[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[ThatOtherAlt.2984]

It's been said a million times, the philosophy behind Mirage in terms of game design were Sustain Bruiser with limited burst.

[mortrialus.3062]

I do think there's room for giving Chrono's unique shatters but I feel they should reinforce Chronomancer as a spec that super charges it's teammates and debilitates it's enemies by locking them down with stuns and especially heavy slow uptime. It shouldn't just be worse shatters for the sake of adding worse shatters. It should play into the idea of time manipulation more, and in a more flexible and updated way than it does now.

 

You can do something like

 

Split Second: Shatter Clones applying quickness in a 600 unit radius around them mesmer and procing damage and slow for all enemies struck. 10 ally limit.

Rewinder: Shatter Clones Applying Alacrity to allies in a 600 unit radius the mesmer and procing slow and Confusion for all enemies struck. 10 ally limit

Time Sink: Shatter Clones providing stability and healing allies in a 600 unit radius and applying stun and slow for all enemies struck. 10 ally limit.

Continuum Split: Same as now.

 

Overall I do feel Chronophantasma is a problem trait akin to Infinite Horizon. As we've seen initially after the phantasm rework and how Anet responded to it, none of the phantasms are allowed to be good in PvP on their own when Chronophantasma exists in it's current form. I'd rather see Chronomancer really augmented into being more of a proper team support the way Firebrand and Tempest are, and if it is winning fights 1v1 it's winning through playing into the themes of Chronomancer, stealing opponents time an accelerating your speed through it. I think an elite spec that augments mesmer's power damage should be reserved for the upcoming third elite spec.

 

Also after the Signet of Inspiration change mesmer in general has really had zero presence in WvW zerg content. Being able to more easily give allies the Chrono's quickness and Alacrity will help improve it's place in those types of situation.

 

There's also the serious issue of Chronomancer getting completely sidelined in Fractal content due to how much more easily and reliably the way Firebrand and Renegade provide the Quickness and Alacrity without the need for awkward outdated wells.

[RlyOsim.2497]

fair dues for hanging in there but how many mesmer mains quit due to chrono/mirage, how many more will when we are back here again x patches? really wrecked a good deal of roaming/gank communities.

[bravan.3876]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> You're talking about Bravan, a nonmesmer main who has explicitly said condition mesmer should never be viable and agreeing with him while he puts out his "rework" nonsense in bad faith as a trojan horse under the explicit goal of making condition mesmer and mirage in particular never good.

 

 

I am multiclass player and also play Mesmer (condi even, not power), i have the same rights to make suggestion as any other Mesmer player. And also ppl not playing Mesmer themself but have to play versus Mesmers should be allowed to say something, because they have the outside perspective a lot of you dear Mesmer mains are missing. Also can you link the origin post of me saying, that i want Condimes not viable please? I never said that as far as i know, would be weird because that is not what i am thinking. I just want Condimesmer to be more skillful to play, that is far away from making it unviable. And i want that for every class not only Mesmer. Condis in GW2 just have the problem, that they are per se wrong designed (that you can burst with "dot"-dmg for example, that condi builds only need 1 at max 2 stats for full dmg and can invest way more into defensive stats and traits than power builds -> the usual condibunker problem you have on a lot of classes), then Mesmer has something in addition makes it even more unbalanced and lame (passive dmg on clone autoattacks). I am not biased, those are just facts. Still i think in particular Condimirage has the potential to be skillful and balanced, when it is just more designed like Powermirage.

 

 

To the topic:

 

Also most consepts have interesting aspects i am not sure if giving Anet that many different options will rly help. Maybe only give 2 (the ones most ppl can agree to for example) would be enough. Also a lot of consepts include a complete elite rework which is imo not necessary. Powermirage never caused any balance issues, even tho they could also dodge while being stunned and could cast while dodging. Means the mechanics for a balanced Mirage spec are already there. All what is needed is, to look at what is different between Condi- and Powermirage mechanics and then change Condimirage in a way that it is equally to power (in its mechanics).

I explained the differences between condi and power ambushes and what problems that causes with mc on Condimirage long enough and often enough already, i will not do it again. But i think it doesn't make sense to give consepts to Anet making a lot of unnecessary work with a complete rework of a spec that is working in a balanced and skillful way on some playstyles already. Never change a running system! Rework Condi ambushes that they are more like the power equivalents (more utility based, zero or very low dmg from clone ambushes while Mirages own ambush can still have dmg) and balance the condi dmg around that, so that Condimirage has enough dmg in the end. Same you do with power ambushes, with 2 dodges back, they might need little nerfs in dmg or nerfs in buff/debuff stacks to be balanced with 2 dodges. For PvE you can just tweak numbers and give more condi and power dmg back to the ambushes if it is needed there. Everything else in my opinion is unnecessary complicated, costly and too time-consuming for Anet and will not be done anyway. Just my 2 cents, you can do what you want ofc.

[ThatOtherAlt.2984]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I do think there's room for giving Chrono's unique shatters but I feel they should reinforce Chronomancer as a spec that super charges it's teammates and debilitates it's enemies by locking them down with stuns and especially heavy slow uptime. It shouldn't just be worse shatters for the sake of adding worse shatters. It should play into the idea of time manipulation more, and in a more flexible and updated way than it does now.

>

> You can do something like

>

> Split Second: Shatter Clones applying quickness in a 600 unit radius around them mesmer and procing damage and slow for all enemies struck. 10 ally limit.

> Rewinder: Shatter Clones Applying Alacrity to allies in a 600 unit radius the mesmer and procing slow and Confusion for all enemies struck. 10 ally limit

> Time Sink: Shatter Clones providing stability and healing allies in a 600 unit radius and applying stun and slow for all enemies struck. 10 ally limit.

> Continuum Split: Same as now.

>

> Overall I do feel Chronophantasma is a problem trait akin to Infinite Horizon. As we've seen initially after the phantasm rework and how Anet responded to it, none of the phantasms are allowed to be good in PvP on their own when Chronophantasma exists in it's current form. I'd rather see Chronomancer really augmented into being more of a proper team support the way Firebrand and Tempest are, and if it is winning fights 1v1 it's winning through playing into the themes of Chronomancer, stealing opponents time an accelerating your speed through it. I think an elite spec that augments mesmer's power damage should be reserved for the upcoming third elite spec.

