A complete turret rework is long overdue

[Yasai.3549]

I would like to have Turrets just consolidated into a Turret kit and confined to 1 utility slot

Turrets are mostly fine if they didn't take all yur utility slots.

 

Turret Kit :

1. Repair Turret (basically, Toolkit's 1 skill, but given more range)

2. Flame Turret

3. Thumper Turret

4. Rifle Turret

5. Net Turret

 

 

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> I would like to have Turrets just consolidated into a Turret kit and confined to 1 utility slot

> Turrets are mostly fine if they didn't take all yur utility slots.

>

> Turret Kit :

> 1. Repair Turret (basically, Toolkit's 1 skill, but given more range)

> 2. Flame Turret

> 3. Thumper Turret

> 4. Rifle Turret

> 5. Net Turret

>

>

 

Don't really agree with that.

Engineer already is too focused on kits. We don't need gadgets and turrets to become kits, too, but we need them to actually be worth on their own to consider slotting them in.

 

And also engineer is standing out already between the classes as the only one (except revenant) that just has 4 skill types in core instead of 5. Throwing the balance in our utility skills even more off by making these turrets a kit would be hella weird.

[Xaylin.1860]

While specific skins per race would be nice, I personally don't need it. Too much work for too small impact.

 

However, why not make Turrets work more like Supply Crate?

* Drop a Turret at a specific range (might vary depending on Turret), basically return of Deployable Turret

* The "drop" is a blast finisher

* Health decreases over time just like Spirits, so you can't camp up

* The active attacts might have to be buffed accordingly.

* Overcharges become Detonation skills

 

This way we could keep Experimental Turrets. Maybe Boon application would have to be buffed, but the reflection would still make sense.

 

The only issue I see here: It could lead to too much of fire and forget. But it still more playable than it currently is. Plus, it prevents botting.

[The V.8759]

I think we should think further out of the box. There's another class that has a useless skillset in a similar category: Spirit weapons on Guardians.

 

I think we should let go of the idea that turrets remain in place for a long time. The game is simply not made for it. I would rather see the following:

**Spirit Weapons and Turrets become the same category**

Pairing them up in the same category would allow them to interact in possible future runes (such as shouts and traps have runes). This would also streamline in how these skills function. Just need a good name for this category.

 

**How category functions**

Typical about the category would be that they all summon a weapon thats does effect _ x_ and then **disappears**. All of them would have ammunition mehcanics. Yes, even healing turret. Overcharge skills would disappear.

 

An example of how skills would look (don't take in account balancing too much):

 

**Healing turret**

Count recharge: 10s

Casts: 2

Cooldown between casts: 4s.

Only does current overcharge ability on cast (no initial heal). Overcharge happens immediatly after summoning.

 

**Rifle turret**

Count recharge: 20s

Casts: 2

Cooldown between casts: 2,5s

Does its's current overcharge ability on cast. Adjusted to shoot an enemy every 0.5s, lasting 5 seconds.

 

**Rocket turret**

Count recharge: 30s

Casts: 2

Cooldown between casts: 10s

Rain down a barrage of rockets in the selected area (similar to artillery strike, charr racial), but rather fired from a turret that deploys at your locations after selecting the AoE location. So actual projectiles are used. It should follow a similar projectile path as the rocket toolbelt skill, but a slightly higher velocity.

 

**Thumper turret**

Count recharge: 40s

Casts: 2

Cooldown between casts: 15s

Use it's current overcharge ability, otherwise unchanged.

 

**Flame turret**

Count recharge: 30s.

Casts: 2

Cooldown between casts: 8s

Deploy a flame turret at the target location. The flame turret engulfs the area around it in flames (similar to flame bomb), pusling burning and ticking damage. After 3 seconds, it leaves a blackened area, leaving a smoke field that pulses blind 3 times.

 

**Net turret**

_This skill should definetly be reworked into something more fitting of a turret. Something that immobilizes is good, but I think it fits better to have it be similar to 'Muddy Terrain' from the ranger: Immobilize in an area and apply something like slow. Example:_

**Freezing Turret**

Count recharge: 30s

Casts: 2

Cooldown between casts: 5

Chill the targeted area around the turret, applying chilled every second for x seconds. On the last tick of the turret, stun enemies in the radius and apply frost aura to allies in the radius.

