[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[viquing.8254]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"Jazz.4639" :

> >

> > Good job.

> >

> > Slight more precision about Concept B :

> > Refill can be on shatter, or by amno, I didn't really care about this. (Probably better by amno as it didn't need to maximise vigor by stuff/traits.).

> > The F5 button when the bar is full pop a mirror on the mirage = activating mc and ambushes. I didn't unlink ambushes from mc, I unlink mc from evade.

>

> thx <3

>

> oh i missunderstood you then, haha kinda sad bc i rly liked the idea to link the refill with dodges, esp bc you can buff it with vigor and bc you then still have some active impact on the refill rate. but i guess i will just claim it as my suggestion then hehe. so you are same opinion as bravan to make an ammo skill with independent refill rate from dodges. and you want to add another mirror generation on f5, do i get that right? if yes i will edit that into the consept later (but lets think about it for short, you try to create a reward for not using ambushes before the refill of both charges is fully done? im not sure if that isnt contra-productive a little bit, we want ambush uses at times it makes sense to counter enemies moves in a fight, trying to create a pressure into not using ambushes until the 2 charges are fully refilled feels a bit strange to me).

>

 

Hmm, it can also be on illusion shattered. Mean it would probably be an idea to untie mirage a little with vigor/evade maximisation.

Btw the main idea is to untie mc and normal dodge, I don't really bother that much about what can fill the bar.

 

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > @"Koen.1327" said:

> > save the rework and keep 50 endurance but make ambush skills stronger

>

> right TBH it seems like a decent option. Its gimy as kitten but so are all of these changes. May as well just make 50% endurace in all modes and make ambushes not suck and replace IH with a trait that boosts weapon damage or shatter damage. Simple to do and would actually work.

 

I would also be fine with this - main thing is consistency between pve/pvp/wvw.

 

An analogy would be eg if they had removed IP/self shatter from Chrono in pvp/wvw only, but left it in pve - not consistent.

 

For a different angle on possible changes, going for longer but less chainable evade frames, the following list could be a possibility. There are some weird ideas below, but bear with me:

.

* Mirage gets 50 endurance across all game modes.

* Mirage Cloak duration increased to 1 second from all sources (Superspeed duration from Speed of Sand also increased to 1 second, and merged with baseline Mirage Cloak function).

* _Infinite Horizon_ moved to Grandmaster Minor (most ambush damage moved from clones to player, so clones provide mostly visual distraction and utility (eg boons) but player ambush deals the real damage. Numbers suitably adjusted for different game modes).

.

* Shatter skills each grant a unique temporary buff when used (similar to Riddle of Sand functionality, or various sigils eg - Leeching, Doom, etc. Can think of suitable names for each buff icon on the effects bar).

* If more than one Shatter buff is active (eg using F1 and F2 back to back) before using the next ambush, the next ambush will inherit all active buff effects. So potentially you could stack the effects of F1/2/3 into a single ambush.

.

* **F1 changed to:** "Shatter your clones dealing damage (50% of eg Core F1). Your next ambush attack deals increased damage (the other 50% added as a buff to subsequent player ambush).

* **F2 changed to:** "Shatter your clones and apply Confusion (2s). Your next ambush attack applies Confusion (2 stacks, 4s).

* _Riddle of Sand_ (trait) deleted.

* Sword and Trident Ambush Daze/Stun removed (appropriate further damage/utility compensation needed).

* Sword Ambush changed to "Blink" toward a target, or 600 units in the direction the player is facing (like Spear Ambush). Still a leap finisher.

* Spear Ambush also allowed to be used without a target, 600 units in the direction the player is swimming.

* **F3 changed to:** "Shatter your clones applying Daze (1/2s) per clone. Your next ambush attack applies Daze (1s).

* **F4 changed to:** "Gain Mirage Cloak (1s) and Shatter your clones to become Mirage Mirrors. For the next 5 seconds, breaking Mirage Mirrors heals you (1k heal per Mirror)"

* _Desert Distortion_ (trait) deleted.

 

**Traits:**

**Minors:**

* Adept - _Mirage Cloak_ (with Speed of Sand built in)

* Master - _Nomad's Endurance_ - Gain Vigour (1.5s) when you use a Shatter skill. ["Cleanse a condition (1) when you spend Endurance (50)" **Edit** - I only put this here because not sure where else to put it, or maybe it could simply be removed given the new nature of both Mirage Mantle and Elusive Mind.]

* Grandmaster - _Infinite Horizon_ - as is.

 

**Top Line (Utility):**

* Adept - _Self Deception_ - as is.

* Master - _New trait - "Refraction"_ - Mirage Mirrors also grant Swiftness (4s) to nearby allies and Cripple (4s) to nearby enemies (5 cap) when broken.

* Grandmaster - _New trait_ - The buff gained from Shatters has improved effects. This trait is unique per Shatter. F1: +15% direct damage on follow up ambush. F2: +3 stacks Confusion (4s) on follow up ambush. F3: +1s Daze duration on follow up ambush. F4: +500 healing on breaking a Mirage Mirror.

 

**Middle Line (Defensive):**

* Adept - _Renewing Oasis_ - as is.

* Master - _Mirage Mantle_ - gain Protection when Mirage Cloak ends (2s). Reduce duration of Control Effects while Protection is active (-20% duration).

* Grandmaster - Elusive Mind - gain Vigour when you gain Mirage Cloak (1.5s). Reduce duration of Movement Impairing Conditions while Vigour is active (-20% duration).

 

**Bottom Line (Offensive):**

* Adept - _New trait_ - Successfully hitting an enemy with an ambush attack grants Might (2 stacks, 5 seconds).

* Master - _Mirrored Axes_ - as is.

* Grandmaster - _Dune Cloak_ - changed back to apply Bleeding after Mirage Cloak ends, and Bleeding increases duration of active conditions.

 

**Skills:**

* _Jaunt_ - reduced Charge cooldown to 20s. Spawns a Mirage Mirror at the initial location (can be used on the spot to instantly break the Mirror for Mirage Cloak).

* _Mirage Advance_ - also leaves a Mirage Mirror at the initial location.

* _Sand through Glass_ - also removes Immobilise (so the Mirror isn't instantly broken, losing out on an entire evade frame).

 

------------

Reasoning: Given Riddle of Sand already existing in the game, it made most sense to me that this function could be built in and extended across all shatters, with specific effects on each shatter. F4 being the odd one out in that it should not necessitate a follow up ambush for some kind of benefit - so I thought that also with wanting to make Mirage Mirrors a little more accessible for all builds, that it would have best synergy gaining heal on breaking Mirrors for a limited duration. Here it is important to note that all Mirage builds would be able to spawn Mirage Mirrors through F4, and with the skill changes, all Deception skills would spawn Mirage Mirrors - so the changes to F4, and the new Top Line Master Major trait would make more sense.

 

Due to leaving endurance at 50, and the removal of Invuln entirely on F4, it made sense to me that Mirage Cloak would make more sense back at 1 second - as it is effectively functioning as Core Mesmer F4 without clones in terms of duration, or also being in line with Blurred Inscriptions Invuln duration. Yes Evade is not Invuln, but the nature of Mirage Cloak being useable at any time thematically and in terms of gameplay makes it function more in this way.

The overall point being, longer evade effect but less evade (or invuln) chainability as there is no more access to eg 4 second F4, or double dodge back to back.

 

After changing Elusive Mind to something that appears more thematic both with the spec and the middle line of traits, at first was thinking to remove the "remove a condition on dodge" feature, to be a main weakness for the spec - as with this centre line of traits it would have some condition duration reduction if built for. But decided to put it on Nomad's Endurance in place of the "Vigour gives 150 condi damage", which because occuring only when spending endurance (not from other sources of Mirage Cloak) I don't believe it would be too strong given endurance limitation - eg it wouldn't trigger off Mirrors. It would be a kind of light sustain backbone for the spec as a Minor. But if it is problematic, it could be moved elsewhere or removed.

 

Changing Dune Cloak back to a damaging ability rather than boon removal/stealing. That should be more a Core mesmer thing, or even the next elite spec. But I feel that Mirage should just focus on evasive skirmishing and sustained damage, rather than these kind of control features.

The new offensive adept trait is meant to be as a kind of replacement for 150 condi damage on Vigour previously on Nomad's Endurance. The idea here also being unbiased towards condi or power by simply giving Might, but also rewarding landing ambush attacks.

 

Regarding Sword Ambush - only reason to change to Blink was to make up somewhat for removal of Daze, so at least some compensation of having eg clones blink on the target like Axe 3 clones do. But downside is eg not being able to leap through Mirage Mirrors which would be more prevalent with the above changes, so perhaps it would be better off just left as a physical leap.

 

**The above could all potentially also work with 0.75s Mirage Cloak duration and 2 dodges (100 endurance) anyway.** I'm fairly indifferent to this, so do bear that in mind, before anyone goes for the jugular. xD

[viquing.8254]

On a side note, we have to take care to not making mirage only a super-core mesmer.

Always in concept B situation, In the case of untie evade to mc : the mirage gain new ability. If the gain is too important, it's not imposible to think about stats reduction or other counterpart already given. To not make it a core with more CC/options/survival options instead of just having new mechanics.

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> On a side note, we have to take care to not making mirage only a super-core mesmer.

> Always in concept B situation, In the case of untie evade to mc : the mirage gain new ability. If the gain is too important, it's not imposible to think about stats reduction or other counterpart already given. To not make it a core with more CC/options/survival options instead of just having new mechanics.

>

 

core is even worse then mirage, so they either keep it bad, and buff mirage to be good, or buff core and implement trade offs for mirage.

core right now is shit at dueling and has horrible mobility, so by default no matter what you have to give up to go mirage, its going to be better due to mobility alone.

remove shit like IH, dodge while stunned and buff core fix bugs and we guchi

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

I really think this whole thing is a waste of time.... based off the last patch, this wasn't CMC. I doubt ANet will do anything about Mirage and just use resources to make the next elite spec for expansion 3. Chrono and Mirage are dead, wait for the EXP3 and play a different class in the mean time...

[Taril.8619]

> @"MrAmputatoes.6031" said:

> Chrono and Mirage are dead, wait for the EXP3 and play a different class in the mean time...

 

Then play it for 2 weeks until people cry nerf and ANet murder that too...

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"MrAmputatoes.6031" said:

> > Chrono and Mirage are dead, wait for the EXP3 and play a different class in the mean time...

>

> Then play it for 2 weeks until people cry nerf and ANet murder that too...

 

yep also usually they give us around 2 years and then murder... it will rly be a hard decision if its worth buying the next expansion as a mesmer player. but we will see.

 

@"Curunen.8729" i will add yours to the final document. i like that you keep instant core shatters available but in a weaker form and then add mirage specific dmg boni on top of it. lit the same they did with chrono mw.

 

 

> @"viquing.8254" said:

 

> Always in concept B situation, In the case of untie evade to mc : the mirage gain new ability.

>

what new ability you mean? the new f5 button (or did i miss something?)? it is not rly a new ability, it just a switch from the ambush mechanic from dodge button to another button. ofc that means mirage can time ambushes now more independently from dodges on the other side the mechanic becomes more active, mesmers ambushes do not get autocovered by dodge for around 3/4 of their cast duration anymore, you cannot dodge while being stunned etc. i think it compensates each other quite well while mcs balance issues get solved.

 

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> @"Curunen.8729" i will add yours to the final document. i like that you keep instant core shatters available but in a weaker form and then add mirage specific dmg boni on top of it. lit the same they did with chrono mw.

Thanks - for the record I'm not fully agreeing with what I wrote anyway, in terms of some frankly strange ideas - however this being a group discussion feel that some of the concepts can help to mould and shape any final outcomes, so worth throwing out there to continue the progress.

 

Main thing is for Shatters - I think that because Riddle of Sand already exists in the game, it may likely be the simplest option to tweak all Shatters in this way with the unique buff.

[viquing.8254]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> what new ability you mean? the new f5 button (or did i miss something?)? it is not rly a new ability, it just a switch from the ambush mechanic from dodge button to another button. ofc that means mirage can time ambushes now more independently from dodges on the other side the mechanic becomes more active, mesmers ambushes do not get autocovered by dodge for around 3/4 of their cast duration anymore, you cannot dodge while being stunned etc. i think it compensates each other quite well while mcs balance issues get solved.

 

That's it, F5 mean you have your usual evade + a miror thanks to F5. Now if mirror don't give an evade frame like you suggested it's not a problem.

 

 

[Yoci.2481]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > On a side note, we have to take care to not making mirage only a super-core mesmer.

> > Always in concept B situation, In the case of untie evade to mc : the mirage gain new ability. If the gain is too important, it's not imposible to think about stats reduction or other counterpart already given. To not make it a core with more CC/options/survival options instead of just having new mechanics.

> >

>

> core is even worse then mirage, so they either keep it bad, and buff mirage to be good, or buff core and implement trade offs for mirage.

> core right now is kitten at dueling and has horrible mobility, so by default no matter what you have to give up to go mirage, its going to be better due to mobility alone.

> remove kitten like IH, dodge while stunned and buff core fix bugs and we guchi

 

Yes, this.

[mortrialus.3062]

Whatever trade off happens it needs to be designed in a way that actually accentuates aspects of core mesmer into more potent forms with clear niches with trade offs that open up weaknesses that don't run completely counter to what the elite spec is strong at.

 

Necromancer is one of the best designed in the game in terms of giving the elites reasons to be run while core has a clear niche as well.

 

Core: Extremely tanky shroud, long range.

Weakness mediocre damage.

 

Reaper: Extremely high cleave damage. Weakness: faster degeneration melee only.

 

Scourge: High AOE condition and corruption, can cast profession skills without entering a shroud. Weakness: Significantly lower durability than core necro, shade attacks have no auto attack style consistent pressure, shade skills have a clearer pattern of attack than core shroud that's easier to avoid.

 

Whatever happens to mesmer, mirage, and chrono needs to focus on making each very strong in ways the others aren't and with clear niches with weaknesses that open up counter play without running completely counter to what the spec is supposed to be strong at.

 

Not asking for god mode or for mesmer to reign supreme over all other classes. Hence why I think it's so important for elite specs to have very specific visions, scopes, and niches. We want to avoid "It only does Everything" style elite specs like Holosmith going forward, which might actually be the worst designed elite in the game right now in terms of being straight up Core+ in every regard even though it has a "trade off".

[Taril.8619]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Whatever trade off happens it needs to be designed in a way that actually accentuates aspects of core mesmer into more potent forms with clear niches with trade offs that open up weaknesses that don't run completely counter to what the elite spec is strong at.

> Whatever happens to mesmer, mirage, and chrono needs to focus on making each very strong in ways the others aren't and with clear niches with weaknesses that open up counter play without running completely counter to what the spec is supposed to be strong at.

 

I think one of the main problems to be faced in this regard, is the nature of how incredibly focused the entire profession is on shatter gameplay.

 

It leads to a situation where all 3 classes are focused around shatters, so they end up doing very similar things, because that's what the profession and consequently the core specializations are about.

 

The only notable changes to gameplay are basically just Chrono's slight lean towards Phantasms with the Chronophantasma trait and that's about it, but even that is optional since it's just a GM trait which has also been nerfed repeatedly... (Also Chrono's access to Alacrity/Quickness, but that's been left in the dust since PoF and the release of Firebrigade which does it better and easier)

 

I suppose in theory, you can give Mirage and Chrono unique and objectively worse shatters, leading to core Mesmer being king of the shattergun playstyle where you blow stuff up with high power shatters. With Chrono instead getting Chronophantasma (Baseline) and Phantom affinity as their source of damage output and Mirage leaning more on their unique Ambushes for their damage output, possibly with also Infinite Horizon (Baseline) to put some focus on active Clones.

 

Leading to Core Mesmer = meh clones/phantasms + good shatters. Chrono = meh clones/shatters + good phantasms. Mirage = meh phantasms/shatters + good clones.

 

Of course, this runs into a problem with a potential 3rd E-Spec since if we use the above categorizations we've ran out of aspects of Mesmer to utilize unless such an E-Spec brings a new mechanic (Like Ambush) with which it can lean on.

[Leonidrex.5649]

I just wanna say that the longer the game goes one the more and more ways for clones and phantasms to fuck over both mesmer and their team.

From warriors getting eundurance,heals and adrenaline.

Scrappers generation crap ton of barrier, necros to gaining shit ton of lifeforce and most skills generally just being bounce fodder It might be time to stop clones/phantasms fromg enerating resources from the enemies.

If scrapper gets 700+ barrier for every target they controll, and they throw aoe at me and my 2 clones and 2 phantasm he generates so much barrier that it cant be contesnted, and it doesnt even include the damage->barrier conversions.

Necro gains full shroud every 9s. etc etc

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

 

> Leading to Core Mesmer = meh clones/phantasms + good shatters. Chrono = meh clones/shatters + good phantasms. Mirage = meh phantasms/shatters + good clones.

jep i think that makes sense too and they kinda started it with chrono mw rework back then. lower core shatter dmg but replaced with some elite mechanic based bonus dmg. chrono applying slow before shatter (or in your pov more shatter dmg when a phantasm is up just as example how to link shatters also to phantasms) and mirage weaker core shatters + dmg bonus for x secs on shatter after using an ambush or whatever. the options are endless in how to combine weaker core shatter effects with elite based boni.

 

 

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" i will add yours to the final document. i like that you keep instant core shatters available but in a weaker form and then add mirage specific dmg boni on top of it. lit the same they did with chrono mw.

> Thanks - for the record I'm not fully agreeing with what I wrote anyway, in terms of some frankly strange ideas - however this being a group discussion feel that some of the concepts can help to mould and shape any final outcomes, so worth throwing out there to continue the progress.

 

yes dont worry, even when some consepts still have little flaws it is then up to anet to solves them. we are already giving very concrete ideas they can build on, they cannot expect us to make it perfect since no one of us does it professionally.

 

> @"viquing.8254" said:

 

> That's it, F5 mean you have your usual evade + a miror thanks to F5. Now if mirror don't give an evade frame like you suggested it's not a problem.

ah yes i forgot about your mirror on full f5 charges proc. so you want me to add it to the consept b? atm it is still missing

 

[viquing.8254]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> ah yes i forgot about your mirror on full f5 charges proc. so you want me to add it to the consept b? atm it is still missing

If you want to untie mc and ambushes yes please.

Again I'm for untying mc from dodge proc, not for separate mc and ambushes.

 

 

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > ah yes i forgot about your mirror on full f5 charges proc. so you want me to add it to the consept b? atm it is still missing

> If you want to untie mc and ambushes yes please.

> Again I'm for untying mc from dodge proc, not for separate mc and ambushes.

>

>

 

ah no sry ofc mesmer itself (just as ih clones) will still get ambushes on mirrors, we only untie the ambush activation from the endurance dodges, while mirrors still give old mc incl ambush access.

that should be possible even when we say the endurance of mirage stays with 50% (or 75%) and it stays an mc dodge. then the ammo just needs to refill half as fast as if we make the endurance dodge a normal dodge (bc then the one endurance dodge will give one ambush already and the ammo will only compensate for the lost second ambush activation from the one dodge nerf).

maybe it is even possible to to make 2 kinds of mc, one with no ambush activation on endurance bar and a mirror-mc with ambush activation (that prob is even possible bc that doesnt influence the nature of instant skills). thats up to anet to decide which way to choose here.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Mirrors are trash.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Mirrors are trash.

 

Not when you look as good as me~

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > Mirrors are trash.

>

> Not when you look as good as me~

 

Well done.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > Mirrors are trash.

>

> Not when you look as good as me~

 

made my day :lol:

 

guys can we get some more ideas for the sub-concept? how to rework traits in mirage to make ih baseline? we have some included in concept D suggestions but they also need to include the shatter rework to make sense. these ideas cannot rly be included in other consepts (A to F) bc they are linked to an own concept including a total elite/shatter overwork not just some trait changes. for the sub-concept itself i had more general ways in mind only include rework/switch of traits without changing the whole shatter and mirage mechanic. something that then can be included (or not) as a SUB!-concept into one of the other concepts A-F.

 

for example:

 

first i was thinking about switching mirage mantle to ih place, ih on current normads endurance and normad endurance into current place of mirage mantle. but i didnt like like my idea mostly bc you always have the problem, that mirage than suddently have 2 gm traits at same time, like having ih and em or dune cloak would be too strong. means you either change all 3 gm traits then (and for that i couldnt find a lot of concrete suggstions in this thread until now) or we need to replace ih with a trait/ traits that will buff ambushes (mostly from the mesmer itself not from clones) and mirages who will choose em or dune cloak over that new ambush-buff-trait will have remarkable less strong own ambushes and weaker clone ambushes, to compensate for the fact that they now have ih together with em.

 

sooo when we just unite ih with one of the current minors and reduce basic (untraited) ambush dmg from mesmers/clones compared to current state (while still keeping the idea that ih clones should not have big dmg by their own, that the mesmers own ambushes are the ones with the main dmg part)

 

we could for ex. then make 3 gm traits like that:

 

1. rdm traitname: your ambushes do x% more power dmg (exact numbers up to anet to reach a balanced lvl based on 2 endurance dodges),

since clones have non or very small amount of basic dmg this would mostly buff mesmers own ambushes

2. rdm traitname: your ambushes get x more stacks/ double the stacks of the dmg-condition they apply and/or dmg-conditions have x secs longer condi duration

(exact numbers up to anet to reach a balanced lvl based on 2 endurance dodges), should also mostly buff mesmers own ambushes not clones

3. can be either

a). an utility trait

- dune cloak (but a little bit improved): unblockable and with steal boonremove prio, so we can work with it better

(for exaple strip stabi to interrupt rezz signet, only thief and rev can trait into that even tho mesmer should be the king of boonremove

which is not just rdm. and on a melee trait only for mirage it would not be op as if would be op for shatters or domi ve trait to have steal

boon remove prio). for that clear buff we can limit dune cloak to 3 (or even less) targets instead 5 and maybe reduce the dmg from it. Or

 

b). a sustain trait

- em: removing one condition per dodge or

only remove movement impairing conditions + small heal

(all based on having 2 endurance dodges back ofc)

 

i dunno... what you guys think about that? and what different ideas do you have?

 

[viquing.8254]

In the case of B concept, it can be something around the ambushe's fill bar. Like F1 (or any other mechanics.) give slight refill.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

Hello Mesmers

 

In short, I returned to GW2 after a 4 year break recently and decided to give Mesmer a try. As the Mirage eSpec mechanics were a bit confusing for me, I opted for a Chrono build and have been super happy with it over the past 3 months. However, with the recent patch it made my Chrono build a little clunky with the changes to shatters, so I came to these forums looking for some community help since I couldn't find any updated builds on the common sites.

 

1 - I generally avoid forums due to the toxic nature of hearing people complain about the class you like. However, after seeing what I expected, I went to other forums and, wow, okay so a lot of people peg Mesmer as not awesome to play. I don't really care about how good or bad the class is, more so, is it enjoyable to play the rotation, and does the rotation keep you engaged in the game.

 

2 - I appreciate that someone, anyone, is doing what this thread is, by trying to create a conduit from player to dev about the concerns of this class. I will say it seems odd to me that such a thing exists, most games I have played (and the game dev teams I have worked with) don't generally have such public conduit, instead having closed groups of players in game (such as a guild or clan) to bounce feedback off of.

 

3 - I am going to ignore numbers for my thoughts below. When you develop a good playstyle you can tweak the numbers to balance after the fact.

 

Reviewing the Mirage package, it seems that the intent was for Mirage Cloak to replace Dodge while giving access to Ambush abilities, and Deception was included to increase mobility to make up for the lost Dodge.

 

Looking only at the concerns around the Dodge portion of Mirage Cloak:

If MC did not affect Dodge in any way, what could be used to trigger it? Weapon Skills, Shatters, Utility/Heal/Elite Skills, Runes and Sigils

 

Weapon Skills: Currently there are Clone and Phantasm skills baked into each weapon for the Mesmer. Would it make sense to have a unique Mirage skill that causes MC on each weapon? I don't feel this is likely, but there is a lot of room to develop MC into Weapon Skills via Mirage Traits

 

Shatters: Having MC pop off Shatters may seem counterintuitive given Ambush but, let's leave Ambush and IH alone for the moment. There is a lot of design space with Shatters (similar to most F1-F5 skills). For example, what if Shatter with Mirage gave you MC + Utility?

 

Examples:

"Gain Mirage Cloak, extend MC per clone, all clones use Ambush with current weapon"

"Gain Mirage Cloak, extend MC per clone, all clones swap to your current target"

"Gain Mirage Cloak and Daze your target, extend MC and Daze per clone"

 

I really like this design space as it is available regardless of the Weapon or Utility choices you make.

 

Utility Skills:

Looking at Deception, one could take away the mobility Skills and replace them with MC based skills with slightly different flavors. Really similar to the Shatters honestly, it ends up being a button you push, but Utilities are optional and Shatters are there.

 

Runes and Sigils

I include this here but, having a Rune or Sigil requirement seems way off base for a class defining ability.

 

Ambush, Clones and Infinite Horizon

I get the idea of Ambush skills, the concept has been used with other classes (perform an ability, gain access to a different weapon skill), but should this extend to our clones? You may have noticed I used an example Shatter with Ambush as part of it, and I think this is a possible direction for the Ambush question. Removing IH and having a Skill or Shatter pop Ambush for Clones would allow a better opportunity for balance.

 

Yay we made it to the almost end? I guess the TL;DR

 

1 - I don't know much, but I like to have fun and don't care about the numbers, just the playability

2 - Delinking MC from Dodge and adding them to Shatters or Deception Skills (but removing the Deception mobility traits to balance) would be the direction I would start down

3 - Ambush for Clones should be a Shatter or Deception Skill, not linked to a trait, get rid of Infinite Horizon

 

I do really like the design space for Shatters for MC and Ambush since it is always there for the Mirage, but there is way more space in Deception Skills to do some really fun things for both. You could even go a step further and have 1 Axe skill, 1 Shatter and 1-2 Deception skills offer MC to spread it around a bit

 

And for giggles a tangential thought:

 

While reviewing the Mirage I kept thinking "Why does Mirage Shatter and pop Clones?" At some point, and it is likely to far along for Mirage, but I want to see a clones matter eSpec where shatters don't pop the clones.

[dandamanno.4136]

> @"Mungo Zen.9364" said:

> Hello Mesmers

>

> In short, I returned to GW2 after a 4 year break recently and decided to give Mesmer a try. As the Mirage eSpec mechanics were a bit confusing for me, I opted for a Chrono build and have been super happy with it over the past 3 months. However, with the recent patch it made my Chrono build a little clunky with the changes to shatters, so I came to these forums looking for some community help since I couldn't find any updated builds on the common sites.

>

> 1 - I generally avoid forums due to the toxic nature of hearing people complain about the class you like. However, after seeing what I expected, I went to other forums and, wow, okay so a lot of people peg Mesmer as not awesome to play. I don't really care about how good or bad the class is, more so, is it enjoyable to play the rotation, and does the rotation keep you engaged in the game.

>

> 2 - I appreciate that someone, anyone, is doing what this thread is, by trying to create a conduit from player to dev about the concerns of this class. I will say it seems odd to me that such a thing exists, most games I have played (and the game dev teams I have worked with) don't generally have such public conduit, instead having closed groups of players in game (such as a guild or clan) to bounce feedback off of.

>

> 3 - I am going to ignore numbers for my thoughts below. When you develop a good playstyle you can tweak the numbers to balance after the fact.

>

> Reviewing the Mirage package, it seems that the intent was for Mirage Cloak to replace Dodge while giving access to Ambush abilities, and Deception was included to increase mobility to make up for the lost Dodge.

>

> Looking only at the concerns around the Dodge portion of Mirage Cloak:

> If MC did not affect Dodge in any way, what could be used to trigger it? Weapon Skills, Shatters, Utility/Heal/Elite Skills, Runes and Sigils

>

> Weapon Skills: Currently there are Clone and Phantasm skills baked into each weapon for the Mesmer. Would it make sense to have a unique Mirage skill that causes MC on each weapon? I don't feel this is likely, but there is a lot of room to develop MC into Weapon Skills via Mirage Traits

>

> Shatters: Having MC pop off Shatters may seem counterintuitive given Ambush but, let's leave Ambush and IH alone for the moment. There is a lot of design space with Shatters (similar to most F1-F5 skills). For example, what if Shatter with Mirage gave you MC + Utility?

>

> Examples:

> "Gain Mirage Cloak, extend MC per clone, all clones use Ambush with current weapon"

> "Gain Mirage Cloak, extend MC per clone, all clones swap to your current target"

> "Gain Mirage Cloak and Daze your target, extend MC and Daze per clone"

>

> I really like this design space as it is available regardless of the Weapon or Utility choices you make.

>

> Utility Skills:

> Looking at Deception, one could take away the mobility Skills and replace them with MC based skills with slightly different flavors. Really similar to the Shatters honestly, it ends up being a button you push, but Utilities are optional and Shatters are there.

>

> Runes and Sigils

> I include this here but, having a Rune or Sigil requirement seems way off base for a class defining ability.

>

> Ambush, Clones and Infinite Horizon

> I get the idea of Ambush skills, the concept has been used with other classes (perform an ability, gain access to a different weapon skill), but should this extend to our clones? You may have noticed I used an example Shatter with Ambush as part of it, and I think this is a possible direction for the Ambush question. Removing IH and having a Skill or Shatter pop Ambush for Clones would allow a better opportunity for balance.

>

> Yay we made it to the almost end? I guess the TL;DR

>

> 1 - I don't know much, but I like to have fun and don't care about the numbers, just the playability

> 2 - Delinking MC from Dodge and adding them to Shatters or Deception Skills (but removing the Deception mobility traits to balance) would be the direction I would start down

> 3 - Ambush for Clones should be a Shatter or Deception Skill, not linked to a trait, get rid of Infinite Horizon

>

> I do really like the design space for Shatters for MC and Ambush since it is always there for the Mirage, but there is way more space in Deception Skills to do some really fun things for both. You could even go a step further and have 1 Axe skill, 1 Shatter and 1-2 Deception skills offer MC to spread it around a bit

>

> And for giggles a tangential thought:

>

> While reviewing the Mirage I kept thinking "Why does Mirage Shatter and pop Clones?" At some point, and it is likely to far along for Mirage, but I want to see a clones matter eSpec where shatters don't pop the clones.

 

I like the idea of having MC tied to shatters, ripped from dodge completely. Mind Wrack would become the Ambush trigger, while the others can have utility. It allows for unique shatters for mirage, with the ability to tweak CD's, strengths and effects on a per shatter basis. I assume in your example shatters would no longer use up clones? Or how do you envision MW working, clones ambush, then shatter? What do you think about 1/4 s MC per clone, Mesmer included from IP?

 

I think mirrors would need to go, as having 4 MC's (1 per shatter), 2 dodges and mirrors all available would be too much. But I don't think anyone would miss those. I would take on demand MC from a shatter over chasing down a mirror any day. Also, shatters may have to share a 3 second CD to avoid having 4 seconds of MC all at once (unless clones are used up by shatter, then no CD needed).

 

>However, with the recent patch it made my Chrono build a little clunky with the changes to shatters,

 

You find it clunky after the IP change? O.o

[Mungo Zen.9364]

> @"dandamanno.4136" said:

>

> I like the idea of having MC tied to shatters, ripped from dodge completely. Mind Wrack would become the Ambush trigger, while the others can have utility. It allows for unique shatters for mirage, with the ability to tweak CD's, strengths and effects on a per shatter basis. I assume in your example shatters would no longer use up clones? Or how do you envision MW working, clones ambush, then shatter? What do you think about 1/4 s MC per clone, Mesmer included from IP?

>

> I think mirrors would need to go, as having 4 MC's (1 per shatter), 2 dodges and mirrors all available would be too much. But I don't think anyone would miss those. I would take on demand MC from a shatter over chasing down a mirror any day. Also, shatters may have to share a 3 second CD to avoid having 4 seconds of MC all at once (unless clones are used up by shatter, then no CD needed).

>

 

Reflecting on this yesterday, thinking of what values I would tweak, a few ideas kept coming up:

 

1 - Limit Mirage to 1 Dodge, but it costs 75-100 Energy, making it available less often. Mirage Cloak does give a defensive advantage which should be leaned into, but having the native mobility of Dodge still available would be a good thing.

 

2 - Giving MC to Illusions in any capacity could be done for purely defensive purposes. This enters the discussion of 'how much DPS/Utility should Mesmer/Mirage gain from Illusions?'. Keeping Illusions alive longer would be a good thing for the Mesmer, but not at the cost of overall DPS/Utility/Survivability.

 

A tangent though, when I look at the Mirage and think 'how does Mirage use Illusions differently than other Mesmers?', I see there are skills that redirect the Clones to a new target that the rest of the prof doesn't have. So perhaps maintaining the focus of 'redirecting clones' is enough, but adding a trait to give them added defense/uptime (perhaps via MC) to keep them around long enough to retarget to multiple targets might be of interest.

 

3 - Mirrors.... I like them in general, and think they should stay. Where I get confused is why Distortion (not the Shatter but the effect) and MC both exist. Delink Distortion from Mirrors and create a new Mirage exclusive association. For example, rework F4 to "New Not Distortion Shatter" Shatter your Illusions to create a Mirage Mirror at your target.

 

4 - To pop clones or not..... I think Mirage should continue down the clone popping path but at some point, the space should be explored for a new eSpec in a future expansion (Hello Cantha).

 

But to the idea of Ambush and Shatter skills, let's make a simple Shatter to get it going:

Mirage Mind Wrack

You gain Mirage Cloak, you and your Clones Ambush with current weapon, then destroy all your clones, damaging nearby foes. The shatter effect also occurs at your location.

The variables to tweak are; timing between Ambush and Pop, Damage of Ambush and Pop, Damage per Clone, CD, number of foes damaged by Pop

 

The shorter the CD, the more often you get to use it, the less powerful it should be (and stronger on a longer CD), but hopefully the idea presents itself well enough.

 

 

 

> >However, with the recent patch it made my Chrono build a little clunky with the changes to shatters,

>

> You find it clunky after the IP change? O.o

 

Flow of Time (~10-12% Nerf) and Rewinder (5 second Nerf) are where I feel it the most. The Flow of Time thing is a very subtle slow down in Chrono button mashing overall really, and my rotation has now changed in different situations as some skills are not coming up as fast as they were before. The Rewinder change means I am less able to dump my clones on demand. Previously my play pattern included popping Signet of Ether to get more Phantasms going out, but that has changed to popping Signet of Illusions to reset the Shatters and keep the Clones rolling.

 

So yeah, clunky given what I know of playing this class, which pushed me to investigate Mirage, and well, here we are....

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Mungo Zen.9364" said:

> > @"dandamanno.4136" said:

> >

> > I like the idea of having MC tied to shatters, ripped from dodge completely. Mind Wrack would become the Ambush trigger, while the others can have utility. It allows for unique shatters for mirage, with the ability to tweak CD's, strengths and effects on a per shatter basis. I assume in your example shatters would no longer use up clones? Or how do you envision MW working, clones ambush, then shatter? What do you think about 1/4 s MC per clone, Mesmer included from IP?

> >

> > I think mirrors would need to go, as having 4 MC's (1 per shatter), 2 dodges and mirrors all available would be too much. But I don't think anyone would miss those. I would take on demand MC from a shatter over chasing down a mirror any day. Also, shatters may have to share a 3 second CD to avoid having 4 seconds of MC all at once (unless clones are used up by shatter, then no CD needed).

> >

>

> Reflecting on this yesterday, thinking of what values I would tweak, a few ideas kept coming up:

>

> 1 - Limit Mirage to 1 Dodge, but it costs 75-100 Energy, making it available less often. Mirage Cloak does give a defensive advantage which should be leaned into, but having the native mobility of Dodge still available would be a good thing.

>

> 2 - Giving MC to Illusions in any capacity could be done for purely defensive purposes. This enters the discussion of 'how much DPS/Utility should Mesmer/Mirage gain from Illusions?'. Keeping Illusions alive longer would be a good thing for the Mesmer, but not at the cost of overall DPS/Utility/Survivability.

>

> A tangent though, when I look at the Mirage and think 'how does Mirage use Illusions differently than other Mesmers?', I see there are skills that redirect the Clones to a new target that the rest of the prof doesn't have. So perhaps maintaining the focus of 'redirecting clones' is enough, but adding a trait to give them added defense/uptime (perhaps via MC) to keep them around long enough to retarget to multiple targets might be of interest.

>

> 3 - Mirrors.... I like them in general, and think they should stay. Where I get confused is why Distortion (not the Shatter but the effect) and MC both exist. Delink Distortion from Mirrors and create a new Mirage exclusive association. For example, rework F4 to "New Not Distortion Shatter" Shatter your Illusions to create a Mirage Mirror at your target.

>

> 4 - To pop clones or not..... I think Mirage should continue down the clone popping path but at some point, the space should be explored for a new eSpec in a future expansion (Hello Cantha).

>

> But to the idea of Ambush and Shatter skills, let's make a simple Shatter to get it going:

> Mirage Mind Wrack

> You gain Mirage Cloak, you and your Clones Ambush with current weapon, then destroy all your clones, damaging nearby foes. The shatter effect also occurs at your location.

> The variables to tweak are; timing between Ambush and Pop, Damage of Ambush and Pop, Damage per Clone, CD, number of foes damaged by Pop

>

> The shorter the CD, the more often you get to use it, the less powerful it should be (and stronger on a longer CD), but hopefully the idea presents itself well enough.

>

>

>

> > >However, with the recent patch it made my Chrono build a little clunky with the changes to shatters,

> >

> > You find it clunky after the IP change? O.o

>

> Flow of Time (~10-12% Nerf) and Rewinder (5 second Nerf) are where I feel it the most. The Flow of Time thing is a very subtle slow down in Chrono button mashing overall really, and my rotation has now changed in different situations as some skills are not coming up as fast as they were before. The Rewinder change means I am less able to dump my clones on demand. Previously my play pattern included popping Signet of Ether to get more Phantasms going out, but that has changed to popping Signet of Illusions to reset the Shatters and keep the Clones rolling.

>

> So yeah, clunky given what I know of playing this class, which pushed me to investigate Mirage, and well, here we are....

 

TLDR: Nerf mirage more, mirrors can stay the way they're since they suck.