses range on swipe, Bezerker losses toughness, engi loses F5, mirage loses a dodge. So Every trade off is different compared to how it IMPACTS THE ELITE AND MAKES IT DIFFERENT FROM CORE. One trade off isn't of greater value than another trade off. Just as long as it's a big enough difference so that Core and the Elite don't play the same.

>

> Core Ele has 20 skills. Seems overpowered, until you realize, they have to play a piano effect to do what any other class can do with 10 skills. Rapidly go through skills. Tempest doesn't play that way. First immediate difference. Tempest has to wait 5 sec to get it's elite effect. In 5 seconds, Core Ele is already changing attunements, because that's how it's effective, Core ele has to move on.

>

> After 5 sec. Tempest overloads for another 4 sec. When they leave that attunement after 9 sec, they have to wait another 20 sec to play that effect again. These time tables ARE the trade off. It dramatically changes the class, which is why you won't see a core build the same as a tempest build. Their rotations are different, their effects are different.

>

> Those that say there is no trade off are those that look at their main class and say, "Tempest has it easy". They're not looking at the class as a whole. Core and Tempest play so dramatically different, it doesn't need a heavy trade off like the other professions did.

>

>

 

No, trade offs are losing something to gain something else. When you spec Mirage, you gain ambush attacks, Axe weapon skills, etc. The trade off is you have only one one dodge roll. The loss is serious and that's what the trade off is supposed to be. When you spec Weaver, you gain dual attacks, Sword weapon skills, certain utilities, etc. The trade off is you have harder access to your weapon skills #3-#5, again a serious loss and is part of the reason why Weavers can't heal.

 

When you spec Tempest as an Elementalist, you gain overloads, Warhorn weapon skills, and certain utility skills. _What do you lose?_ Name something please. If you can't name something then there is no trade off, simple as that.

 

That the playstyle of Tempest compared to core Ele is different, that overloads put the attunement on longer cooldown, that it takes 5 seconds to prepare an overload, etc, all these are irrelevant to the fact that you lose nothing by speccing Tempest (except a trait line, which as I've already pointed out is not a real drawback because it applies to every single trait line in the game).

 

Again this is NOT saying that Tempest is overpowered or "Tempest has it easy" or anything like that. The point is that there is _no drawback_ to speccing Tempest _except _ that you cannot trait another line.

[Stallic.2397]

> @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > @"Stallic.2397" said:

> When you spec Tempest as an Elementalist, you gain overloads, Warhorn weapon skills, and certain utility skills. _What do you lose?_ Name something please. If you can't name something then there is no trade off, simple as that.

 

I'm telling you what they lose. Either you're not listening or you think it's current trade off is not enough. The time tables and weapon rotations of Tempest are so different from Core Ele, that's the trade-off. Tempest loses every core build that made Core Ele viable because it plays so differently. Tempest has to go into battle in such a different way, it doesn't need a heavy trade-off.

 

Honestly, this just shows a lack of understanding of what a trade-off is. If you knew the PURPOSE OF A TRADE-OFF, you would know that Tempest already has one. Read that again please.

 

Anet introduced Elites and told everyone, it changes that class. It's not an upgrade, it's a difference of playstyle. The term TRADE-OFF didn't become of use until much after the release of HOT, when people realized certain elites only upgraded core. They didn't change the playstyle.

 

Trade-offs aren't nerfs. It's not something solely to be lost. Read that again as well. Trade offs are interventions to change the way the class is played. Tempest didn't receive any further trade-offs after release, because it didn't need them.

[Infusion.7149]

Which mode is this complaint even about?

 

At HoT launch , Tempest was considered the worst elite spec by far...

Right now only chrono is really bad post nerf due to clone reliance, but in PvE people are still using it. There was a time where chrono was dominant and even in PVP we had bunker chrono and boonshare in WvW.

