UNOwen.7132 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"Renny.6571" said: > > > @"Taril.8619" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > to actually get this kind of condis you gotta eat like 5+ different skills, similar combo from power builds 1shot you. > > > > > > But the thing is, Condition builds shouldn't be about smoking someone in one shot. Especially since many of them scale off of just 1 offensive stat (Condition Damage) and bypass Toughness and Protection while Condi Damage reduction is a lot less available since the answer to Condi's is supposed to be cleansing but that doesn't matter if you're blown up by huge stacks of Condi's. > > > > > > As far as stacking Condi's goes: > > > > > > A Rev shifting into Mallyx popping Searing Fissure/Echoing Darkness/Embrace the Darkness can apply 10-12 stacks of Torment and 8-10 stacks of Burning while ticking extra Torment from autos and elite. > > > > > > Scourge going into Shroud and dropping Grasping Dead/Harrowing Wave/Scepter 3 can apply ~10 stacks of Bleed, ~10 stacks of Torment and 3 stacks of Burning. While converting 3 boons into Condi's too. > > > > > > Thief using Sneak Attack/Steal/Shadowstrike/Repeater can apply 10 stacks of Bleed, ~8 stacks of Poison and 6 stacks of Confusion. > > > > > > Which, while not matching up to my obvious hyperbole, is still a large number of condi's applied in a small number of skills, and result in large amounts of burst damage. > > > > > > The issue isn't so much that this number of skills kills someone, but the fact that Condi's have limited sources of damage reduction because they're supposed to deal damage over time and thus be susceptible to cleanses. The potential burst that Condi's can put out with skills that can drop literally 4-6 Condi's on someone at a time is pretty high, which seems at odds with their inherent design. > > > > > > It also allows for a lot sturdier builds because you can use Carrion/Sage/Rabid stats and lose little to no damage since really all you need is Condi Damage and you're golden (While Power builds work from Power, Precision and Ferocity meaning it's Berserker or lose a fair chunk of damage) - Which makes sense if the builds are supposed to survive a bit longer for their damage over time to do its think, less so if you're still doing the same as a glass cannon power build and trying to nuke someone in a couple of seconds. > > > > > > > > > > Excellent post. Highlights the main points of condi vs power damage. > > - condi scales off 1 stat vs power 3 stat. > > - power dmg reduction from toughness, prot and weakness vs condi cleanse. > > - Consistent and rapid application of condis. > > > > I would also argue that other defensive mechanics such as blocks and blinds hsve a much greater effect on mitigating power damage. > > > > Toughness vs cleanse (unique mitigation to damage types). Resistance vs Protection/Weakness (boons and conditions that reduce power damage). Blocks and blinds stop attacks that do condi application just the same as with power. > Hypothetically, they would, practically they do not. With power, if you block that big telegraphed hit, you reduced a ton of damage. But condi falls into 3 categories. Pulsing fields, on-X traits, and instant cast. You could block the first, but blocks, blinds, evades, all of them do jack all against the other 2. Even the first one they only help partially because you cant just blockstring through the entirety of their attacks. Thats why blocks and blinds *dont* stop attacks just the same as with power. > You’d also be more convincing if you didn’t just repeat the misleading statement that conditions scale off one stat versus three. The comparison would be fair if a full zerk build did equal damage to a full dire build. It doesn’t in the slightest. In PvP, the stats are all either power or hybrid so it’s not really like “Condi” builds are pure condi in their damage. > It does actually. Dire does as much, if not more damage compared to a full Zerk build, if not cleansed repeatedly. And sure, Dire doesnt exist in PvP (for a reason), but Condi still gets away with 3 stats, one of which is toughness or vitality, while Power builds cant even get away with Demolisher or Marauders anymore. > Here’s the truth. Condition builds (as a whole) can either be burst or sustained output based. Burst condi application is about abilities that stack up large amounts of condi quickly. The idea is to build up the stacks quickly and prevent the target from using cleanse via cc. Sustained condi application, alternatively, has the character of “constant” application of condi. You conflate the two by assuming the application is both constantly and rapid (always bursting). But this is not what’s happening. > Actually, theyre usually both. The application *is* in fact constant and rapid for most condi builds. Whether its condi Rev repeatedly dumping a bunch of condis on you, Scourges corruption and condi bomb fields, Mesmers repeated bursts or even Soulbeasts nonsense, the builds typically burst repeatedly, *and* have sustained condi application. > If you take a lot of condi all at once then the counter play is to burst cleanse and watch for the tells to counter what you can going forward. > Nice idea. Doesnt work, because condi application doesnt have "tells". Its all instant, which you cant avoid, on-X, which you cant avoid unless you have 100% evasion uptime, or pulsing fields, which you cant avoid without giving up the point. The "counter play" is to have enough cleanses. Thats literally it. > If you are taking condi over time the counter play is to burst them down before they out sustain you while bleeding you out. Likewise here the counterplay is to have enough cleanses, and nothing else. Its binary, its boring, its unhealthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"Broady.2358" said: > One reason I do not like facing condition spam is because how easy it is to re-apply the conditions even after I have cleansed. Someone stated this above but a lot of Auto Attacks apply conditions (looking at you revenant). This is incredibly frustration just to cleanse all the conditions on you just to have torment stacks reapplied by someone press 1. No really different to pressing 1 on any other build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Broady.2358" said: > > One reason I do not like facing condition spam is because how easy it is to re-apply the conditions even after I have cleansed. Someone stated this above but a lot of Auto Attacks apply conditions (looking at you revenant). This is incredibly frustration just to cleanse all the conditions on you just to have torment stacks reapplied by someone press 1. > No really different to pressing 1 on any other build. this is what happens when they look at the stack and get scared off it. I can apply 15 bleed with pistol 4, looks scary right? whole whooping 15 bleed. well, thats 5k dmg.... not that scary anymore is it? xd they get hit by some chip damage look at 4 torment, 2 bleed and poison from doom sigil and thing they got bombed again, but thats 2k dmg, 3k tops and they waste cleanse for that and then die to actual condi bombs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Broady.2358" said: > > > One reason I do not like facing condition spam is because how easy it is to re-apply the conditions even after I have cleansed. Someone stated this above but a lot of Auto Attacks apply conditions (looking at you revenant). This is incredibly frustration just to cleanse all the conditions on you just to have torment stacks reapplied by someone press 1. > > No really different to pressing 1 on any other build. > > this is what happens when they look at the stack and get scared off it. > I can apply 15 bleed with pistol 4, looks scary right? whole whooping 15 bleed. > well, thats 5k dmg.... not that scary anymore is it? xd > they get hit by some chip damage look at 4 torment, 2 bleed and poison from doom sigil and thing they got bombed again, but thats 2k dmg, 3k tops and they waste cleanse for that and then die to actual condi bombs. This is one of my fundamental issues with this, the thought that all conditions must be cleansed at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"Renny.6571" said: > > > > @"Taril.8619" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > to actually get this kind of condis you gotta eat like 5+ different skills, similar combo from power builds 1shot you. > > > > > > > > But the thing is, Condition builds shouldn't be about smoking someone in one shot. Especially since many of them scale off of just 1 offensive stat (Condition Damage) and bypass Toughness and Protection while Condi Damage reduction is a lot less available since the answer to Condi's is supposed to be cleansing but that doesn't matter if you're blown up by huge stacks of Condi's. > > > > > > > > As far as stacking Condi's goes: > > > > > > > > A Rev shifting into Mallyx popping Searing Fissure/Echoing Darkness/Embrace the Darkness can apply 10-12 stacks of Torment and 8-10 stacks of Burning while ticking extra Torment from autos and elite. > > > > > > > > Scourge going into Shroud and dropping Grasping Dead/Harrowing Wave/Scepter 3 can apply ~10 stacks of Bleed, ~10 stacks of Torment and 3 stacks of Burning. While converting 3 boons into Condi's too. > > > > > > > > Thief using Sneak Attack/Steal/Shadowstrike/Repeater can apply 10 stacks of Bleed, ~8 stacks of Poison and 6 stacks of Confusion. > > > > > > > > Which, while not matching up to my obvious hyperbole, is still a large number of condi's applied in a small number of skills, and result in large amounts of burst damage. > > > > > > > > The issue isn't so much that this number of skills kills someone, but the fact that Condi's have limited sources of damage reduction because they're supposed to deal damage over time and thus be susceptible to cleanses. The potential burst that Condi's can put out with skills that can drop literally 4-6 Condi's on someone at a time is pretty high, which seems at odds with their inherent design. > > > > > > > > It also allows for a lot sturdier builds because you can use Carrion/Sage/Rabid stats and lose little to no damage since really all you need is Condi Damage and you're golden (While Power builds work from Power, Precision and Ferocity meaning it's Berserker or lose a fair chunk of damage) - Which makes sense if the builds are supposed to survive a bit longer for their damage over time to do its think, less so if you're still doing the same as a glass cannon power build and trying to nuke someone in a couple of seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Excellent post. Highlights the main points of condi vs power damage. > > > - condi scales off 1 stat vs power 3 stat. > > > - power dmg reduction from toughness, prot and weakness vs condi cleanse. > > > - Consistent and rapid application of condis. > > > > > > I would also argue that other defensive mechanics such as blocks and blinds hsve a much greater effect on mitigating power damage. > > > > > > > Toughness vs cleanse (unique mitigation to damage types). Resistance vs Protection/Weakness (boons and conditions that reduce power damage). Blocks and blinds stop attacks that do condi application just the same as with power. > > > > Hypothetically, they would, practically they do not. With power, if you block that big telegraphed hit, you reduced a ton of damage. But condi falls into 3 categories. Pulsing fields, on-X traits, and instant cast. You could block the first, but blocks, blinds, evades, all of them do jack all against the other 2. Even the first one they only help partially because you cant just blockstring through the entirety of their attacks. Thats why blocks and blinds *dont* stop attacks just the same as with power. > > > You’d also be more convincing if you didn’t just repeat the misleading statement that conditions scale off one stat versus three. The comparison would be fair if a full zerk build did equal damage to a full dire build. It doesn’t in the slightest. In PvP, the stats are all either power or hybrid so it’s not really like “Condi” builds are pure condi in their damage. > > > > It does actually. Dire does as much, if not more damage compared to a full Zerk build, if not cleansed repeatedly. And sure, Dire doesnt exist in PvP (for a reason), but Condi still gets away with 3 stats, one of which is toughness or vitality, while Power builds cant even get away with Demolisher or Marauders anymore. > > > Here’s the truth. Condition builds (as a whole) can either be burst or sustained output based. Burst condi application is about abilities that stack up large amounts of condi quickly. The idea is to build up the stacks quickly and prevent the target from using cleanse via cc. Sustained condi application, alternatively, has the character of “constant” application of condi. You conflate the two by assuming the application is both constantly and rapid (always bursting). But this is not what’s happening. > > > > Actually, theyre usually both. The application *is* in fact constant and rapid for most condi builds. Whether its condi Rev repeatedly dumping a bunch of condis on you, Scourges corruption and condi bomb fields, Mesmers repeated bursts or even Soulbeasts nonsense, the builds typically burst repeatedly, *and* have sustained condi application. > > > If you take a lot of condi all at once then the counter play is to burst cleanse and watch for the tells to counter what you can going forward. > > > > Nice idea. Doesnt work, because condi application doesnt have "tells". Its all instant, which you cant avoid, on-X, which you cant avoid unless you have 100% evasion uptime, or pulsing fields, which you cant avoid without giving up the point. The "counter play" is to have enough cleanses. Thats literally it. > > > If you are taking condi over time the counter play is to burst them down before they out sustain you while bleeding you out. > > Likewise here the counterplay is to have enough cleanses, and nothing else. Its binary, its boring, its unhealthy. Prove it does more damage. Show me a dire build that can output equal damage to a zerk build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Broady.2358" said: > > > One reason I do not like facing condition spam is because how easy it is to re-apply the conditions even after I have cleansed. Someone stated this above but a lot of Auto Attacks apply conditions (looking at you revenant). This is incredibly frustration just to cleanse all the conditions on you just to have torment stacks reapplied by someone press 1. > > No really different to pressing 1 on any other build. > > this is what happens when they look at the stack and get scared off it. > I can apply 15 bleed with pistol 4, looks scary right? whole whooping 15 bleed. > well, thats 5k dmg.... not that scary anymore is it? xd > they get hit by some chip damage look at 4 torment, 2 bleed and poison from doom sigil and thing they got bombed again, but thats 2k dmg, 3k tops and they waste cleanse for that and then die to actual condi bombs. This is also a problem with a lot of condi setups, imo - the allocation of power from skill to skill can be very wonky because there can be 'dead' skills (skills that deal entirely power damage) and the AA may or may not require extra work to apply conditions. Warr bow requires a specific trait for the AA to do any condi damage whatsoever, and it has en entire skill (think it was #3?) that does only power damage. Warr sword#3 only does condi damage below a certain threshold and it's bamboozling as to why that is the case. d/d thief AA only has condi on the third hit of the chain and heartseeker is...heartseeker. Condi builds are forced to take massive chunks of power stats. It's mind blowing to see people compare mara/zerker power setups and claim that condi can 'get away with'' tankier setups. Fine then. **Where's my full condi damage amulet?**. I could really go for a precision (for on-crit condi application traits), condi damage, expertise, maybe a dab of power in there just so people can be spared the full horror of a condi build that isn't forced to take any power stats. Wait that was the viper amulet, which has been removed. My b. Meanwhile we still have a bunch of power builds that take defensive stats too. And then we have people complaining about the reapplication rate of condis from an auto attack, because for some reason condi setups aren't...allowed? To have useful AA's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > @"Renny.6571" said: > > > > > @"Taril.8619" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > to actually get this kind of condis you gotta eat like 5+ different skills, similar combo from power builds 1shot you. > > > > > > > > > > But the thing is, Condition builds shouldn't be about smoking someone in one shot. Especially since many of them scale off of just 1 offensive stat (Condition Damage) and bypass Toughness and Protection while Condi Damage reduction is a lot less available since the answer to Condi's is supposed to be cleansing but that doesn't matter if you're blown up by huge stacks of Condi's. > > > > > > > > > > As far as stacking Condi's goes: > > > > > > > > > > A Rev shifting into Mallyx popping Searing Fissure/Echoing Darkness/Embrace the Darkness can apply 10-12 stacks of Torment and 8-10 stacks of Burning while ticking extra Torment from autos and elite. > > > > > > > > > > Scourge going into Shroud and dropping Grasping Dead/Harrowing Wave/Scepter 3 can apply ~10 stacks of Bleed, ~10 stacks of Torment and 3 stacks of Burning. While converting 3 boons into Condi's too. > > > > > > > > > > Thief using Sneak Attack/Steal/Shadowstrike/Repeater can apply 10 stacks of Bleed, ~8 stacks of Poison and 6 stacks of Confusion. > > > > > > > > > > Which, while not matching up to my obvious hyperbole, is still a large number of condi's applied in a small number of skills, and result in large amounts of burst damage. > > > > > > > > > > The issue isn't so much that this number of skills kills someone, but the fact that Condi's have limited sources of damage reduction because they're supposed to deal damage over time and thus be susceptible to cleanses. The potential burst that Condi's can put out with skills that can drop literally 4-6 Condi's on someone at a time is pretty high, which seems at odds with their inherent design. > > > > > > > > > > It also allows for a lot sturdier builds because you can use Carrion/Sage/Rabid stats and lose little to no damage since really all you need is Condi Damage and you're golden (While Power builds work from Power, Precision and Ferocity meaning it's Berserker or lose a fair chunk of damage) - Which makes sense if the builds are supposed to survive a bit longer for their damage over time to do its think, less so if you're still doing the same as a glass cannon power build and trying to nuke someone in a couple of seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Excellent post. Highlights the main points of condi vs power damage. > > > > - condi scales off 1 stat vs power 3 stat. > > > > - power dmg reduction from toughness, prot and weakness vs condi cleanse. > > > > - Consistent and rapid application of condis. > > > > > > > > I would also argue that other defensive mechanics such as blocks and blinds hsve a much greater effect on mitigating power damage. > > > > > > > > > > Toughness vs cleanse (unique mitigation to damage types). Resistance vs Protection/Weakness (boons and conditions that reduce power damage). Blocks and blinds stop attacks that do condi application just the same as with power. > > > > > > > Hypothetically, they would, practically they do not. With power, if you block that big telegraphed hit, you reduced a ton of damage. But condi falls into 3 categories. Pulsing fields, on-X traits, and instant cast. You could block the first, but blocks, blinds, evades, all of them do jack all against the other 2. Even the first one they only help partially because you cant just blockstring through the entirety of their attacks. Thats why blocks and blinds *dont* stop attacks just the same as with power. > > > > > You’d also be more convincing if you didn’t just repeat the misleading statement that conditions scale off one stat versus three. The comparison would be fair if a full zerk build did equal damage to a full dire build. It doesn’t in the slightest. In PvP, the stats are all either power or hybrid so it’s not really like “Condi” builds are pure