>

> Also after the Signet of Inspiration change mesmer in general has really had zero presence in WvW zerg content. Being able to more easily give allies the Chrono's quickness and Alacrity will help improve it's place in those types of situation.

>

> There's also the serious issue of Chronomancer getting completely sidelined in Fractal content due to how much more easily and reliably the way Firebrand and Renegade provide the Quickness and Alacrity without the need for awkward outdated wells.

 

Well duuuh.

 

I do wanna raise the objection about IH. It was either you or Viquing that put it best way back when. IH was only OP because they didn't adjust staff condi output for clone ambushes. Other than that, IH really doesn't bring all that much to the table other than clone sustain and unique effect depending on weapon used.

[viquing.8254]

@"bravan.3876" :

You know that currently power mirage is more efficient than condi mirage and it will be the case even with 2 evade back isn't it ?

Mean the last condi mes I met, I didn't even have to condi clear, I just wait his 3 sec confusion burst end. And the pressure out of burst is that low you didn't even have to care about it.

So boni to condition dmg or condition duration = 0 x 100% = 0.

Mean you face classes with 5 sec blind with 1.5 sec blinding dissipation...

Full damaging condi build had to take 3 stats : crit, condi, duration. The eternal whine around the supposed 1 or 2 stat only isn't true. Even since they removed condi duration amulet, people took power like sinister or grieving.

The difference between past condi and power mirage and why one was more played was way more about staff versus GS differences as weapons link to the environnement than to the ambushes.

So you objective multiclass opinion who is supposed to highlight us seem pretty out of context.

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> @"bravan.3876" :

> You know that currently power mirage is more efficient than condi mirage and it will be the case even with 2 evade back isn't it ?

> Mean the last condi mes I met, I didn't even have to condi clear, I just wait his 3 sec confusion burst end. And the pressure out of burst is that low you didn't even have to care about it.

> So boni to condition dmg or condition duration = 0 x 100% = 0.

> Mean you face classes with 5 sec blind with 1.5 sec blinding dissipation...

> Full damaging condi build had to take 3 stats : crit, condi, duration. The eternal whine around the supposed 1 or 2 stat only isn't true. Even since they removed condi duration amulet, people took power like sinister or grieving.

> The difference between past condi and power mirage and why one was more played was way more about staff versus GS differences as weapons link to the environnement than to the ambushes.

> So you objective multiclass opinion who is supposed to highlight us seem pretty out of context.

 

You again talk about power lvl and amount of dmg, i talk about mechanical changes, what has nothing to do with how much condi or power dmg will be on the ambush mechanic in the end. I talk about that the mechanic on condi ambushes need to be more similar between power and condi to balance out mc on condi as well. And that means that clone ambushes have either zero (like sword) or very few dmg (like gs) and be more about either buff/debuff effects like gs or utility condis like sword. Meanwhile condi ambushes are still mainly about dmg and nothing else, while even the clone ambushes were almost as potent or even potenter than the mesmers own ambushes. They also were that potent, that shattering them was inferior dmg to let them live for the ambush dmg. They also still include nothing with enough impact except dmg, means nothing a Condimirage could work with more active and differently timed from pure defensive dodging and nothing that gives the incentive to combo ambushes with other skills like weapons/ shatter to give those more value.

 

 

You also again miss, that current Condimirage doesn't even use ih and for that has zero clone ambushes. It also only use Mirages own sword ambush and that not even for the purpose of applying condis. So you compare apples with oranges anyway.

[viquing.8254]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" :

> > You know that currently power mirage is more efficient than condi mirage and it will be the case even with 2 evade back isn't it ?

> > Mean the last condi mes I met, I didn't even have to condi clear, I just wait his 3 sec confusion burst end. And the pressure out of burst is that low you didn't even have to care about it.

> > So boni to condition dmg or condition duration = 0 x 100% = 0.

> > Mean you face classes with 5 sec blind with 1.5 sec blinding dissipation...

> > Full damaging condi build had to take 3 stats : crit, condi, duration. The eternal whine around the supposed 1 or 2 stat only isn't true. Even since they removed condi duration amulet, people took power like sinister or grieving.

> > The difference between past condi and power mirage and why one was more played was way more about staff versus GS differences as weapons link to the environnement than to the ambushes.

> > So you objective multiclass opinion who is supposed to highlight us seem pretty out of context.

>

> You again talk about power lvl and amount of dmg, i talk about mechanical changes, what has nothing to do with how much condi or power dmg will be on the ambush mechanic in the end. I talk about that the mechanic on condi ambushes need to be more similar between power and condi to balance out mc on condi as well. And that means that clone ambushes have either zero (like sword) or very few dmg (like gs) and be more about either buff/debuff effects like gs or utility condis like sword. Meanwhile condi ambushes are still mainly about dmg and nothing else, while even the clone ambushes were almost as potent or even potenter than the mesmers own ambushes. They also were that potent, that shattering them was inferior dmg to let them live for the ambush dmg. They also still include nothing with enough impact except dmg, means nothing a Condimirage could work with more active and differently timed from pure defensive dodging and nothing that gives the incentive to combo ambushes with other skills like weapons/ shatter to give those more value.

>

>

> You also again miss, that current Condimirage doesn't even use ih and for that has zero clone ambushes. It also only use Mirages own sword ambush and that not even for the purpose of applying condis. So you compare apples with oranges anyway.

 

Hmm,

You argument is that power mirage was never a problem. Which has more to do with the fact that it wasn't viable than about the inherent mechanics.

Shattering was inferior to letting them autoing (autoing != ambushes.) because they destroyed shatter condi application. Btw clone auto base damage + duel did way more damage than ambushes. the only moment where condi ambushes were a things was during the 1 month CI hype.

A 1 sec cast high visible 0.5 immob on ambush scepter for example will no have any value since they nerf scepter 3 and contrary to power, condi shatter output can be neutralized by doing nothing.

Same for % damage or % duration.

It's nice to setup first step of a combo but not when there isn't follower.

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" :

> > > You know that currently power mirage is more efficient than condi mirage and it will be the case even with 2 evade back isn't it ?

