Sustain is a monster

[EremiteAngel.9765]

With the recent Armageddon patch nuking DPS from orbit, it has catapulted sustain builds into the stratosphere.

Something needs to be done because offense and defense should be balanced.

 

Full Berserker DPS can't kill Full Minstrel Defense build = normal.

The strongest offense should not break the strongest defense = normal.

 

But Full glass DPS must be able to kill non-minstrel sustain builds.

Sustain builds that are not tuned to strongest defense must be killable by full DPS builds.

 

But right now, full glass DPS builds are struggling to beat even non-minstrel sustain builds.

Sustain needs to be toned down lower because full glass DPS builds are still getting grinded to death by non-minstrel sustain builds (Soldiers/Trailblazers etc).

 

And the worst offender is Core Necromancer.

Nerf this sustain monster in the next patch.

Other classes that might also need a look at are bunker-sustain rangers and torment-sustain revs.

But if there is one spec that needs that mighty nerf bat on its sustain in the next patch, its Core Necro.

[Shroud.2307]

If core Necro gets gutted because of the ape magnet Signet build I may literally quit the game. I've just been starting to enjoy core again, and not with a Condition or Signet build, and I keep having this paranoia that ANet is going to ruin it again.

I'm still incredibly bitter about the change to Doom. It has _always_ had an animation ( a dark cloud appears over your head with a Reaper in it ) and it only does damage with Terror. It can be cleansed because it's a Condition, half the time it missed even when it was instant, and it allowed for actual skillful game play because you could use it to interrupt important skills or as a defense while CC'd. I can't do things like interrupting a Thief trying to leap through a smoke field anymore because it has a stupid cast time. It feels _less_ skillful now because everything in Shroud has an aftercast so you can't reliably combo it with anything meaningful. You just occasionally use it on exiting Shroud to Axe 2 or something.

 

/rant.

 

I agree there are a lot of things that are obnoxiously tanky right now, but in general I'm not having too much trouble. Most of what there is was just as annoying before the patch; Prot Holo, Boonbeast, TB Necro, etc. Builds like these are unavoidable. So long as there isn't an abundance, which there was more of prior to the patch, I think it's okay.

 

This is another of those things I feel relatively neutral about. I could care less if sustain stays as is or if it's nerfed, fights don't feel a whole lot different to me with the exception of finding different builds becoming more popular. There are outliers that are possible candidates for nerfs, but again those will always manage to exist in some form or other. At least right now the worst of them are more problematic in 1 v 1's than they are in group fights, which is good.

[Sovereign.1093]

:/ well, rip them boons with your spell breaker and necro and burn guard and condi rev, then boom. Dead in 3 seconds.

 

Coordinate your bombs. Things didn't change that much.

 

Also minstrel ppl can't hurt you even in mass if you've got a team synergy.

 

Hell even Pvt does 7 to 8k if it's Pvt zerker on hoelbrak with energy and force. Add power food and bloodlust . Then you got og damage

 

Hell people die from acs now and my team loves to bail and mount and pounce. Also you got your dragon barney

[aspirine.6852]

Perhaps the sustain nerf will kill some of the blobbing.. I doubt it though.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> Perhaps the sustain nerf will kill some of the blobbing.. I doubt it though.

 

It is more likely to cause people to blob in order to herd protect.

 

In the least , for purposes of being revived faster.

 

There's always the 2 vs 1 blob style. Where one team Bates the blob and the other goes for the backline.

 

Very efficient.

[Tao.5096]

Well, last balance patch did create a lot more cancerous builds than before.

 

We have condition Druids roaming who heal up from 10% to full in a second, and are extremely tanky.

We have condition Core Necros which are almost immortal.

We still have Spellbreakers which heal like a boss, are very tanky and hit hard due to easy 25 might stacking.

We still have Power Shiro Revenants who are tanky and hit hard...(that issue was never addressed by Anet since HoT release - are they scared of reworking it?)

