Aeolus.3615 Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 IMO druid needs the same effect like ventari rev, u can only boost outgoing heals, and it could be a decent support bruiser. slightly better small directs heals on staff skills, slightly condi, maybe using celestias stats could be decent with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 > @"senki.1046" said: > So with the new druid heal buffs, are there any chances, they are good enough as support in wvw squads? or still trash? Trash. Find something else to support your teams with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > awful low-effort zero-impact Rangers in WvW. How is this not available on a T-Shirt yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > No. > > The core problem was not the healing of CA. > > Its literally everything but. > > Trash Weapons. > Trash Utility skills. > Trash healing outside CA. > > If Druid could be in CA permanent, then we could start a debate. This guy seems to be the only one on this thread that has even played heal druid in Zerg play Until they change CA and it’s gated ability to heal, it simply isn’t going to cut into the meta at all ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > No. > > > > The core problem was not the healing of CA. > > > > Its literally everything but. > > > > Trash Weapons. > > Trash Utility skills. > > Trash healing outside CA. > > > > If Druid could be in CA permanent, then we could start a debate. > > This guy seems to be the only one on this thread that has even played heal druid in Zerg play > > Until they change CA and it’s gated ability to heal, it simply isn’t going to cut into the meta at all ever. Support and Healing is my favorite. I would love to play a new Build but every time i tried Druid i changed to something else like a day after. Its in a sad state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 I tell you all what... after tommorow's balance path drops we all take a couple days and come up with a reasonable, fun support druid build, test it out for a few hours (with Arc on) in reasonable 10-50 person groups. Then we come back, share our builds and results with data and see just how it stacked up in whatever support we chose to give it. "here's how much might and vigor it can generate ... here's how Since we never have the healing numbers from Arc anyways and it will never compete at top healing end with Tempest or Ventari Rev anyways, and we can agree that healing itself is not support's primary role anyways in wvw. Support is measured by what else it brings. So we can say if we trait it for Boon Uptime we see how it stacked up against other classes. Maybe together we come back with something cool and useful leveraging each other's ideas.... or we have actual numbers showing Druid is crap. eh.... maybe I will just go do that now. I've dumped on wvw ranger long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > ... and we can agree that healing itself is not support's primary role anyways in wvw. Support is measured by what else it brings. I don’t get why people say this. There is no rational explanation for it at all. The mechanics in this game can be broken down into 2 major components. That’s Healing and Damage (and there is a third but it’s mostly irrelevant here) Even effects like boons translate into a healing component. As an example, Aegis might say “block on attack” but blocking an attack is the same as healing for that damage, before it happens. Protection can be broken down similarly. So everything on these classes comes down to how much they can heal, and how well they can heal. It’s only hybrid classes that actually care about the other component of damage such as being able to grant might to allies. If you want to consider that as support, go head...but a damage dealer can do that job...only YOU as a healer can pump out big healing numbers, and that’s kinda why you are there. Anyway I’ve already tested Druid a long time ago. And like Dan Alacedo said, the changes won’t do much of anything. It’s not a numbers problem with Druid healing. It’s the gated nature of CA and it’s terrible weapons and utilities outside of CA that basically make it useless as a HEALER for 10-20 seconds... In any Zerg fight, 10-20 seconds of being useless is a death sentence. You need to be useful and able to react 100% of the time, which is why Tempest, firebrands and scrappers work so well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > ... and we can agree that healing itself is not support's primary role anyways in wvw. Support is measured by what else it brings. > > I don’t get why people say this. There is no rational explanation for it at all. > > The mechanics in this game can be broken down into 2 major components. That’s Healing and Damage (and there is a third but it’s mostly irrelevant here) > > Even effects like boons translate into a healing component. As an example, Aegis might say “block on attack” but blocking an attack is the same as healing for that damage, before it happens. Protection can be broken down similarly. > > So everything on these classes comes down to how much they can heal, and how well they can heal. It’s only hybrid classes that actually care about the other component of damage such as being able to grant might to allies. If you want to consider that as support, go head...but a damage dealer can do that job...only YOU as a healer can pump out big healing numbers, and that’s kinda why you are there. > > Anyway I’ve already tested Druid a long time ago. And like Dan Alacedo said, the changes won’t do much of anything. It’s not a numbers problem with Druid healing. It’s the gated nature of CA and it’s terrible weapons and utilities outside of CA that basically make it useless as a HEALER for 10-20 seconds... > > In any Zerg fight, 10-20 seconds of being useless is a death sentence. You need to be useful and able to react 100% of the time, which is why Tempest, firebrands and scrappers work so well... its 2020 and people still belive best and stronger direct/regen healer is ministrells FB's. (i remember a discussion that people tough ministrel healing output was bigger than clerics stats in any other class for example just cause ministrel is meta for suport). Healer and support are somewhat 2 diferent