Berserker is in a decent place for PvE players but not so much for competitive modes (mainly due to headbutt and berserk losing 300 toughness), dragonhunter is decent in all modes, druid is in a bad place in competitive modes but is wanted for instanced PvE, reaper is in a decent place in WvW and despite all the complaints from PvErs if your quickness uptime isn't stellar reaper is more self sufficient, scrapper is relevant in WvW but not so much in PvE, daredevil is relevant everywhere, and lastly herald is relevant in WvW/PVP but not so much in PVE (even if it is super consistent as far as damage due to 100% fury uptime).

 

I'm really surprised this thread is still going.

 

What can core ele do better? Anything damage related because you can run a 3rd damage traitline (as stated above) which means added damage over tempest. Overloads without fresh air do less overall than a core ele , because the cooldowns on the second skill on a elementalist skillbar is generally low.

 

As stated above, if you run fire+water+air , fire+air+arcane , or fire+water+arcane you have more damage modifiers than tempest and you will not be at the mercy of a 7% modifier that only occurs for mere seconds after overloads. Any of the permutations running fire (power and 10% outgoing bonus) , water (two 10% outgoing bonuses), air (ferocity bonuses and fury generation), and arcane (boon generation on attunement swap and a damage modifier depending on boons) will have higher damage due to not being locked out of an attunement and also having higher modifiers.

 

What can tempest do better? Aura share , heal with auras, and spam overload air (earth+fire if condi). The very idea of not overloading or using shouts is just building an inferior core ele.

 

 

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Which mode is this complaint even about?

>

> At HoT launch , Tempest was considered the worst elite spec by far...

> Right now only chrono is really bad post nerf due to clone reliance, but in PvE people are still using it. There was a time where chrono was dominant and even in PVP we had bunker chrono and boonshare in WvW.

> Berserker is in a decent place for PvE players but not so much for competitive modes (mainly due to headbutt and berserk losing 300 toughness), dragonhunter is decent in all modes, druid is in a bad place in competitive modes but is wanted for instanced PvE, reaper is in a decent place in WvW and despite all the complaints from PvErs if your quickness uptime isn't stellar reaper is more self sufficient, scrapper is relevant in WvW but not so much in PvE, daredevil is relevant everywhere, and lastly herald is relevant in WvW/PVP but not so much in PVE (even if it is super consistent as far as damage due to 100% fury uptime).

>

> I'm really surprised this thread is still going.

>

> What can core ele do better? Anything damage related because you can run a 3rd damage traitline (as stated above) which means added damage over tempest. Overloads without fresh air do less overall than a core ele , because the cooldowns on the second skill on a elementalist skillbar is generally low.

>

> As stated above, if you run fire+water+air , fire+air+arcane , or fire+water+arcane you have more damage modifiers than tempest and you will not be at the mercy of a 7% modifier that only occurs for mere seconds after overloads. Any of the permutations running fire (power and 10% outgoing bonus) , water (two 10% outgoing bonuses), air (ferocity bonuses and fury generation), and arcane (boon generation on attunement swap and a damage modifier depending on boons) will have higher damage due to not being locked out of an attunement and also having higher modifiers.

>

> What can tempest do better? Aura share , heal with auras, and spam overload air (earth+fire if condi). The very idea of not overloading or using shouts is just building an inferior core ele.

>

>

 

This thread here is not really meant as a complaint, but asking for Anet to be consequent with their designs when it comes to elite specs.

 

Yes, tempest is worse at dealing damage than the base elementalist. That is not a trade off, that is the role that the spec is meant to fill. To this point, all elite specs can get seperated in 3 different roles they try to fill: dps, bruiser, and support.

All classes have currently 2 elite specs, filling 2 of these 3 roles.

 

Mesmers have support (chronomancer) and dps (mirage).

Engineers have bruiser (scrapper) and dps (holosmith).

Rangers have support (druid) and dps (soulbeast).

Elementalists have support (tempest) and dps (weaver).

And so on.