 

Anet did nerf Scourge conditions (mainly Torment and Burn which was already limited), but somehow left perma condition spam for Mesmer and on top of that, did give life to Mallyx Revenant which spams Burn and Torment hard and in a very AoE matter.

 

The thing thast was good actually in that patch is that toughness started to matter and Thief doesn't kill in 2 hits like before - I actually started to play Thief and I really love that you really need to fight for a kill and not just yolo 90% win chance.

 

It pretty much shows that Anet has barely any plan than just shifting the power from class to class and not making specs (power and condition) viable for each class, but be effective in it's actual role (roaming, small team, snipping, zerging).

 

But what they do is they actually cut the class entirely through all the roles and make it useless.

 

I have no high hopes for next balance patch - I'm afraid there won't be any changes that actually should be done and were addressed numerous times in the past.

[Galmac.4680]

"Oh, my full dps berserker can't win every fight from now on!" Sorry, but that's mimimi to me. And of course, and as always, the necro is guilty.

~grabsPopcorn~

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> With the recent Armageddon patch nuking DPS from orbit

Meanwhile, people are still getting instakilled on zerg pushes.

[Sovereign.1093]

Maybe some new blood are just that. New to wvw and don't know how to play yet.

 

I mean I would recommend start with core guard on shout runes with staff gs. Learn to play the game with the pugs and coms or groups then learn to fb.

 

Core guard is pretty good starting class

 

If you've gone to ore, you can trade on melandrus temple for Pvt melandru gear.

 

For warriors core war is a good place to start the shout warn and then transition to shout breaker.

 

Dd base ele to dh tempest or dd Weaver.

 

There are somethings you shouldn't by pass. Even the necro. Play the core Wells then go to scourge or reaper.

 

Reminds me I should do that stack roll again and bomb as one every raid. Make it mechanical.

 

Also most players look at the enemy instead of the floor. Floor watching us more critical so you avoid bombs.

 

Also keep an eye on your boon condi bar on top or right of your utilities. You can use basic skills to counter them.

 

 

Tldr.

 

We assume ppl know how play but they normally do not. Even if they are vets. Coordination is learned.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

My 2c:

 

The great balance patch was a whiff. They should have done something like a hard cap on the added damage multipliers including crit damage rather than tinker with all the coefficients. They left so many skills/class mechanics left untouched that there are egregious skills on most classes, while some classes had their DPS almost completely gutted. Condi was untouched which was a mistake. And sustain was gutted on some classes but not others.

 

They need to first reduce the coefficients on the skills that they forgot about, reduce the sustain on the skills/mechanics that they forgot about, and then go through and raise the coefficients on the now underperforming skills.

 

Dazes, knockbacks, pulls, and pushes should have their damage returned. Classes without many active forms of defense should have their sustain reworked, in the case of necro they need less damage reduction in shroud but better access to stab and warrior needs Defy Pain and Last Stand reworked.

[Swagger.1459]

Modern day pvper... “5 seconds is way too long to kill something, nerf it!”

 

Modern day GW2 pvper... “it didn’t die to my opener, nerf it!”

 

Old school pvper... “It didn’t die in 5 seconds or to an opener, so what’s the problem here?”

 

... On another serious note, wvw is a mass combat zone where, regardless of tanky build or not, you can still get zeroed in seconds. Take all your sustain complaints over to the esports section where it belongs.

 

Additionally, for the op, whether you like it or not, this is not duel wars. You record duel stuff Inside of wvw and post nerf suggestions based off of duels, but that’s not what this game is designed for... Necro is supposed to be tankier bc it lacks all the fancy survival tools found spread out on other professions, and all your suggestions aim to do is screw over Necro. It’s easy to win over a necro, it’s called kite and wait out shroud, so be careful what you wish for because then you’ll be back to making those videos complaining about getting ripped apart and asking for nerfs on other professions like you have for years.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> Modern day pvper... “5 seconds is way too long to kill something, nerf it!”

>

> Modern day GW2 pvper... “it didn’t die to my opener, nerf it!”