> > > Mean the last condi mes I met, I didn't even have to condi clear, I just wait his 3 sec confusion burst end. And the pressure out of burst is that low you didn't even have to care about it.

> > > So boni to condition dmg or condition duration = 0 x 100% = 0.

> > > Mean you face classes with 5 sec blind with 1.5 sec blinding dissipation...

> > > Full damaging condi build had to take 3 stats : crit, condi, duration. The eternal whine around the supposed 1 or 2 stat only isn't true. Even since they removed condi duration amulet, people took power like sinister or grieving.

> > > The difference between past condi and power mirage and why one was more played was way more about staff versus GS differences as weapons link to the environnement than to the ambushes.

> > > So you objective multiclass opinion who is supposed to highlight us seem pretty out of context.

> >

> > You again talk about power lvl and amount of dmg, i talk about mechanical changes, what has nothing to do with how much condi or power dmg will be on the ambush mechanic in the end. I talk about that the mechanic on condi ambushes need to be more similar between power and condi to balance out mc on condi as well. And that means that clone ambushes have either zero (like sword) or very few dmg (like gs) and be more about either buff/debuff effects like gs or utility condis like sword. Meanwhile condi ambushes are still mainly about dmg and nothing else, while even the clone ambushes were almost as potent or even potenter than the mesmers own ambushes. They also were that potent, that shattering them was inferior dmg to let them live for the ambush dmg. They also still include nothing with enough impact except dmg, means nothing a Condimirage could work with more active and differently timed from pure defensive dodging and nothing that gives the incentive to combo ambushes with other skills like weapons/ shatter to give those more value.

> >

> >

> > You also again miss, that current Condimirage doesn't even use ih and for that has zero clone ambushes. It also only use Mirages own sword ambush and that not even for the purpose of applying condis. So you compare apples with oranges anyway.

>

> Hmm,

> You argument is that power mirage was never a problem. Which has more to do with the fact that it wasn't viable than about the inherent mechanics.

And that is wrong. I explained long and often enough why and i think doing it again will not make you finally understand.

 

To everything else, yes ofc Condimes needs to have condi dmg on shatters and weaponsskills as useful follow ups. But that is not a Mirage problem that is about how Anet can revert senseless core nerfs (like overnerfing Sharper Images because of the overperformance with scepter ambush, or nerfing shatter condi dmg because of ambushes) after the successful rework of condi ambushes to something equally to power ambushes.

After that mechanical rework which will balance out mc by creating higher opportunity costs and harder decision making in dodge management and force Condimirage more into offensive dodges to time specific utility effects depending on the opponents moves and use offensive dodges to combine ambushes to prepare and support shatter and weaponskill dmg combos you then can tweak the dmg numbers on ambushes, weaponskills and shatters to a balanced lvl. It is the same than for Powermirage which maybe needs some little tweaks on ambushes too when getting 2 dodges back. Because 2 dodges increase also the offensive power from ambushes by making ambushes available more often. But that is up to Anet to fine adjust. But that mechanical rework needs to happen to balance out mc and it has nothing to do with how much dmg Condimirage will have in the end (important is just that clones have no or only very little dmg anymore, equally to power and that Condimirage gets a higher incentive to dodge more offensive).

 

And btw it is not true that condi ambushes were never the problem. Ofc they were, the clone ones at least (scepter and staff most of all). Otherwise the current no-ih Condimirage would still have the same condi dmg and would still play the same weapons because clone normal autoattacks didn't get nerfed

 

[viquing.8254]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> And btw it is not true that condi ambushes were never the problem. Ofc they were, the clone ones at least (scepter and staff most of all). Otherwise the current no-ih Condimirage would still have the same condi dmg and would still play the same weapons because clone normal autoattacks didn't get nerfed

 

They destroy duelling condi output : sharped image killed. Which trust it or not, was the key under the letting clone autoing output.

Otherwise you would see same passive build as prepatch.

About ambushes, you will never hit with chaos ambushes without old CI or by burning blink or jaunt and scepter ambushes were obsiously telegraphied. Mean if an opponent stay between 3 clones (easy to brain thoses IA.) and get hit by a 3 clone setup + visible animation ambush, maybe he should get hurt no ?

You really trust they will give some shatter or weapon output ? Me not. The probability to have follow is around 0. Tha'ts why with dps boost we, at last, didn't have dead traits.

 

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > And btw it is not true that condi ambushes were never the problem. Ofc they were, the clone ones at least (scepter and staff most of all). Otherwise the current no-ih Condimirage would still have the same condi dmg and would still play the same weapons because clone normal autoattacks didn't get nerfed

>

> They destroy duelling condi output : sharped image killed. Which trust it or not, was the key under the letting clone autoing output.

> Otherwise you would see same passive build as prepatch.

> About ambushes, you will never hit with chaos ambushes without old CI or by burning blink or jaunt and scepter ambushes were obsiously telegraphied. Mean if an opponent stay between 3 clones (easy to brain thoses IA.) and get hit by a 3 clone setup + visible animation ambush, maybe he should get hurt no ?

> You really trust they will give some shatter or weapon output ? Me not. The probability to have follow is around 0. Tha'ts why with dps boost we, at last, didn't have dead traits.

>

>

 

Yes i think that, they always nerf and buff things around. When it turns out that Mirage or Condimesmer in general has not enough dmg to compete, then they will buff dmg numbers at some point. But that is a different story to a mechanical rework of Mirage mechanics to balance out mc and give Condimirage the same incentive to dodge pure offensive for combos (combos incl ambushes as preparation for more dmg) and timed utility effects depending on opponents moves. That is simply needed to balance out mc (and it is the easiest way and the most logical way, because the mechanic already exist and is tested live on Powermirage).

It will not even be any different for current Condimirage because they neither use IH nor any ambush to apply condis atm. That is why i don't get why you guys are so afraid that the mechanical change leads to less dmg on Condimirage. It will not even affect current Condimirage builds at all.

 

The only change will affect current Condimesmer builds condi dmg output (Core, Chrono and Mirage) is the deletion of condi dmg on normal clone autoattacks and that is supposed to be compensated by giving that dmg back to shatters.

