Making Raids Accessible To People Without Enough Time

[Obfuscate.6430]

If making an easy, normal and hard mode isn't feasible, then perhaps add Raid save points or chapters like in Living World story instances.

For myself and I am certain many others, it isn't a lack of desire to participate in Raids. It isn't an inability to learn, or min max my way in to a perfect party composition for a challenge - it's that I work an almost full time physically demanding job with an erratic schedule and I have life responsibilities. My free time is not on a consistent schedule.

 

Imagine if you could Raid in smaller chunks

 

You could argue that is what Strikes are for but my counter argument is that Strikes will not teach you what you are going to face in a Raid. Fractals have an easy version to teach you what to do so that you aren't totally free falling when you finally work your way up to the hard version, which Strikes do not do. However, making difficulty levels for Raids doesn't seem to be something on the table. The compromise then is logically to cut it up in to smaller pieces because that would allow people who want to do it all at once and maintain the - I guess "purity" of the challenge - to do that, while people who have less time can also participate and experience the challenge.

 

Thoughts?

I mean I want to get in to Raids so bad. The rewards look so worth it.

I just. Don't. Have. Time.

Even now. My work is considered essential so I still don't have the kind of time to dedicate that I would need.

[AgentMoore.9453]

Wouldn't different difficulties also solve this problem? Being able to navigate the content more easily would mean that you'd probably be able to navigate it faster, thereby removing most of the problem.

 

I've always advocated for multiple difficulties for raids (and other secondary game modes), because it works so well in other parts of the game. Want to beat a story boss but with 18% more internal bleeding? Challenge motes. Enjoy relaxing festivals but wish you could relax while impaled on an endless sea of spikes? Super Adventure Box Tribulation Mode. These different modes also scale their rewards to ensure that the harder you bash your face against a wall, the more you earn for the effort.

 

There's no need for there to be any kind of division in the players or accessibility leap for something as integral to the game as raids. People shouldn't feel ashamed of their decision to relax or to challenge themselves. They shouldn't have to feel restricted by their time zones or available free time; the option to choose your route to success (hard and fast or casual and gradual) should be as open as is reasonable.

 

If it works for fractals, story bosses, SAB, and adventures/races, why can't it work for raids as well?

[Obfuscate.6430]

AgentMoore - my suggestion was made because making different difficulties might be too resource intensive for the Dev team. Adding different difficulties doesn't solve the problem for people with time issues. My suggestion offers a solution to both those problems.

[AgentMoore.9453]

> @"Obfuscate.6430" said:

> Adding different difficulties doesn't solve the problem for people with time issues.

 

It might, actually. Currently you can join parties that are already in SAB, dungeons, and other instanced group content, which means if you just needed the third boss of a raid wing, you could conceivably check LFG and find a group advertising 'hey, we're at the dude, come get your kill' the way you currently see being offered in other modes.

 

If simpler modes were available, you could conceivably see more people playing raids, which means more opportunity for LFG help such as that.

 

As for whether it'd be harder for devs to add difficulty modes or turn raids into separate pieces/instances, I honestly don't know. I don't have access to their spaghetti.

 

[Obfuscate.6430]

That negates the point of the Raid for people who want to experience the challenge of it but who do not have the time though AgentMoore.

My solution allows for the difficulty to remain intact. It is also a nice compromise incase difficulty levels are too hard to implement.

I would like to see difficulty levels implemented one day but in case they can't I feel my suggestion offers an easier route to allowing people to experience Raids sooner rather than later.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Obfuscate.6430" said:

> If making an easy, normal and hard mode isn't feasible, then perhaps add Raid save points or chapters like in Living World story instances.

> For myself and I am certain many others, it isn't a lack of desire to participate in Raids. It isn't an inability to learn, or min max my way in to a perfect party composition for a challenge - it's that I work an almost full time physically demanding job with an erratic schedule and I have life responsibilities. My free time is not on a consistent schedule.

>

> Imagine if you could Raid in smaller chunks

>

> You could argue that is what Strikes are for but my counter argument is that Strikes will not teach you what you are going to face in a Raid. Fractals have an easy version to teach you what to do so that you aren't totally free falling when you finally work your way up to the hard version, which Strikes do not do. However, making difficulty levels for Raids doesn't seem to be something on the table. The compromise then is logically to cut it up in to smaller pieces because that would allow people who want to do it all at once and maintain the - I guess "purity" of the challenge - to do that, while people who have less time can also participate and experience the challenge.