condi in their damage. > > > > > > > It does actually. Dire does as much, if not more damage compared to a full Zerk build, if not cleansed repeatedly. And sure, Dire doesnt exist in PvP (for a reason), but Condi still gets away with 3 stats, one of which is toughness or vitality, while Power builds cant even get away with Demolisher or Marauders anymore. > > > > > Here’s the truth. Condition builds (as a whole) can either be burst or sustained output based. Burst condi application is about abilities that stack up large amounts of condi quickly. The idea is to build up the stacks quickly and prevent the target from using cleanse via cc. Sustained condi application, alternatively, has the character of “constant” application of condi. You conflate the two by assuming the application is both constantly and rapid (always bursting). But this is not what’s happening. > > > > > > > Actually, theyre usually both. The application *is* in fact constant and rapid for most condi builds. Whether its condi Rev repeatedly dumping a bunch of condis on you, Scourges corruption and condi bomb fields, Mesmers repeated bursts or even Soulbeasts nonsense, the builds typically burst repeatedly, *and* have sustained condi application. > > > > > If you take a lot of condi all at once then the counter play is to burst cleanse and watch for the tells to counter what you can going forward. > > > > > > > Nice idea. Doesnt work, because condi application doesnt have "tells". Its all instant, which you cant avoid, on-X, which you cant avoid unless you have 100% evasion uptime, or pulsing fields, which you cant avoid without giving up the point. The "counter play" is to have enough cleanses. Thats literally it. > > > > > If you are taking condi over time the counter play is to burst them down before they out sustain you while bleeding you out. > > > > Likewise here the counterplay is to have enough cleanses, and nothing else. Its binary, its boring, its unhealthy. > > Prove it does more damage. Show me a dire build that can output equal damage to a zerk build. Without cleansing? Trivial. A power build will have a very hard time exceeding 5k DPS past 4 seconds. Burn Guardians DPS over 20 seconds, using Dire gear, is a nice and cool 7500 DPS, just off of the burning alone (meaning, ignoring *all* power damage. Not that its much). Oh and thats on a single target. When we account for multiple targets, thanks to Permeating Wrath, well that increases the DPS per target by a crazy amount. Were talking upwards of 10k DPS. Power builds cant even come close to this. So yeah, there you go. Edit: Since I should make clear how, its 5 casts of swords of justice, 4 hits of burning with each burning doing 4535 damage, 7 hits of the virtue of justice passive (1 auto and 5 swords of justice, I didnt consider any more autos than that one) each doing 2721, 2 Zealots fire doing 10204 damage each, then 3 symbols each hitting 8 times, meaning 8 procs of virtue of justice each doing 2721 again, all over 20 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > @"Renny.6571" said: > > > > > > @"Taril.8619" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > to actually get this kind of condis you gotta eat like 5+ different skills, similar combo from power builds 1shot you. > > > > > > > > > > > > But the thing is, Condition builds shouldn't be about smoking someone in one shot. Especially since many of them scale off of just 1 offensive stat (Condition Damage) and bypass Toughness and Protection while Condi Damage reduction is a lot less available since the answer to Condi's is supposed to be cleansing but that doesn't matter if you're blown up by huge stacks of Condi's. > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as stacking Condi's goes: > > > > > > > > > > > > A Rev shifting into Mallyx popping Searing Fissure/Echoing Darkness/Embrace the Darkness can apply 10-12 stacks of Torment and 8-10 stacks of Burning while ticking extra Torment from autos and elite. > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge going into Shroud and dropping Grasping Dead/Harrowing Wave/Scepter 3 can apply ~10 stacks of Bleed, ~10 stacks of Torment and 3 stacks of Burning. While converting 3 boons into Condi's too. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief using Sneak Attack/Steal/Shadowstrike/Repeater can apply 10 stacks of Bleed, ~8 stacks of Poison and 6 stacks of Confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > Which, while not matching up to my obvious hyperbole, is still a large number of condi's applied in a small number of skills, and result in large amounts of burst damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue isn't so much that this number of skills kills someone, but the fact that Condi's have limited sources of damage reduction because they're supposed to deal damage over time and thus be susceptible to cleanses. The potential burst that Condi's can put out with skills that can drop literally 4-6 Condi's on someone at a time is pretty high, which seems at odds with their inherent design. > > > > > > > > > > > > It also allows for a lot sturdier builds because you can use Carrion/Sage/Rabid stats and lose little to no damage since really all you need is Condi Damage and you're golden (While Power builds work from Power, Precision and Ferocity meaning it's Berserker or lose a fair chunk of damage) - Which makes sense if the builds are supposed to survive a bit longer for their damage over time to do its think, less so if you're still doing the same as a glass cannon power build and trying to nuke someone in a couple of seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Excellent post. Highlights the main points of condi vs power damage. > > > > > - condi scales off 1 stat vs power 3 stat. > > > > > - power dmg reduction from toughness, prot and weakness vs condi cleanse. > > > > > - Consistent and rapid application of condis. > > > > > > > > > > I would also argue that other defensive mechanics such as blocks and blinds hsve a much greater effect on mitigating power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toughness vs cleanse (unique mitigation to damage types). Resistance vs Protection/Weakness (boons and conditions that reduce power damage). Blocks and blinds stop attacks that do condi application just the same as with power. > > > > > > > > > > Hypothetically, they would, practically they do not. With power, if you block that big telegraphed hit, you reduced a ton of damage. But condi falls into 3 categories. Pulsing fields, on-X traits, and instant cast. You could block the first, but blocks, blinds, evades, all of them do jack all against the other 2. Even the first one they only help partially because you cant just blockstring through the entirety of their attacks. Thats why blocks and blinds *dont* stop attacks just the same as with power. > > > > > > > You’d also be more convincing if you didn’t just repeat the misleading statement that conditions scale off one stat versus three. The comparison would be fair if a full zerk build did equal damage to a full dire build. It doesn’t in the slightest. In PvP, the stats are all either power or hybrid so it’s not really like “Condi” builds are pure condi in their damage. > > > > > > > > > > It does actually. Dire does as much, if not more damage compared to a full Zerk build, if not cleansed repeatedly. And sure, Dire doesnt exist in PvP (for a reason), but Condi still gets away with 3 stats, one of which is toughness or vitality, while Power builds cant even get away with Demolisher or Marauders anymore. > > > > > > > Here’s the truth. Condition builds (as a whole) can either be burst or sustained output based. Burst condi application is about abilities that stack up large amounts of condi quickly. The idea is to build up the stacks quickly and prevent the target from using cleanse via cc. Sustained condi application, alternatively, has the character of “constant” application of condi. You conflate the two by assuming the application is both constantly and rapid (always bursting). But this is not what’s happening. > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre usually both. The application *is* in fact constant and rapid for most condi builds. Whether its condi Rev repeatedly dumping a bunch of condis on you, Scourges corruption and condi bomb fields, Mesmers repeated bursts or even Soulbeasts nonsense, the builds typically burst repeatedly, *and* have sustained condi application. > > > > > > > If you take a lot of condi all at once then the counter play is to burst cleanse and watch for the tells to counter what you can going forward. > > > > > > > > > > Nice idea. Doesnt work, because condi application doesnt have "tells". Its all instant, which you cant avoid, on-X, which you cant avoid unless you have 100% evasion uptime, or pulsing fields, which you cant avoid without giving up the point. The "counter play" is to have enough cleanses. Thats literally it. > > > > > > > If you are taking condi over time the counter play is to burst them down before they out sustain you while bleeding you out. > > > > > > Likewise here the counterplay is to have enough cleanses, and nothing else. Its binary, its boring, its unhealthy. > > > > Prove it does more damage. Show me a dire build that can output equal damage to a zerk build. > > Without cleansing? Trivial. A power build will have a very hard time exceeding 5k DPS past 4 seconds. Burn Guardians DPS over 20 seconds, using Dire gear, is a nice and cool 7500 DPS, just off of the burning alone (meaning, ignoring *all* power damage. Not that its much). Oh and thats on a single target. When we account for multiple targets, thanks to Permeating Wrath, well that increases the DPS per target by a crazy amount. Were talking upwards of 10k DPS. Power builds cant even come close to this. So yeah, there you go. > > Edit: Since I should make clear how, its 5 casts of swords of justice, 4 hits of burning with each burning doing 4535 damage, 7 hits of the virtue of justice passive (1 auto and 5 swords of justice, I didnt consider any more autos than that one) each doing 2721, 2 Zealots fire doing 10204 damage each, then 3 symbols each hitting 8 times, meaning 8 procs of virtue of justice each doing 2721 again, all over 20 seconds. Without cleansing? You might as well measure power DPS against a target not wearing any armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > @"Renny.6571" said: > > > > > > > @"Taril.8619" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > to actually get this kind of condis you gotta eat like 5+ different skills, similar combo from power builds 1shot you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But the thing is, Condition builds shouldn't be about smoking someone in one shot. Especially since many of them scale off of just 1 offensive stat (Condition Damage) and bypass Toughness and Protection while Condi Damage reduction is a lot less available since the answer to Condi's is supposed to be cleansing but that doesn't matter if you're blown up by huge stacks of Condi's. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as stacking Condi's goes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Rev shifting into Mallyx popping Searing Fissure/Echoing Darkness/Embrace the Darkness can apply 10-12 stacks of Torment and 8-10 stacks of Burning while ticking extra Torment from autos and elite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge going into Shroud and dropping Grasping Dead/Harrowing Wave/Scepter 3 can apply ~10 stacks of Bleed, ~10 stacks of Torment and 3 stacks of Burning. While converting 3 boons into Condi's too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief using Sneak Attack/Steal/Shadowstrike/Repeater can apply 10 stacks of Bleed, ~8 stacks of Poison and 6 stacks of Confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which, while not matching up to my obvious hyperbole, is still a large number of condi's applied in a small number of skills, and result in large amounts of burst damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue isn't so much that this number of skills kills someone, but the fact that Condi's have limited sources of damage reduction because they're supposed to deal damage over time and thus be susceptible to cleanses. The potential burst that Condi's can put out with skills that can drop literally 4-6 Condi's on someone at a time is pretty high, which seems at odds with their inherent design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also allows for a lot sturdier builds because you can use Carrion/Sage/Rabid stats and lose little to no damage since really all you need is Condi Damage and you're golden (While Power builds work from Power, Precision and Ferocity meaning it's Berserker or lose a fair chunk of damage) - Which makes sense if the builds are supposed to survive a bit longer for their damage over time to do its think, less so if you're still doing the same as a glass cannon power build and trying to nuke someone in a couple of seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Excellent post. Highlights the main points of condi vs power damage. > > > > > > - condi scales off 1 stat vs power 3 stat. > > > > > > - power dmg reduction from toughness, prot and weakness vs condi cleanse. > > > > > > - Consistent and rapid application of condis. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would also argue that other defensive mechanics such as blocks and blinds hsve a much greater effect on mitigating power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toughness vs cleanse (unique mitigation to damage types). Resistance vs Protection/Weakness (boons and conditions that reduce power damage). Blocks and blinds stop attacks that do condi application just the same as with power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hypothetically, they would, practically they do not. With power, if you block that big telegraphed hit, you reduced a ton of damage. But condi falls into 3 categories. Pulsing fields, on-X traits, and instant cast. You could block the first, but blocks, blinds, evades, all of them do jack all against the other 2. Even the first one they only help partially because you cant just blockstring through the entirety of their attacks. Thats why blocks and blinds *dont* stop attacks just the same as with power. > > > > > > > > > You’d also be more convincing if you didn’t just repeat the misleading statement that conditions scale off one stat versus three. The comparison would be fair if a full zerk build did equal damage to a full dire build. It doesn’t in the slightest. In PvP, the stats are all either power or hybrid so it’s not really like “Condi” builds are pure condi in their damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does actually. Dire does as much, if not more damage compared to a full Zerk build, if not cleansed repeatedly. And sure, Dire doesnt exist in PvP (for a reason), but Condi still gets away with 3 stats, one of which is toughness or vitality, while Power builds cant even get away with Demolisher or Marauders anymore. > > > > > > > > > Here’s the truth. Condition builds (as a whole) can either be burst or sustained output based. Burst condi application is about abilities that stack up large amounts of condi quickly. The idea is to build up the stacks quickly and prevent the target from using cleanse via cc. Sustained condi application, alternatively, has the character of “constant” application of condi. You conflate the two by assuming the application is both constantly and rapid (always bursting). But this is not what’s happening. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre usually both. The application *is* in fact constant and rapid for most condi builds. Whether its condi Rev repeatedly dumping a bunch of condis on you, Scourges corruption and condi bomb fields, Mesmers repeated bursts or even Soulbeasts nonsense, the builds typically burst repeatedly, *and* have sustained condi application. > > > > > > > > > If you take a lot of condi all at once then the counter play is to burst cleanse and watch for the tells to counter what you can going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice idea. Doesnt work, because condi application doesnt have "tells". Its all instant, which you cant avoid, on-X, which you cant avoid unless you have 100% evasion uptime, or pulsing fields, which you cant avoid without giving up the point. The "counter play" is to have enough cleanses. Thats literally it. > > > > > > > > > If you are taking condi over time the counter play is to burst them down before they out sustain you while bleeding you out. > > > > > > > > Likewise here the counterplay is to have enough cleanses, and nothing else. Its binary, its boring, its unhealthy. > > > > > > Prove it does more damage. Show me a dire build that can output equal damage to a zerk build. > > > > Without cleansing? Trivial. A power build will have a very hard time exceeding 5k DPS past 4 seconds. Burn Guardians DPS over 20 seconds, using Dire gear, is a nice and cool 7500 DPS, just off of the burning alone (meaning, ignoring *all* power damage. Not that its much). Oh and thats on a single target. When we account for multiple targets, thanks to Permeating Wrath, well that increases the DPS per target by a crazy amount. Were talking upwards of 10k DPS. Power builds cant even come close to this. So yeah, there you go. > > > > Edit: Since I should make clear how, its 5 casts of swords of justice, 4 hits of burning with each burning doing 4535 damage, 7 hits of the virtue of justice passive (1 auto and 5 swords of justice, I didnt consider any more autos than that one) each doing 2721, 2 Zealots fire doing 10204 damage each, then 3 symbols each hitting 8 times, meaning 8 procs of virtue of justice each doing 2721 again, all over 20 seconds. > > Without cleansing? You might as well measure power DPS against a target not wearing any armor. Thats part of the problem though. Not only do you have to have cleanses, you have to have repeated ones. Fun fact, even with cleanses, burn guard does significantly more damage than power builds, especially if you consider protection and the like for power. And I mean *significantly*. Were still talking in the ballpark of over twice as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 I run Hide in Shadows and Shadowstep as my only cleanse. Full stop. It is not more than zerk. I’m much more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"saerni.2584" said: > I run Hide in Shadows and Shadowstep as my only cleanse. Full stop. > Then a burn guard kills you with trivial ease. Within just, lets say, 10 seconds, the burn Guard can output conditions that kill you, hm, about 8 times over? You can cleanse *2*. The third one kills you. Nice try, but fruitless. > It is not more than zerk. I’m much more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard. Oh its *way* more than Zerk, its not even a remote comparision. In the same times that a burn Guard can kill you 8 times, a power guard can kill you, hmm. 3 times, tops? Actually Im not even convinced its 3 times. If youre more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard, then you have faced very bad burn guards. Because the 2 are indeed not comparable. The burn guards damage *far* exceeds that of a zerk one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > @"Renny.6571" said: > > > > > > @"Taril.8619" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > to actually get this kind of condis you gotta eat like 5+ different skills, similar combo from power builds 1shot you. > > > > > > > > > > > > But the thing is, Condition builds shouldn't be about smoking someone in one shot. Especially since many of them scale off of just 1 offensive stat (Condition Damage) and bypass Toughness and Protection while Condi Damage reduction is a lot less available since the answer to Condi's is supposed to be cleansing but that doesn't matter if you're blown up by huge stacks of Condi's. > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as stacking Condi's goes: > > > > > > > > > > > > A Rev shifting into Mallyx popping Searing Fissure/Echoing Darkness/Embrace the Darkness can apply 10-12 stacks of Torment and 8-10 stacks of Burning while ticking extra Torment from autos and elite. > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge going into Shroud and dropping Grasping Dead/Harrowing Wave/Scepter 3 can apply ~10 stacks of Bleed, ~10 stacks of Torment and 3 stacks of Burning. While converting 3 boons into Condi's too. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief using Sneak Attack/Steal/Shadowstrike/Repeater can apply 10 stacks of Bleed, ~8 stacks of Poison and 6 stacks of Confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > Which, while not matching up to my obvious hyperbole, is still a large number of condi's applied in a small number of skills, and result in large amounts of burst damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue isn't so much that this number of skills kills someone, but the fact that Condi's have limited sources of damage reduction because they're supposed to deal damage over time and thus be susceptible to cleanses. The potential burst that Condi's can put out with skills that can drop literally 4-6 Condi's on someone at a time is pretty high, which seems at odds with their inherent design. > > > > > > > > > > > > It also allows for a lot sturdier builds because you can use Carrion/Sage/Rabid stats and lose little to no damage since really all you need is Condi Damage and you're golden (While Power builds work from Power, Precision and Ferocity meaning it's Berserker or lose a fair chunk of damage) - Which makes sense if the builds are supposed to survive a bit longer for their damage over time to do its think, less so if you're still doing the same as a glass cannon power build and trying to nuke someone in a couple of seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Excellent post. Highlights the main points of condi vs power damage. > > > > > - condi scales off 1 stat vs power 3 stat. > > > > > - power dmg reduction from toughness, prot and weakness vs condi cleanse. > > > > > - Consistent and rapid application of condis. > > > > > > > > > > I would also argue that other defensive mechanics such as blocks and blinds hsve a much greater effect on mitigating power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toughness vs cleanse (unique mitigation to damage types). Resistance vs Protection/Weakness (boons and conditions that reduce power damage). Blocks and blinds stop attacks that do condi application just the same as with power. > > > > > > > > > > Hypothetically, they would, practically they do not. With power, if you block that big telegraphed hit, you reduced a ton of damage. But condi falls into 3 categories. Pulsing fields, on-X traits, and instant cast. You could block the first, but blocks, blinds, evades, all of them do jack all against the other 2. Even the first one they only help partially because you cant just blockstring through the entirety of their attacks. Thats why blocks and blinds *dont* stop attacks just the same as with power. > > > > > > > You’d also be more convincing if you didn’t just repeat the misleading statement that conditions scale off one stat versus three. The comparison would be fair if a full zerk build did equal damage to a full dire build. It doesn’t in the slightest. In PvP, the stats are all either power or hybrid so it’s not really like “Condi” builds are pure condi in their damage. > > > > > > > > > > It does actually. Dire does as much, if not more damage compared to a full Zerk build, if not cleansed repeatedly. And sure, Dire doesnt exist in PvP (for a reason), but Condi still gets away with 3 stats, one of which is toughness or vitality, while Power builds cant even get away with Demolisher or Marauders anymore. > > > > > > > Here’s the truth. Condition builds (as a whole) can either be burst or sustained output based. Burst condi application is about abilities that stack up large amounts of condi quickly. The idea is to build up the stacks quickly and prevent the target from using cleanse via cc. Sustained condi application, alternatively, has the character of “constant” application of condi. You conflate the two by assuming the application is both constantly and rapid (always bursting). But this is not what’s happening. > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre usually both. The application *is* in fact constant and rapid for most condi builds. Whether its condi Rev repeatedly dumping a bunch of condis on you, Scourges corruption and condi bomb fields, Mesmers repeated bursts or even Soulbeasts nonsense, the builds typically burst repeatedly, *and* have sustained condi application. > > > > > > > If you take a lot of condi all at once then the counter play is to burst cleanse and watch for the tells to counter what you can going forward. > > > > > > > > > > Nice idea. Doesnt work, because condi application doesnt have "tells". Its all instant, which you cant avoid, on-X, which you cant avoid unless you have 100% evasion uptime, or pulsing fields, which you cant avoid without giving up the point. The "counter play" is to have enough cleanses. Thats literally it. > > > > > > > If you are taking condi over time the counter play is to burst them down before they out sustain you while bleeding you out. > > > > > > Likewise here the counterplay is to have enough cleanses, and nothing else. Its binary, its boring, its unhealthy. > > > > Prove it does more damage. Show me a dire build that can output equal damage to a zerk build. > > Without cleansing? Trivial. Then its completely unrealistic as a comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > @"Renny.6571" said: > > > > > > > @"Taril.8619" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > to actually get this kind of condis you gotta eat like 5+ different skills, similar combo from power builds 1shot you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But the thing is, Condition builds shouldn't be about smoking someone in one shot. Especially since many of them scale off of just 1 offensive stat (Condition Damage) and bypass Toughness and Protection while Condi Damage reduction is a lot less available since the answer to Condi's is supposed to be cleansing but that doesn't matter if you're blown up by huge stacks of Condi's. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as stacking Condi's goes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Rev shifting into Mallyx popping Searing Fissure/Echoing Darkness/Embrace the Darkness can apply 10-12 stacks of Torment and 8-10 stacks of Burning while ticking extra Torment from autos and elite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge going into Shroud and dropping Grasping Dead/Harrowing Wave/Scepter 3 can apply ~10 stacks of Bleed, ~10 stacks of Torment and 3 stacks of Burning. While converting 3 boons into Condi's too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief using Sneak Attack/Steal/Shadowstrike/Repeater can apply 10 stacks of Bleed, ~8 stacks of Poison and 6 stacks of Confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which, while not matching up to my obvious hyperbole, is still a large number of condi's applied in a small number of skills, and result in large amounts of burst damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue isn't so much that this number of skills kills someone, but the fact that Condi's have limited sources of damage reduction because they're supposed to deal damage over time and thus be susceptible to cleanses. The potential burst that Condi's can put out with skills that can drop literally 4-6 Condi's on someone at a time is pretty high, which seems at odds with their inherent design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also allows for a lot sturdier builds because you can use Carrion/Sage/Rabid stats and lose little to no damage since really all you need is Condi Damage and you're golden (While Power builds work from Power, Precision and Ferocity meaning it's Berserker or lose a fair chunk of damage) - Which makes sense if the builds are supposed to survive a bit longer for their damage over time to do its think, less so if you're still doing the same as a glass cannon power build and trying to nuke someone in a couple of seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Excellent post. Highlights the main points of condi vs power damage. > > > > > > - condi scales off 1 stat vs power 3 stat. > > > > > > - power dmg reduction from toughness, prot and weakness vs condi cleanse. > > > > > > - Consistent and rapid application of condis. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would also argue that other defensive mechanics such as blocks and blinds hsve a much greater effect on mitigating power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toughness vs cleanse (unique mitigation to damage types). Resistance vs Protection/Weakness (boons and conditions that reduce power damage). Blocks and blinds stop attacks that do condi application just the same as with power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hypothetically, they would, practically they do not. With power, if you block that big telegraphed hit, you reduced a ton of damage. But condi falls into 3 categories. Pulsing fields, on-X traits, and instant cast. You could block the first, but blocks, blinds, evades, all of them do jack all against the other 2. Even the first one they only help partially because you cant just blockstring through the entirety of their attacks. Thats why blocks and blinds *dont* stop attacks just the same as with power. > > > > > > > > > You’d also be more convincing if you didn’t just repeat the misleading statement that conditions scale off one stat versus three. The comparison would be fair if a full zerk build did equal damage to a full dire build. It doesn’t in the slightest. In PvP, the stats are all either power or hybrid so it’s not really like “Condi” builds are pure condi in their damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does actually. Dire does as much, if not more damage compared to a full Zerk build, if not cleansed repeatedly. And sure, Dire doesnt exist in PvP (for a reason), but Condi still gets away with 3 stats, one of which is toughness or vitality, while Power builds cant even get away with Demolisher or Marauders anymore. > > > > > > > > > Here’s the truth. Condition builds (as a whole) can either be burst or sustained output based. Burst condi application is about abilities that stack up large amounts of condi quickly. The idea is to build up the stacks quickly and prevent the target from using cleanse via cc. Sustained condi application, alternatively, has the character of “constant” application of condi. You conflate the two by assuming the application is both constantly and rapid (always bursting). But this is not what’s happening. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre usually both. The application *is* in fact constant and rapid for most condi builds. Whether its condi Rev repeatedly dumping a bunch of condis on you, Scourges corruption and condi bomb fields, Mesmers repeated bursts or even Soulbeasts nonsense, the builds typically burst repeatedly, *and* have sustained condi application. > > > > > > > > > If you take a lot of condi all at once then the counter play is to burst cleanse and watch for the tells to counter what you can going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice idea. Doesnt work, because condi application doesnt have "tells". Its all instant, which you cant avoid, on-X, which you cant avoid unless you have 100% evasion uptime, or pulsing fields, which you cant avoid without giving up the point. The "counter play" is to have enough cleanses. Thats literally it. > > > > > > > > > If you are taking condi over time the counter play is to burst them down before they out sustain you while bleeding you out. > > > > > > > > Likewise here the counterplay is to have enough cleanses, and nothing else. Its binary, its boring, its unhealthy. > > > > > > Prove it does more damage. Show me a dire build that can output equal damage to a zerk build. > > > > Without cleansing? Trivial. > > Then its completely unrealistic as a comparison. > It serves to underline the point, that being that cleansing is far too neccessary and as a result conditions far too binary. Though part of it is just because Im too lazy to do math involving cleanses because it gets very complicated. But just looking over this, yeah burn guard still exceeds power DPS quite far. > All you have done is say burn guard is op in the situation it works best in because permeating wrath scales too well. You're, once again, conflating a prominent build with everything being OP. > Im not saying condis are OP (though there are several OP Condi builds). Merely that they are very poorly designed. They need a rework, not a nerf. Something to make cleanses not absolutely mandatory and especially not the deciding factor in a fight. On a sidenote, even without Permeating Wrath, Burn Guard still exceeds power damage by a pretty wide margin. Even with moderate cleansing it likely does. It should be beaten out by power against builds that have 5 or more cleanses in 20 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > > @"Renny.6571" said: > > > > > > > > @"Taril.8619" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > to actually get this kind of condis you gotta eat like 5+ different skills, similar combo from power builds 1shot you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But the thing is, Condition builds shouldn't be about smoking someone in one shot. Especially since many of them scale off of just 1 offensive stat (Condition Damage) and bypass Toughness and Protection while Condi Damage reduction is a lot less available since the answer to Condi's is supposed to be cleansing but that doesn't matter if you're blown up by huge stacks of Condi's. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as stacking Condi's goes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A Rev shifting into Mallyx popping Searing Fissure/Echoing Darkness/Embrace the Darkness can apply 10-12 stacks of Torment and 8-10 stacks of Burning while ticking extra Torment from autos and elite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourge going into Shroud and dropping Grasping Dead/Harrowing Wave/Scepter 3 can apply ~10 stacks of Bleed, ~10 stacks of Torment and 3 stacks of Burning. While converting 3 boons into Condi's too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief using Sneak Attack/Steal/Shadowstrike/Repeater can apply 10 stacks of Bleed, ~8 stacks of Poison and 6 stacks of Confusion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which, while not matching up to my obvious hyperbole, is still a large number of condi's applied in a small number of skills, and result in large amounts of burst damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The issue isn't so much that this number of skills kills someone, but the fact that Condi's have limited sources of damage reduction because they're supposed to deal damage over time and thus be susceptible to cleanses. The potential burst that Condi's can put out with skills that can drop literally 4-6 Condi's on someone at a time is pretty high, which seems at odds with their inherent design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It also allows for a lot sturdier builds because you can use Carrion/Sage/Rabid stats and lose little to no damage since really all you need is Condi Damage and you're golden (While Power builds work from Power, Precision and Ferocity meaning it's Berserker or lose a fair chunk of damage) - Which makes sense if the builds are supposed to survive a bit longer for their damage over time to do its think, less so if you're still doing the same as a glass cannon power build and trying to nuke someone in a couple of seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Excellent post. Highlights the main points of condi vs power damage. > > > > > > > - condi scales off 1 stat vs power 3 stat. > > > > > > > - power dmg reduction from toughness, prot and weakness vs condi cleanse. > > > > > > > - Consistent and rapid application of condis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would also argue that other defensive mechanics such as blocks and blinds hsve a much greater effect on mitigating power damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Toughness vs cleanse (unique mitigation to damage types). Resistance vs Protection/Weakness (boons and conditions that reduce power damage). Blocks and blinds stop attacks that do condi application just the same as with power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hypothetically, they would, practically they do not. With power, if you block that big telegraphed hit, you reduced a ton of damage. But condi falls into 3 categories. Pulsing fields, on-X traits, and instant cast. You could block the first, but blocks, blinds, evades, all of them do jack all against the other 2. Even the first one they only help partially because you cant just blockstring through the entirety of their attacks. Thats why blocks and blinds *dont* stop attacks just the same as with power. > > > > > > > > > > > You’d also be more convincing if you didn’t just repeat the misleading statement that conditions scale off one stat versus three. The comparison would be fair if a full zerk build did equal damage to a full dire build. It doesn’t in the slightest. In PvP, the stats are all either power or hybrid so it’s not really like “Condi” builds are pure condi in their damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does actually. Dire does as much, if not more damage compared to a full Zerk build, if not cleansed repeatedly. And sure, Dire doesnt exist in PvP (for a reason), but Condi still gets away with 3 stats, one of which is toughness or vitality, while Power builds cant even get away with Demolisher or Marauders anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > Here’s the truth. Condition builds (as a whole) can either be burst or sustained output based. Burst condi application is about abilities that stack up large amounts of condi quickly. The idea is to build up the stacks quickly and prevent the target from using cleanse via cc. Sustained condi application, alternatively, has the character of “constant” application of condi. You conflate the two by assuming the application is both constantly and rapid (always bursting). But this is not what’s happening. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre usually both. The application *is* in fact constant and rapid for most condi builds. Whether its condi Rev repeatedly dumping a bunch of condis on you, Scourges corruption and condi bomb fields, Mesmers repeated bursts or even Soulbeasts nonsense, the builds typically burst repeatedly, *and* have sustained condi application. > > > > > > > > > > > If you take a lot of condi all at once then the counter play is to burst cleanse and watch for the tells to counter what you can going forward. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice idea. Doesnt work, because condi application doesnt have "tells". Its all instant, which you cant avoid, on-X, which you cant avoid unless you have 100% evasion uptime, or pulsing fields, which you cant avoid without giving up the point. The "counter play" is to have enough cleanses. Thats literally it. > > > > > > > > > > > If you are taking condi over time the counter play is to burst them down before they out sustain you while bleeding you out. > > > > > > > > > > Likewise here the counterplay is to have enough cleanses, and nothing else. Its binary, its boring, its unhealthy. > > > > > > > > Prove it does more damage. Show me a dire build that can output equal damage to a zerk build. > > > > > > Without cleansing? Trivial. > > > > Then its completely unrealistic as a comparison. > > > > It serves to underline the point, that being that cleansing is far too neccessary and as a result conditions far too binary. Though part of it is just because Im too lazy to do math involving cleanses because it gets very complicated. But just looking over this, yeah burn guard still exceeds power DPS quite far. > > > All you have done is say burn guard is op in the situation it works best in because permeating wrath scales too well. You're, once again, conflating a prominent build with everything being OP. > > > > Im not saying condis are OP (though there are several OP Condi builds). Merely that they are very poorly designed. They need a rework, not a nerf. Something to make cleanses not absolutely mandatory and especially not the deciding factor in a fight. On a sidenote, even without Permeating Wrath, Burn Guard still exceeds power damage by a pretty wide margin. Even with moderate