[Doc] Mesmer changes suggestions for CmC

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Also I've said before the entire philosophy and implementation of trade offs has been fundamentally flawed, and feels scattershot, poorly thought out, and seems like it completely disregards the notion of balance in favor of being able to throw out the buzzword "Trade off" and tick a check off their to do list. I've said before 1000x but the better designed elite specs from a design stand point tend to be very focused in nature in terms of what the spec is supposed to do and augment.

>

> > A change I've always liked is a -300 vitality penalty to Mirage. It makes leagues more sense than losing an endurance bar, on the dedicated evasion elite spec and unnecessarily gutting profession mechanics in the name of it NEEDING to be different with ZERO regard in terms of actual balance, playability, or fun.

>

> Personally, I abhor the E-Spec "Tradeoffs" that are simply "This thing is now worse"

>

> Especially when it's trying to justify what is essentially just powercreep over Core - Given that at one point e-specs were _supposed_ to be sidegrades, giving alternate ways of playing and build options. While the current result is we simply have powercreep and you just pick an E-Spec because it's better than core, even with some penalty tacked on top.

>

> I much prefer the E-Spec implementations that **change the class mechanic** into something similar, but different. Such as the likes of Scourge, Chronomancer, Berserker (Aside from the -300 Toughness penalty and the janky need to run Rage skills) and to a lesser extent Weaver (It uses the same Attunements as core, but in a unique way via dual attunement)

>

> Not only does it help create a different feel for the E-Spec, but it helps them not feel like simply powercreep because of just being Core, but with extra stuff on top (For example, Druid is just core Ranger but with Celestial Avatar. Soulbeast is just core Ranger but with Merge. Tempest is just core Elementalist but with Overload. Both Guardian E-Specs are just core Guardian but with better Virtues. Both Engineer E-Specs are just core Engie with better F5 skills. Reaper is just core Necro with better Shroud skills)

>

> Since when the class mechanic is being changed, then the "Tradeoff" is inherently, no longer having access to the core mechanic as the trade for getting the new mechanic.

>

> As such, my preferred outcome for Mirage, is getting unique shatter skills. Ones that function in a unique way in order to emphasise the way that Mirage should play. Rather than just being core shatters with Mirage's Ambushes slapped on top as an additional mechanic and advantage over Core Mesmer.

 

Druid is actually on paper one of the better designed elite specs. Everything about the spec pushes Druid in one specific direction; sustain. Just the simple act of taking Druid means no matter what you will never be able to deal as much damage as a core ranger, let alone a Soulbeast. There's reasons for running Druid and there's reasons for running core right there without any artificial tradeoffs. It's hard baked into the weapon, the traits, and the utility skills. So there are reasons to run Druid and reasons to run Core Ranger and reasons to run Soulbeast without having to artificially crowbar a "trade off" nerf into a build that was already _genuinely dead_ competitively. The problem with Druid was a double whammy of staff and the Glyphs are not actually good for supporting teammates in a competitive setting and Guild Wars 2's combat system struggle where anything that heals it's team a lot to theoretically support them also heals itself a lot and becomes an absurdly resilient bunker.

 

Like what makes Scourge and Reaper good is because they very potently push Necromancer into specific unique playstyles. Scourge makes necro a more potent Condi and AoE spec at the cost of having a sort of turret based gameplay and no shroud. Reaper becomes a melee damage monster at the expense of faster shroud degeneration and being forced to take more damage in general because it has to physically go into melee range and open itself up for damage rather than kiting with normal Death Shroud.

 

Chronomancer? All they did was make shatters fundamentally worse and massively disrupt their playability by removing Illusory Persona. If they actually redesigned the shatters that followed a certain toolset, theme and design path and make it really strong in unique ways that's different than Core that'd be one thing, like if all the shatters were actually different skills focused on buffing your team and pushed Chronomancer into like a very potent teamfight support build like Firebrand or Tempest that can swing the entire teamfight. But what they did with Chronomancer failed on every single front. It doesn't provide a new interesting angle to a class, all it did was crowbar nerfs into a class so hard it literally killed it for a year in PvP because they ran with this philosophy at any and all cost with zero regard for balance.

 

Also you mention firebrand, holosmith, and reaper as bad examples of trade offs but Arenanet have identified those as having great trade offs despite Firebrand and Holosmith probably being the worst case of "It only does everything" power creep elite specs the game has ever added, which again illustrates my point that Arenanet's philosophy and handling of trade offs is bad and halfhazard and has zero regard for the game's actual balance.

[Taril.8619]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Druid is actually on paper one of the better designed elite specs.

 

On paper, sure.

 

But on paper, you can also see that without the 20% nerf to pet stats, they are simply just Core Ranger if they picked a non-damage focused 3rd spec.

 

Like, the fundamental difference between Druid and say, Marksmanship/Beast Mastery/Nature Magic Ranger is... Druid has additional stuff. They have the additional Celestial Avatar mechanic, the additional weapon and the additional utilities.

 

They have less damage potential due to not being able to pick full glass cannon 3 damage specs, but that's about it.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Like what makes Scourge and Reaper good is because they very potently push Necromancer into specific unique playstyles. Scourge makes necro a more potent Condi and AoE spec at the cost of having a sort of turret based gameplay and no shroud. Reaper becomes a melee damage monster at the expense of faster shroud degeneration and being forced to take more damage in general because it has to physically go into melee range and open itself up for damage rather than kiting with normal Death Shroud.

 

What makes Scourge so good, is that their class mechanic is fundamentally changed. Instead of using the mechanic of building up Life Force to then enter a transformation that removes utility skills, gives a different weapon set and drains Life Force while having LF replace your health bar. They simply get the Shroud skills as always available F buttons.

 

This changes the way the class plays as a whole, as it's no longer focused around flipping into Shroud and losing half of your kit to be substituted by a plethora of traits that jack up your stats to compensate.