>

> Thoughts?

> I mean I want to get in to Raids so bad. The rewards look so worth it.

> I just. Don't. Have. Time.

> Even now. My work is considered essential so I still don't have the kind of time to dedicate that I would need.

 

Just work on one boss or event encounter. I don’t see what you’re really asking Anet to do which you cannot already do yourself.

[Obfuscate.6430]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Just work on one boss or event encounter. I don’t see what you’re really asking Anet to do which you cannot already do yourself.

 

Because I want to experience the whole Raid, I want to see and experience the whole story. I want to experience the entire Raid for myself. I don't want to just learn how to defeat the first boss and be stuck fighting that one boss every time I wanted to experience the Raid. Nor do I want to just jump in to a party JUST to kill a boss, without seeing the rest of the story.

If Raids had smaller chunks, people with time constraints can experience all of it.

It doesn't actually affect anything else about the Raids themselves.

 

[Friday.7864]

Raids aren't rewarding at all when you take loot into consideration. If you want ascended and gold just do t4+CMs.

Lege armor only thing worth gunning for. And for that they can't possibly lower the difficulty. Your only option is to buy runs from LFG then.

[aspirine.6852]

Never done them, but isnt raids just ramming on a healthsponge?

[Obfuscate.6430]

> @"Friday.7864" said:

> Raids aren't rewarding at all when you take loot into consideration. If you want ascended and gold just do t4+CMs.

> Lege armor only thing worth gunning for. And for that they can't possibly lower the difficulty. Your only option is to buy runs from LFG then.

 

It is very rewarding when you consider the exclusive skins. I am very skin and story driven. My suggestion doesn't ask them to change the difficulty and it also allows me to enjoy the game play myself without putting out anyone else. That's...the point of my post. lol!

[Obfuscate.6430]

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> Never done them, but isnt raids just ramming on a healthsponge?

 

Yes, but also no. The encounter mechanics are more complex and it makes every role in the party have more meaning opposed to standard PVE content. Party composition actually matters and so does strategy.

[Friday.7864]

I have absolutely no clue how you envisioned this tbh.

What smaller chunks? What checkpoints?

Beat whichever boss you want to get magnetite shards and buy the skins you want.

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Obfuscate.6430" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > Just work on one boss or event encounter. I don’t see what you’re really asking Anet to do which you cannot already do yourself.

>

> Because I want to experience the whole Raid, I want to see and experience the whole story. I want to experience the entire Raid for myself. I don't want to just learn how to defeat the first boss and be stuck fighting that one boss every time I wanted to experience the Raid. Nor do I want to just jump in to a party JUST to kill a boss, without seeing the rest of the story.

> If Raids had smaller chunks, people with time constraints can experience all of it.

> It doesn't actually affect anything else about the Raids themselves.

>

 

There are people that sell instances to other bosses. You don’t have to beat the same boss over and over although I suggest it’s worth doing as a competent group can clear a boss within several minutes depending on the boss.

[Linken.6345]

Smaller chunks, how can it be smaller then now when you can do any boss you want you just have to find someone to open it for you.

Beat boss w1 boss1 first night second night well lets do w3 boss 2 totaly possible.

[zombyturtle.5980]

I dont understand what you mean by checkpoints. Raids already have checkpoints after each boss and after each mini event. Even if you leave the instance and come back days later all your kills will be saved until the next weekly reset.

 

And even if you havnt killed the first boss in an instance, other people will have and can open an instance with the checkpoint to second boss, if thats what you plan on practicing that week.

 

You are not going to be able to fullclear a wing on your first few tries, even with checkpoints, to see full story unless you already have an experienced group who can semi carry you through it.

 

Story in raids is basically non existent anyway, with the exception of Dhuum and w6.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

The Devs just created a new Strike Mission with 'difficulty modes/CMs', so I'm not sure that creating different difficulty modes for Raids is predicated on being too resource-intensive/'too hard to implement'.

Only the Devs can say.

 

Probably, the playerbase would like checkpoints (or more checkpoints) in Story Episodes first (considering how many players have disconnection issues in Story Episodes).

 

Either way, good luck.