 

But even if, for example, the druid is worse at dealing damage than the core ranger (as a support spec just like tempest), but they still got an actual trade off installed into their spec by getting reduced pet stats.

I still want to point out, what others have pointed out that elementalist could probably get the same treatment like engineers and revenants in the past makes sense. They could give the core elementalist something that the elite specs lose access to, making it the real trade off in the sense that Anet has established.

 

This is all I am asking for. It is not a complaint about elementalist, they can also give the elementalist a buff in core that is taken away from the tempest when specced. Which means that the tempest is actually unaffected, while we are still installing the trade off mechanic which Anet has followed in the last time, making this design point consistent across all elite specs. This is all I am asking for, that the same rules apply to every elite spec.

[Swagger.1459]

Tempest has a trade off... Warhorn is junky. You should really be asking for a trade off for weaver.

[Jeydra.4386]

> @"Stallic.2397" said:

> > @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > > @"Stallic.2397" said:

> > When you spec Tempest as an Elementalist, you gain overloads, Warhorn weapon skills, and certain utility skills. _What do you lose?_ Name something please. If you can't name something then there is no trade off, simple as that.

>

> I'm telling you what they lose. Either you're not listening or you think it's current trade off is not enough. The time tables and weapon rotations of Tempest are so different from Core Ele, that's the trade-off. Tempest loses every core build that made Core Ele viable because it plays so differently. Tempest has to go into battle in such a different way, it doesn't need a heavy trade-off.

>

> Honestly, this just shows a lack of understanding of what a trade-off ~~~~is. If you knew the PURPOSE OF A TRADE-OFF, you would know that Tempest already has one. Read that again please.

>

> Anet introduced Elites and told everyone, it changes that class. It's not an upgrade, it's a difference of playstyle. The term TRADE-OFF didn't become of use until much after the release of HOT, when people realized certain elites only upgraded core. They didn't change the playstyle.

>

> Trade-offs aren't nerfs. It's not something solely to be lost. Read that again as well. Trade offs are interventions to change the way the class is played. Tempest didn't receive any further trade-offs after release, because it didn't need them.

 

Unless you can claim that the time tables and weapon rotations of Tempest are somehow _worse_ than core Ele, it's not a trade off. "Different" is not enough (and neither is "harder to learn", unless it is so much harder that it becomes a genuine barrier, which it clearly isn't right now). And there is no difference in playstyle _if you don't want a difference_. There is nothing stopping you from playing Tempest the same way as core Ele if you want. You don't do that because there's something clearly superior to that (i.e. using the options made available by Tempest).

 

You are not understanding why it is important to have a trade-off or even what a trade-off is.

 

If there is no trade-off, everyone would simply play the version that's better. There's no reason not to. After the release of HoT, how often did you ever see anyone play core Ele instead of Tempest? Why would anyone do that anyway? Note this didn't apply to certain other elite specializations like Reaper & Berserker (even today core Necro/Warrior have applications). But did you ever see anyone play core Ele? If you are honest you'll acknowledge the answer is "no" (exception applies to people who don't own HoT).

 

You are right though that trade-offs aren't nerfs. There are ways to give Tempest a trade-off that doesn't involve nerfing Tempest. An obvious one is to give core Ele some flashy new skill that they lose when they spec Tempest. Another way is to give a bonus for every non-elite specialization line that is traited, with a major boost at 3. In both cases there is a genuine loss if you choose Tempest. If you want to do it without buffs that's also possible: make it clear that everyone is expected to trait an elite specialization and that core builds are intended to be inferior (the consequences of which are off-topic).

 

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Which mode is this complaint even about?

>

> At HoT launch , Tempest was considered the worst elite spec by far...

> Right now only chrono is really bad post nerf due to clone reliance, but in PvE people are still using it. There was a time where chrono was dominant and even in PVP we had bunker chrono and boonshare in WvW.