 

While Reaper doesn't do this. It still functions on the exact same mechanic as core shroud. The "Tradeoff" of having faster LF drain is mitigated by having LF gain on auto attacks. The "Tradeoff" for being more melee focused is having Necro's only good mobility skill.

 

The only notable differences that make Core playable compared to Reaper is that Reaper sucks at Condi damage which is relevant for PvP where Condi Bunker is a thing for Core (Which cannot be done by Scourge since Scourge's mechanic doesn't lend itself to being as hard to kill as Core Shroud even if Scourge has better Condi Damage output with more access to Burning)

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Chronomancer? All they did was make shatters fundamentally worse and massively disrupt their playability by removing Illusory Persona.

 

ANet's complete inability to balance anything doesn't detract from the fact that Chrono has unique shatters that bring something different to the class. Even if the only one that has a real functionality change is Continuum Split due to ANet not knowing how to balance Mesmer properly after making them hyper focused around Shatter playstyle since the removal of permanent Phantasms.

 

Of course, it'd be far more interesting if they did go all out with more focus on providing support with shatters as opposed to them still being a primary source of damage output. But even in its current state, its attempt at "Tradeoffs" with a change of class mechanic is still infinitely more interesting than "Just remove some stats from the powercreep E-Spec"

 

Even more so when it can still (relatively) easily transition into that state where it's entire concept plays out differently, as opposed to being stuck in some awkward spot where it's a matter of balancing out the powercreep with various arbitrary nerfs to aspects of the class, be it stat nerfs, loss of endurance bars, or just nerfs to the class mechanic (Such as Spellbreaker's 2 adrenaline cap and level 1 burst limit or Daredevil's loss of 600 range on their F1. As well as some people suggesting things for Mirage such as being capped at 2 clones)

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Druid is actually on paper one of the better designed elite specs.

>

> On paper, sure.

>

> But on paper, you can also see that without the 20% nerf to pet stats, they are simply just Core Ranger if they picked a non-damage focused 3rd spec.

>

> Like, the fundamental difference between Druid and say, Marksmanship/Beast Mastery/Nature Magic Ranger is... Druid has additional stuff. They have the additional Celestial Avatar mechanic, the additional weapon and the additional utilities.

>

> They have less damage potential due to not being able to pick full glass cannon 3 damage specs, but that's about it.

 

And that's enough because staff and Celestial Avatar do change what a ranger is and what it does on a massive level while the fundamentals of core ranger still allow it to shine and have niches without needing to crow bar in nerfs to a spec that was already struggling massively in PvP and with that finally killed it dead. You complain about power creep ect. ect. but there's literally no argument about culling power creep when you're talking about elite specs that were already massively underperforming compared to their core version. The druid pet nerf was completely unjustified in an actual balance sense and frankly that's more important.

 

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Like what makes Scourge and Reaper good is because they very potently push Necromancer into specific unique playstyles. Scourge makes necro a more potent Condi and AoE spec at the cost of having a sort of turret based gameplay and no shroud. Reaper becomes a melee damage monster at the expense of faster shroud degeneration and being forced to take more damage in general because it has to physically go into melee range and open itself up for damage rather than kiting with normal Death Shroud.

>

> What makes Scourge so good, is that their class mechanic is fundamentally changed. Instead of using the mechanic of building up Life Force to then enter a transformation that removes utility skills, gives a different weapon set and drains Life Force while having LF replace your health bar. They simply get the Shroud skills as always available F buttons.

>

> This changes the way the class plays as a whole, as it's no longer focused around flipping into Shroud and losing half of your kit to be substituted by a plethora of traits that jack up your stats to compensate.

>

> While Reaper doesn't do this. It still functions on the exact same mechanic as core shroud. The "Tradeoff" of having faster LF drain is mitigated by having LF gain on auto attacks. The "Tradeoff" for being more melee focused is having Necro's only good mobility skill.

>

> The only notable differences that make Core playable compared to Reaper is that Reaper sucks at Condi damage which is relevant for PvP where Condi Bunker is a thing for Core (Which cannot be done by Scourge since Scourge's mechanic doesn't lend itself to being as hard to kill as Core Shroud even if Scourge has better Condi Damage output with more access to Burning)

 

I think scourge is pretty cool. I also think reaper is pretty cool. There have been eras, pre-megabalance before scourge selfshade loss where all three specs saw heavy use in Ranked PvP. Reaper isn't just faster shroud degen. It also is 100% melee while in Shroud. It fundamentally changes how you play necromancer by reorientating it towards melee, which makes it powerful but also means you WILL take more damage than Death Shroud where you're free to kite while attacking, preserving your shroud. And it isn't just core has condis, power core necro saw a massive resurgence post megabalance.

 

Seriously, reaper is fine. You're probably the only person I've ever seen that hates it. If you ask the community which was worse for the game for balance throughout the game's history, reaper or scourge, scourge would win that poll 100%.

 

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Chronomancer? All they did was make shatters fundamentally worse and massively disrupt their playability by removing Illusory Persona.

>

> ANet's complete inability to balance anything doesn't detract from the fact that Chrono has unique shatters that bring something different to the class. Even if the only one that has a real functionality change is Continuum Split due to ANet not knowing how to balance Mesmer properly after making them hyper focused around Shatter playstyle since the removal of permanent Phantasms.

>

> Of course, it'd be far more interesting if they did go all out with more focus on providing support with shatters as opposed to them still being a primary source of damage output. But even in its current state, its attempt at "Tradeoffs" with a change of class mechanic is still infinitely more interesting than "Just remove some stats from the powercreep E-Spec"

>

> Even more so when it can still (relatively) easily transition into that state where it's entire concept plays out differently, as opposed to being stuck in some awkward spot where it's a matter of balancing out the powercreep with various arbitrary nerfs to aspects of the class, be it stat nerfs, loss of endurance bars, or just nerfs to the class mechanic (Such as Spellbreaker's 2 adrenaline cap and level 1 burst limit or Daredevil's loss of 600 range on their F1. As well as some people suggesting things for Mirage such as being capped at 2 clones)

 

We're going to have to fundamentally disagree, I don't think we'll ever find common ground. I have literally zero positives to say about the Chronomancer shatter reworks. Literally nothing. Chronomancer does not have unique shatters outside of Continuum Split. They are fundamentally the exact same shatters as core but worse. You still shatter clones, your clones still run at the target and explode, and they come in the exact same Power, Confusion, and Daze framework. Calling them "Unique shatters" or that the change was good is just ridiculous and indefensible.