 

One last important thing:

**All turrets scale off your own stats**

[Kodama.6453]

> @"The V.8759" said:

 

At this point, turrets would just become fancy animations for different skills with charge counters. And oftenly associated with CC (freeze turret, rocket turret, thumper turret).

 

This sounds really familiar. It is actually the same treatment they have already given to gadgets.

Gadgets also are just fancy animations for different skill effects. They are often associated with CC (slick shoes, AED toolbelt, personal battering ram, throw mine) and some of them have charge counters (rocket boots, personal battering ram).

 

Sorry, but this is not "thinking outside of the box", this is literally just repeating what they already did with another skill category for the engineer in a past rework.

And I think the whole charge mechanic fits better on the gadgets.

 

Might be that we have to find a different approach for turrets, but this is definitely not it. Having 2 skill types which are basically the very same mechanic, just with different names, is extremely boring and uninspired.

[Samug.6512]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"The V.8759" said:

> _snip_

 

No, I actually like that idea. Turrets are summons that exist for a few seconds and are invulnerable and indestructible, nothing close to gadgets. Their animation could be similar to supply crate, dropping down in a crate that disintegrates, leaving a turret behind. I guess you mean to copy the spirit weapons mechanics and let us choose a location to summon them, say, 900 radius around the caster? Then there's plenty of space for traits and improvements - CC upon summoning, increasing skill ammo, lowering its recharge time. I like this idea for thumper turret which could be used to push enemies both **away** or **towards** you.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Samug.6512" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"The V.8759" said:

> > _snip_

>

> No, I actually like that idea. Turrets are summons that exist for a few seconds and are invulnerable and indestructible, nothing close to gadgets. Their animation could be similar to supply crate, dropping down in a crate that disintegrates, leaving a turret behind. I guess you mean to copy the spirit weapons mechanics and let us choose a location to summon them, say, 900 radius around the caster? Then there's plenty of space for traits and improvements - CC upon summoning, increasing skill ammo, lowering its recharge time. I like this idea for thumper turret which could be used to push enemies both **away** or **towards** you.

 

First things first: He said that Thumper Turret gets no changes to the overcharge. Thumper Turret's overcharge launch distance is 0, meaning that the enemies are just cced at the place they are currently standing. You won't be able to push them away or towards you, they would literally just fall on their back at their current location.

 

I consider you to be familiar with engineer, which makes the fact that you don't know this about turrets quite shocking....

 

But let's assume that we would change the overcharge to actually launch foes a distance again, like in the past (even if he specifically stated in his post that the overcharge remains unchanged).

 

How is that any different from Throw Mine, except that you have 2 charges?

They use different animations, one is throwing a mine, the other deploying a "turret". But both would push the enemy away from the center of the ability. You **can already use Throw Mine** in the way you want to use Thumper Turret here.

Additionally, Throw Mine removes a boon, deals more damage, counts as an explosion for traits, has 15 seconds cooldown, which is the same as the cooldown between charges of the Thumper Turret in his example, but after using the 2 charges the CD of Throw Mine is just superior.

Throw Mine is also unblockable and can get used as a trap beforehand.

 

And if turrets become indestructible and invulnerable.... Then it doesn't matter anymore that they are summons. They are really just fancy animations at this point.

[The V.8759]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"The V.8759" said:

>

> At this point, turrets would just become fancy animations for different skills with charge counters. And oftenly associated with CC (freeze turret, rocket turret, thumper turret).

>

> This sounds really familiar. It is actually the same treatment they have already given to gadgets.

> Gadgets also are just fancy animations for different skill effects. They are often associated with CC (slick shoes, AED toolbelt, personal battering ram, throw mine) and some of them have charge counters (rocket boots, personal battering ram).

>

> Sorry, but this is not "thinking outside of the box", this is literally just repeating what they already did with another skill category for the engineer in a past rework.