[viquing.8254]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > And btw it is not true that condi ambushes were never the problem. Ofc they were, the clone ones at least (scepter and staff most of all). Otherwise the current no-ih Condimirage would still have the same condi dmg and would still play the same weapons because clone normal autoattacks didn't get nerfed

> >

> > They destroy duelling condi output : sharped image killed. Which trust it or not, was the key under the letting clone autoing output.

> > Otherwise you would see same passive build as prepatch.

> > About ambushes, you will never hit with chaos ambushes without old CI or by burning blink or jaunt and scepter ambushes were obsiously telegraphied. Mean if an opponent stay between 3 clones (easy to brain thoses IA.) and get hit by a 3 clone setup + visible animation ambush, maybe he should get hurt no ?

> > You really trust they will give some shatter or weapon output ? Me not. The probability to have follow is around 0. Tha'ts why with dps boost we, at last, didn't have dead traits.

> >

> >

>

> Yes i think that, they always nerf and buff things around. When it turns out that Mirage or Condimesmer in general has not enough dmg to compete, then they will buff dmg numbers at some point. But that is a different story to a mechanical rework of Mirage mechanics to balance out mc and give Condimirage the same incentive to dodge pure offensive for combos (combos incl ambushes as preparation for more dmg) and timed utility effects depending on opponents moves. That is simply needed to balance out mc (and it is the easiest way and the most logical way, because the mechanic already exist and is tested live on Powermirage).

> It will not even be any different for current Condimirage because they neither use IH nor any ambush to apply condis atm. That is why i don't get why you guys are so afraid that the mechanical change leads to less dmg on Condimirage. It will not even affect current Condimirage builds at all.

>

> The only change will affect current Condimesmer builds condi dmg output (Core, Chrono and Mirage) is the deletion of condi dmg on normal clone autoattacks and that is supposed to be compensated by giving that dmg back to shatters.

 

I have no problem reworking ambushes.

I'm questionning if it will change anything because for example staff ambush isn't valuable at all, apart during CI where you were sure it will hit, you never burn an offensive dodge for it. If tomorrow it's a condition duration increase with the same hightelegraphed/bugged animation, it will not change anything.

[MidJuly.1839]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > And btw it is not true that condi ambushes were never the problem. Ofc they were, the clone ones at least (scepter and staff most of all). Otherwise the current no-ih Condimirage would still have the same condi dmg and would still play the same weapons because clone normal autoattacks didn't get nerfed

> > >

> > > They destroy duelling condi output : sharped image killed. Which trust it or not, was the key under the letting clone autoing output.

> > > Otherwise you would see same passive build as prepatch.

> > > About ambushes, you will never hit with chaos ambushes without old CI or by burning blink or jaunt and scepter ambushes were obsiously telegraphied. Mean if an opponent stay between 3 clones (easy to brain thoses IA.) and get hit by a 3 clone setup + visible animation ambush, maybe he should get hurt no ?

> > > You really trust they will give some shatter or weapon output ? Me not. The probability to have follow is around 0. Tha'ts why with dps boost we, at last, didn't have dead traits.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yes i think that, they always nerf and buff things around. When it turns out that Mirage or Condimesmer in general has not enough dmg to compete, then they will buff dmg numbers at some point. But that is a different story to a mechanical rework of Mirage mechanics to balance out mc and give Condimirage the same incentive to dodge pure offensive for combos (combos incl ambushes as preparation for more dmg) and timed utility effects depending on opponents moves. That is simply needed to balance out mc (and it is the easiest way and the most logical way, because the mechanic already exist and is tested live on Powermirage).

> > It will not even be any different for current Condimirage because they neither use IH nor any ambush to apply condis atm. That is why i don't get why you guys are so afraid that the mechanical change leads to less dmg on Condimirage. It will not even affect current Condimirage builds at all.

> >

> > The only change will affect current Condimesmer builds condi dmg output (Core, Chrono and Mirage) is the deletion of condi dmg on normal clone autoattacks and that is supposed to be compensated by giving that dmg back to shatters.

>

> I have no problem reworking ambushes.

> I'm questionning if it will change anything because for example staff ambush isn't valuable at all, apart during CI where you were sure it will hit, you never burn an offensive dodge for it. If tomorrow it's a condition duration increase with the same hightelegraphed/bugged animation, it will not change anything.

 

As one of the 3 people that were fiddling with CI, 4 months before BD nerf, I have to disagree.

Even with BD over CI, the staff ambush was netting huge value in PvP due to node system and due to WvW's nature of always having stuff to hit, it was landing its utility procs extremely reliably. Yea maybe the damage portion sucked, but Staff is the ONLY true utility weapon Mesmer has in the game, to date. Ofc, now with Sword nerfs we can prolly put them into a contest which will ultimately end in a draw. So staff ambush is great at what it does.

 

Edit: Now we just need a utility phant for staff 3. The current phant is literally a delayed spawn clone proc on 18 sec CD.

 

Edit2: So why are we hating on Bravan now? Yea he does have a tendency to say, what can be summed in 3 sentences in 4 paragraphs. But he's pretty spot on in his suggestions. I mean everyone gets a silly suggestion every now and then. Hell, I've made more wrong predictions than right ones, over the years. I really wanna drive this whole topic way out, the return of the 2nd dodge is happening one way or another, much like IP it will take time.

 

My reasoning?

Very well. Having Mirage as the only subspec of a class to not have access to 2 dodges which is a fundamental mechanic and will make the entire class less user friendly to new players or older players deciding on an alt pick. You just can't expect that from people in modern day and times. So the 2nd dodge will return, one way or another. They might implement an endurance recovery option much like DrD to compensate, but it will still equate to having a 2nd dodge over time. If we can all agree that this is happening and it likely is the most probable outcome. How do we trade that off? Sustain Bruiser with limited burst, oh so kinda like capping clones at 2 and what the Mesmer community was suggesting all along? Yea exactly that. Sadly they'll likely take a long and convoluted approach.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

hi guys, i want to end the thread soon to finish the final document, i would prefer if we could focus on the topic and dont have any beef (directed at bravan and mortrialus, if you want to continue the who said what topic pls do it with private message if possible, it makes the thread longer and more chaotic than it needs to be).