 

Balance IS more important than Arenanet being able to pat themselves on the back and say "We made chronomancer unique!" while the spec lies dead in the gutter, untouched for a year when there was every indication what they were about to do would kill the spec.

 

Elite specs are always going to some form of interpretation of the core class with unique attributes, and every class's traits are so fundamentally ties to their profession mechanic that they will never truly getaway from them. They're never going to completely divorced from their core class, not even scourge does that. What matters is do they bring enough interesting to the table, do they have a unique niche, strengths and weaknesses that facilitates new gameplay styles, do they do it without completely stepping on the core's toes balance wise, and do they fit reasonably well into the competitive meta in general to be neither over powered or under powered.

 

What matters more for elite specs is that they have different strengths and weaknesses than core and the other elite specs. And targeting the right stats smartly is a blunt but effective way of doing that. Take another example, even Holosmith lost ALL their toolbelt skills for Photon Forge, it wouldn't be an appropriate trade off because of how much Holosmith's Photon Forge and Traits are some of the worst example of "It only does anything" specs in the game, granting them more power damage, condition damage, mobility, active mitigation, protection and durability, self healing, crowd control over core Engineer. Just completely ripping out the Toolbelt skills in favor of Photon Forge doesn't fix what's actually wrong with the profession in a competitive sense. Now if you gave Holosmith a -20% healing penalty for taking the elite spec, you've shaped it in a significant way, giving it strengths in it's higher damage and mobility, but in exchange for that damage and mobility it's inherently riskier to play and it gives you a clear answer for why you might want to play Core Engineer over holosmith. It'd become a high risk high reward spec that's very potent but significantly easy to punish when it missplays. That's more important than arbitrarily tinkering with the F skills for the sake of tinkering them.

 

Also after the megabalance it's lost past the time to give a single fuck about power creep. We're in an era where everyone is doing 30% less damage on the same build and stats in PvP than they were in Core GW2. We're in full on power decay, literally everyone is weaker than they have ever been.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > While I appreciate the effort, I must say that the way you phrase things here is bound to give cold feet to the people that contributed in good faith.

>

> sry im not sure what you mean. all i was saying is, that i want to split balance suggstions into different and for that shorter and more focused on a specific topic documents easier to consume for cmc. i think doing more shorter documents makes more sense than giving him one big document to eat. you are all still free to add core trait and weapon suggestions and as said i keep them in mind for later documents. it will not be a waste of time for you.

>

> i also ask for more concrete mechanical suggestions to the mirage topic, bc the goal is to find a few different consepts to change mirage to balance out mc as alternatives to the one dodge nerf. saying make ih baseline ofc is one good suggetsion but it needs to come with some other changes, it needs to be put into a whole consept otherwise it will just be broken (like it doesnt solve any problem of mc, it would be just a straight up buff, ofc it will make balancing ambushes easier after but still first of all its a buff that doesnt sovle any issues from mc). i dont think im asking for too much or do i?

 

It's the opposite, I'd say that you want to do "too much".

 

If anything players should contribute in identifying the issues. What you want to do is going a step further and suggest solution to issues that are yet to be acknowledge by the developpers.

 

In itself the thread is good, it allow players to express themself and try to point out what's wrong from their point of view. However, you come on top of that and basically say: "Thank you, I'm filtering this, I'm not a fan of some of these change so we will focus on the change I like and in the end I'll give my own suggestions to the devs".

 

I believe that the feedback would probably come out better (and be less frustrating for the players that contributed) if it was less about suggestion of things to do than an honest feedback on what feel "wrong" with the profession and a few example on what length the players are ready to go to correct this. It feel like you're skipping the what feel "wrong", taking it as granted, and going straigth for suggestions within the scope of what you personally are ready to see happen.

 

Let's first agree with each other and have the devs acknowledge thing like:

- Whether Conditions still don't feel like they are ramping up slowly or not.

- If a single dodge on mirage feel right and if it's a satisfying long term solution as a trade off.

- Are ambushes powercreep or not? How do we have them heathily coexist with shatter depending on the answer?

- ... etc.

 

For each point, reaching a consensus and giving an example of the more "agreeable" solution suggested by the community along with more "excentric" suggestions.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> It's the opposite, I'd say that you want to do "too much".

>

> If anything players should contribute in identifying the issues. What you want to do is going a step further and suggest solution to issues that are yet to be acknowledge by the developpers.

 

the thing is, the devs are aware of what the issues are, they are aware of deleting one dodge is totally " hardhandled" (cmc quote) as a nerf to mc and that even coaches from other classes mentioned, how critical that nerf for the spec is. just repeating that will not do much. the problem the devs have, is to have ides of what to do instead. alternatives that keeps their goal up of limiting the uses of mc but without the bad side effects of dumbing it down even further and destroying one big part of the mirage mechanic (=ambushes with and without ih). atm ambushes and with that ih are so much limited in their reward by the one dodge, that condi mirage builds do not rly use them (except for sword ambush from the mesmer itself) and that power mirage is even more unviable than before. so only claiming "this and this is too weak", "pls buff this and that, but how you buff it is your job anet not mine" is not rly that constructive and helpful overall i think. esp in terms of the mechanical issues mirage has, which cannot be solved by simple number buffs. so we need to be a bit more concrete in finding also mechanical solutions for the issues, not only mentioning issues the devs are mostly aware off anyway. and tbh it wasnt going that bad until now. several ppl already contributed good ideas of consepts. maybe it will get more clear when i do an overview to have less chaos in the thread.