>

> Old school pvper... “It didn’t die in 5 seconds or to an opener, so what’s the problem here?”

>

> ... On another serious note, wvw is a mass combat zone where, regardless of tanky build or not, you can still get zeroed in seconds. Take all your sustain complaints over to the esports section where it belongs.

>

> Additionally, for the op, whether you like it or not, this is not duel wars. You record duel stuff Inside of wvw and post nerf suggestions based off of duels, but that’s not what this game is designed for... Necro is supposed to be tankier bc it lacks all the fancy survival tools found spread out on other professions, and all your suggestions aim to do is screw over Necro. It’s easy to win over a necro, it’s called kite and wait out shroud, so be careful what you wish for because then you’ll be back to making those videos complaining about getting ripped apart and asking for nerfs on other professions like you have for years.

 

This is true. On my riffle zerk core war. I just 111 necro with it. And cleanse with trooper run and run away with my warhorn and eventually it just dies because it can't catch me.

[Junkpile.7439]

Soulbeast and holosmith are worst offenders. Pointless even try to kill them.

[Bish.8627]

I think sustain can be looked at once some skills are capped at damage, still plenty hitting over 8k, and imob especially then CC is looked at.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > With the recent Armageddon patch nuking DPS from orbit

> Meanwhile, people are still getting instakilled on zerg pushes.

 

Well this comes from the numbers at least there is a difference from before one zerg can't instant kill another zerg 'under fair circumstances'. Before that we had revenant with an unblockable attack trait . What guilds did was basically go with this trait as Herold(on hammer) and getting around 5 Renegades on 50 man which covers the ferocity trait in the same column+ alacrity. Alone with this they nucked everything with no possible defence except doing the same and being the one who hit first or attack out of stealth . (which they do anyway)On top of that they also run their HFB with quickness.

 

This was basically **the meta ** which weren't on meta battle except the wvw Renegades built I know funny .(sarcastic)

 

What I mean with under fair circumstances ? Well the line up so far their aren't big difference in numbers. I saw that from very different povs over the years when you have a lot of nonsense in your zerg you can still be instant be killed as a zerg same goes for surprise attacks.

 

About the line up I can only say besides the standard line up and that above you also need a sec heal which is also meta since end 2018

From what I see the high end guild using 5 Scrapper + 5 Tempest on 50 as heal .

 

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Tbh, if any class has to have stupid sustain, I'm kinda ok with it being necro given it lacks mobility, dodges, stealth, blocks etc etc. I have more of a problem with classes that HAVE those mechanics and yet still have excellent sustain through passive heals and boons tbh, and that's a balance issue on it's own. Think about it, if everyone has the same damage output, why would you choose the classes with little sustain and active defense over the ones that have plenty of it? Damage and sustain ought to have an inversely proportional relationship, and for some builds that's just not the case.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I need my 10 target perma regen thats heals for 1,2k per second.

 

How else am i gonna keep my braindead zerglings alive?

[Ubi.4136]

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> With the recent Armageddon patch nuking DPS from orbit, it has catapulted sustain builds into the stratosphere.

> Something needs to be done because offense and defense should be balanced.

>

> Full Berserker DPS can't kill Full Minstrel Defense build = normal.

> The strongest offense should not break the strongest defense = normal.

>

> But Full glass DPS must be able to kill non-minstrel sustain builds.

> Sustain builds that are not tuned to strongest defense must be killable by full DPS builds.

>

> But right now, full glass DPS builds are struggling to beat even non-minstrel sustain builds.

> Sustain needs to be toned down lower because full glass DPS builds are still getting grinded to death by non-minstrel sustain builds (Soldiers/Trailblazers etc).

>

> And the worst offender is Core Necromancer.

> Nerf this sustain monster in the next patch.

> Other classes that might also need a look at are bunker-sustain rangers and torment-sustain revs.

> But if there is one spec that needs that mighty nerf bat on its sustain in the next patch, its Core Necro.