> Berserker is in a decent place for PvE players but not so much for competitive modes (mainly due to headbutt and berserk losing 300 toughness), dragonhunter is decent in all modes, druid is in a bad place in competitive modes but is wanted for instanced PvE, reaper is in a decent place in WvW and despite all the complaints from PvErs if your quickness uptime isn't stellar reaper is more self sufficient, scrapper is relevant in WvW but not so much in PvE, daredevil is relevant everywhere, and lastly herald is relevant in WvW/PVP but not so much in PVE (even if it is super consistent as far as damage due to 100% fury uptime).

>

> I'm really surprised this thread is still going.

>

> What can core ele do better? Anything damage related because you can run a 3rd damage traitline (as stated above) which means added damage over tempest. Overloads without fresh air do less overall than a core ele , because the cooldowns on the second skill on a elementalist skillbar is generally low.

>

> As stated above, if you run fire+water+air , fire+air+arcane , or fire+water+arcane you have more damage modifiers than tempest and you will not be at the mercy of a 7% modifier that only occurs for mere seconds after overloads. Any of the permutations running fire (power and 10% outgoing bonus) , water (two 10% outgoing bonuses), air (ferocity bonuses and fury generation), and arcane (boon generation on attunement swap and a damage modifier depending on boons) will have higher damage due to not being locked out of an attunement and also having higher modifiers.

>

> What can tempest do better? Aura share , heal with auras, and spam overload air (earth+fire if condi). The very idea of not overloading or using shouts is just building an inferior core ele.

>

>

 

This isn't a complaint about current game balance. It's about game design and applies regardless of what the state of balance is.

 

Are you really claiming that core Ele can do more damage than Tempest "because you can run a 3rd damage traitline"? If so, prove it. Here's Tempest hitting 36k DPS against the training golem with both [power ](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/tempest/power/)& [condition ](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/tempest/condition/)builds. Upload some screenshots/videos of you doing more as a core Ele.

[Grimjack.8130]

> @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > @"Stallic.2397" said:

> > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > > > @"Stallic.2397" said:

> > > When you spec Tempest as an Elementalist, you gain overloads, Warhorn weapon skills, and certain utility skills. _What do you lose?_ Name something please. If you can't name something then there is no trade off, simple as that.

> >

> > I'm telling you what they lose. Either you're not listening or you think it's current trade off is not enough. The time tables and weapon rotations of Tempest are so different from Core Ele, that's the trade-off. Tempest loses every core build that made Core Ele viable because it plays so differently. Tempest has to go into battle in such a different way, it doesn't need a heavy trade-off.

> >

> > Honestly, this just shows a lack of understanding of what a trade-off ~~~~is. If you knew the PURPOSE OF A TRADE-OFF, you would know that Tempest already has one. Read that again please.

> >

> > Anet introduced Elites and told everyone, it changes that class. It's not an upgrade, it's a difference of playstyle. The term TRADE-OFF didn't become of use until much after the release of HOT, when people realized certain elites only upgraded core. They didn't change the playstyle.

> >

> > Trade-offs aren't nerfs. It's not something solely to be lost. Read that again as well. Trade offs are interventions to change the way the class is played. Tempest didn't receive any further trade-offs after release, because it didn't need them.

>

> Unless you can claim that the time tables and weapon rotations of Tempest are somehow _worse_ than core Ele, it's not a trade off. "Different" is not enough (and neither is "harder to learn", unless it is so much harder that it becomes a genuine barrier, which it clearly isn't right now). And there is no difference in playstyle _if you don't want a difference_. There is nothing stopping you from playing Tempest the same way as core Ele if you want. You don't do that because there's something clearly superior to that (i.e. using the options made available by Tempest).

>

> You are not understanding why it is important to have a trade-off or even what a trade-off is.

>

> If there is no trade-off, everyone would simply play the version that's better. There's no reason not to. After the release of HoT, how often did you ever see anyone play core Ele instead of Tempest? Why would anyone do that anyway? Note this didn't apply to certain other elite specializations like Reaper & Berserker (even today core Necro/Warrior have applications). But did you ever see anyone play core Ele? If you are honest you'll acknowledge the answer is "no" (exception applies to people who don't own HoT).