 

> However, you come on top of that and basically say: "Thank you, I'm filtering this, I'm not a fan of some of these change so we will focus on the change I like and in the end I'll give my own suggestions to the devs".

 

that is not rly true, i just added my opinion to some stuff, that didnt mean i will not include them in the summary when it is overall a working consept seems doable with anets resources. i do not exclude ideas just bc i personally do not like them. but ofc i have to filter and im only a human, i cannot jump out of my own head, so ofc there is some subjective decision making involved by trying to filter stuff that seems to make sense (as much as possible apart from personal issues and preferences) and stuff that is not doable for anet anyway and with that just a waste of paper to include in the document. if i just wanted my own suggestion and only them to be in the document i would not have opened this thread to give ppl the chance to brainstorm and participate. other coaches made the documents by their own (what is not a bad thing either, no critic for other coaches involved, it is just another way of producing a document).

 

 

 

> Let's first agree with each other and have the devs acknowledge thing like:

> - Whether Conditions still don't feel like they are ramping up slowly or not.

> - If a single dodge on mirage feel right and if it's a satisfying long term solution as a trade off.

> - Are ambushes powercreep or not? How do we have them heathily coexist with shatter depending on the answer?

> - ... etc.

>

> For each point, reaching a consensus and giving an example of the more "agreeable" solution suggested by the community along with more "excentric" suggestions.

 

but that is exactly the plan. and that ppl first describe what they have an issue with and then give ideas for solution is exactly what happend and i want to happen more, but in terms of solutions becoming a bit more concrete. bc you know, a document only including facile stuff like

1. pls buff staff

2. pls buff gs

3. pls buff axe

4. pls give us our dodge back

5. pls give us ih as minor

6. pls give give give... while ignoring the issue anet communicated to the coaches, the issues they have with mc... that simply will not work.

 

anet has a concrete issue with the nature of mc and wants to limit its uses. we can complain about that and say that we do not share anets opinion in that regard, but that will not help either. the only thing we can do is to give alternatives how to reach anets goal but without or at least with less unintended negative side effects for the spec. at least that i want the topic of the first document to be. weapon reworks or buff, core mesmer traits and skills reworks and buffs/ nerfs can be part of a second document. so writing them down in this thread is also fine and i will keep them in mind already. i just dont want to overwhelm cmc with a too long document trying to deal with all issues mesmer as a whole class has all at once. i think step by step will make it easier to deal with it for cmc.

 

 

[Moradorin.6217]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > It's the opposite, I'd say that you want to do "too much".

> >

> > If anything players should contribute in identifying the issues. What you want to do is going a step further and suggest solution to issues that are yet to be acknowledge by the developpers.

>

> the thing is, the devs are aware of what the issues are, they are aware of deleting one dodge is totally " hardhandled" (cmc quote) as a nerf to mc and that even coaches from other classes mentioned, how critical that nerf for the spec is. just repeating that will not do much. the problem the devs have, is to have ides of what to do instead. alternatives that keeps their goal up of limiting the uses of mc but without the bad side effects of dumbing it down even further and destroying one big part of the mirage mechanic (=ambushes with and without ih). atm ambushes and with that ih are so much limited in their reward by the one dodge, that condi mirage builds do not rly use them (except for sword ambush from the mesmer itself) and that power mirage is even more unviable than before. so only claiming "this and this is too weak", "pls buff this and that, but how you buff it is your job anet not mine" is not rly that constructive and helpful overall i think. esp in terms of the mechanical issues mirage has, which cannot be solved by simple number buffs. so we need to be a bit more concrete in finding also mechanical solutions for the issues, not only mentioning issues the devs are mostly aware off anyway. and tbh it wasnt going that bad until now. several ppl already contributed good ideas of consepts. maybe it will get more clear when i do an overview to have less chaos in the thread.

>

> > However, you come on top of that and basically say: "Thank you, I'm filtering this, I'm not a fan of some of these change so we will focus on the change I like and in the end I'll give my own suggestions to the devs".

>

> that is not rly true, i just added my opinion to some stuff, that didnt mean i will not include them in the summary when it is overall a working consept seems doable with anets resources. i do not exclude ideas just bc i personally do not like them. but ofc i have to filter and im only a human, i cannot jump out of my own head, so ofc there is some subjective decision making involved by trying to filter stuff that seems to make sense (as much as possible apart from personal issues and preferences) and stuff that is not doable for anet anyway and with that just a waste of paper to include in the document. if i just wanted my own suggestion and only them to be in the document i would not have opened this thread to give ppl the chance to brainstorm and participate. other coaches made the documents by their own (what is not a bad thing either, no critic for other coaches involved, it is just another way of producing a document).

>

>

>

> > Let's first agree with each other and have the devs acknowledge thing like:

> > - Whether Conditions still don't feel like they are ramping up slowly or not.

> > - If a single dodge on mirage feel right and if it's a satisfying long term solution as a trade off.

> > - Are ambushes powercreep or not? How do we have them heathily coexist with shatter depending on the answer?

> > - ... etc.

> >

> > For each point, reaching a consensus and giving an example of the more "agreeable" solution suggested by the community along with more "excentric" suggestions.

>

> but that is exactly the plan. and that ppl first describe what they have an issue with and then give ideas for solution is exactly what happend and i want to happen more, but in terms of solutions becoming a bit more concrete. bc you know, a document only including facile stuff like

> 1. pls buff staff

> 2. pls buff gs

> 3. pls buff axe

> 4. pls give us our dodge back

> 5. pls give us ih as minor

> 6. pls give give give... while ignoring the issue anet communicated to the coaches, the issues they have with mc... that simply will not work.

