[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

 

> I understand the concerns that immob, slow and chill are maybe op for ambushes but on the other side in particular immobilize creates a need to dodge offensive to prepare a shatter or scepter 3 burst. And when it is well animated with decent but not too fast projectil speed (like Engi rifle 2) and not too long duration then it will have enough counterplay. With that scepter will be the sword equivalent with main purpose utility condition (but immob instead daze).

>

> Means i would make scepter ambushes make one hit skill, applying immob in additon to confusion dmg on Mirages own ambush, no additional dmg on clones ambushes.

>

> Staff just gets more buff/ debuff main purpose and less dmg purpose comparable to gs. Replacing fury with vulnerability stacks seems to make sense for that.

>

> Axe: Who said condi weapons cannot have the same utility effect than a power weapon? There is no need tryharding to find another utility effect that might or might not work well. I think axe can get a daze just like sword (maybe that would even make Ineptitude an interesting trait again. Also condi builds want to use boonremove trait Vicious Expression or the more defensive trait PB don't need to use sword for it, a weapon with zero condi dmg application). Turning axe into beams instead projectiles would make sense here.

>

> Other possibilities:

> 1. Axe can just get buff/debuff boni and become a second equivalent to gs in its mechanics.

> 2. Axe could also become some kind of hybrid between gs and sword. Means it gets more buff/debuff effects (might/vulnstacks) but less than gs and also gets a short cripple or superspeed in addition. Clones would only apply the utility/debuff effects.

>

 

so you will give a mirage using both, axe and scepter, the ability to stun on dodge? thats wowzi oO i think it will be better to avoid stacking 2 that strong no-dmg conditions into one playstyle. its better when we only have one condi weapon acting like sword and 2 acting more like gs. daze on axe or scepter? why not, but then give might and vuln stacks or make it a hybrid between sword and gs as you say with bit lower might/vuln and a short superspeed/quickness or cripple boni to the other one. maybe we also can just give the basic idea to anet without getting too concrete and let anet think about what effects condi weapons could get to reach the goal to create the need to dodge offensive. they did it well for power weapons, they should be able to do it well for condi weapons too.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"bravan.3876"

gs ambush has cast time of 1,25s not 1s. Its also heavily weighted at the end, the start of the cast does no damage, you cant cover it with the dodge so its not even close to "on dodge" trait.

[viquing.8254]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> That is around the dmg on one target gs ambush does on the interrupt mirage build, what still dodges offensive on gs (the channeltime on gs is also 1 second, both staff and gs can hit more than one target). I just tried it and often didn't do more than 1,6k with one gs ambush (no clone) on npcs and golems in the mists. Means gs Mirage do not rly dodge for the ambush dmg itself in the first place, they dodge offensive for the buff and debuff effect to have overall more dmg on other skills after that. Dodge dmg traits doing up to 3k is more than enough reward, or you want such broken stuff like on Holo atm? When the pure dmg reward gets too high it will not give any incentive to dodge offensive either because the dmg is so high that dodging pure defensive and hitting the op dmg here and there as passive side effect would be rewarding enough. The pure dmg part needs to hit a specific equilibrium where it is neither too high (because then offensive dodging is not necessary to get enoguh reward out of the dodge trait) but also not too low (what would makes the reward not worth an offensive dodge). Means up to 3k dmg + buff/debuff effects is already pretty good. When staff gets more of the buff/debuff stuff to create the need to combo it with other skills (shatters/ weapons) then it will create the incentive to dodge offensive. When the dmg without ambushes on Mirage isn't already high enough, that it doesn't need to use ambushes offensive to have enough dmg then it will work. Deleting the condi dmg from normal clone autoattacks will also lead to more need to use dodges more offensive for ambushes to have enough dmg. Just as it already is on Powermirage. A Powermirage not dodging offensive will not even come near the dmg of core (in terms of burst anyway but also over time). While old Condi IH Mirage even had enough dmg to use another defensive traitline (Chaos) and still had enough or even more dmg than a condi Coremes using Illusion and Duelling (another point btw, for a full dmg build Condimes only needs 2 traitlines, while Powermes needs 3 to compete with core in terms of dmg).

Yeah but GS ambush has a way higher hitrate than staff : not a projectile, canalysed.

A skill who put 3k+ on 1 sec cast time + high animation isn't a problem at all considering the amount of skills who do the same damage with way less tell. Unless you want mesmer to never have pressure output like when they balance scepter 3 to the same level of necro axe 2 then nerf it.

Don't count on weapon skills to condi pressure.

Burst come from shatter, core is about condi burst. Mirage should be about sustain pressure thanks to ambushes IMO.

Stfu about you "defensive" traitline hate hile we already discuss it wasn't the case. There is 7 traitline not 5. Chaos was taken for build synergy. And I don't consider a 15 sec setup as enough damage... There is traitlines with differents traits and skills synergy and vigor on shatter, fury on crit or regen on health below are the same.

Stay stuck in your "skill" vision if you want but don't use it as an argument.

 

> Do not hesitate to come up with a staff rework that would give you enough incentive to dodge offensive for. What needs to happen to staff for you then? Just saying my suggestion will not do it is easy. So what would do it in your view?

We first have to remove condi on clone auto and bring output on phantasm/2 then looking at what can be do, for the moment the thing staff is missing the most is damage output.