cleansing it likely does. It should be beaten out by power against builds that have 5 or more cleanses in 20 seconds. We already disagree on this point and I dont agree with pretty much anything you have said so no use getting into this again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"Ghostof Luzifer.6159" said: >Oviously alot more thought would need to be put into the actual system, (which I havent done at all) , but i think it could maybe work. I mean that sounds pretty convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > I run Hide in Shadows and Shadowstep as my only cleanse. Full stop. > > > > Then a burn guard kills you with trivial ease. Within just, lets say, 10 seconds, the burn Guard can output conditions that kill you, hm, about 8 times over? You can cleanse *2*. The third one kills you. Nice try, but fruitless. > > > It is not more than zerk. I’m much more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard. > > Oh its *way* more than Zerk, its not even a remote comparision. In the same times that a burn Guard can kill you 8 times, a power guard can kill you, hmm. 3 times, tops? Actually Im not even convinced its 3 times. If youre more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard, then you have faced very bad burn guards. Because the 2 are indeed not comparable. The burn guards damage *far* exceeds that of a zerk one. Yet I beat most burn guards 1v1. Whoops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > I run Hide in Shadows and Shadowstep as my only cleanse. Full stop. > > > > > > > Then a burn guard kills you with trivial ease. Within just, lets say, 10 seconds, the burn Guard can output conditions that kill you, hm, about 8 times over? You can cleanse *2*. The third one kills you. Nice try, but fruitless. > > > > > It is not more than zerk. I’m much more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard. > > > > Oh its *way* more than Zerk, its not even a remote comparision. In the same times that a burn Guard can kill you 8 times, a power guard can kill you, hmm. 3 times, tops? Actually Im not even convinced its 3 times. If youre more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard, then you have faced very bad burn guards. Because the 2 are indeed not comparable. The burn guards damage *far* exceeds that of a zerk one. > > Yet I beat most burn guards 1v1. > > Whoops? Must be bad burn guards, or you play a class that crushes guardian in general and naturally has an *even easier* time against zerk guardian. Probably the former though. You dont see many roaming Guardians (because they lack mobility, so they cant catch up or run away very well, which is key for roaming), but the ones that do absolutely obliterate you if you try to fight them and youre packing any less than 5 seperate cleanses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > I run Hide in Shadows and Shadowstep as my only cleanse. Full stop. > > > > > > > > > > Then a burn guard kills you with trivial ease. Within just, lets say, 10 seconds, the burn Guard can output conditions that kill you, hm, about 8 times over? You can cleanse *2*. The third one kills you. Nice try, but fruitless. > > > > > > > It is not more than zerk. I’m much more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard. > > > > > > Oh its *way* more than Zerk, its not even a remote comparision. In the same times that a burn Guard can kill you 8 times, a power guard can kill you, hmm. 3 times, tops? Actually Im not even convinced its 3 times. If youre more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard, then you have faced very bad burn guards. Because the 2 are indeed not comparable. The burn guards damage *far* exceeds that of a zerk one. > > > > Yet I beat most burn guards 1v1. > > > > Whoops? > > Must be bad burn guards, or you play a class that crushes guardian in general and naturally has an *even easier* time against zerk guardian. Probably the former though. You dont see many roaming Guardians (because they lack mobility, so they cant catch up or run away very well, which is key for roaming), but the ones that do absolutely obliterate you if you try to fight them and youre packing any less than 5 seperate cleanses. Deadeye. No out of combat shenanigans. One clearly had a lot of experience and roamed several times with an experienced group of roamers. One of the few true platinum ranked WvWers. Fought several others but they were less solid players who I beat much more easily. Point still stands. My cleanse is one targeted cleanse on a 24 second cooldown and one 3 condi cleanse on a teleport on a 40 second cooldown. You don’t need that many cleanses to deal with burn guard. That’s why they can spike so high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > I run Hide in Shadows and Shadowstep as my only cleanse. Full stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then a burn guard kills you with trivial ease. Within just, lets say, 10 seconds, the burn Guard can output conditions that kill you, hm, about 8 times over? You can cleanse *2*. The third one kills you. Nice try, but fruitless. > > > > > > > > > It is not more than zerk. I’m much more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard. > > > > > > > > Oh its *way* more than Zerk, its not even a remote comparision. In the same times that a burn Guard can kill you 8 times, a power guard can kill you, hmm. 3 times, tops? Actually Im not even convinced its 3 times. If youre more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard, then you have faced very bad burn guards. Because the 2 are indeed not comparable. The burn guards damage *far* exceeds that of a zerk one. > > > > > > Yet I beat most burn guards 1v1. > > > > > > Whoops? > > > > Must be bad burn guards, or you play a class that crushes guardian in general and naturally has an *even easier* time against zerk guardian. Probably the former though. You dont see many roaming Guardians (because they lack mobility, so they cant catch up or run away very well, which is key for roaming), but the ones that do absolutely obliterate you if you try to fight them and youre packing any less than 5 seperate cleanses. > > Deadeye. No out of combat shenanigans. One clearly had a lot of experience and roamed several times with an experienced group of roamers. One of the few true platinum ranked WvWers. Fought several others but they were less solid players who I beat much more easily. > Rifle Deadeye? With the repeatable condition cleanse on skill 4? You do have barely sufficient condi cleanses then. And a range advantage they struggle with if they dont have intervention. But then again, a well placed line of warding should seriously screw you, especially if they follow it up with an immob. Even with the range advantage, without using skill 4 that still sounds practically unwinnable. > Point still stands. My cleanse is one targeted cleanse on a 24 second cooldown and one 3 condi cleanse on a teleport on a 40 second cooldown. > Well, you have the rifle one. Still, I cannot see how you would survive getting blasted with burning at a rate far higher than you can cleanse. > You don’t need that many cleanses to deal with burn guard. That’s why they can spike so high. You absolutely do. Otherwise, getting tagged by their burning is a death sentence, and sadly much of it isnt particularly avoidable, and what little is can be set up to be equally unavoidable. They can spike so high because in small scale, their lack of mobility means they cant catch up or run away, which is a serious disadvantage, while in large scale repeated condi cleanses are a must anyway. But if you do fight them, and you dont have repeated cleanses, they shred through you. No build comes even close in terms of damage, certainly not a power build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > I run Hide in Shadows and Shadowstep as my only cleanse. Full stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then a burn guard kills you with trivial ease. Within just, lets say, 10 seconds, the burn Guard can output conditions that kill you, hm, about 8 times over? You can cleanse *2*. The third one kills you. Nice try, but fruitless. > > > > > > > > > > > It is not more than zerk. I’m much more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard. > > > > > > > > > > Oh its *way* more than Zerk, its not even a remote comparision. In the same times that a burn Guard can kill you 8 times, a power guard can kill you, hmm. 3 times, tops? Actually Im not even convinced its 3 times. If youre more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard, then you have faced very bad burn guards. Because the 2 are indeed not comparable. The burn guards damage *far* exceeds that of a zerk one. > > > > > > > > Yet I beat most burn guards 1v1. > > > > > > > > Whoops? > > > > > > Must be bad burn guards, or you play a class that crushes guardian in general and naturally has an *even easier* time against zerk guardian. Probably the former though. You dont see many roaming Guardians (because they lack mobility, so they cant catch up or run away very well, which is key for roaming), but the ones that do absolutely obliterate you if you try to fight them and youre packing any less than 5 seperate cleanses. > > > > Deadeye. No out of combat shenanigans. One clearly had a lot of experience and roamed several times with an experienced group of roamers. One of the few true platinum ranked WvWers. Fought several others but they were less solid players who I beat much more easily. > > > > Rifle Deadeye? With the repeatable condition cleanse on skill 4? You do have barely sufficient condi cleanses then. And a range advantage they struggle with if they dont have intervention. But then again, a well placed line of warding should seriously screw you, especially if they follow it up with an immob. Even with the range advantage, without using skill 4 that still sounds practically unwinnable. > > > Point still stands. My cleanse is one targeted cleanse on a 24 second cooldown and one 3 condi cleanse on a teleport on a 40 second cooldown. > > > > Well, you have the rifle one. Still, I cannot see how you would survive getting blasted with burning at a rate far higher than you can cleanse. > > > You don’t need that many cleanses to deal with burn guard. That’s why they can spike so high. > > You absolutely do. Otherwise, getting tagged by their burning is a death sentence, and sadly much of it isnt particularly avoidable, and what little is can be set up to be equally unavoidable. They can spike so high because in small scale, their lack of mobility means they cant catch up or run away, which is a serious disadvantage, while in large scale repeated condi cleanses are a must anyway. But if you do fight them, and you dont have repeated cleanses, they shred through you. No build comes even close in terms of damage, certainly not a power build. P/D. No rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > > > > I run Hide in Shadows and Shadowstep as my only cleanse. Full stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then a burn guard kills you with trivial ease. Within just, lets say, 10 seconds, the burn Guard can output conditions that kill you, hm, about 8 times over? You can cleanse *2*. The third one kills you. Nice try, but fruitless. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not more than zerk. I’m much more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh its *way* more than Zerk, its not even a remote comparision. In the same times that a burn Guard can kill you 8 times, a power guard can kill you, hmm. 3 times, tops? Actually Im not even convinced its 3 times. If youre more worried about a zerk guard than a burn guard, then you have faced very bad burn guards. Because the 2 are indeed not comparable. The burn guards damage *far* exceeds that of a zerk one. > > > > > > > > > > Yet I beat most burn guards 1v1. > > > > > > > > > > Whoops? > > > > > > > > Must be bad burn guards, or you play a class that crushes guardian in general and naturally has an *even easier* time against zerk guardian. Probably the former though. You dont see many roaming Guardians (because they lack mobility, so they cant catch up or run away very well, which is key for roaming), but the ones that do absolutely obliterate you if you try to fight them and youre packing any less than 5 seperate cleanses. > > > > > > Deadeye. No out of combat shenanigans. One clearly had a lot of experience and roamed several times with an experienced group of roamers. One of the few true platinum ranked WvWers. Fought several others but they were less solid players who I beat much more easily. > > > > > > > Rifle Deadeye? With the repeatable condition cleanse on skill 4? You do have barely sufficient condi cleanses then. And a range advantage they struggle with if they dont have intervention. But then again, a well placed line of warding should seriously screw you, especially if they follow it up with an immob. Even with the range advantage, without using skill 4 that still sounds practically unwinnable. > > > > > Point still stands. My cleanse is one targeted cleanse on a 24 second cooldown and one 3 condi cleanse on a teleport on a 40 second cooldown. > > > > > > > Well, you have the rifle one. Still, I cannot see how you would survive getting blasted with burning at a rate far higher than you can cleanse. > > > > > You don’t need that many cleanses to deal with burn guard. That’s why they can spike so high. > > > > You absolutely do. Otherwise, getting tagged by their burning is a death sentence, and sadly much of it isnt particularly avoidable, and what little is can be set up to be equally unavoidable. They can spike so high because in small scale, their lack of mobility means they cant catch up or run away, which is a serious disadvantage, while in large scale repeated condi cleanses are a must anyway. But if you do fight them, and you dont have repeated cleanses, they shred through you. No build comes even close in terms of damage, certainly not a power build. > > P/D. No rifle. Yeah, you should be dead when fighting them then. Pretty trivially too. Immob into sword of justice, and thats your first cleanse gone. Line of Warding into second Sword of Justice, thats the last one gone. And then its just Zealots Fire, Symbols, autoattacks and a few more swords of justice, while you struggle to even run away thanks to cripple. I guess you could shortbow away, but then youre not killing the Guardian either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 The fact that I am not only competitive versus burn guard but win consistently belies your theory crafting. Seriously, I‘ve fought every condi build in WvW. With my cleanses I occasionally overstep and get burned. But I win plenty. And I overstep versus power builds just as often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aelska.4609 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Burn guard is the outlier of all the condi builds. Burn guard is a build that abandon all their active defenses to max out their burning application / damage, which is the only condition they can output. They rely on one thing: burn fast enough so that opponent dies before them, which only works by "condi bursting". If it works, it is insanely rewardful as, with two skills only, the burn guard will indeed generate a burst able to kill all the enemies in a 240 radius in less than 3 ticks. The downstates can then be bursted again, making them impossible to rez without a glyph. But if it doesn't (burst got cleaned, or aoe avoided) and guard gets targeted, the guard will die no matter what. Because it has traded all his defense option for this one trick card. This is a problem on its own because it is an extremely cheese build, but I don't think that should be linked to a "change condi system" call. The problem with burn guard is "how a class has access to conditions" rather than "what conditions do". In my opinion the problem behind (damaging) condis are 1) they are boring in the current state. No matter which condi you have on you, you will act the same: cleanse when it starts dealing damage 2) they have been powercreeped as everything else. The power damages having been nerfed, it's only natural that condis now feel more powerful than before. That being said, they are not an absolute: power builds are still a thing and have the potential to crack open these condibuilds. OP proposition brings something more interesting with build complexity: "which condi should I improve". My earlier proposition was to make condis more interesting by giving them different mechanics given their nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"saerni.2584" said: > The fact that I am not only competitive versus burn guard but win consistently belies your theory crafting. > The fact that I have seen some of the best players be consistently *crushed* against condi builds just because they didnt have enough cleanses however makes it quite likely to be true. In fact, I have not seen the opposite happen ever. If they dont have enough condi cleanses, they lose, end of story. > Seriously, I‘ve fought every condi build in WvW. With my cleanses I occasionally overstep and get burned. But I win plenty. And I overstep versus power builds just as often. There is no such thing as "overstepping" again condi. The sad truth of condi builds is that, unlike power builds, their damage is largely (or at times, entirely) unavoidable. At best, you can delay it, but that too is insufficient. Thats why you *need* to have multiple cleanses. You can *only* survive if you have them, otherwise you die. Against power builds? You dont need to have weakness. Or protection. Against them you can actually just dodge their telegraphed high impact skills, and youre just fine. So yeah, Im gonna say that I highly doubt that the burn guards were any good if you survived without multiple condi cleanses. And thats to say nothing of condi thief, condi ranger, condi mirage (Deadeye means no plasma, means no resistance) or condi Rev. Each of those just kills you without you having so much as a chance to stop it. Because what are you going to do? Have 100% dodge uptime to avoid condi rangers and condi thieves constant multi-hit barrage? Yeah right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > The fact that I am not only competitive versus burn guard but win consistently belies your theory crafting. > > > > The fact that I have seen some of the best players be consistently *crushed* against condi builds just because they didnt have enough cleanses however makes it quite likely to be true. In fact, I have not seen the opposite happen ever. If they dont have enough condi cleanses, they lose, end of story. > > > Seriously, I‘ve fought every condi build in WvW. With my cleanses I occasionally overstep and get burned. But I win plenty. And I overstep versus power builds just as often. > > There is no such thing as "overstepping" again condi. The sad truth of condi builds is that, unlike power builds, their damage is largely (or at times, entirely) unavoidable. At best, you can delay it, but that too is insufficient. Thats why you *need* to have multiple cleanses. You can *only* survive if you have them, otherwise you die. Against power builds? You dont need to have weakness. Or protection. Against them you can actually just dodge their telegraphed high impact skills, and youre just fine. So yeah, Im gonna say that I highly doubt that the burn guards were any good if you survived without multiple condi cleanses. And thats to say nothing of condi thief, condi ranger, condi mirage (Deadeye means no plasma, means no resistance) or condi Rev. Each of those just kills you without you having so much as a chance to stop it. Because what are you going to do? Have 100% dodge uptime to avoid condi rangers and condi thieves constant multi-hit barrage? Yeah right. Deadeye has a stolen skill with resistance. But it is a bit RNG so I’ll grant that. I‘ll admit I have a lot of active avoidance. Blinds, stealth, teleports. So I can survive without needing that much cleanse. And of course you have to have some cleanse. Cleanse is the unique mitigation versus condition damage. Armor is the unique mitigation versus power damage. But you don’t need that much if you can bring other mitigation. Guard especially has no cover condi so you can get away with less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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