 

 

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> i am not sure if giving Anet that many different options will rly help. Maybe only give 2 (the ones most ppl can agree to for example) would be enough.

>But i think it doesn't make sense to give consepts to Anet making a lot of unnecessary work with a complete rework of a spec that is working in a balanced and skillful way on some playstyles already.

 

we have 5 different concepts+1 sub-concept until now (while concept F has some different concepts subsumed), i dont think that breaks any limit. overall the document should not be too long yes, but i think giving more than 1 or 2 different options has value. and it also would be too hard to decide which concepts to exclude. they all make sense (even tho i personally do not like them all the same way, mostly the rework to shatters into pure not instant ambush skills is not rly my taste but that doesnt matter) and i also dont rly see a difference in amount of work for anet between concepts A-D (D even makes less work than A). only some ideas from concept F are maybe a bit more work and here anet can decide by themself.

 

but that reminded me, that i wanted to add some more ideas for concept A to discuss with you all:

 

i dunno if giving strong movement preventing condi effects on ambushes will not be oppressive and overly annoying to fight against tbh. so i probs would prefer more dmg boost effect over utility conditions like immob, chill etc.

 

cripple and blind are the only utility effects i think could be okish apart from daze.

 

i could imagine for ex. cripple on axe ambush to have a better chance to keep the target in range of axe2/3. that would be a gread boost to axe and make it more reliable to hit. scepter could get a blind on his single hit, that will not help to hit the whole scepter 3 channel but it can help to cover more of its casttime with blind to make the Mirage less vulnerable during that long cast. alternative staff as defensive utility weapon could get the blind (only on the first target that get hit by the ambushes, staff bouncing makes it a bit harder to balance blind on ambushes out tho) and scepter ambushes get temporary dmg boost effects instead. alternative axe could get a blind, scepter gets cripple to make running out of range harder and staff gets more dmg boost effects. a lot of variants can make sense here.

 

also i think when we change scepter to only one hit we also can think about giving condi mirage one ambush that is not a projectile. i could imagine that for axe the most. for ex. instead the current 2 projectils you turn them into little beam strings (the animation can even stay as it is, since they already look more like beam strings than projectils, just that you cannot reflect/ destroy them anymore).

 

we also should not forget that most condi weapons can also be used on power builds, ambushes should not only buff condi dmg. so we could also just use might and vuln instead specific buffs to condi dmg or duration, bc that would also buff the powerdmg part. i can see that for staff the most bc it already has these "share buffs with allies and spread bad things on enemies"- aspect, it just needs to be change to be more the main purpose. on the staff ambushes fury could be replaced with vuln stacks. more might stacks + vuln stacks in exchange for less dmg on the ambush (mesmers and clones ambushes). to give staff ambushes more the purpose of temporary buffing other skills like shatters/ weapons skills instead being the dmg part itself.

 

the tooltip from ambushes would look like this:

 

**mesmers own ambush:** apply condi dmg to your target on hit (x stacks, for x secs from dmg condition y)+ the usual power dmg part, the target is shortly (immobilized?)/crippled/ blinded for 1/2 or 1/4 secs or x might/vuln stacks for 5 secs (for scepter or staff).

 

**clone ambush:** the target is shortly (immobilized)/ crippled/ blinded on hit, 1/8 max 1/4 secs (no additional clone dmg except the minimum power hit to trigger effects). or: condi dmg/ duration is increased for x% for x secs stacking in intensity after a clone hits its ambush or better x might/vuln stacks for x secs (at max little dmg for clones in addition).

 

while scepter now only hit one time and axe is no projectile anymore. when we add the cripple to axe we could consider to replace the torment with either confusion or bleeding.

 

i dunno, someone has other/ better ideas? also there is room for some more ideas about the sub concept (ih minor trait)

[viquing.8254]

> @"MidJuly.1839" said:

> As one of the 3 people that were fiddling with CI, 4 months before BD nerf, I have to disagree.

> Even with BD over CI, the staff ambush was netting huge value in PvP due to node system and due to WvW's nature of always having stuff to hit, it was landing its utility procs extremely reliably. Yea maybe the damage portion sucked, but Staff is the ONLY true utility weapon Mesmer has in the game, to date. Ofc, now with Sword nerfs we can prolly put them into a contest which will ultimately end in a draw. So staff ambush is great at what it does.

>

> Edit: Now we just need a utility phant for staff 3. The current phant is literally a delayed spawn clone proc on 18 sec CD.

Le me write it more clearly :

you didn't brun a precious evade to do 1 to 3k high animation 1 sec cast projectile offensively.

It was mainly used defensively and I'm note sure bravan suggestion will make it different.

> Edit2: So why are we hating on Bravan now? Yea he does have a tendency to say, what can be summed in 3 sentences in 4 paragraphs. But he's pretty spot on in his suggestions. I mean everyone gets a silly suggestion every now and then. Hell, I've made more wrong predictions than right ones, over the years. I really wanna drive this whole topic way out, the return of the 2nd dodge is happening one way or another, much like IP it will take time.

I want him to go futher in the concrete use case, not just do paper theory who look nice.

Will you burn an offensive staff ambush for a few condi duration ? What will be the follow ?

 

 

 

[viquing.8254]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> hi guys, i want to end the thread soon to finish the final document, i would prefer if we could focus on the topic and dont have any beef (directed at bravan and mortrialus, if you want to continue the who said what topic pls do it with private message if possible, it makes the thread longer and more chaotic than it needs to be).

>

>

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > i am not sure if giving Anet that many different options will rly help. Maybe only give 2 (the ones most ppl can agree to for example) would be enough.

> >But i think it doesn't make sense to give consepts to Anet making a lot of unnecessary work with a complete rework of a spec that is working in a balanced and skillful way on some playstyles already.

>

> we have 5 different consepts+1 sub-consept until now (while consept F has some different consepts subsumed), i dont think that breaks any limit. overall the document should not be too long yes, but i think giving more than 1 or 2 different options has value. and it also would be too hard to decide which consepts to exclude. they all make sense (even tho i personally do not like them all the same way, mostly the rework to shatters into pure not instant ambush skills is not rly my taste but that doesnt matter) and i also dont rly see a difference in amount of work for anet between consepts A-D (D even makes less work than A). only some ideas from consept F are maybe a bit more work and here anet can decide by themself.