> And I think the whole charge mechanic fits better on the gadgets.

>

> Might be that we have to find a different approach for turrets, but this is definitely not it. Having 2 skill types which are basically the very same mechanic, just with different names, is extremely boring and uninspired.

 

I get what you're coming from, but trying to keep to make turrets 'different', as a static boring things that gets killed anyways, feels like beaitng a dead horse. I'dd rather have a skillset that is not as 'special' but actually usefull. I'm pretty confident if we want turrets to be things that stay on the battlefield, it is going to be another fail, more recourses wasted.

[Vancho.8750]

Be careful what you wish for, remember what happened to Warrior Banners.

[Samug.6512]

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> Be careful what you wish for, remember what happened to Warrior Banners.

 

What's wrong with banners? The last big change I am aware of if they were remade to behave as turrets, in a sense that you can pick them up to lower the cd, which I found good, also nobody every cared about picking them up and using the banner skills anyway.

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> I consider you to be familiar with engineer, which makes the fact that you don't know this about turrets quite shocking....

 

ok? I'll let you know as soon as I start caring about others' opinion on me.

[Vancho.8750]

> @"Samug.6512" said:

> > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > Be careful what you wish for, remember what happened to Warrior Banners.

>

> What's wrong with banners? The last big change I am aware of if they were remade to behave as turrets, in a sense that you can pick them up to lower the cd, which I found good, also nobody every cared about picking them up and using the banner skills anyway.

>

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > I consider you to be familiar with engineer, which makes the fact that you don't know this about turrets quite shocking....

>

> ok? I'll let you know as soon as I start caring about others' opinion on me.

The banners are literal stat sticks, warrior is about momentum and picking up sticks to plant them again breaks the momentum since they have only blast finisher on them when planted, if they had better active component it would have been better.

The thing is people want something to be useful but when Arenanet reworks it and makes it useful, it also ends up boring and somewhat clunky.

[Rezzet.3614]

i hate the anti minion mentality and excuse some people use for engineers when necromancer and ranger exist , in necromancer's case their minions have 50% damage reduction via armor as well as 25% more sustain and damage via traits + life stealand also buffing the summoner while alive and they too have "overcharges" and are mobile and can crit .

[Yasai.3549]

They can change the current Experimental Turret trait to allow an Engi to pick up a turret and use it, pulsing the Boon around themselves.

- Example being, if they drop Rifle Turret, they can then pick it up and use Rifle Turret like a kit, manually firing its auto attack.

- They can pulse that particular Boon around themselves, allowing them to move around groups and give everyone Boons.

- Gives Engineer more options to attack with, if they are playing something like Scrapper with Hammer or Pistol/Shield.

 

Each time they pick up a Turret :

- They can deploy the shield which reflects projectiles from the original trait, which has only 1 charge.

- Turret will last 30 seconds or until dropped

 

 

Differences between this proposal and current Experimental Turrets :

- Can no longer drop a bunch of Turrets and let them pulse the Boons, and each having a Reflective Shield.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> i hate the anti minion mentality and excuse some people use for engineers when necromancer and ranger exist , in necromancer's case their minions have 50% damage reduction via armor as well as 25% more sustain and damage via traits + life stealand also buffing the summoner while alive and they too have "overcharges" and are mobile and can crit .

 

The anti-minion mentality is due to the fact that while Necromancer and Ranger exist... Their minions are nearly or actually worthless in PvP/WvW.