Now if you really want to fill your original idea, a pulsing180 0.25 daze on the same 1 sec animation will be way more fun to play than row "condi duration".

> It is rly hard to discuss with someone always downtalking stuff and think nothing that has counterplay is viable. You even defended old CI as not broken. You understate the value from condi builds and skills a lot in my view. For example yes scepter 3 got nerfs, but it still does good dmg. Just as scepter and staff ambushes are better than you try to make them look like.

Like it is to discuss with someone always wanted everything to go into one monogameplay for the sake of his vision of "skill". Always taking off what other class can do because he can't understand balance has to do with the environnement, not with 1 class only paper theory craft.

 

> @"Jazz.4639" @"viquing.8254"

> I also miss how superspeed or quickness would create the incentive/ need to dodge offensive? Those are effects don't need specific timing, they are always useful and also not strong enough to give offensive dodges enough value (it would be enough for the Mirage to get them as passive side effect when dodging an attack). Also blind is a defensive effect that does not create the need to dodge offensive or to time them well just for the blind (you just dodge the attack you need to dodge and be happy that you don't need to dodge the next attack because blind is passively applied too). It just will higher the defensive uptime from a dodge. The difference to daze is, that daze also has an offensive value and when you can combine it with vulnerability stack traits as Powermirage can and even have another restriction to interrupt to get additional value, then you have a very high incentive and need to dodge offensive to time those dazes for more burst combo dmg or for an interrupt.

> I understand the concerns that immob, slow and chill are maybe op for ambushes but on the other side in particular immobilize creates a need to dodge offensive to prepare a shatter or scepter 3 burst. And when it is well animated with decent but not too fast projectil speed (like Engi rifle 2) and not too long duration then it will have enough counterplay. With that scepter will be the sword equivalent with main purpose utility condition (but immob instead daze).

> Means i would make scepter ambushes make one hit skill, applying immob in additon to confusion dmg on Mirages own ambush, no additional dmg on clones ambushes.

> Staff just gets more buff/ debuff main purpose and less dmg purpose comparable to gs. Replacing fury with vulnerability stacks seems to make sense for that.

> Axe: Who said condi weapons cannot have the same utility effect than a power weapon? There is no need tryharding to find another utility effect that might or might not work well. I think axe can get a daze just like sword (maybe that would even make Ineptitude an interesting trait again. Also condi builds want to use boonremove trait Vicious Expression or the more defensive trait PB don't need to use sword for it, a weapon with zero condi dmg application). Turning axe into beams instead projectiles would make sense here.

> Other possibilities:

> 1. Axe can just get buff/debuff boni and become a second equivalent to gs in its mechanics.

> 2. Axe could also become some kind of hybrid between gs and sword. Means it gets more buff/debuff effects (might/vulnstacks) but less than gs and also gets a short cripple or superspeed in addition. Clones would only apply the utility/debuff effects.

>

If you ever used axe versus every class who has swiftness, you should enjoy superspeed on ambush, for both uses.

The problem with chill is like when they give slow access to everyone, it destroy class differentiation.

Again I'm note for one hit on scepter because of how much time old staff phantasm hit failed. Too much unreliable and engi rifle is instant cast, not 1 sec animation+ slow projectile. If it is a instant cast with same projectile speed as rifle 2, why not then.

Staff did already no damage, which other class has one full utility 0 damage weapon ?

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

True, i forgot about that. But then we have the problem with each other weapon we try to make similar to sword. Sword is a weapon can be used on all playstyles (condi, hybrid, power), it can be combined with every other weapon in a way that has synergy (because of the mostly utility nature of that weapon). For example with daze on axe look at current build from that na guy Countless using axe and sword. He will then have daze ambushes on both weaponsets. Probably not as strong as immob+daze but for certain also annoying to face. Maybe we just found the reason why Anet didn't create 2 weapons in the style of sword, because they could be both combined for too oppressive utility condi spam. That would mean, that neither staff, axe or scepter should get a strong utility effect and need to be all more similar to gs and not to sword. The hybrid variant with less might/vulnstacks + minor/ weaker utlity condition like cripple or minor buffs like quickness would then be the only way to get some more different weapontypes and playstyle and not make 4 weapons mechanically the same (all like gs).

It seems to be complicated to redesign condi ambushes, seems good to me we only give the general idea and let Anet decide what they think is a good rework to pressure Condimirages more into offensive dodges.

 

 

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> Yeah but GS ambush has a way higher hitrate than staff : not a projectile, canalysed.

> A skill who put 3k+ on 1 sec cast time + high animation isn't a problem at all considering the amount of skills who do the same damage with way less tell. Unless you want mesmer to never have pressure output like when they balance scepter 3 to the same level of necro axe 2 then nerf it.

> Don't count on weapon skills to condi pressure.

> Burst come from shatter, core is about condi burst. Mirage should be about sustain pressure thanks to ambushes IMO.

 

As said, i think you talk staff ambush and autoattack dmg down too much and you literally do that with almost all condi related skills, but whatever. Also when you as one of the very few Mesmers mains had problems to hit staff and scepter ambushes decently, you maybe should rethink how you position yourself and your clones. More than one Mesmer main (just as me as multiclass player playing it myself from time to time) already told you, that hittting those ambushes never were any issue for them/me. And: Even after the nerfs staff ambuhs is still pretty potent by itself. The moment Mirage has 2 dodges back it would be a very stong pick for the ambush alone (with IH).