>

> anet has a concrete issue with the nature of mc and wants to limit its uses. we can complain about that and say that we do not share anets opinion in that regard, but that will not help either. the only thing we can do is to give alternatives how to reach anets goal but without or at least with less unintended negative side effects for the spec. at least that i want the topic of the first document to be. weapon reworks or buff, core mesmer traits and skills reworks and buffs/ nerfs can be part of a second document. so writing them down in this thread is also fine and i will keep them in mind already. i just dont want to overwhelm cmc with a too long document trying to deal with all issues mesmer as a whole class has all at once. i think step by step will make it easier to deal with it for cmc.

>

>

 

I guess I really want to ask Anet CMC a question! That question is basically if MC is a "solid issue that needs to be limited" Then I would like to know what makes Mirage an Espec without MC? BTW the correct answer is nothing at all, without MC Mirage is core Mesmer with less trait options.

[Moradorin.6217]

The Mirror mechanic is garbage and most competent players avoid it, the utilities pretty much again not worth using, the whole thing boils down to the simple fact that Mirage is total shit in general without MC. Actually without MC mirage isnt even an espec its core w crappy deceptions. IMO If Anet has big issues with MC then they need to do a total redesign on Mirage, BUT ohh wait they don't have the resources for full redesign, so they are looking for ways to "fix" Mirage, well then we need 2 dodges AND MC or just leave Mirage and stop teasing us!

 

Seriously, maybe at this point Anet needs to explain to us what is wrong with MC and what they think would work to "limit its use" The way I see it MC was always VERY limited. What I mean is, MC has always been limited by energy pool and ones ability to apply an ambush when you dodge. MC is NOTHING but a dodge that opens up Ambush. Nothing else. Its really really dirt simple and I have never understood what the issue was with adjusting ambush damage. I really cannot help but question the basic competence of Anets "game designers" in general when I really think about this issue.

[Moradorin.6217]

Its a game, I mean IMO if anet cannot do a redesign and they accept that the split design for Mirage 1 dodge is a bad idea. If we also accept that its a game that needs players it seems like the best idea for Anet is to find a way to make Mirage fun to play again. Otherwise, its hard NOT to see this as a massive falure that they can never resolve. I mean they should just make it playable even if balance isnt perfect, seriously. Its a GD game. It has other bigger issues than Mirage ever was.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> The Mirror mechanic is garbage and most competent players avoid it, the utilities pretty much again not worth using, the whole thing boils down to the simple fact that Mirage is total kitten in general without MC. Actually without MC mirage isnt even an espec its core w crappy deceptions. IMO If Anet has big issues with MC then they need to do a total redesign on Mirage, BUT ohh wait they don't have the resources for full redesign, so they are looking for ways to "fix" Mirage, well then we need 2 dodges AND MC or just leave Mirage and stop teasing us!

>

> Seriously, maybe at this point Anet needs to explain to us what is wrong with MC and what they think would work to "limit its use" The way I see it MC was always VERY limited. What I mean is, MC has always been limited by energy pool and ones ability to apply an ambush when you dodge. MC is NOTHING but a dodge that opens up Ambush. Nothing else. Its really really dirt simple and I have never understood what the issue was with adjusting ambush damage. I really cannot help but question the basic competence of Anets "game designers" in general when I really think about this issue.

 

yes i totally agree but sadly it will not work like that. i can just tell you what cmc clearly said to that topic (and what also was inbetween the lines more or less):

 

**for them** mc is an unhealthy and broken mechanic, the ability to dodge while being stunned with endurance dodges should not exist in the first place, just as the ability to cover casts with endurance dodges should not exist either, at least not both in one dodge (obviously it was not cmc creating mirage for pof, dunno what happend to the devs creating mirage and why they dont explain the mechanics to cmc and why it is not as broken as cmc sees it, at least not on a class like mesmer and compared to what other classes still have and why they dont explain to cmc why the one dodge change is just unbearable).

 

my questions about if it is possible to rework mc directly so it can lose at least one of these 2 "broken" abilities was negated. it seems to be not possible to rework mc like that. they also had no other idea how to deal with it (without deleting it completely, what ofc is not possible bc as you say mirage wouldnt be anything worth taking without that). so the only idea they had, was to just delete one dodge. that is as simple, as low effort, as hard and as clueless as possible for sure. i will not deny. but that is why we need to give them better ideas. bc how it felt for me while talking to cmc about mirage was more like he turned into a stone and was just repeating, that it is unlikely that they will ever revert the second dodge based on current spec design. they dont want to see a mirage with 2 mc available. so we need alternative mechanical spec designes will lead to the same goal: to limit the uses of mc. but at least without all the bad side effects we get from the one dodge change. it didnt feel like we have any room to discuss that goal from anet itself. it seems to be cut in stone. and i just try to work around that together with you guys. more i cant do.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > The Mirror mechanic is garbage and most competent players avoid it, the utilities pretty much again not worth using, the whole thing boils down to the simple fact that Mirage is total kitten in general without MC. Actually without MC mirage isnt even an espec its core w crappy deceptions. IMO If Anet has big issues with MC then they need to do a total redesign on Mirage, BUT ohh wait they don't have the resources for full redesign, so they are looking for ways to "fix" Mirage, well then we need 2 dodges AND MC or just leave Mirage and stop teasing us!

> >

> > Seriously, maybe at this point Anet needs to explain to us what is wrong with MC and what they think would work to "limit its use" The way I see it MC was always VERY limited. What I mean is, MC has always been limited by energy pool and ones ability to apply an ambush when you dodge. MC is NOTHING but a dodge that opens up Ambush. Nothing else. Its really really dirt simple and I have never understood what the issue was with adjusting ambush damage. I really cannot help but question the basic competence of Anets "game designers" in general when I really think about this issue.

>

> yes i totally agree but sadly it will not work like that. i can just tell you what cmc clearly said to that topic (and what also was inbetween the lines more or less):

>

> **for them** mc is an unhealthy and broken mechanic, the ability to dodge while being stunned with endurance dodges should not exist in the first place, just as the ability to cover casts with endurance dodges should not exist either, at least not both in one dodge (obviously it was not cmc creating mirage for pof, dunno what happend to the devs creating mirage and why they dont explain the mechanics to cmc and why it is not as broken as cmc sees it, at least not on a class like mesmer and compared to what other classes still have and why they dont explain to cmc why the one dodge change is just unbearable).