 

It's one of the main issues with minions in the game, is that they're intentionally made bad because otherwise it'd be "Unfair" in PvP/WvW to allow them to be at all useful (Though, partially because they all have independent stats meaning you can play full Bunker and have minions/pets/turrets unaffected by your complete lack of offensive stats)

 

It's even more prominent with the control point based sPvP, in which having Turrets be decent can be a way to effectively zone out a control point for a long period of time at little risk (Well, ignoring the fact that a well designed set of turrets would be easily taken out if left alone because most of them have less range than even shorter ranged weapons like SB/Pistol)

 

Though, all this is still just a farce really, given that there have been plenty of games with classes using AI controlled units that have functioned in PvP settings, such as:

 

- WoW's Hunter (This includes after they added Bestial Wrath to make your pet go super saiyan and be unkillable, immune to CC and deal a ton more damage... In a spec where about 60% of your total damage output was from the pet)

 

- WoW's Warlock (This includes both newer age Demonology with its Felguard/Wrathguard that makes up a large portion of its total damage output but also earlier Warlock builds that have for example, used Succubus for its charm ability or Felhunter for purging buffs including some classes 2-5m cooldown spells)

 

- Warhammer Online's White Lion (This even had the most brokenly OP ability in the entire game for its open world PvP - Fetch. Which would allow you to target literally anyone you wanted inside a keep, then your pet would run **THROUGH** the locked and barricaded door, grab that person and then fling them through the wall to directly infront of the WL character themselves and thus into the enemy zerg to be annihilated)

 

- Warhammer Online's Squig Herder (This included some really freaking annoying pets. Like the Spiked Squig was essentially an NPC Bristleback firing a ridiculous stream of high damage spikes at someone. Horned Squig was essentially like those annoying Mushroom Chargers dashing through enemies and knocking them down.)

 

- Warhammer Online's Engineer (They had 3 turrets and each spec specialized in one of them. Gun Turret went with the Rifle build and did single target damage. Flame Turret went with the Bomb build and did short range AoE. Bombard Turret went with the Grenade build and did longer range AoE/CC)

 

- Warhammer Online's Magus (Though, these were always kind of mediocre and were just flat out inferior to Engineer... However, they never had to walk anywhere like a pleb because they floated around on their own personal hover disc which was cool (Also, technically, it was a demon they had summoned))

 

- Anarchy Online's Engineer (Whose entire kit was just making a huge robot who was way stronger than you to beat everyone up. Like, it would be more than 50 levels higher than you if built right to the point where you wouldn't even be able to see what level it was)

 

- Anarchy Online's Bureaucrat (Who had some really strong pets though if anything was OP about them it was always their ridiculous CC they could use to lock people down as well as shut out a lot of their actions by literally using skills called "Red Tape")

 

None of these classes have ever really been a major issue for PvP in their games, even the White Lion with its absolutely crazy skill, was still only particularly good when attacking keeps and only if healers allowed themselves to get targeted (Otherwise it was mediocre at best and forever kited at worst). Even Engineer in Warhammer Online, where many instanced PvP areas where focused on defending a particular location (King of the Hill type modes) weren't overly strong and in fact the strongest aspect about them was their Morale Skill 1 which was a huge knockback and was great on the one map where the entire place was surrounded by Lava.

 

Nothing about GW2's combat systems suggests that properly designed minions/turrets/pets couldn't be functional without being broken. It just requires some actual designing to take place.

[Rezzet.3614]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> > i hate the anti minion mentality and excuse some people use for engineers when necromancer and ranger exist , in necromancer's case their minions have 50% damage reduction via armor as well as 25% more sustain and damage via traits + life stealand also buffing the summoner while alive and they too have "overcharges" and are mobile and can crit .

>

> The anti-minion mentality is due to the fact that while Necromancer and Ranger exist... Their minions are nearly or actually worthless in PvP/WvW.

>

> It's one of the main issues with minions in the game, is that they're intentionally made bad because otherwise it'd be "Unfair" in PvP/WvW to allow them to be at all useful (Though, partially because they all have independent stats meaning you can play full Bunker and have minions/pets/turrets unaffected by your complete lack of offensive stats)

>

> It's even more prominent with the control point based sPvP, in which having Turrets be decent can be a way to effectively zone out a control point for a long period of time at little risk (Well, ignoring the fact that a well designed set of turrets would be easily taken out if left alone because most of them have less range than even shorter ranged weapons like SB/Pistol)

>

> Though, all this is still just a farce really, given that there have been plenty of games with classes using AI controlled units that have functioned in PvP settings, such as:

>

> - WoW's Hunter (This includes after they added Bestial Wrath to make your pet go super saiyan and be unkillable, immune to CC and deal a ton more damage... In a spec where about 60% of your total damage output was from the pet)

>

> - WoW's Warlock (This includes both newer age Demonology with its Felguard/Wrathguard that makes up a large portion of its total damage output but also earlier Warlock builds that have for example, used Succubus for its charm ability or Felhunter for purging buffs including some classes 2-5m cooldown spells)

>

> - Warhammer Online's White Lion (This even had the most brokenly OP ability in the entire game for its open world PvP - Fetch. Which would allow you to target literally anyone you wanted inside a keep, then your pet would run **THROUGH** the locked and barricaded door, grab that person and then fling them through the wall to directly infront of the WL character themselves and thus into the enemy zerg to be annihilated)

>

> - Warhammer Online's Squig Herder (This included some really freaking annoying pets. Like the Spiked Squig was essentially an NPC Bristleback firing a ridiculous stream of high damage spikes at someone. Horned Squig was essentially like those annoying Mushroom Chargers dashing through enemies and knocking them down.)

>

> - Warhammer Online's Engineer (They had 3 turrets and each spec specialized in one of them. Gun Turret went with the Rifle build and did single target damage. Flame Turret went with the Bomb build and did short range AoE. Bombard Turret went with the Grenade build and did longer range AoE/CC)

>

> - Warhammer Online's Magus (Though, these were always kind of mediocre and were just flat out inferior to Engineer... However, they never had to walk anywhere like a pleb because they floated around on their own personal hover disc which was cool (Also, technically, it was a demon they had summoned))

>

> - Anarchy Online's Engineer (Whose entire kit was just making a huge robot who was way stronger than you to beat everyone up. Like, it would be more than 50 levels higher than you if built right to the point where you wouldn't even be able to see what level it was)

>

> - Anarchy Online's Bureaucrat (Who had some really strong pets though if anything was OP about them it was always their ridiculous CC they could use to lock people down as well as shut out a lot of their actions by literally using skills called "Red Tape")

>

> None of these classes have ever really been a major issue for PvP in their games, even the White Lion with its absolutely crazy skill, was still only particularly good when attacking keeps and only if healers allowed themselves to get targeted (Otherwise it was mediocre at best and forever kited at worst). Even Engineer in Warhammer Online, where many instanced PvP areas where focused on defending a particular location (King of the Hill type modes) weren't overly strong and in fact the strongest aspect about them was their Morale Skill 1 which was a huge knockback and was great on the one map where the entire place was surrounded by Lava.

>

> Nothing about GW2's combat systems suggests that properly designed minions/turrets/pets couldn't be functional without being broken. It just requires some actual designing to take place.

 

still whats the excuse for engineer's minions being Useless as a whole even in PvE?

no stat scaling

no armor

low damage

high cooldown

immobile

no crit

no controlable extra effects

despawn after a while

no traitline except for one random trait that is useless unless you run some wierd Minstrel core engi build , but if you can afford minstrel you could afford scrapper so you sure as hell wont use turrets for a boon build, not to mention even if you could get 1000% boon duration turrets would still die instantly , so no boons anyway

sure minions are meant to be intentionally bad , but take a look at necromancers , they got a whole traitline that makes them decent all around plus they have controllable extra abilities for utility, they might be weak on their own but if you ignore them they will chew your hp and slap back all conditions you applied on their summoner .

 

ranger's is good all around depending how you build for it

 

turrets simply exist to die , sometimes before the darn things even visually spawn

 

i dont need turrets on par with min max builds i just need them to be not useless garbage and be fun to some extent , what even is an engineer without cool machines and gadgets an stuff ? apparently an angry hammer wielding maniac so i guess that checks out.

[Rezzet.3614]

seeing how Anet is involved with NCSOFT maybe they can borrow ideas from the ded game Wildstar, their engi had neat robot buddies and some interesting mechanics

[Taril.8619]

> @"Rezzet.3614" said:

> still whats the excuse for engineer's minions being Useless as a whole even in PvE?