 

> kitten about you "defensive" traitline hate hile we already discuss it wasn't the case. There is 7 traitline not 5. Chaos was taken for build synergy. And I don't consider a 15 sec setup as enough damage... There is traitlines with differents traits and skills synergy and vigor on shatter, fury on crit or regen on health below are the same.

> Stay stuck in your "skill" vision if you want but don't use it as an argument.

Please stop, there was no defensive traitline hate included, it was just a factual analysis of how many offensive traitlines condi builds need compared to power builds for the same dmg output. If you don't even get that obvious stuff, we are at a point again where it doesn't make sense to even continue talking. Fact is, on Powermirage the transfer from burst to more sustain dmg was more a success than on condi, simply because power builds rly have to give up 1 out of 3 usually used pure dmg traitlines in core builds, while condi builds always only used 2 pure dmg traitlines. Means, when they spec into Mirage they barely give up anything compared to core condi builds in terms of dmg. As often condi builds are allowed to spec more into sustain than power builds (not only on Mesmer and not only on traitlines, it is the same with stats). You cannot talk those facts away.

 

Btw based on above thoughts i also would recommend to add a condi dmg stat penalty (and maybe a power stat penalty but this one lower than the condi stat penalty because of above thoughts) in addition to the vita penalty suggested in consept c. That way condi builds have to give up the condi burst potential from core shatters in exchange for dmg-boost effects on Mesmers own ambushes, that will create more need to prepare shatter and weaponskill bursts with an ambush to stack might and vulnerability before. Could @"mortrialus.3062" agree to that addition? Imo only Powermirage rly needs to give up some burst potential on shatter combos and overall dmg on weaponskills (by either losing Illusion, Duelling or Domination traitline) compared to core. The dmg and might/vulnstacks on condi ambushes ofc then need to be potent enough to compensate for the stat penalty, means a Condimirage using dodges offensive to push the shatter dmg on burst combos will have around the same dmg than core when played well mechanically. Just that the dmg is not only from shatters but from ambushes dmg+buff/debuff+shatters/weaponskills buffed by ambushes. With adding a power stat penalty it might be not necessary anymore to nerf the dmg lvl from power ambushes when giving 2 dodges back. This stat penalty should not lower the Mirages condi or power dmg, it should just transfer the dmg from shatters itself to the Mirages own ambushes in terms of buff/debuff effects+the dmg part). So that the Mirage is forced into offensive dodges to make shatter and weaponskill combos as potent as on core.

 

 

> Now if you really want to fill your original idea, a pulsing180 0.25 daze on the same 1 sec animation will be way more fun to play than row "condi duration".

 

Greatsword Mesmer ofc would maybe also prefer more dazes on their ambushes, the problem is what i already said to Jazz: By now i think there was a reason Anet only developed one weapon like sword and the other weapons were only about dmg. Means it might be not balanced to turn a second weapon into something like sword. Adding buff/ debuff effects (best way is to use might/vuln just like on gs and not only condi dmg or duration buffs) to create the need to dodge offensive to buff shatter and weaponskills by a pre-used ambush is maybe the only way (but see above my answer to Jazz).

 

 

> Like it is to discuss with someone always wanted everything to go into one monogameplay for the sake of his vision of "skill". Always taking off what other class can do because he can't understand balance has to do with the environnement, not with 1 class only paper theory craft.

 

No, i don't want monogameplay, i just want other playstyles to be skillful and interesting to play too. I never said delete Condimes and nerf it into the ground, i just say it needs to be mechanically harder to play. Not necessary weaker in its power lvl (it should still be viable but only when played well, not for every noob to be carried 2 divisions above his actual skill lvl as from old CI Mirage or current Holo/ Condirev).

 

 

> Again I'm note for one hit on scepter because of how much time old staff phantasm hit failed. Too much unreliable and engi rifle is instant cast, not 1 sec animation+ slow projectile. If it is a instant cast with same projectile speed as rifle 2, why not then.

 

Scepter atm is a channel not a cast and that is why it is that long. The problem with no casttime or very short casttime on single hit ambush skills is, that Anet obviously want ambushes to be interruptable at some point and not 100% covered by the dodge frame. But to compensate for the longer casttime (compared to Engi rifle) the projectile speed could be made like instant (or as Jazz suggested make scepter the no projectile ambush and give it a cast animation on the char which can be interrupted for 1/4 secs after the dodge frame but then the skill reward will hit instant on the target when not interrupted or dodged. Means no traveltime at all (like berserker warrior rifle f1 skill but with pre animation on the char and when the animation is finished an instant hit speed when the warrior finally shoots). That would just replace the instant part from the casttime to the traveltime. Could you agree to that?

 

[Obliviscaris.6937]

Is anything actually going to come out of this? I'm not convinced. Between this and the 'wE hAvE nO pLaNs' twitch convo rumour and and this "Getting players to do our job" CIRCUS of a scenario. I'd love to hear that CmC isn't full of absolute dogshit but absolutely NOTHING has led me to believe this to be the case.

[Yoci.2481]

Well we have three options:

 

1) Crying on the forums.

2) This thread.

3) Doing a Kickstarter to buy out ArenaNet.

 

Number 1 is my favourite but while fun it is not very effective. Number 3 is the most effective solution but a bit unrealistic. So we should probably do number 2.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Yoci.2481" said:

> Well we have three options:

>

> 1) Crying on the forums.

> 2) This thread.

> 3) Doing a Kickstarter to buy out ArenaNet.

>

> Number 1 is my favourite but while fun it is not very effective. Number 3 is the most effective solution but a bit unrealistic. So we should probably do number 2.

 

4th option - don't care and just play gw2 casually in between other games. ;)

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"Obliviscaris.6937" said:

> Is anything actually going to come out of this? I'm not convinced. Between this and the 'wE hAvE nO pLaNs' twitch convo rumour and and this "Getting players to do our job" CIRCUS of a scenario. I'd love to hear that CmC isn't full of absolute kitten but absolutely NOTHING has led me to believe this to be the case.

 

i will finish the document the next days (just a bit exhausted atm and limited in free time) and cmc said in the big discussion he did with the class coaches that he will at least read it and think about suggestions put in short documents. he ofc said that he cannot promis anything but i think at least open his mind for mechanical problems will help, maybe not tomorrow, maybe in a year (since anet is slow as you can see with ip on chrono), but sooner or later they have to react to the pressure and the fact that mesmer is not rly played atm.

[viquing.8254]

@"bravan.3876" :

I think staff ambush are meh yeah, sorry to face plat3 player everyday, not pillar, who easily brain illusions. Now if your skill balance do the hypothesis you face statue we will always win the noob killer mention. Mean if they can't manage a 1 sec obvious cast ambush, how did they survive versus any meta class who do more damage for half cast time and bugged animation.

I you want to play this game we can even look how much "offensive" ambush were done prepatch on random mighty mAt stream, you know when there were the 2 dodges.

 

Just for you concern, people don't took illusion and duelling when playing condi not because they want to take a supposed defensive traitline but because there is no build synergy with the two : illusion is around condi burst on shatter and duelling was around illusions/phantasm attacks Note that at PoF beginning meta build were around duelling and illusion. But to make good theory craft and no completly unviable build you have to put your "skill" bias beside.

 

Before thinking about condi penalty, base output from weapon has to be adjusted so people can't just sleep in point totally ignoring the mes. Mean just 5 min ago I was fighting a condimes he was totally ignored all the game and I'm on jazz build with near 0 condiclear. This is a problem.

 

A pulsing aoe rupt ins't like sword and with low range you need to put you in danger to make it work. Now if the only "skill" mesmer can have is around rupt and lock in general we fall in the monogameplay always same traits hype.

 

A long animation instant hit speed on scepter ambush fall again in the noobkiller things, plat2+ player will never get hit by it, noobs will get eaten alive. What we lack is key skill who put pressure not one more combo with 50 counters.

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

>

>

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > Yeah but GS ambush has a way higher hitrate than staff : not a projectile, canalysed.

> > A skill who put 3k+ on 1 sec cast time + high animation isn't a problem at all considering the amount of skills who do the same damage with way less tell. Unless you want mesmer to never have pressure output like when they balance scepter 3 to the same level of necro axe 2 then nerf it.

> > Don't count on weapon skills to condi pressure.

> > Burst come from shatter, core is about condi burst. Mirage should be about sustain pressure thanks to ambushes IMO.

> Btw based on above thoughts i also would recommend to add a condi dmg stat penalty (and maybe a power stat penalty but this one lower than the condi stat penalty because of above thoughts) in addition to the vita penalty suggested in consept C.

 

"Hey guys what if Mirage had less health, and less power damage, and less, condition damage. That's a good idea right."

 

Fucking lol

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> >

> >

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > Yeah but GS ambush has a way higher hitrate than staff : not a projectile, canalysed.

> > > A skill who put 3k+ on 1 sec cast time + high animation isn't a problem at all considering the amount of skills who do the same damage with way less tell. Unless you want mesmer to never have pressure output like when they balance scepter 3 to the same level of necro axe 2 then nerf it.

> > > Don't count on weapon skills to condi pressure.

> > > Burst come from shatter, core is about condi burst. Mirage should be about sustain pressure thanks to ambushes IMO.

> > Btw based on above thoughts i also would recommend to add a condi dmg stat penalty (and maybe a power stat penalty but this one lower than the condi stat penalty because of above thoughts) in addition to the vita penalty suggested in consept C.

>

> "Hey guys what if Mirage had less health, and less power damage, and less, condition damage. That's a good idea right."

>

> kitten lol

 

-1 dodge

-vitality

-power damage

-condition damage

Perfectly balanced, as all things should be

[bravan.3876]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > Yeah but GS ambush has a way higher hitrate than staff : not a projectile, canalysed.

> > > > A skill who put 3k+ on 1 sec cast time + high animation isn't a problem at all considering the amount of skills who do the same damage with way less tell. Unless you want mesmer to never have pressure output like when they balance scepter 3 to the same level of necro axe 2 then nerf it.

> > > > Don't count on weapon skills to condi pressure.

> > > > Burst come from shatter, core is about condi burst. Mirage should be about sustain pressure thanks to ambushes IMO.

> > > Btw based on above thoughts i also would recommend to add a condi dmg stat penalty (and maybe a power stat penalty but this one lower than the condi stat penalty because of above thoughts) in addition to the vita penalty suggested in consept C.

> >

> > "Hey guys what if Mirage had less health, and less power damage, and less, condition damage. That's a good idea right."

> >

> > kitten lol

>

> -1 dodge

> -vitality

> -power damage

> -condition damage

> Perfectly balanced, as all things should be

 

You guys are big brain again. First of all you get +1 dodge that is what the consept d is about. -vita was not my suggestion i just added the dmg penalty to transfer burst shatter dmg to ambush might/vulnstacks, in a way that a Mirage using his 2 dodges also offensive has same dmg then core just not from shatters/ weapons alone (as it is on core) but more from comboing ambushes with shatters and weaponskills. Means the dmg penalty is just a transfer from dmg not a dmg nerf. I explained that good enough and you still don't get it. Kind of sad.

[MidJuly.1839]

Deleted /15chars

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > > Yeah but GS ambush has a way higher hitrate than staff : not a projectile, canalysed.

> > > > > A skill who put 3k+ on 1 sec cast time + high animation isn't a problem at all considering the amount of skills who do the same damage with way less tell. Unless you want mesmer to never have pressure output like when they balance scepter 3 to the same level of necro axe 2 then nerf it.

> > > > > Don't count on weapon skills to condi pressure.

> > > > > Burst come from shatter, core is about condi burst. Mirage should be about sustain pressure thanks to ambushes IMO.

> > > > Btw based on above thoughts i also would recommend to add a condi dmg stat penalty (and maybe a power stat penalty but this one lower than the condi stat penalty because of above thoughts) in addition to the vita penalty suggested in consept C.

> > >

> > > "Hey guys what if Mirage had less health, and less power damage, and less, condition damage. That's a good idea right."

> > >

> > > kitten lol

> >

> > -1 dodge

> > -vitality

> > -power damage

> > -condition damage

> > Perfectly balanced, as all things should be

>

> You guys are big brain again. First of all you get +1 dodge that is what the consept d is about. -vita was not my suggestion i just added the dmg penalty to transfer burst shatter dmg to ambush might/vulnstacks, in a way that a Mirage using his 2 dodges also offensive has same dmg then core just not from shatters/ weapons alone (as it is on core) but more from comboing ambushes with shatters and weaponskills. Means the dmg penalty is just a transfer from dmg not a dmg nerf. I explained that good enough and you still don't get it. Kind of sad.

 

bruh


 

[Kylden Ar.3724]

I am really starting to think that Bravan is an alt account for Bad Med....

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> @"bravan.3876" :

> I think staff ambush are meh yeah, sorry to face plat3 player everyday, not pillar, who easily brain illusions. Now if your skill balance do the hypothesis you face statue we will always win the noob killer mention. Mean if they can't manage a 1 sec obvious cast ambush, how did they survive versus any meta class who do more damage for half cast time and bugged animation.

> I you want to play this game we can even look how much "offensive" ambush were done prepatch on random mighty mAt stream, you know when there were the 2 dodges.

>

> Just for you concern, people don't took illusion and duelling when playing condi not because they want to take a supposed defensive traitline but because there is no build synergy with the two : illusion is around condi burst on shatter and duelling was around illusions/phantasm attacks Note that at PoF beginning meta build were around duelling and illusion. But to make good theory craft and no completly unviable build you have to put your "skill" bias beside.

>

> Before thinking about condi penalty, base output from weapon has to be adjusted so people can't just sleep in point totally ignoring the mes. Mean just 5 min ago I was fighting a condimes he was totally ignored all the game and I'm on jazz build with near 0 condiclear. This is a problem.

>

> A pulsing aoe rupt ins't like sword and with low range you need to put you in danger to make it work. Now if the only "skill" mesmer can have is around rupt and lock in general we fall in the monogameplay always same traits hype.

>

> A long animation instant hit speed on scepter ambush fall again in the noobkiller things, plat2+ player will never get hit by it, noobs will get eaten alive. What we lack is key skill who put pressure not one more combo with 50 counters.

>

 

Viquing seriously, it doesn't matter why ppl choose what they choose, fact is, there are only 2 traitlines giving clearly offensive power (dmg) for condi, if we ignore the offensive boons in Chaos. Means even when you want to play a pure glass condi build with 3 offensive traitlines you will not find a 3. Domination never rly gave anything to condi builds (at least not until they changed vulnerability to work also on condis). Domination atm is used for the utility (boonremove) not for any condi pressure. And it is used in a hybrid build because for a pure condi build Domination would be less useful than any of the other traitlines. That is just a fact. Means while power builds can go for Domination/ Duelling/ Illusion and get lot of power dmg out of each of them, do condi builds at max need 1-2 traitlines ro maximize dmg from traits. And a pure condi build use Illusion/Duelling Mirage, even today. Means in terms of offensive power, condi dmg builds do not need to give anything up when using Mirage or Chrono instead of 3 coretraitlines in terms of dmg. There is no room for discussion.That is also why old condi IH Mirage could go for only one offensive traitline and use Mirage/ Chaos and still had more dmg than a Powermirage with 2 offensive traitlines.

 

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > > > Yeah but GS ambush has a way higher hitrate than staff : not a projectile, canalysed.

> > > > > > A skill who put 3k+ on 1 sec cast time + high animation isn't a problem at all considering the amount of skills who do the same damage with way less tell. Unless you want mesmer to never have pressure output like when they balance scepter 3 to the same level of necro axe 2 then nerf it.

> > > > > > Don't count on weapon skills to condi pressure.

> > > > > > Burst come from shatter, core is about condi burst. Mirage should be about sustain pressure thanks to ambushes IMO.

> > > > > Btw based on above thoughts i also would recommend to add a condi dmg stat penalty (and maybe a power stat penalty but this one lower than the condi stat penalty because of above thoughts) in addition to the vita penalty suggested in consept C.

> > > >

> > > > "Hey guys what if Mirage had less health, and less power damage, and less, condition damage. That's a good idea right."

> > > >

> > > > kitten lol

> > >

> > > -1 dodge

> > > -vitality

> > > -power damage

> > > -condition damage

> > > Perfectly balanced, as all things should be

> >

> > You guys are big brain again. First of all you get +1 dodge that is what the consept d is about. -vita was not my suggestion i just added the dmg penalty to transfer burst shatter dmg to ambush might/vulnstacks, in a way that a Mirage using his 2 dodges also offensive has same dmg then core just not from shatters/ weapons alone (as it is on core) but more from comboing ambushes with shatters and weaponskills. Means the dmg penalty is just a transfer from dmg not a dmg nerf. I explained that good enough and you still don't get it. Kind of sad.

>

> bruh

> 

>

 

I am not sure if this is only a knowledge problem or if it is an iq problem making you miss simple logic and facts or if being over-afraid is just limiting your brainwork.

When you guys could stop being biased and over-afraid that i might want to overnerf your golden horse Condimirage than you maybe could start to talk constructive to me instead always that defensive. I am here for brainstorming not to get flamed for every single idea ppl get over-afraid because they worry that it means they will not be carried enough anymore. When i say the stat penalty should be a dmg transfer and not a dmg nerf by giving condi ambushes more boost potential for the (lower compared to core) base dmg on shatters/weapon skills then i mean it like that and it is nothing that would even nerf any dmg potential from Condimirage. It should just force Condimirage more into offensive dodging to maximise its dmg by comboing shatter and weaponskills with ambushes. The dmg Mirage lose by stat penalty (power and condistats) should be given back to ambushes, so that a Mirage can reach a decent amount of dmg near to core but it is forced to use one of the main mechancis from Mirage for that (ambushes) what also will reach the goal of making Mirage more of a sustain dmg dealer instead pure shatter burst compared to core.

 

I rly don't get why this idea gets so much hate while it doesn't even include any nerf when you look at it while using your brain and think deeper than only

"oh shit stat penalty... must be a nerf from Bravan because we are certain Bravan hates Condimes". Narrowed, rly narrowed.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"bravan.3876"

I am not sure if this is only a knowledge problem or if it is an iq problem making you miss simple logic and facts or if being over-afraid is just limiting your brainwork.

but I dont even read all the walls of bullshit you put on the forms, I simply make jokes about it since its their only worth imo

[bravan.3876]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"bravan.3876"

> I am not sure if this is only a knowledge problem or if it is an iq problem making you miss simple logic and facts or if being over-afraid is just limiting your brainwork.

> but I dont even read all the walls of kitten you put on the forms, I simply make jokes about it since its their only worth imo

 

How unconstructive and narrowed you want to act in a forum is up to you dude. There is no penalty for narrowness in the big internet. Good is, that i don't need your agreement or understanding either and that you are not the one deciding anything. Means hopefully you will never be a kind of person gets hired by any game company. That would be even worse for the game then current Anet devs. I am open for constructive criticism and suggested improvements to my idead when they use facts or at least logical conclusions based on knowledge and/ or facts. What most of you just do when it comes to me is biased and destructive anti-behavior. Ofc that will not convince me from anything. But do what you want to do, i will just ignore you. Play the clown childish boy if you prefer that over a constructive discussion.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"bravan.3876" I have left my thoughts of the matter of mesmer balance, you on the other hand focus on the jokes im making.

if you cant even take a small joke and get all defensive and start biting then I feel bad for you honestly

I just dont have the energy to read through all the stupid things you type all the time, the least you can do is add tldr so nobody has to spend 5min reading through the wall off text that can be summed up by 1 sentence, writing all that doesnt make you look smarter btw.

[viquing.8254]

@"bravan.3876" :

Currently there is one traitline boosting condi damage.

Talking about domination who is used for his utility (boonremove) while duelling is taken for is utility (DE) is bias.

A pure condi domination basically mean you rip resistance which is why it was good just after patch where condi rev resistance were everywhere (it's not anymore the case.) in this environnement of condi rev resistance it was better than other traitline. Like you know, what make something viable or not is the global environnement not only 1 class papercraft.

Last time I met a domination/duelling/illusion power build it was me trolling in ranked. Dunno why you every link something never viable played only by me or quadrox in ranked for the meme. So no, you can't realisticly go this kind of build while performing.

It's not that condi build do not need to take condi damage, actually they really need to, it's that there isn't possiblity to boost more condi pressure.

Old condi IH mirage didn't go for illusion because they does enough damage, it was because they overnerfed shatter output so taking illusion was less efficient than letting clone auto-ing + boosting generation thanks to vigor on chaos and DE on duelling. And yeah you can be horrified to see that synergy on traitline you hate did overall more output but that's how making build work. It's all about micro-synergy and global environnement.

 

> It should just force Condimirage more into offensive dodging to maximise its dmg by comboing shatter and weaponskills with ambushes.

Yeah sure, and during that time while you struggle on your mesmer trying to make a combo with 4 counters to work, you have bob the gard/rev/thief/ele/nec/holo/ranger who push a button and do the same pressure as your high setup combo.

Such an interesting game.

 

 

 

[XenesisII.1540]

/walks in whistling and hangs hat up

/sees discussion on nerfs still

/turns around, grabs hat, and walks back out while snort laughing that anet left the community to fix a class

[Taril.8619]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> Currently there is one traitline boosting condi damage.

 

There's 3 actually.

 

**Dueling** - _Duelists Discipline_ (Bleed on Pistol Phantasms), _Sharper Images_ (Bleed on Illusion crits), _Blinding Dissipation_ (F2 Blinds) and _Ineptitude_ (Blinds also apply 2 stacks of Confusion)

 

**Illusions** - _Cry of Pain _(F2 inflicts 1 more stack of Confusion and its Confusion stacks last 33% longer), _The Pledge_ (Reduced torch skill cooldowns and torch skills apply additional 3s burning), _Compounding Power_ (Creating an illusion grants stacking 2% damage and 30 Condition Damage buff), _Maim the Disillusioned_ (Shatters apply Torment) and _Malicious Sorcery_ (20% increased attack speed with Scepter and 20% reduced Scepter cooldowns)

 

**Chaos** - _Method of Madness_ (Create a Lesser Chaos Storm when using a healing skill), _Chaotic Transference_ (Gain Condition Damage based on Toughness, gain Expertise based on Concentration) and _Chaotic Persistence_ (Outgoing Boon and Condition durations increased for each unique boon on you)

 

Though, Chaos is pretty pants for actual condi damage and seems geared more towards some sort of Apothecary/Plaguedoctor support build.

 

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> /walks in whistling and hangs hat up

> /sees discussion on nerfs still

> /turns around, grabs hat, and walks back out while snort laughing that anet left the community to fix a class

 

Yeah... Seems to be this sub-forum in a nutshell...

 

Instant derails to whine about pointless crap which then end up making up the majority of the overall thread...

 

Then people wonder why ANet doesn't read their forum posts xD

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> @"bravan.3876" :

> Currently there is one traitline boosting condi damage.

> Talking about domination who is used for his utility (boonremove) while duelling is taken for is utility (DE) is bias.

> A pure condi domination basically mean you rip resistance which is why it was good just after patch where condi rev resistance were everywhere (it's not anymore the case.) in this environnement of condi rev resistance it was better than other traitline. Like you know, what make something viable or not is the global environnement not only 1 class papercraft.

> Last time I met a domination/duelling/illusion power build it was me trolling in ranked. Dunno why you every link something never viable played only by me or quadrox in ranked for the meme. So no, you can't realisticly go this kind of build while performing.

> It's not that condi build do not need to take condi damage, actually they really need to, it's that there isn't possiblity to boost more condi pressure.

> Old condi IH mirage didn't go for illusion because they does enough damage, it was because they overnerfed shatter output so taking illusion was less efficient than letting clone auto-ing + boosting generation thanks to vigor on chaos and DE on duelling. And yeah you can be horrified to see that synergy on traitline you hate did overall more output but that's how making build work. It's all about micro-synergy and global environnement.

>

> > It should just force Condimirage more into offensive dodging to maximise its dmg by comboing shatter and weaponskills with ambushes.

> Yeah sure, and during that time while you struggle on your mesmer trying to make a combo with 4 counters to work, you have bob the gard/rev/thief/ele/nec/holo/ranger who push a button and do the same pressure as your high setup combo.

> Such an interesting game.

>

>

>

 

You don't get the point, the point is, there is only 1 at max 2 offensive traitlines (Duelling/ Illusion) where you even find condi dmg related traits. And it doesn't matter if a Domination/ Duelling /Illusion power build is viable for conquest or not. Fact is, for full dmg boost you need all 3 traitlines on power while condi per se doesn't have 3 dmg traitlines available. That is why condi can switch between different utility or sustain lines way easier without giving any dmg up they otherwise could trait for. It is again a mechanical discussion you try to make into a power lvl and what is viable discussion. Learn to stay on the topic. The point is, that condi builds mechancially by traitline design always run with only 1 at max 2 dmg traitlines because they simply don't have more. With other words: Condibuilds have a weaker trade off in terms of dmg when specing into elite traitlines. That makes turning Mirage into something that needs to do different stuff than core to apply the same dmg way harder than on power. That is why i suggested a dmg transfer by stat penalty: The lower base dmg on shatters on weapons compared to core is supposed to be fully compensated by more potent condi ambushes with higher ability to boost back shatters and weaponsskills with offensive dodges. It is not a nerf it is just a transfer to make playing with Mirage specific mechanics more necessary also for Condimirage. The only nerf will be the vita penalty which is directed to replace the nerf to the dodge. And that was not even my idea, it is mortrialus consept.

 

We are here to give Anet alternatives to the nerf they already did, so we give alternative nerfs to replace the one dodge change, which just do not contradict the whole Mirage mechanic. I told you often enough, that just getting 2 dodges back and not giving up anything for it will not happen. Also in this thread it was written pretty clear that Anet wants to nerf mc in its offensive and defensive power. So we have to look for ways to do it without making Condi IH mirage unplayable but ideally add some more skill ceiling to it.

[viquing.8254]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > Currently there is one traitline boosting condi damage.

>

> There's 3 actually.

>

> **Dueling** - _Duelists Discipline_ (Bleed on Pistol Phantasms), _Sharper Images_ (Bleed on Illusion crits), _Blinding Dissipation_ (F2 Blinds) and _Ineptitude_ (Blinds also apply 2 stacks of Confusion)

Duellist discipline and sharped images get destroyed.

Blinding dissipation is 1.5 sec and didn't put damage without ineptitude and ineptitude was already nerfed.

It's not a boost to condi anymore. only a clone generation traitline while playing condi.

> **Chaos** - _Method of Madness_ (Create a Lesser Chaos Storm when using a healing skill), _Chaotic Transference_ (Gain Condition Damage based on Toughness, gain Expertise based on Concentration) and _Chaotic Persistence_ (Outgoing Boon and Condition durations increased for each unique boon on you)

> Though, Chaos is pretty pants for actual condi damage and seems geared more towards some sort of Apothecary/Plaguedoctor support build.

90 sec CD such a high damage boost.

 

No, there is only illusion who realsticly boost condi output currently.

 

 

[viquing.8254]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" :

> > Currently there is one traitline boosting condi damage.

> > Talking about domination who is used for his utility (boonremove) while duelling is taken for is utility (DE) is bias.

> > A pure condi domination basically mean you rip resistance which is why it was good just after patch where condi rev resistance were everywhere (it's not anymore the case.) in this environnement of condi rev resistance it was better than other traitline. Like you know, what make something viable or not is the global environnement not only 1 class papercraft.

> > Last time I met a domination/duelling/illusion power build it was me trolling in ranked. Dunno why you every link something never viable played only by me or quadrox in ranked for the meme. So no, you can't realisticly go this kind of build while performing.

> > It's not that condi build do not need to take condi damage, actually they really need to, it's that there isn't possiblity to boost more condi pressure.

> > Old condi IH mirage didn't go for illusion because they does enough damage, it was because they overnerfed shatter output so taking illusion was less efficient than letting clone auto-ing + boosting generation thanks to vigor on chaos and DE on duelling. And yeah you can be horrified to see that synergy on traitline you hate did overall more output but that's how making build work. It's all about micro-synergy and global environnement.

> >

> > > It should just force Condimirage more into offensive dodging to maximise its dmg by comboing shatter and weaponskills with ambushes.

> > Yeah sure, and during that time while you struggle on your mesmer trying to make a combo with 4 counters to work, you have bob the gard/rev/thief/ele/nec/holo/ranger who push a button and do the same pressure as your high setup combo.

> > Such an interesting game.

> >

> >

> >

>

> You don't get the point, the point is, there is only 1 at max 2 offensive traitlines (Duelling/ Illusion) where you even find condi dmg related traits. And it doesn't matter if a Domination/ Duelling /Illusion power build is viable for conquest or not. Fact is, for full dmg boost you need all 3 traitlines on power while condi per se doesn't have 3 dmg traitlines available. That is why condi can switch between different utility or sustain lines way easier without giving any dmg up they otherwise could trait for. It is again a mechanical discussion you try to make into a power lvl and what is viable discussion. Learn to stay on the topic. The point is, that condi builds mechancially by traitline design always run with only 1 at max 2 dmg traitlines because they simply don't have more. With other words: Condibuilds have a weaker trade off in terms of dmg when specing into elite traitlines. That makes turning Mirage into something that needs to do different stuff than core to apply the same dmg way harder than on power. That is why i suggested a dmg transfer by stat penalty: The lower base dmg on shatters on weapons compared to core is supposed to be fully compensated by more potent condi ambushes with higher ability to boost back shatters and weaponsskills with offensive dodges. It is not a nerf it is just a transfer to make playing with Mirage specific mechanics more necessary also for Condimirage. The only nerf will be the vita penalty which is directed to replace the nerf to the dodge. And that was not even my idea, it is mortrialus consept.

>

> We are here to give Anet alternatives to the nerf they already did, so we give alternative nerfs to replace the one dodge change, which just do not contradict the whole Mirage mechanic. I told you often enough, that just getting 2 dodges back and not giving up anything for it will not happen. Also in this thread it was written pretty clear that Anet wants to nerf mc in its offensive and defensive power. So we have to look for ways to do it without making Condi IH mirage unplayable but ideally add some more skill ceiling to it.

 

Wtf I don't get the point about, what will you choose as condi output apart illusion ?

Of course you give damage when not traiting for damage output, you jsut fail to see there isn't more condi boost out of illusion after they kill duelling. You really think the15 sec setup prepatch condi build didn't drop damage ?? We talk about something who start hurting after 15 sec...

On a side note, there is differents types of condi builds, thoses with burst and thoses with dps. It's normal for thoses with dps to survive enough to do the said dps, you are the only one shoked about this (and I really dislike the meta prepatch.).

 

>The lower base dmg on shatters on weapons compared to core is supposed to be fully compensated by more potent condi ambushes with higher ability to boost back shatters and weaponsskills with offensive dodges.

Which weapon skills ? Which shatter ? You really think 21 sec CD comboed shatter or obvious confusing images (=axe3) because theses are the only realistic on demand active output who can be used after an ambush will be enough ??

Me no, not regarding what is running currently in the meta.

Even with 2 dodge back, considering the global condi output nerf (duelling kill.), the suppression of condi duration amulet, and the fact that mesmer, even with 2 dodges prepatch wasn't in a good position, I'm not even sure it will be viable on the condi side (while power will ofc get a buff.).