>

> but that reminded me, that i wanted to add some more ideas for consept A to discuss with you all:

>

> i dunno if giving strong movement preventing condi effects on ambushes will not be oppressive and overly annoying to fight against tbh. so i probs would prefer more dmg boost effect over utility conditions like immob, chill etc.

>

> cripple and blind are the only utility effects i think could be okish apart from daze.

>

> i could imagine for ex. cripple on axe ambush to have a better chance to keep the target in range of axe2/3. that would be a gread boost to axe and make it more reliable to hit. scepter could get a blind on his single hit, that will not help to hit the whole scepter 3 channel but it can help to cover more of its casttime with blind to make the Mirage less vulnerable during that long cast. alternative staff as defensive utility weapon could get the blind (only on the first target that get hit by the ambushes, staff bouncing makes it a bit harder to balance blind on ambushes out tho) and scepter ambushes get temporary dmg boost effects instead. alternative axe could get a blind, scepter gets cripple to make running out of range harder and staff gets more dmg boost effects. a lot of variants can make sense here.

>

> also i think when we change scepter to only one hit we also can think about giving condi mirage one ambush that is not a projectile. i could imagine that for axe the most. for ex. instead the current 2 projectils you turn them into little beam strings (the animation can even stay as it is, since they already look more like beam strings than projectils, just that you cannot reflect/ destroy them anymore).

>

> we also should not forget that most condi weapons can also be used on power builds, ambushes should not only buff condi dmg. so we could also just use might and vuln instead specific buffs to condi dmg or duration, bc that would also buff the powerdmg part. i can see that for staff the most bc it already has these "share buffs with allies and spread bad things on enemies"- aspect, it just needs to be change to be more the main purpose. on the staff ambushes fury could be replaced with vuln stacks. more might stacks + vuln stacks in exchange for less dmg on the ambush (mesmers and clones ambushes). to give staff ambushes more the purpose of temporary buffing other skills like shatters/ weapons skills instead being the dmg part itself.

>

> the tooltip from ambushes would look like this:

>

> **mesmers own ambush:** apply condi dmg to your target on hit (x stacks, for x secs from dmg condition y)+ the usual power dmg part, the target is shortly (immobilized?)/crippled/ blinded for 1/2 or 1/4 secs or x might/vuln stacks for 5 secs (for scepter or staff).

>

> **clone ambush:** the target is shortly (immobilized)/ crippled/ blinded on hit, 1/8 max 1/4 secs (no additional clone dmg except the minimum power hit to trigger effects). or: condi dmg/ duration is increased for x% for x secs stacking in intensity after a clone hits its ambush or better x might/vuln stacks for x secs (at max little dmg for clones in addition).

>

> while scepter now only hit one time and axe is no projectile anymore. when we add the cripple to axe we could consider to replace the torment with either confusion or bleeding.

>

> i dunno, someone has other/ better ideas? also there is room for some more ideas about the sub consept (ih minor trait)

 

- slow can work with chrono.

- cripple is good to kite the opponent, not to make him stay in melee as we aren't meant to stay melee compred to other class. But I'm probably more for dune cloak output cripple than ambushes.

- superspeed can work everywhere : I'm more for superspeed on axe ambush.

 

Scepter is already fucking cluncky on his auto, giving his ambushes 1 hit feel weird for me. Keep the multiple and give it slow.

[Leonidrex.5649]

Mesmer can be changed in so many ways.

IMO mirage should be mobile burst class.

Core dueling spec

Chrono support or teamfight spec, or just trash.

Examples of things that can be fixed.

1 Buff weapon skills, return mirage dodge, increase F1 and F2 shatter cooldowns for mirage only.

2 SoI issue, make it reduce cooldown of shatter by flat ammout, lets say 20s, this way it fully resets F1, almost fully resets f2, and just resets some of f3/f4 this combined with point 1 will make cmirage unable to F2 twice back to back, even with soi giving some time to react, and less disortion ofc.

3 Just make clones/illusions more sturdy, give them necro shroud treatment where they take 50% less dmg so they can stay alive at least in 1v1/2v2

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

 

> - slow can work with chrono.

> - cripple is good to kite the opponent, not to make him stay in melee as we aren't meant to stay melee compred to other class. But I'm probably more for dune cloak output cripple than ambushes.

> - superspeed can work everywhere : I'm more for superspeed on axe ambush.

>

> Scepter is already kitten cluncky on his auto, giving his ambushes 1 hit feel weird for me. Keep the multiple and give it slow.

 

what you mean with slow can work on chrono in the context of talking about mirage ambushes? im bit confused here ;)

also i think slow on ambushes is like immob and chill maybe a bit too strong tho.

 

i would disagree to the cripple part and that mesmer is a range class. most weapons force you into melee to maximize rewards. autoattacks and ambushes from staff/ scepter hit better/ faster in melee, chaosstrom has most value when you have enemies but also yourself in it, staff 2 burst works only in melee, gs bursts needs to be melee. axe is in general shorter range. sword is melee. mesmer just get some range option in add but no matter what weapons you play, when you just stay in range and cast your stuff you will lose impact remarkable. true, cripple can also have a defensive value by making kiting easier but for lower range weapons like axe it also makes sense to stay in range. it is just the opposite of giving mesmer quickness instead. ofc the advantage from quickness is, that you can dodge for outfight mobility too.

 

the problem with the high amount of single hits with each ambush from scepter is, that you then cant rly add any utility conditions to it which stack in duration or intensity. for ex. how short the slow duration on each single hit needs to be that one ambush from mesmer+clones doesnt apply years of slow in the end? 1/60 sec?

also having only one projectile will make the mesmer stuck less long in the animation. also traits on hit like sharper images are easier to balance then. to give the one hit a better chance to hit it could get a higher projectile speed maybe (so it doesnt end up like guard scepter auto muha)?

 

i also had no problems to hit more than enough ambushes from me and clones on staff and scepter. i only find axe a bit unhandy when it comes to ambushes.