[Etria.3642]

> @"Obfuscate.6430" said:

> If making an easy, normal and hard mode isn't feasible, then perhaps add Raid save points or chapters like in Living World story instances.

> For myself and I am certain many others, it isn't a lack of desire to participate in Raids. It isn't an inability to learn, or min max my way in to a perfect party composition for a challenge - it's that I work an almost full time physically demanding job with an erratic schedule and I have life responsibilities. My free time is not on a consistent schedule.

>

> Imagine if you could Raid in smaller chunks

>

> You could argue that is what Strikes are for but my counter argument is that Strikes will not teach you what you are going to face in a Raid. Fractals have an easy version to teach you what to do so that you aren't totally free falling when you finally work your way up to the hard version, which Strikes do not do. However, making difficulty levels for Raids doesn't seem to be something on the table. The compromise then is logically to cut it up in to smaller pieces because that would allow people who want to do it all at once and maintain the - I guess "purity" of the challenge - to do that, while people who have less time can also participate and experience the challenge.

>

> Thoughts?

> I mean I want to get in to Raids so bad. The rewards look so worth it.

> I just. Don't. Have. Time.

> Even now. My work is considered essential so I still don't have the kind of time to dedicate that I would need.

 

I don't understand how they could break it into smaller chunks than they already have. Currently the only really difficult checkpoint to get is Dhuum and you can probably buy one of those. Well. Or maybe Mursaat Overseer since anyone who does Cairn also does Mursaat.

 

Basically once you complete a boss you can return to where you were anytime that week. Say you kill Vale Guardian on Wednesday. Until Monday you can go right back there.

 

If you mean you want to pick up where you were the next week, unless it's right at reset you can just ask in the raid lobby if anyone has an instance with a vg clear. Then the tag and that person go into the instance, you thank (or pay) that person, they leave group, you invite your group, you all enter, and carry on from there.

 

We went weeks skipping to Quadim to save time. Now repeating that with Dhuum.

 

I don't think it would be fair or right to have save points during the boss.

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Obfuscate.6430" said:

> If making an easy, normal and hard mode isn't feasible, then perhaps add Raid save points or chapters like in Living World story instances.

> For myself and I am certain many others, it isn't a lack of desire to participate in Raids. It isn't an inability to learn, or min max my way in to a perfect party composition for a challenge - it's that I work an almost full time physically demanding job with an erratic schedule and I have life responsibilities. My free time is not on a consistent schedule.

>

> Imagine if you could Raid in smaller chunks

>

> You could argue that is what Strikes are for but my counter argument is that Strikes will not teach you what you are going to face in a Raid. Fractals have an easy version to teach you what to do so that you aren't totally free falling when you finally work your way up to the hard version, which Strikes do not do. However, making difficulty levels for Raids doesn't seem to be something on the table. The compromise then is logically to cut it up in to smaller pieces because that would allow people who want to do it all at once and maintain the - I guess "purity" of the challenge - to do that, while people who have less time can also participate and experience the challenge.

>

> Thoughts?

> I mean I want to get in to Raids so bad. The rewards look so worth it.

> I just. Don't. Have. Time.

> Even now. My work is considered essential so I still don't have the kind of time to dedicate that I would need.

 

Raids already are split up like that - you can choose going in which wing you do and progress through a wing is saved until the end of the week when it resets. There's very little in them apart from the bosses and _if_ you get it right the boss fights can be pretty quick. The reason it often takes a long time, especially for casual or training groups is getting it right is complicated and if you mess up the entire encounter resets and has to be done again. I'm not sure it's possible to break raids into smaller chunks than they already are.

 

Also I'm in exactly the same situation when it comes to finding time for raids. I couldn't join a static raid group (or even a conventional training group) because I can't commit to being online at the same time each week, and it's difficult to know when I start how long I'll be able to stay online. But even so the time required to complete raids isn't a problem for me. The difficulty is finding people who are available at the same time I am, who aren't demanding hundreds of Li or other proof that I've already done it dozens of times over. And again making the raids shorter wouldn't help with that.