>

> my questions about if it is possible to rework mc directly so it can lose at least one of these 2 "broken" abilities was negated. it seems to be not possible to rework mc like that. they also had no other idea how to deal with it (without deleting it completely, what ofc is not possible bc as you say mirage wouldnt be anything worth taking without that). so the only idea they had, was to just delete one dodge. that is as simple, as low effort, as hard and as clueless as possible for sure. i will not deny. but that is why we need to give them better ideas. bc how it felt for me while talking to cmc about mirage was more like he turned into a stone and was just repeating, that it is unlikely that they will ever revert the second dodge based on current spec design. they dont want to see a mirage with 2 mc available. so we need alternative mechanical spec designes will lead to the same goal: to limit the uses of mc. but at least without all the bad side effects we get from the one dodge change. it didnt feel like we have any room to discuss that goal from anet itself. it seems to be cut in stone. and i just try to work around that together with you guys. more i cant do.

 

Dodge while stunned is 100% toxic and should be removed. Mirage Cloak in General is strong, but really all it does with how it allows casting while evading is give mirage the sort of protective evasion frames you see on things like Thief Skills like Withdraw, Flanking Strike, Pistol Whip, Death Blossom, and Vault, but it's a bit more flexible in what you chose to apply evade frames to and it's on a significantly more fair and limited mechanic than evasion, whereas on thief you can spam things like Flanking Strike 3-4 times in a row.

 

Remove dodge while stunned and Mirage Cloak is largely fine imo.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

 

> Remove dodge while stunned and Mirage Cloak is largely fine imo.

 

yes that was my question but the answer from cmc was, that it is not possible to change mc like that. and that is where it starts to become complicated... sadly.

 

 

 

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

btw i will add an overview of the suggestions/ consepts you guys already added to the thread soon. i hope from that point we then can work to improve these consepts to the mirage one dodge topic or even add few more.

 

To give you guys a perspective and hopefully reduce the confusion about what is the topic for the first document. my plan is to make several and for that shorter and more focused documents to specific topics.

 

Doc 1. Mirage/ chrono mechanic issues. Alternative nerfs to mc instead the one dodge deletion, some minor chrono suggestions

Doc 2. Mesmer class balance issues. Core weapons skills and core traits, rework/ buff & nerf suggestions

Doc 3. we can find a topic together, from what you guys wrote until now i think the first 2 documents would cover most points you made until now

[mortrialus.3062]

I don't get how it's impossible to code that? When Mirage was able to do stuff like Channel the Temple of the Silent Storm buffs like Tranquility and Mirage Cloak they cut that. I know we're largely talking about PvP but there are multiple moments in the PvE story where a boss stuns you as part of the story and Mirage can't dodge while under these stun effects. I don't know what in the game code could possibly be preventing them from doing this I could probably implement it myself.

[dandamanno.4136]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I don't get how it's impossible to code that? When Mirage was able to do stuff like Channel the Temple of the Silent Storm buffs like Tranquility and Mirage Cloak they cut that. I know we're largely talking about PvP but there are multiple moments in the PvE story where a boss stuns you as part of the story and Mirage can't dodge while under these stun effects. I don't know what in the game code could possibly be preventing them from doing this I could probably implement it myself.

 

The only way it makes sense is if you substitute "not possible to change" with "too hard to change". Then it makes sense.

 

Seriously, they created the ability, they can't un-create or modify it? Nonsense. You can do anything with code, even *gasp* removing the ability to MC while stunned!

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I don't get how it's impossible to code that? When Mirage was able to do stuff like Channel the Temple of the Silent Storm buffs like Tranquility and Mirage Cloak they cut that. I know we're largely talking about PvP but there are multiple moments in the PvE story where a boss stuns you as part of the story and Mirage can't dodge while under these stun effects. I don't know what in the game code could possibly be preventing them from doing this I could probably implement it myself.

 

good question, i dunno tbh. i think the difference to pve bosses is, that the pve mechanic just temporary disables whole mc and normal dodges. that is not like deleting only half of the ability while keeping the other one and that not only temporary. dunno how they fixed the pvp channel stuff, maybe they made an interaaction that turns mc into a cast skill temporary for the channeltime. i think the key difference is that these are always only temporary solutions, maybe nothing that would work for only half of mc and for permanent purpose.

 

the nature of instant skills is both, you can use them while being stunned and you can use them while casting or channeling other skills. and removing only one of these abilities maybe would need a total rework of all instant skills in the game (what is ofc not wanted).

 

 

> @"dandamanno.4136" said:

 

> The only way it makes sense is if you substitute "not possible to change" with "too hard to change". Then it makes sense.

yep that, maybe not possible without reworking all instant skills in the game the same way, what is not wanted bc it would break way more skills to only balance one thing out.

 

[Moradorin.6217]

I think then leave it to CMC to demonstate wht can be done because it sounds like CmC is screwed in that he needs to fix mirage but seems to refuse to do anything that would fix it. What I mean is if they cant do a redsign they are stuck with MC end of story. He is looking for the impossible or for player endorcement of bad ideas for easy changes. I say let him struggle and fail then and we shall see a continuance of the loss of player base etc and ohh well glad I dont work for them I guess.

[Moradorin.6217]

Seems like th best thing to do is jump ship and let the damn game die.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> Seems like th best thing to do is jump ship and let the kitten game die.

 

aaah dont say that after i worked like the whole day today on the tentative overview/summary for the first doc :(

even tho i get both (also @"Lincolnbeard.1735" ) of your anger. im kinda angry myself tho. i but i havent given up until now.

[Moradorin.6217]

> @"Jazz.4639" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > Seems like th best thing to do is jump ship and let the kitten game die.