 

superspeed or quickness as ambush bonus is something interesting, so we have not only sword as viable choice for more mobility on weaponsskills. i like that idea. we ofc get it on each dodge anyway so it would just higher the duration of the quickness from the dodge as mobility bonus.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> Chrono just trash.

tfw this is the one and only suggestion anet implements from the whole document :lol:

 

[viquing.8254]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

>

> > - slow can work with chrono.

> > - cripple is good to kite the opponent, not to make him stay in melee as we aren't meant to stay melee compred to other class. But I'm probably more for dune cloak output cripple than ambushes.

> > - superspeed can work everywhere : I'm more for superspeed on axe ambush.

> >

> > Scepter is already kitten cluncky on his auto, giving his ambushes 1 hit feel weird for me. Keep the multiple and give it slow.

>

> what you mean with slow can work on chrono in the context of talking about mirage ambushes? im bit confused here ;)

> also i think slow on ambushes is like immob and chill maybe a bit too strong tho.

Nvm, something who still fill the hole in some chrono builds. Let me dream :).

> i would disagree to the cripple part and that mesmer is a range class. most weapons force you into melee to maximize rewards. autoattacks and ambushes from staff/ scepter hit better/ faster in melee, chaosstrom has most value when you have enemies but also yourself in it, staff 2 burst works only in melee, gs bursts needs to be melee. axe is in general shorter range. sword is melee. mesmer just get some range option in add but no matter what weapons you play, when you just stay in range and cast your stuff you will lose impact remarkable. true, cripple can also have a defensive value by making kiting easier but for lower range weapons like axe it also makes sense to stay in range. it is just the opposite of giving mesmer quickness instead. ofc the advantage from quickness is, that you can dodge for outfight mobility too.

Sure but contrary to other class you can't stay melee. When you go mele it's just few sec then you back to safe spot. That's why cripple on axe didn't seem interesting for me.

 

> the problem with the high amount of single hits with each ambush from scepter is, that you then cant rly add any utility conditions to it which stack in duration or intensity. for ex. how short the slow duration on each single hit needs to be that one ambush from mesmer+clones doesnt apply years of slow in the end? 1/60 sec?

> also having only one projectile will make the mesmer stuck less long in the animation. also traits on hit like sharper images are easier to balance then. to give the one hit a better chance to hit it could get a higher projectile speed maybe (so it doesnt end up like guard scepter auto muha)?

Well if it's a 1 sec cast things, just remember how often old staff phantasm hit something because I'm pretty sure it will be the same.

> i also had no problems to hit more than enough ambushes from me and clones on staff and scepter. i only find axe a bit unhandy when it comes to ambushes.

Axe is meh because of bugging 3 and ambushes who can't backhit for a melee attack where most other class melee follow the opponent.

> superspeed or quickness as ambush bonus is something interesting, so we have not only sword as viable choice for more mobility on weaponsskills. i like that idea. we ofc get it on each dodge anyway so it would just higher the duration of the quickness from the dodge as mobility bonus.

I like it more than some other condi proc and it fill power as well.

 

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

haha ok *dreams in chrono* :)

yes but cripple can help for both or not? you can keep targets in range of your weapon skills but it will also help you to kite when needed

i think it should be possible to make the one hit scepter ambush handy and reliable to hit by fine tuning projectile speed and cast time a bit

[MidJuly.1839]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"MidJuly.1839" said:

> > As one of the 3 people that were fiddling with CI, 4 months before BD nerf, I have to disagree.

> > Even with BD over CI, the staff ambush was netting huge value in PvP due to node system and due to WvW's nature of always having stuff to hit, it was landing its utility procs extremely reliably. Yea maybe the damage portion sucked, but Staff is the ONLY true utility weapon Mesmer has in the game, to date. Ofc, now with Sword nerfs we can prolly put them into a contest which will ultimately end in a draw. So staff ambush is great at what it does.

> >

> > Edit: Now we just need a utility phant for staff 3. The current phant is literally a delayed spawn clone proc on 18 sec CD.

> Le me write it more clearly :

> you didn't brun a precious evade to do 1 to 3k high animation 1 sec cast projectile offensively.

> It was mainly used defensively and I'm note sure bravan suggestion will make it different.

> > Edit2: So why are we hating on Bravan now? Yea he does have a tendency to say, what can be summed in 3 sentences in 4 paragraphs. But he's pretty spot on in his suggestions. I mean everyone gets a silly suggestion every now and then. Hell, I've made more wrong predictions than right ones, over the years. I really wanna drive this whole topic way out, the return of the 2nd dodge is happening one way or another, much like IP it will take time.

> I want him to go futher in the concrete use case, not just do paper theory who look nice.

> Will you burn an offensive staff ambush for a few condi duration ? What will be the follow ?

>

>

>

 

+1 Wanna Join Me and Curunen in the brainstorming team?

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"MidJuly.1839" said:

> > As one of the 3 people that were fiddling with CI, 4 months before BD nerf, I have to disagree.

> > Even with BD over CI, the staff ambush was netting huge value in PvP due to node system and due to WvW's nature of always having stuff to hit, it was landing its utility procs extremely reliably. Yea maybe the damage portion sucked, but Staff is the ONLY true utility weapon Mesmer has in the game, to date. Ofc, now with Sword nerfs we can prolly put them into a contest which will ultimately end in a draw. So staff ambush is great at what it does.

> >

> > Edit: Now we just need a utility phant for staff 3. The current phant is literally a delayed spawn clone proc on 18 sec CD.

> Le me write it more clearly :

> you didn't brun a precious evade to do 1 to 3k high animation 1 sec cast projectile offensively.

> It was mainly used defensively and I'm note sure bravan suggestion will make it different.