 

Even though I feel like time is my main barrier to raiding more often I really don't think there's anything Anet could do to make it quicker. A 'practice mode' would probably be more effective at making them more accessible, but that would be difficult to do right. The obvious way is to reduce the bosses stats so they have less health and do less damage, but a lot of the tricky parts aren't about dealing enough damage to take the boss down, that's relatively easy. It's other things like standing in the right places during Slothasor or taking out the cannons during the Sabetha fight which make it tricky and making those mechanics simpler is more difficult. It's even more difficult to do it in a way which prepares them for the 'real' version.

 

That is the idea with strikes, but as you said they don't necessarily match up exactly and it's not obvious which mechanics from strikes appear on which raid bosses, at least not in advance. But the solution there would be to add something to tell you how they match up, like an NPC (an asura or Priory member probably) who is struggling the strike bosses and can tell you how their tactics compare to raid bosses.

[Lexi.1398]

I don't know if it'd be possible to split raids into smaller chunks, like, if you could start a boss at x phase with y percent of health already gone, it wouldn't be the same content. They already save progress done in the wing already - like if you do escort, KC and TC and then leave the instance, the next time you enter wing 3 it'll be xera, until weekly reset occurs on sunday night.

 

Raiders have for a long time wanted the ability to freely open instances that they met the requirements to do reguardless of kill progress- so someone who fully cleared wing 5 could give you statues and dhuum instances that week anyway, as an example.

 

If you want the ability to open instances regaurdless of killed bosses *without* getting the clear that week, i dunno. While i like the idea, i don't really have a problem with the current system and i like how most raid wings are designed to gradually build on mechanics.

 

Most boss timers are sub 12 minutes, taking 2~ pulls per boss wings take less than hour to clear all the bosses in it.

 

 

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Lexi.1398" said:

> I don't know if it'd be possible to split raids into smaller chunks, like, if you could start a boss at x phase with y percent of health already gone, it wouldn't be the same content. They already save progress done in the wing already - like if you do escort, KC and TC and then leave the instance, the next time you enter wing 3 it'll be xera, until weekly reset occurs on sunday night.

>

> Raiders have for a long time wanted the ability to freely open instances that they met the requirements to do reguardless of kill progress- so someone who fully cleared wing 5 could give you statues and dhuum instances that week anyway, as an example.

>

> If you want the ability to open instances regaurdless of killed bosses *without* getting the clear that week, i dunno. While i like the idea, i don't really have a problem with the current system and i like how most raid wings are designed to gradually build on mechanics.

>

> Most boss timers are sub 12 minutes, taking 2~ pulls per boss wings take less than hour to clear all the bosses in it.

>

>

 

I think the OP didn't know that the Raids already have a checkpoint system and thought you had to clear the thing in one go, not that you had an entire week to clear a wing, which I don't think has been explained very well to the player base. As for the total time, you've sort of confirmed what I've heard since Raids were introduced, unlike other games that could take 3 to 4 hours to complete a Raid, the GW2 ones have been specifically designed to be completed in 60 - 90 minutes total.

 

Might help for some to understand too that the checkpoint system doesn't mean you restart at the last boss you killed, but that you don't have to kill the bosses you already killed when you left the last time, just get to the next boss in the Raid when you start again.

[Taygus.4571]

> @"Obfuscate.6430" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > Just work on one boss or event encounter. I don’t see what you’re really asking Anet to do which you cannot already do yourself.

>

> Because I want to experience the whole Raid, I want to see and experience the whole story. I want to experience the entire Raid for myself. I don't want to just learn how to defeat the first boss and be stuck fighting that one boss every time I wanted to experience the Raid. Nor do I want to just jump in to a party JUST to kill a boss, without seeing the rest of the story.

> If Raids had smaller chunks, people with time constraints can experience all of it.

> It doesn't actually affect anything else about the Raids themselves.

>

 

you can tho.. you don't have to every boss in one go.

It even saves them for 1 week. (if you do them in order).

 

Raid bosses are actually very fast. The time consuming part comes from lack of skill. I'm not sure how you expect checkpoints to change that. where would checkpoints be? How long would they last? how would they affect rewards?

Why do you assume these checkpoints will take less dev time than difficulty options?

[sokeenoppa.5384]

It takes something between 2 minutes to 8 minutes to kill a raid boss. LFG has lot of squafs that are almost full and just looking for one or two more players. I cant see how times is a proplem unless you are looking for a full clear.

 

"Imagine if you could Raid in smaller chunks". We can. Once you have killed one boss, it creates a checkpoint to next boss, you can now enter to that next boss any time during the same week.