 

A case of ANet forgetting that they have the ability to make a split between PvP and PvE versions of skills, so that PvP nerfs impact PvE skill usage.

 

 

[Domino.1359]

I'm going to be honest here: it is really unlikely turret will ever get fixed. It's been broken since the day after they nerfed the turret pushback overcharge (some might even say pre-nerf was broken). There's so many traits and builds spread throughout all professions that need rework and it hasn't come to fruition. Just the basic premise of splitting skills between PvE and PvP like GW1 did is nonexistent for 8 years now.

 

Sorry, I had to add in my pessimism.

[hugo.4705]

I really hope they consider turrets in the incoming balance patch. I feel like it's a fun unique mechanic and had fun using it as core build before expacs came and that they were nerfed. Plus, why they aren't racial... it's stupid seeing asura downgrading to scraps and sylvaris not having vegetal ones.

 

Also before anyone jump in saying in that x class and don't want that y skin, it would be optional like a skin pack..

[Kodama.6453]

> @"hugo.4705" said:

> I really hope they consider turrets in the incoming balance patch. I feel like it's a fun unique mechanic and had fun using it as core build before expacs came and that they were nerfed. Plus, why they aren't racial... it's stupid seing asura downgrading to scraps and sylvaris not having vegetal ones.

 

As a sylvari engi main: **I DON'T WANT PLANT TURRETS!!**

 

I love steampunk thematics and want my turrets to stay mechanical, not some magical plants I summon to attack my enemies. I am an engineer, not a nature mage.

And in general I think the turrets should look the same for all races for clarity reasons.

 

And your asura downgrading is a side effect of the fact that engineer as core is based on charr technology.... charr were the ones inventing the engineer profession in the first place.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

In my opinion, turrets could just use some additional features and number tuning.

The current overcharge is one of those dual edge sword situations. Good for toolbelt skills, bad for only one overcharge.

Solution : Overcharge automatically using the old overcharge durations, or do away with the overcharge system completely, and compromise using a sort of permanent use scenario.

Example, Heal turret currently heals you twice, and allies once at half value, and proc Regen every so often. Instead, remove Regen/overcharge as well as the water field, and replace with a hard heal every time the turret pumps. Make it equal to the old heal rate (5040 per 15 seconds), which would be 1260 per 4 seconds (4 seconds being the time it takes in between pumps.) Basically the Engi version of the Signet of Courage, or a slow group Healing Signet, or a stationary long term version of Medic Gyro.

My proposed change is intended to make the turret function like an actual turret rather than a lesser Mending. If you want a lesser Mending, this is what Elixir H was meant to be before Alchemic Tintures was removed.

 

If turrets are too easy to destroy, they need damage reduction as well as crit-immunity. On top of that, Wrench repair needs to be way more than 5 and 10%. More like 25 and 50% per swing.

Bring back the feature that gave turrets knockback when destroyed.

Rifle and Rocket specifically need more damage and on-hit effects while not overcharged. Some better range wouldn't hurt either.

[Kuma.1503]

+1 Engi has been in need of a turret rework for a long time.

 

I made a similar post a while back. We even ended up proposing a lot of the same ideas!

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/99343/modernizing-the-engineer-turret-rework#latest

 

I end up exploring a pretty radical idea of making turrets more mobile, giving the player access to mini kit skills that they can use to defend themselves while rebuilding their defenses, but outside of that there are a lot of similar suggestions. I'm glad that there are still people talking about this.

 

 

 

 

[archmagus.7249]

Be careful what you wish for. The last time we asked for a turret rework, look at the mess we're in now. Do you want to risk them getting needed into oblivion? The last thing we want is them to change healing turret, and break nearly every viable build in the game

[Longstride.9716]

How about having turrets work like the lesser elemental glyph, allowing you to deploy/build multiple of the same turret. That way engineers utilizing turrets would get stronger in prolonged, stationary fights. Obviously that's very specific and situational, but better have one niche than no use at all.

[Kraljevo.2801]

Since they're stationary they should at least make them viable in PvE. Let them do crits again and add a trait or two for more build variety.