>

> aaah dont say that after i worked like the whole day today on the tentative overview/summary for the first doc :(

> even tho i get both (also @"Lincolnbeard.1735" ) of your anger. im kinda angry myself tho. i but i havent given up until now.

 

Im sorry, you rock man! I dont mean it. Im just frustrated and tired of thinking about Mirage and all the ways it could be fixed that wont be done because CMC or others either wont do what is needed or dont have the man hours to do it. I kinda wish that if they lack the man hours to properly fix it that they would see the wisdom of just leaving it as it is and maybe give it back its other dodge or up the vigor/endurance regen allot more or just leave it in its current gimpy state.

 

I think what needs to be done is IH needs to be made baseline and get replaced with a shatter buff or somthing in the GM list it needs 2 dodges back. Basically 2/25 should be reverted and done deal. Mesmer and Mirage damage and traits have been nerfed so many times in the last 2 years and many things removed/gutten and then literally left broken. Now they see the player base is suffering from these kinds of things and they obviously want to act before its too late, but somehow refuse to concede they have made mistakes and to stick to a narrow idea of Mirage (btw its obvious cmc just hates mirage/mesmer anyway). I dont know what to suggest other than what I already have which I guess wont be done.

 

Again Jazz you rock. I have admired you play for years. I will do what I can to help. Im just frustrated and not sure what if anything can be done when CmC/Anet seem so narrow minded.

[Moradorin.6217]

They could just delete Chrono and Mirage and buff core traits and damage back 2 years with double clones on scepter, staff, and shatters that do damage again. I could work with that too.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

@"Moradorin.6217" dont worry i get you, absolutly! <3

[Kylden Ar.3724]

I still think Mirage should get 2nd dodge back, and the Shatters should be changed into Ambush Triggers. Separate the defense from the offense.

 

But I also think defending on the walls in WvW should not be an instant death sentence, and that they should stop lying about Alliances.

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

**# tentative summary/ overview for document topic 1**

 

1. overall goal is to get the second dodge back bc the limitation on one dodge only makes big parts of the mirage mechanic not working as intended or totally useless (ambushes, ih). it also dumbs down the spec/ mc further instead increasing the skillneed what is anets claimed goal overall (so the one dodge change is even running against anets own claimed goal of reducing broken and forgiving mechanics and make the mc-based spec "more skilled").

2. we heard the complains from the community about too spammable and passive clone dmg, so for all suggested consepts there should 2 basic changes be considered to be done: core clone autoattacks should not have any additional condi dmg, they should have the same dmg than power clones. that will reduce the passive clone dmg from condi mesmers remarkable already (the missing dmg can be brought back to active skills of the mesmer, for ex. shatters and weaponskills) make sure that this is not a nerf but more a replacement of where the dmg comes from.

4. aside from concrete dmg/number nerfs or buff for mirage (which are not included in this document, this is up to anet to fine tune dmg from clone and mirage ambushes and other mirage skills so that it will be not up but also not op in the end). but:

it should be considered to in tendency lower the dmg on all weapons clone ambushes and give that dmg to the mesmers own ambush instead. ambushes including utility effects for clones (like daze on sword, might/vulnerability stacks on gs) can even run without any dmg or very little dmg on clone ambushes. give the mesmers own ambush the main dmg instead (that counts for power and condi weapons the same). turning ih into a minor baseline trait would then help to balance the dmg of mesmers and clone ambushes by a lot (see the sub-consept for ih as minor trait below). it also would lower the pressure of making clone ambushes stronger, so that ih a valuable major gm traitchoice worth to be picked (what is not the case for condi builds atm due to the overnerfs, for condi builds ih is a meeh pick atm). when it is a minor trait every build has access to anyway, then clone ambushes can just be a minor buff to the overall ambush mechanic (this minor ih buff can be utility or dmg or sustain based)

5. Chrono suggestions: since we got ip back already and now need time to test the viability of the spec this part will be a short one first. until now we only have 2-3 suggestions for chrono: condistacks get applied while the chrono is in active cs should be removed when cs ends (otherwise condiskills which get wasted into cs are less punished than power skills which are 100% neutralized after cs ends). also without any form of distortion chrono has a little survivability problem with condis applied during cs. also ppl ask to remove the abiltiy for targets to dodge the chrono shield phantasm spawn in case it is an unintended bug. i would also like to ask for turning shield 5 back into the state it was after hot release (can be casted into mesmers back on the target, no ground targeting), in current state shield is very unfun and clunky to use i think. if you worry abotu shield cc will be too strong then, consider lowering the movement speed of the cc wall, so the target has a bit more time to react.

6. link to the bug report list from lincoln or leonidrex (dont remember), pls consider to fix mesmer bugs listed here

 

Aside from those general balance suggestions the community also worked together to create a few consepts to reach anets goal of limiting the power of mc. anet did that with deleting one dodge but as explained that leads to a lot of unintended and negative side effects for parts of the mirage mechanic which cant be ignored, apart from making the whole dodge management more spammy but in same time also unfair limited compared to all 2 dodge classes (other classes have just as much or even more weapon-, f- and utility skills providing evades or other dmg negating mechanics, even with 2 dodges mirage got already "outdodged" by a lot of classes).

 

the following consepts should offer alternative ways (or at least gives a basis to develop own ideas/ consepts by anet) to balance out mc in a way it fits with anets goal to nerf mc while giving the second dodge back and without breaking its mechanics at any point.

 

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

**## Concept A (condi ambush rework)**

 

this concept is based on the idea to limit mc uses by creating harder desicion making/ higher costs for dodges. the underlying idea is, to create a higher need also for condi mirage to use some of the dodges only offensive to maximize the reward from ambushes. the idea is kinda simple: when mirage needs to dodge offensive to have enough impact overall (so when mirage needs to dodge offensive for the purpose of hitting the ambush reward only), then mirage has less dodges left to use it for the op mc abilities (less dodges left to dodge while being stunned for ex., so overall less dodges left for only defensive purposes). that is the way mc is balanced out in power mirage builds. power mirage weapons create a way higher need of dodging only for offensive ambush related purposes to maximize dmg of shatter/ weaponskill-combos and to active outplay opponents with utility effects (like daze) which need a different timing from only defensive dodges. as role models for the rework then served the sword and gs ambush design. for the purpose of creating the need to dodge more offensive, the ambushes with main purpose utility do a better job than ambushes with main purpose dmg, bc the utility effect needs to have a different timing to defensive dodges way more often, to react to and counter enemies moves in a fight.

 

the only kinda concrete examples for suggestions for new condi ambush design i could find in this thread until now:

 

> > - Scepter should be changed in general to have only one hit, not mulitple projectiles. Instead dmg it could provide a 1/2 sec immob on an well animated projectile with balanced travel speed and cast time (comparable to Engi rifle immob skill), while clones get a weaker version of 1/4 or 1/8 immob on hit. That can be comboed before going for a scepter 3 cast to secure it will hit a good part of the cast before the target can dodge without using a condi remove. It would fit to the weaponstyle and give incentives to combo with other weapon- and shatter skills. Another possibility would be chill or cripple (here maybe with a bit of condi dmg on the Mesmers own ambush in addition because those 2 utlitiy condis are weaker than immob).

> > - Axe could get a boni to condition dmg stat for x seconds (not too long, comparable to the might/ vulnstack duration on gs, means short only to prepare a burst not to make a perma buff that would be passive again), aside from a low dmg application on the Mesmers own ambush, while clones get the weaker version of only stacking condi dmg stat boni (no condi application by themself) for a short duration. That would give the incentive and need to combo ambushes to prepare an axe 3 shatter burst. Other posibility would be to add a more utilitiy based non dmg condi just like i descibed for scepter before.

> > - Staff ambush could get a boni in terms of condition duration for x seconds (weaker version on clones, no dmg on clones) on the ambush aside from a low dmg application only on the Mesmers ambush. Alternative adding a non dmg utility condition that fits the staff playstyle or some defensive effect as Quadox suggested (maybe not reflect considering Mesmer already has such a dodge trait).

 

 

essential seems to be, that scepter turns into a single hit skill. the single hit can ofc include more condistacks then a single projectile hit does have now. also a little rebuff to sharper images trait could be considered in case some of the nerfs were directed to the synergy from this trait to scepter ambushes.

 

this concept can have ih as baseline or not. but it would make the whole rework much easier just as it makes balancing mesmers and clone ambushes power lvl way easier. so for this conept adding the sub consept (ih becoming a minor trait, see below) is by far preferable.

 

the amount of condi and power dmg just as the effectduration the mirage and its clones can do with their ambushes ofc then need to be fine tuned to neither be op nor up with 2 dodges back and with ih being a minor. that is then up to anet.

 

there are also other suggestions like from @"Lincolnbeard.1735" linked older thread where it was suggested to replace torment with bleeding on ambushes. pls feel free to bring that up here in the thread again (not just linking it, no one will read it except me then) for further brainstorming.

 

_note from me to the community: maybe we can find other alternatives and more concrete examples for how condi ambushes could look like exactly (i will add my opinion/suggestions to that later)._

[dubidubidubidu.5308]

**## Concept B (separate ambush mechanic from dodges/ mc from endurance dodges):**

 

goal of this concept is to relink the ambush window activation (just as the mc +ambush activation on ih clones) from dodges and put it into a new button (for ex. a new f5 for mirage). pressing that new button will activate the ambush window on the mesmers autoattack (just as it is now) while it will make ih clones immediately start to use mc and cast the ambush (just as it is now when using the dodge button with ih traited).

with that, ambush rewards become more active bc they are not hidden behind the dodges you also need to use for defensive purposes. passive ambush activation as side effect from simple attack evasion will be 100% deleted that way.

to limit the usage of mc, this concept now gives us the possibility to deal with mc more independently from the ambush/ ih mechanic.

 

for the refill mechanic of that new ambush button were 2 alternatives suggested until now:

 

viquing wants it to refill when the mirage uses an endurance dodge (up to max 2 charges can be preserved). this way the ambushes will still have some relation to the dodges (what is kinda the nature of mirage), so the mirage still can dodge offensive when needed to refill one ambush charge when needed and it will make vigor having an effect on how fast the ambush button will recharge the 2 uses.

this variant needs to give mirage 2 dodges back but now we can turn mirage endurance dodges back into normal dodges and only give mc to the mirage by mirrors. (notice: ih clones ofc keep the mc+ambush ability for each f5 use and for each mirror the mirage consumes). this way a mirage also will not be able to dodge while being stunned anymore (you cannot run into a mirror when stunned) and only can cover casts with mirrors not with endurance dodges anymore.

 

bravan suggested an ammo skill mechanic (also with max 2 charges) which has zero link to the dodges anymore, it will refill automatically based on the average refill speed of endurance dodges. this variant allows to keep mirage with only one dodge (bc now it will at least not prevent the ambush mechanic from being usable and useful for condi and power builds), but it will not be affected by vigor and the 100% link-lose to dodges deletes a bit of mirages options to have an active impact on the refill rate. while keeping one dodge only for mirage, additionally the endurance bar could be changed to 75 instead 50% endurance, so mirage can at least bunker a bit of endurance reggen.

 

both variants can live without a mechanical condi ambush rework. maybe little fine tuning to power and condi dmg (preferable on clones ambushes and less on mesmers own ambushes) for all weapons are needed when mirage gets a 2-dodge-amount-of-ambushes on f5 back.

 

both variants can go with ih being baseline or not.

 

both variants could be improved by improving the mirror mechanic (cmc mentioned that they are thinking about improving mirrors a bit), for all other consepts mirrors can stay as they are even tho a little improvement would still be appreciated.

 

_note from me: i prefer viquings variant here_