 

Honestly, I find the sustain on tempest and revenant builds to be much worse than core necro. Even soulbeast and holosmith are worse offenders.

[Voltekka.2375]

Meta is still power, however...

[ollbirtan.2915]

Core necro is a free loot bag. If your are a roamer --- this is purely l2p issue from your side.

[Oogabooga.3812]

There are still power builds that hit too hard, such as mesmer and ranger, but spell breaker has finally been tuned down from god-level damage. Have you tried a yolo berserker? That thing can not only do the greatsword triple spin once and down people, but can rinse and repeat that 4 more times within the one berserk mode. No one can take all that and live. Of course, if you miss, you die, so it lives up to its name.

 

Glass cannons not instant-dying work even better in zergs now; we are seeing fewer pirate ship blobs. Those that are still a pirate ship usually die to melee trains, as they should.

 

Myself I like using tempest now and will run glass in a small or big group and survive pretty well. I don’t 1 shot people or bust zergs by myself anymore (unless I use the not-yet-nerfed loot stick), but I do tend to get zergs’ attention to myself trying to break them because they do feel it.

 

 

 

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

stop with this. buff damage since that's the problem. if you start messing with other mechanics then those mechanics could get messed up too.

[Sovereign.1093]

It is a learn to mix and match weapons runes armor and traits thing including food and profession. >∆< not many take time to think about it. It is a rare thinking issue

[XenesisII.1540]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> Tbh, if any class has to have stupid sustain, I'm kinda ok with it being necro given it lacks mobility, dodges, stealth, blocks etc etc.

 

How does Necro lack dodges? did they get nerfed like mirage? do they not have the same access to sigil of energy or endurance foods?

Mobility? maybe even though they have three teleports, with base having two of them.

They do lack blocks/invuls since all their weapons are offense oriented, but scourge have barriers.

 

In any case I think necros are in a good place at the moment, to me boons is the main offender that still needs looking at.

 

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> :/ well, rip them boons with your spell breaker and necro and burn guard and condi rev, then boom. Dead in 3 seconds.

>

> Coordinate your bombs. Things didn't change that much.

>

> Also minstrel ppl can't hurt you even in mass if you've got a team synergy.

>

> Hell even Pvt does 7 to 8k if it's Pvt zerker on hoelbrak with energy and force. Add power food and bloodlust . Then you got og damage

>

> Hell people die from acs now and my team loves to bail and mount and pounce. Also you got your dragon barney

 

So how many necro and warriors would you expect to run to try and kill a 40-50 person boon sharing blob?

That blob still exist btw, it's running in t1/t2 during prime time.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > Tbh, if any class has to have stupid sustain, I'm kinda ok with it being necro given it lacks mobility, dodges, stealth, blocks etc etc.

>

> How does Necro lack dodges? did they get nerfed like mirage? do they not have the same access to sigil of energy or endurance foods?

> Mobility? maybe even though they have three teleports, with base having two of them.

> They do lack blocks/invuls since all their weapons are offense oriented, but scourge have barriers.

>

> In any case I think necros are in a good place at the moment, to me boons is the main offender that still needs looking at.

>

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > :/ well, rip them boons with your spell breaker and necro and burn guard and condi rev, then boom. Dead in 3 seconds.

> >

> > Coordinate your bombs. Things didn't change that much.

> >

> > Also minstrel ppl can't hurt you even in mass if you've got a team synergy.

> >

> > Hell even Pvt does 7 to 8k if it's Pvt zerker on hoelbrak with energy and force. Add power food and bloodlust . Then you got og damage

> >

> > Hell people die from acs now and my team loves to bail and mount and pounce. Also you got your dragon barney

>

> So how many necro and warriors would you expect to run to try and kill a 40-50 person boon sharing blob?

> That blob still exist btw, it's running in t1/t2 during prime time.

 

1 of those per party. :bleep_bloop:

 

I've shared the 5 classes you can stack in a different thread.

 

Here I'll recap the four

 

 

Fb spell rev scourge x :bleep_bloop: