[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

**## Concept C (stat decrease):**

 

instead of the deletion of one dodge mirage receives a stat decrease for vitality (and/ or toughness???) of x amount of stats (suggested were -300 vita). this will not limit the number of usage from mc directly but it will compensate the strong defensive abilities mc offers with lower basic sustain.

 

with mirage becoming 2 dodges back ofc also the potential offensive power (in terms of ambush dmg and ambush utilityeffects) will increase compared to current state. so dmg numbers from condi and power ambushes from mesmer and clones can be fine tuned to compensate for the second dodge.

 

a mechanical rework of condi ambushes to less clone generated dmg (bigger focus on mesmers own ambushes to do the amount of dmg that is balanced with 2 dodges) and in general more utility based condi ambushes comparable to sword and gs ambush design is optional but here not needed to solve the issue with mc (bc that is what the stat decrease is for already). but it would solve some issues ppl complain about a lot when fighting vs mesmers, that clones overall spam too much dmg in a more passive way and that this dmg should be put back into mesmers own hands instead. also it would give condi mirage some more options for active tactical plays (timing utility effects on ambushes, see concept A).

 

ih can be baseline or not for this consept

 

[Yoci.2481]

I think it needs something about core. In the past many core traits and skill have been nerfed in order to adjust perceived or actual overperformance of elite specs. Core builds have been hit by these nerfs as collateral damage. Now that we are at a point that the elite specs are basically dead in PvP and WvW bringing them back should also be done with core traits and abilities in mind.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

**## Concept D (f1-4 shatter rework into mirage specific skills)**

 

for that concept are atm still concrete suggestions missing about how the f1-4 shatter than could look like. so pls can you add some more concrete ideas about how the tooltip of the shatters should look like in your opinion (i dont mean exact dmg numbers, more the mechanics, so what shatters are supposed to do in your consept?)

 

while you think about it pls also consider, that your consept also needs to include a solution to limit uses of mc instead staying with only one dodge.

 

also consider, that your shatter rework ideally do not make some current playstyles totally impossible (like when you turn all shatters into ambush cast skills instead the current instant shatters including the self shatter ability then that most likely will make playing gs power shatter burst mirage builds in current form impossible)

 

@"Yoci.2481" @"Dadnir.5038" @"Taril.8619" and @all ofc :)

 

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

**## Concept E (reduced clone cap from 3 to 2)**

 

this concept seems to try to reduce overall dmg from shatters (to compensate for the more in dmg mirage has from additional ambush skills) while also reducing the amount of clone generated dmg. a mirage can now only have 2 clones up at same time which can perform ambushes. that clearly will reduce the offensive power from mc uses but is still missing the limitation in defensive uses of mc (what seesm to be anets bigger issue with mc).

 

so pls @all what would you add to that consept to also reduce the defensive power from mc?

 

this concept doesnt need a condi ambush rework. maybe some dmg fine tuning on power and condi ambushes are needed to compensate for the second dodge in addition to the lower clone cap and in case ih becomes baseline.

 

ih can be baseline for this consept or not.

 

_note from me: i could imagine to reduce the evade frame from mc from 0,75 to something between 0,70-0,5 secs in additon to the clone cap change to reduce the defensive power from mc a bit too. what do you guys think about that?_

 

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

**## Concept F (???)**

 

there is still place in the document for totally different consepts to the previously shown ones, dont hesitate to come up with another one.

 

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

**# ## Sub-Concept (making ih baseline as minor trait)**

 

this sub-concept can be included into or excluded from the concepts A-F. the goal is to make balancing ambush rewards from mesmers and ih clones easier. it lowers the pressure for anet to make clone ambushes extra strong to make ih a valuable major gm traitoption to pick. so clone ambushes can overall be weaker when ih becomes baseline. esp the dmg part should mainly be put into mesmers own ambushes. for that sub-concept the mirage traitline needs few traitchanges. here are several different variants possible.

 

until now only bravan gave some more concrete suggestions how the traitline, esp the new gm traits could look like when ih becomes a minor trait

 

> 1. Dune Cloak: Clone ambush skills (or alternative Mesmer ambushes or just all ambush skills) do x% more power and x% more condi dmg with their ambush attacks

> 2. Evasive Mirror: Clones heal the Mesmer for x amount of HP for each ambush that hits a target or for each clone that performs MC. Or dodging removes one condition from the Mesmer when at least one clone hit his ambush on a target. Or remove one condition on dodge, when dodging with 3 clones up 2 conditions are removed instead. When we make it clone dependent it is something the Mesmer can work with to get an higher amount of condiremove or healing when creating more clones before dodging or to emergency remove a single but big stack of condi or heal only a little amount, that adds deepness into dodgemanagement.

> 3. Not beyond the horizon of 99,9 of the playerbase trait: The ambush-effects, like daze, blind, slow, immob, might, vuln etc. (incl. whatever effects you would need to add to condi ambushes for that they lose most of their dmg) have a X% longer duration. Or: Clones remove a boon from targets they hit with their ambush skill (for channelskills with multiple hits on same target or aoe: only the first hit on main target would remove a boon, if that hit gets dodged,blinded or fails for other reasons it doesn't remove the boon, also when the ambush hits the target with the second hit).

>

 

i also read something from @"Tayga.3192" sounded good: Make EM remove movement impairing conditions + small heal (170 base or something)

 

_note from me: i would be happy to get some more different ideas/ suggestions from other ppl too, about that ih as minor trait/ how to change mirage gm traits topic._

 

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

i leave that for further discussions in this thread.

 

in general it would be nice if you try to give additional ideas to the concepts, incl maybe improvements to what was already suggested until now. there is always room for modifying and improving the concepts A-E. just as there is still room for additional concepts to add, in case you have some more concrete ideas or in case i just forgot one that was already mentioned in this thread. i will add mine later too.

 

i also hope with that overview it got a bit more clear for you all, what im planning to do with the documents and what kind of help i need from you with that. after around 1 week i will then do the final summary that then will be put in the document.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> **## Concept D (f1-4 shatter rework into mirage specific skills)**

>

> for that consept are atm still concrete suggestions missing about how the f1-4 shatter than could look like. so pls can you add some more concrete ideas about how the tooltip of the shatters should look like in your opinion (i dont mean exact dmg numbers, more the mechanics, so what shatters are supposed to do in your consept?)

>

 

Suggestion:

- F1 replaced by _Split surge_.

- F2 replaced by _Ether barrage_.

- F3 replaced by _Mirage thrust_. (This is the trickiest, it need to be reworked to no longer be a lunge at the foe but instead be a projectile or a beam)

- F4 replaced by _Infinite Horizon_.

 

CD and damage at ANet's devs discretion.

 

> while you think about it pls also consider, that your consept also needs to include a solution to limit uses of mc instead staying with only one dodge.

>

> also consider, that your shatter rework ideally do not make some current playstyles totally impossible (like when you turn all shatters into ambush cast skills instead the current instant shatters including the self shatter ability then that most likely will make playing gs power shatter burst mirage builds in current form impossible)

>

> @"Yoci.2481" @"Dadnir.5038" @"Taril.8619" and @all ofc :)

>

 

Most everything is bound to make some playstyles vanish, this is part of the price to pay to balance things. Replacing shatters by ambush would be leaning toward making the F skills more of a sustain dps tool than a burst tool.

 

NB.: I also like the Concept E (reduced clone cap), imo that was one of the concept that I was defending before they removed a dodge. Edit: I think it was more for fixing chrono that I was defending this idea, thought...

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Most everything is bound to make some playstyles vanish, this is part of the price to pay to balance things.

 

yeah valid point, i have to accept that, even tho i dont like it in the specific context of reworking mesmer shatters into skills which are not instant anymore. in my opinion mesmer without instant shatters will not feel like a mesmer anymore. it will feel more like a scourge or engi in its playstyle. so i would more go for a elite specific shatter rework that only reduce the basic shatter dmg and for that adds some ambush reward on top of that (just like chrono has lower shatter dmg as basic and can get some dmg back when applying slow before shatter bursting). so that not the whole shatter mechanic changes. but that is just my personal feeling from loving gs power shatter playstyle over everything else.

 

so i will add your suggestiona and maybe others will follow later to the concept D. and will not request to keep current instant shatter mechanic alive for that concept anymore.

 

but pls can you add some suggestion for mc? since you go the way to separate ambushes from dodges (just not with an f5 but with a rework from f1-4) but you didnt mention what you would do with the dodges. giving 2 dodges back and make them normal dodges or what is your plan?

 

edit: nvm, me dumb. i guess your suggetion is, that losing all core shatters (incl distortion invulnerability) + making ip more or less useless for mirage is more than enough compensation for having 2 mc endurance dodges instead one.

 

 

[Yoci.2481]

What is their biggest issue with MC? Being able to use it while stunned, or being able to use abilities while invulnerable?

[Moradorin.6217]

I would love to understand how trying to get rid of condi damage on ambushes but leaving power damage or leaving the daze off clone ambush would be ok. That is the big issue I have with what Dashi suggested, frankly its total bullshit.

 

Non of this changes all the nerfs to core weapons, traits, etc.

 

IMO a better suggestion is to leave chrono and mirage in current state and buff core. Then once core is in a healthy place balance mirage to make is compelling to use for certain things. That would be balance, these suggestions alone arent going to actually balance anything.

[Moradorin.6217]

I think this whole thing is bogus, I dont think we should give bad suggestions to CMC as being endorced by the community cause we have no real option to make good suggestions since what is needed is redesign or for the spec to just be accepted and allowed to live. If I was anet or anyone who cares about the survival of the game I would look beyond my own plans and make the changes that will work for MOST players. Otherwise it will still be taking what was arguably one the 2-3 most popular classses since release and just treating it like shit which doesnt bring people back or keep people interested.

 

I think allot of people get too focused on top performance and what the most elite players want, but well franky most players dont know or care who shorts, teapot, or others are. The only ones of us who know are people who have played many years and spend allot of time in pvp and watching combat videos or raid videos. I really think seems like it will go sideways and not help mesmer at all.

 

I think the big issue is Anet, CmC, others all in this mindset that Mirage and MC is a bad broken spec. Well its not in fact before 2/25 it was kinda weak compared to others. Why? all the ambush and main weapon skill nerfs along with various trait nerfs (way less confusion stack options, etc) The real issue is HUGE because anet kept bashing Mesmer over the head for like 2 years. I really was serious when I said we shouldnt give them any suggestions. Let CmC suffer and fail some more. Maybe then he will get tired of all the grief and just make mesmer good again to keep his job and maintain the player base. Or maybe he wont and the game will continue to die off.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Most everything is bound to make some playstyles vanish, this is part of the price to pay to balance things.

> but pls can you add some suggestion for mc? since you go the way to separate ambushes from dodges (just not with an f5 but with a rework from f1-4) but you didnt mention what you would do with the dodges. giving 2 dodges back and make them normal dodges or what is your plan?

 

It is the plan indeed. Personally I don't think that MC is too strong defensively. Without the ability to increase illusions damage on top of it via ambushs, it's no stronger than a frame of distorsion. And if distorsion was an issue, _Blurred inscriptions_ would have been nerfed long ago.

 

Concept D also lead to create a new trait to replace _riddle of sand_ which could be a good opportunity to reduce a bit condi (confusion) burst.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"Yoci.2481" said:

> What is their biggest issue with MC? Being able to use it while stunned, or being able to use abilities while invulnerable?

 

he just said mc as a whole (so i guess its both)

 

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> I would love to understand how trying to get rid of condi damage on ambushes but leaving power damage or leaving the daze off clone ambush would be ok. That is the big issue I have with what Dashi suggested, frankly its total kitten.

 

im bit confused here. i guess you talk about consept A? it doesnt suggest to remove condis from ambushes. it just sugggests to rework condi ambushes to be more equal to power ambushes in the mechanic. so more utility main purpose overall not only main purpose dmg, while moving clone ambush condi dmg more to the mirages own ambush (so mirages own ambush ofc has still direct condi dmg included) and while clone ambushes be more about the short utilityeffect with either no dmg on top (comparable to sword) or only very little direct condi dmg on top of the utility effect (comparable to gs). it doesnt intend to make condi ambushes worse than power ambushes, it is more to bring the mechanics from power and condi ambushes to an equal lvl.

 

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"Yoci.2481" said:

> What is their biggest issue with MC? Being able to use it while stunned, or being able to use abilities while invulnerable?

 

Both, I'm sure. But It's OK for a Thief to have 3 offensive dodges.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > Most everything is bound to make some playstyles vanish, this is part of the price to pay to balance things.

> > but pls can you add some suggestion for mc? since you go the way to separate ambushes from dodges (just not with an f5 but with a rework from f1-4) but you didnt mention what you would do with the dodges. giving 2 dodges back and make them normal dodges or what is your plan?

>

> It is the plan indeed. Personally I don't think that MC is too strong defensively. Without the ability to increase illusions damage on top of it via ambushs, it's no stronger than a frame of distorsion. And if distorsion was an issue, _Blurred inscriptions_ would have been nerfed long ago.

>

> Concept D also lead to create a new trait to replace _riddle of sand_ which could be a good opportunity to reduce a bit condi (confusion) burst.

 

yeah i edited my post before i read your answer ;) i indeed think too, that losing instant shatters incl distortion + making ip kinda senseless for mirage is enough of a compensation. so in your consept mirage can just get 2 mc dodges. there is no need for further nerfs by turning it into normal dodges. maybe we could even consider some rebuffs to mc then, like making the mc duration be 1 sec again.

 

what is missing in your consept is, what you would then have as 3. major gm trait when you put ih on f4. its an empty traitslot atm. one idea i have would be that this trait buffs f4 in a way it turns it into 2 charges (from basicly one, same as shatter storm in illusion does for mw) which will refill with using mc.

[viquing.8254]

@"Jazz.4639" :

 

Good job.

 

Slight more precision about Concept B :

Refill can be on shatter, or by amno, I didn't really care about this. (Probably better by amno as it didn't need to maximise vigor by stuff/traits.).

The F5 button when the bar is full pop a mirror on the mirage = activating mc and ambushes. I didn't unlink ambushes from mc, I unlink mc from evade.

 

 

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > @"Yoci.2481" said:

> > What is their biggest issue with MC? Being able to use it while stunned, or being able to use abilities while invulnerable?

>

> Both, I'm sure. But It's OK for a Thief to have 3 offensive dodges.

 

And a healing skill with a built in evade that makes is functionally uninterruptible outside of the extremely rare and limited wards only available on two classes, spammable attacks on almost every weapon kit that provide evade, and elite skill that does damage while evading, multiple utility skills that provide evade on top of very powerful effects, none of which need to be traited to gain the functionality.

[Koen.1327]

save the rework and keep 50 endurance but make ambush skills stronger

[Moradorin.6217]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"Yoci.2481" said:

> > What is their biggest issue with MC? Being able to use it while stunned, or being able to use abilities while invulnerable?

>

> he just said mc as a whole (so i guess its both)

>

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > I would love to understand how trying to get rid of condi damage on ambushes but leaving power damage or leaving the daze off clone ambush would be ok. That is the big issue I have with what Dashi suggested, frankly its total kitten.

>

> im bit confused here. i guess you talk about consept A? it doesnt suggest to remove condis from ambushes. it just sugggests to rework condi ambushes to be more equal to power ambushes in the mechanic. so more utility main purpose overall not only main purpose dmg, while moving clone ambush condi dmg more to the mirages own ambush (so mirages own ambush ofc has still direct condi dmg included) and while clone ambushes be more about the short utilityeffect with either no dmg on top (comparable to sword) or only very little direct condi dmg on top of the utility effect (comparable to gs). it doesnt intend to make condi ambushes worse than power ambushes, it is more to bring the mechanics from power and condi ambushes to an equal lvl.

>

 

Im ok with that idea. I mean that is more of less what I and others have suggested many times which is to make IH baseline "somehow" and tune ambush damage per weapon set cause they are all in different places.

 

What I object to is the idea that MC can be scrapped or that ambushes could be scrapped or reduced only to daze on sword type ultility. I think the spec calls for damage from clone ambush unless we are getting improved shatter damage or some other boost to damage because mirage damage is in a good place in general. Also without MC mirage is literally core mesmer with shitty traits.

 

Additionally you say yourself they cannot do a redesign so the idea or removing or doing much to change MC sounds right out.

[Moradorin.6217]

> @"Koen.1327" said:

> save the rework and keep 50 endurance but make ambush skills stronger

 

right TBH it seems like a decent option. Its gimy as fuck but so are all of these changes. May as well just make 50% endurace in all modes and make ambushes not suck and replace IH with a trait that boosts weapon damage or shatter damage. Simple to do and would actually work.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> **## Concept D (f1-4 shatter rework into mirage specific skills)**

>

> for that consept are atm still concrete suggestions missing about how the f1-4 shatter than could look like. so pls can you add some more concrete ideas about how the tooltip of the shatters should look like in your opinion (i dont mean exact dmg numbers, more the mechanics, so what shatters are supposed to do in your consept?)

>

> while you think about it pls also consider, that your consept also needs to include a solution to limit uses of mc instead staying with only one dodge.

 

A quick and dirty concept. Could probably do with some refinement. (The hope is such a concept can help get some creative juices flowing and hopefully give ideas as opposed to being a fully fledged suggestion)

 

New effect: "Mirage Strike" is a new buff icon indicating that Ambush skills are ready. It lasts for 10 seconds and stacks charges. Each Ambush attack consumes a charge.

 

Ambush skills now have a 2s shared cooldown on their usage up from 1s.

 

**F1- _Sand Storm_**

Shatter your clones damaging nearby foes and allowing you to use Ambush skills. Gain increased damage with Ambush skills. The shatter effect also occurs at your location.

 

Deals X damage per shatter. Provides 1 charge of "Mirage Strike" and "Sand Strike" per shatter.

Sand Strike is a buff that causes Ambush skills to deal increased damage (To be adjusted at balancing stage. Spitball around 20-30% damage increase?) and is consumed by Ambush skills.

 

**F2- _Desert Sands_**

Shatter your clones damaging neaby foes and inflicting Torment and allowing you to use Ambush skills. Ambush skills inflict Burning. The shatter effect also occurs at your location.

 

Deals Y damage per shatter and applies X stacks of Torment. Provides 1 charge of "Mirage Strike" and "Desert Strike" per shatter.

Desert Strike is a buff that causes Ambush skills to inflict a short duration Burning condition and is consumed by Ambush skills.

 

**F3- _Arid Night_**

Shatter your clones dazing nearby foes and allowing you to use Ambush skills. Ambush skills inflict Chill. The shatter effect also occurs at your location.

 

Dazes for X seconds (0.5? 0.75? 1?) per shatter. Provides 1 charge of "Mirage Strike" and "Arid Strike" per shatter.

Arid Strike is a buff that causes Ambush skills to inflict a short duration Chill condition and is consumed by Ambush skills.

 

**F4- _Sands of Reflection_**

You and your clones teleport to random locations around your target and then shatter, gaining 1s of Distortion and leaving behind Mirage Mirrors.

 

**_Mirage Mirror_**

Reworked.

If an enemy touches a Mirror it deals damage to them and inflicts Weakness and Cripple.

If you touch a Mirror it grants 25 Endurance and Vigor.

 

**_Infinite Horizon_**

Whenever you gain Mirage Cloak, your clones gain a charge of Mirage Strike (10s CD)

[Moradorin.6217]

How about leave mirage with 1 dodge and replace IH with a permanently refreshing alacrity and quickness on self

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> How about leave mirage with 1 dodge and replace IH with a permanently refreshing alacrity and quickness on self

 

you mean firebrand?

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> What I object to is the idea that MC can be scrapped or that ambushes could be scrapped or reduced only to daze on sword type ultility. I think the spec calls for damage from clone ambush unless we are getting improved shatter damage or some other boost to damage because mirage damage is in a good place in general. Also without MC mirage is literally core mesmer with kitten traits.

>

> Additionally you say yourself they cannot do a redesign so the idea or removing or doing much to change MC sounds right out.

 

i didnt say they cannot do a redesign, i just said they cannot rework mc itself (like deleting one of its abilities while keeping the other). and yes it ofc can happen that doing this document is a waste of time and nothing of it will go live. cmc said that very clear. but he will read it he said and he will see what he can do. so i think its worth trying.

 

do you rly think it matters where the dmg comes from? why you think clones need to have that much dmg themself on ambushes? it works fine with lower or no dmg on power weapons, while the mesmers own ambushes are the rly strong ones. why shouldnt that work on condis as well? the good thing with having the dmg mostly on mesmers own ambush is, that it is more active overall and that mirage rly lose a big dmg part when being stunned, so eating the stun comes with higher costs in offensive power, even tho the mirage can dodge some follow up. at least they cannot counterburst with condi from clones while being stunned anymore, what clearly makes mc less of an balance issue i would say.

 

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> How about leave mirage with 1 dodge and replace IH with a permanently refreshing alacrity and quickness on self

then you have no clone dmg and no clone utility, what would be even worse considering your previous post about that you think this spec needs some kind of clone dmg or do i missunderstood something?

also it would delete a lot from what makes sword mirage so interesting and different to play and adds so many options for outplays. i would miss current ih a lot tbh.

 

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> @"Jazz.4639" :

>

> Good job.

>

> Slight more precision about Concept B :

> Refill can be on shatter, or by amno, I didn't really care about this. (Probably better by amno as it didn't need to maximise vigor by stuff/traits.).

> The F5 button when the bar is full pop a mirror on the mirage = activating mc and ambushes. I didn't unlink ambushes from mc, I unlink mc from evade.

 

thx <3

 

oh i missunderstood you then, haha kinda sad bc i rly liked the idea to link the refill with dodges, esp bc you can buff it with vigor and bc you then still have some active impact on the refill rate. but i guess i will just claim it as my suggestion then hehe. so you are same opinion as bravan to make an ammo skill with independent refill rate from dodges. and you want to add another mirror generation on f5, do i get that right? if yes i will edit that into the consept later (but lets think about it for short, you try to create a reward for not using ambushes before the refill of both charges is fully done? im not sure if that isnt contra-productive a little bit, we want ambush uses at times it makes sense to counter enemies moves in a fight, trying to create a pressure into not using ambushes until the 2 charges are fully refilled feels a bit strange to me).

 

 

@"Taril.8619" that i call concrete, well done! :) i will add it to the document