You can just kill few bosses every now and then in any order you want. You wanna kill last boss of w6? You dont have to kill first 2 bosses, with an opener you can go directly to the last boss.

 

" The compromise then is logically to cut it up in to smaller pieces". This has been done already. We have 7 raid wings where each wing has 3 or 4 bosses. You can kill the bosses or the wings in any order as you want. If you have killed a first boss from first raid wing, second boss is open for you the whole week, even if you would kill other bosses from other wings between.

[Clyan.1593]

Raids really don't take too much effort if you understand your class and play a proper build. What you have to do is go to youtube, watch a guide on how to beat the boss you want to kill and then go in with a raid training squad. You might fail a few times, but after a while it becomes natural, you will learn the encounters and what skills to take. After a while you know everything by heart.

Hardest thing about it is learning the rotations, and if you have trouble with that play staff thief for power dps and condi mirage for condi dps. Or if you want to heal and support the group play druid. Tanking might be a bit more difficult - I don't know about that since i never did it.

And as already mentioned above the bosses allow for an encounter to be 10 minutes max, after that the event will either wipe the squad or the boss becomes significantly stronger. So basically its 10 minutes per boss.

Unlike some elitists might want to tell you, raids are not that hard. It's certainly among the hardest stuff to do in GW2, but still not hard objectively except for a few bosses like dhuum for example. You just need to understand what your role is about and then do it. To be honest I find Fractal CMs harder than most Raid bosses, because visually they are a crazy mess and the mechanics are much much faster.

 

Many casual players go for Wing4 first, because that one has some really easy bosses.

 

There is really no need to change the raids or add new modes for it to allow lower effort, it's already quite easy, you just have to commit to it. Also time is not an issue since you have 7 days for 25 bosses if you want to do all of them. That makes for 3-4 bosses every evening, which in total will take you about 1-1.5 hours since you also have to navigate the maps, do a few events inbetween and so on.

 

When I started raiding I was intimidated aswell, but honestly all it took was a proper build, some youtube videos and a squad willing to play seriously. I learned Wing1-4 in 2 weeks and then went on to clear them every week along with learning Wing5-6 and Wing7 when it came out.

 

Here's a list of easy encounters:

 

Cairn (W4)

Mursaat (W4)

Samarog (W4)

Cardinal Sabir (W7)

Cardinal Adina (W7)

Conjured Amalgamate (W6)

Keep Construct (W3)

Gorseval (W1)

 

 

[HotDelirium.7984]

I agree with you and some others here. Difficulty modes from fractals seem to be such an obvious transition I'm not sure why they didn't do that for raids. There is significant story in these raids and many of us have to resort begrudgingly to Youtube just to experience it. I guarantee you a majority of players would play these difficulty levels like they do with strike missions. I do like your idea of breaking up each boss as its own instance. That could and should work. Does it break up some of the story and momentum? Maybe but the pay off is instanced content. They did say story mode raids are not off the table but it will probably be years away from now. They did just announce they will try to do world 3 and 4 of SAB so as you can see they have an interesting priority list of content they wish to develop.

-RAYMERA

[Etria.3642]

> @"HotDelirium.7984" said:

> I agree with you and some others here. Difficulty modes from fractals seem to be such an obvious transition I'm not sure why they didn't do that for raids. There is significant story in these raids and many of us have to resort begrudgingly to Youtube just to experience it. I guarantee you a majority of players would play these difficulty levels like they do with strike missions**. I do like your idea of breaking up each boss as its own instance. **That could and should work. Does it break up some of the story and momentum? Maybe but the pay off is instanced content. They did say story mode raids are not off the table but it will probably be years away from now. They did just announce they will try to do world 3 and 4 of SAB so as you can see they have an interesting priority list of content they wish to develop.

> -RAYMERA

 

I am not quite sure how we can put it more plainly to folks who have not yet raided. You can already do this. Want to do just Mursaat Overseer, who is arguably almost a dps dummy? Just ask in the raid lobby for an MO instance. Or, with your own group, clear Cairn(the boss preceeding MO) one day and leisurely meander over to MO on another. The only time ever you will need to work your way up is right smack dab after the weekly reset, since no one will have a lockout yet. Raids are not like fractals, where it resets when you leave.