>

> You are right though that trade-offs aren't nerfs. There are ways to give Tempest a trade-off that doesn't involve nerfing Tempest. An obvious one is to give core Ele some flashy new skill that they lose when they spec Tempest. Another way is to give a bonus for every non-elite specialization line that is traited, with a major boost at 3. In both cases there is a genuine loss if you choose Tempest. If you want to do it without buffs that's also possible: make it clear that everyone is expected to trait an elite specialization and that core builds are intended to be inferior (the consequences of which are off-topic).

>

> > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > Which mode is this complaint even about?

> >

> > At HoT launch , Tempest was considered the worst elite spec by far...

> > Right now only chrono is really bad post nerf due to clone reliance, but in PvE people are still using it. There was a time where chrono was dominant and even in PVP we had bunker chrono and boonshare in WvW.

> > Berserker is in a decent place for PvE players but not so much for competitive modes (mainly due to headbutt and berserk losing 300 toughness), dragonhunter is decent in all modes, druid is in a bad place in competitive modes but is wanted for instanced PvE, reaper is in a decent place in WvW and despite all the complaints from PvErs if your quickness uptime isn't stellar reaper is more self sufficient, scrapper is relevant in WvW but not so much in PvE, daredevil is relevant everywhere, and lastly herald is relevant in WvW/PVP but not so much in PVE (even if it is super consistent as far as damage due to 100% fury uptime).

> >

> > I'm really surprised this thread is still going.

> >

> > What can core ele do better? Anything damage related because you can run a 3rd damage traitline (as stated above) which means added damage over tempest. Overloads without fresh air do less overall than a core ele , because the cooldowns on the second skill on a elementalist skillbar is generally low.

> >

> > As stated above, if you run fire+water+air , fire+air+arcane , or fire+water+arcane you have more damage modifiers than tempest and you will not be at the mercy of a 7% modifier that only occurs for mere seconds after overloads. Any of the permutations running fire (power and 10% outgoing bonus) , water (two 10% outgoing bonuses), air (ferocity bonuses and fury generation), and arcane (boon generation on attunement swap and a damage modifier depending on boons) will have higher damage due to not being locked out of an attunement and also having higher modifiers.

> >

> > What can tempest do better? Aura share , heal with auras, and spam overload air (earth+fire if condi). The very idea of not overloading or using shouts is just building an inferior core ele.

> >

> >

>

> This isn't a complaint about current game balance. It's about game design and applies regardless of what the state of balance is.

>

> Are you really claiming that core Ele can do more damage than Tempest "because you can run a 3rd damage traitline"? If so, prove it. Here's Tempest hitting 36k DPS against the training golem with both [power ](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/tempest/power/)& [condition ](https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/elementalist/tempest/condition/)builds. Upload some screenshots/videos of you doing more as a core Ele.

 

Tempest is actually much worse as a 3rd traitline than Water or Fire or Air or Arcane, however Warhorn skills are BUSTED, if you did a Staff Core Ele Vs a Staff Tempest itd be VERY close.

[BigEvs.6971]

The most interesting aspect of this discussion to me is that the difficulty in deciding whether tempest should get a trade-off lies in its poor design as a spec. That is to say: I have disliked Tempest since its creation, so it's odd to me to see a suggestion that it needs a trade-off.

 

That said, I do agree with those who've said that design consistency is important. So, I'll be upfront with my core ele bias: I'm totally on board with giving Core Ele even a minor extra effect akin to what Core Rev received so that swapping to Tempest or Weaver feels like more of a loss. Emphasis on it being a minor effect.

 

Like, perhaps certain on-swap properties in arcane could become baseline to Core Ele and lost once you equip Tempest? There already exists a dichotomy between Elemental Attunement benefiting the player immediately on swap (lending to attunement dancing) and Tempest gaining access to attunement-specific overloads only after a delay (lending to doubling down on each attunement), for example.

 

I think that giving a straight nerf-trade-off to Tempest without very careful consideration could see it go the way of Druid - another spec that could choose simply not to use their unique mechanic but got a hard nerf-trade-off anyway. Now it's awful. I dislike Tempest, but that is my best attempt at being objective on it.

[Hannelore.8153]

Give Auramancer access to Alacrity or Quickness and then you can instill whatever tradeoff you want on the class. Currently Tempest offers nothing over Core Ele besides a few extra Auras on Warhorn, and Overloads, which can be interrupted. Most of the traits that Tempest was built around, such as Auras, don't even work without the Core trait lines being set up properly,.

 

Name one advantage a Tempest has over Core Ele besides extra Stunbreak.Why do you think nearly everyone plays Weaver, which is basically a better version of Core and better than Tempest in every way except maybe support?

 

I would love for Tempest to camp attunements longer (opposite of Weaver) and be less piano-esque playstyle than Core, to turn them into something of a class that gains power the longer they stay in an attunement rather than the opposite (think Overload=Limit Break). But I don't think this is ArenaNet's vision, as they can't seem to imagine any incarnation of Ele that plays like *any* other class in the game.

 

Even Engi or Rev don't even come close on the attunement whack-a-mole. so if you want a tradeoff, there's a good place to start.

[Aenesthesia.1697]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Anet is trying to install trade offs in all elite specs of the game, which means that the elite specs lose something **permanently** compared to their core classes.

> Recently, they installed more trade offs to other classes, like removing the in combat pet swap from the soulbeast.

>

> Looking through the elite specs, tempest is the only one left without any real trade off in Anet's sense.

> I know that the attunement CDs are longer after overcharging, but the point is that the CD is just longer after using these. As long as you choose not to use the overload abilities, the tempest absolutely loses nothing compared to the elementalist.

>

> That's not like the trade offs for other classes. Reaper's can't choose not to use their Reaper's Shroud and use their Death Shroud instead. Holosmiths can't choose not to use their Holoforge and get back their access to elite toolbelt skills. Chronomancers can't choose not to use their new set of shatters in favour of the core ones.

>

> Tempest should get a real permanent trade off compared to the core elementalist. Most logical thing for me would be to increase their attunement CDs by default instead of just after overload use. But I want to ask you guys what you think, too. Is there another trade off you could think of to install in the tempest?

 

Tempest does have a tradeoff. If the tempest doesn't use the overloads, he is just a core elementalist with a wasted specialization. If he uses the overloads, he is punished with longer cds. In both cases, there's a tradeoff for being tempest.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

> @"Aenesthesia.1697" said:

>

> Tempest does have a tradeoff. If the tempest doesn't use the overloads, he is just a core elementalist with a wasted specialization. If he uses the overloads, he is punished with longer cds. In both cases, there's a tradeoff for being tempest.

 

What kind of argument is that? The tradeoff of being Tempest is that if you don't use the overloads you don't get the benefit of the overloads? Its literally 4 extra skills that are extremely usefull boon and aura suppliers, stunbreakers, aoe fields and finishers that make it so I don't have to play the ele like a piano to get good results and you're telling me that is in some way a tradeoff? I guess you're right in a way, I traded out stress for relaxation.

 

The traitline never counts as a tradeoff for other classes so I'm not sure if thats a good argument. Having an additional option in the form of overloads is also not considered a tradeoff because it is an option that is just additional whether you want to use them or not. The skills themselves are not a tradeoff for the class because what do you trade in order to have access to these skills? nothing.

 

The problem lies in ele's core mechanic, attunements. It's less of a mechanic than it is a playstyle. It's more comparable to thief's initiative or revs legend swapping, which is why I think core ele should get an extra mechanic or unique buff because they can't really trade or alter attunements in many more ways than weaver did, and it will always cause a huge upheaval in balance.