 

That is around the dmg on one target gs ambush does on the interrupt mirage build, what still dodges offensive on gs (the channeltime on gs is also 1 second, both staff and gs can hit more than one target). I just tried it and often didn't do more than 1,6k with one gs ambush (no clone) on npcs and golems in the mists. Means gs Mirage do not rly dodge for the ambush dmg itself in the first place, they dodge offensive for the buff and debuff effect to have overall more dmg on other skills after that. Dodge dmg traits doing up to 3k is more than enough reward, or you want such broken stuff like on Holo atm? When the pure dmg reward gets too high it will not give any incentive to dodge offensive either because the dmg is so high that dodging pure defensive and hitting the op dmg here and there as passive side effect would be rewarding enough. The pure dmg part needs to hit a specific equilibrium where it is neither too high (because then offensive dodging is not necessary to get enoguh reward out of the dodge trait) but also not too low (what would makes the reward not worth an offensive dodge). Means up to 3k dmg + buff/debuff effects is already pretty good. When staff gets more of the buff/debuff stuff to create the need to combo it with other skills (shatters/ weapons) then it will create the incentive to dodge offensive. When the dmg without ambushes on Mirage isn't already high enough, that it doesn't need to use ambushes offensive to have enough dmg then it will work. Deleting the condi dmg from normal clone autoattacks will also lead to more need to use dodges more offensive for ambushes to have enough dmg. Just as it already is on Powermirage. A Powermirage not dodging offensive will not even come near the dmg of core (in terms of burst anyway but also over time). While old Condi IH Mirage even had enough dmg to use another defensive traitline (Chaos) and still had enough or even more dmg than a condi Coremes using Illusion and Duelling (another point btw, for a full dmg build Condimes only needs 2 traitlines, while Powermes needs 3 to compete with core in terms of dmg).

 

 

> > Edit2: So why are we hating on Bravan now? Yea he does have a tendency to say, what can be summed in 3 sentences in 4 paragraphs. But he's pretty spot on in his suggestions. I mean everyone gets a silly suggestion every now and then. Hell, I've made more wrong predictions than right ones, over the years. I really wanna drive this whole topic way out, the return of the 2nd dodge is happening one way or another, much like IP it will take time.

> I want him to go futher in the concrete use case, not just do paper theory who look nice.

> Will you burn an offensive staff ambush for a few condi duration ? What will be the follow ?

>

>

>

 

Do not hesitate to come up with a staff rework that would give you enough incentive to dodge offensive for. What needs to happen to staff for you then? Just saying my suggestion will not do it is easy. So what would do it in your view?

 

It is rly hard to discuss with someone always downtalking stuff and think nothing that has counterplay is viable. You even defended old CI as not broken. You understate the value from condi builds and skills a lot in my view. For example yes scepter 3 got nerfs, but it still does good dmg. Just as scepter and staff ambushes are better than you try to make them look like.

 

 

@"Jazz.4639" @"viquing.8254"

 

I also miss how superspeed or quickness would create the incentive/ need to dodge offensive? Those are effects don't need specific timing, they are always useful and also not strong enough to give offensive dodges enough value (it would be enough for the Mirage to get them as passive side effect when dodging an attack). Also blind is a defensive effect that does not create the need to dodge offensive or to time them well just for the blind (you just dodge the attack you need to dodge and be happy that you don't need to dodge the next attack because blind is passively applied too). It just will higher the defensive uptime from a dodge. The difference to daze is, that daze also has an offensive value and when you can combine it with vulnerability stack traits as Powermirage can and even have another restriction to interrupt to get additional value, then you have a very high incentive and need to dodge offensive to time those dazes for more burst combo dmg or for an interrupt.

 

I understand the concerns that immob, slow and chill are maybe op for ambushes but on the other side in particular immobilize creates a need to dodge offensive to prepare a shatter or scepter 3 burst. And when it is well animated with decent but not too fast projectil speed (like Engi rifle 2) and not too long duration then it will have enough counterplay. With that scepter will be the sword equivalent with main purpose utility condition (but immob instead daze).

 

Means i would make scepter ambushes make one hit skill, applying immob in additon to confusion dmg on Mirages own ambush, no additional dmg on clones ambushes.

 

Staff just gets more buff/ debuff main purpose and less dmg purpose comparable to gs. Replacing fury with vulnerability stacks seems to make sense for that.

 

Axe: Who said condi weapons cannot have the same utility effect than a power weapon? There is no need tryharding to find another utility effect that might or might not work well. I think axe can get a daze just like sword (maybe that would even make Ineptitude an interesting trait again. Also condi builds want to use boonremove trait Vicious Expression or the more defensive trait PB don't need to use sword for it, a weapon with zero condi dmg application). Turning axe into beams instead projectiles would make sense here.

 

Other possibilities:

1. Axe can just get buff/debuff boni and become a second equivalent to gs in its mechanics.

2. Axe could also become some kind of hybrid between gs and sword. Means it gets more buff/debuff effects (might/vulnstacks) but less than gs and also gets a short cripple or superspeed in addition. Clones would only apply the utility/debuff effects.

 

[MidJuly.1839]

In case any of you were wondering,

Scepter 3's average channel damage is the same as Axe 3.

[MidJuly.1839]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"MidJuly.1839" said:

> > As one of the 3 people that were fiddling with CI, 4 months before BD nerf, I have to disagree.

> > Even with BD over CI, the staff ambush was netting huge value in PvP due to node system and due to WvW's nature of always having stuff to hit, it was landing its utility procs extremely reliably. Yea maybe the damage portion sucked, but Staff is the ONLY true utility weapon Mesmer has in the game, to date. Ofc, now with Sword nerfs we can prolly put them into a contest which will ultimately end in a draw. So staff ambush is great at what it does.

> >

> > Edit: Now we just need a utility phant for staff 3. The current phant is literally a delayed spawn clone proc on 18 sec CD.

> Le me write it more clearly :

> you didn't brun a precious evade to do 1 to 3k high animation 1 sec cast projectile offensively.

> It was mainly used defensively and I'm note sure bravan suggestion will make it different.

> > Edit2: So why are we hating on Bravan now? Yea he does have a tendency to say, what can be summed in 3 sentences in 4 paragraphs. But he's pretty spot on in his suggestions. I mean everyone gets a silly suggestion every now and then. Hell, I've made more wrong predictions than right ones, over the years. I really wanna drive this whole topic way out, the return of the 2nd dodge is happening one way or another, much like IP it will take time.

> I want him to go futher in the concrete use case, not just do paper theory who look nice.

> Will you burn an offensive staff ambush for a few condi duration ? What will be the follow ?

>

>

>

 

Thank you for clarifying. I completely agree.