roles, some are stronger healers others are good at support like FB, wich can five more smaller heals towards blocks and have quite some number of other tools for support alies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 You can play an immobilize druid. with healing and condi cleanse on the side. But you better do it in a squad/guild group that actually wants you to play it. Druid has way too many issues with its mediocre staff, mediocre glyphs, lack of party utility and traits (from both core ranger and druid itself) compared to the meta classes to be something you want to stack multiple of in a zerg. CA itself isn't really an issue, except from CA1 which is one of the clunkiest skills in the game, the issue is the lack of everything compared to the other classes (except immob) when not in CA. If niche situations was a reason to rework gyros into wells which are now an important part of scrapper's utility, why on earth can't Anet just get on with it and make the druid glyphs actually useful. They barely see any use in any game mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RisenHowl.2419 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > ... and we can agree that healing itself is not support's primary role anyways in wvw. Support is measured by what else it brings. > > > > I don’t get why people say this. There is no rational explanation for it at all. > > > > The mechanics in this game can be broken down into 2 major components. That’s Healing and Damage (and there is a third but it’s mostly irrelevant here) > > > > Even effects like boons translate into a healing component. As an example, Aegis might say “block on attack” but blocking an attack is the same as healing for that damage, before it happens. Protection can be broken down similarly. > > > > So everything on these classes comes down to how much they can heal, and how well they can heal. It’s only hybrid classes that actually care about the other component of damage such as being able to grant might to allies. If you want to consider that as support, go head...but a damage dealer can do that job...only YOU as a healer can pump out big healing numbers, and that’s kinda why you are there. > > > > Anyway I’ve already tested Druid a long time ago. And like Dan Alacedo said, the changes won’t do much of anything. It’s not a numbers problem with Druid healing. It’s the gated nature of CA and it’s terrible weapons and utilities outside of CA that basically make it useless as a HEALER for 10-20 seconds... > > > > In any Zerg fight, 10-20 seconds of being useless is a death sentence. You need to be useful and able to react 100% of the time, which is why Tempest, firebrands and scrappers work so well... > > its 2020 and people still belive best and stronger direct/regen healer is ministrells FB's. (i remember a discussion that people tough ministrel healing output was bigger than clerics stats in any other class for example just cause ministrel is meta for suport). > > Healer and support are somewhat 2 diferent roles, some are stronger healers others are good at support like FB, wich can five more smaller heals towards blocks and have quite some number of other tools for support alies. This shit cracks me up, people playing fb for the healing. A good fb puts out half to a third the healing a scrapper does in the same time period lol you bring fb for easy access to every boon except alacrity, especially aegis and stab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Besetment.9187" said: > WvW squad play is dominated by selfless builds that share tonnes of buffs to allies and either remove or nullify those same buffs from enemies while moving. Mindcircus did a pretty good breakdown. Firebrand is meta because it shares stability and can provide a little bit of everything else (a little too well) - healing, resistance, projectile reflection, cleanse, boon conversion, block and can reliably share pretty much every boon in the game except alacrity. > > Heal Tempest is a top healer but doesn't share offensive buffs like Rev and doesn't provide stability like Firebrand. It can cleanse but nowhere near the rate of Scrappers and every time a Scrapper cleanses, they convert those condis into boons so its just better. That scrappers also provide damage redirection, high superspeed uptime and stealth engage means it not even a contest really. I'm trying to think of what buffs or redesign Druid would have to get to replace a Firebrand, Scrapper or even Tempest, and I'm drawing a blank. there is one thing that tempest brings: auras Auras can not be stripped, nor corrupted. All the boons the scrapper put on you? They just turned to condis. But your ten men magnetic aura is still up, screwing the other team over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Xv.8705 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > @"God.2708" said: > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > About the elite glyph. > > > > > > Standing still for 1 second because of imob is a death sentence in most zerg fights. > > > > > > Who thought that standing still for 7 seconds is a good idea? > > > > This probably speaks to a lot of things, but you do not actually have to stand still in order to channel it. It's a moving channel akin to warriors winds of disenchantment, except on an unmoving location. > > > > Quite honestly it is one of the strongest skills in WvW all things considered, Huge Radius, Huge Range, Absurd effects (Seriously, look at what it does both in CA and Out), on 10 Targets. It not being enough to make druids playable says a lot about what sort of position druids are in. > > Are you sure you can walk while channeling?. > > Pretty sure you cant but i will test it when i get home. > > Yes it can be channeled while moving. Its really good in the non CA form because of condi immunity. Its just difficult to use in Wvw. You can try to time it for when a driver wants to stop and bomb at their feet during a push or when ramming gates where no ones moving. Otherwise most combat is to mobile and you will hardly get any effect out of it. If it was a mobile field around the druid....might be a tad strong. I feel like the pet is of no use to druid and it kinda needs the soulbeast no pet route. Channel spirits or some crap for better healing/cleanse/buff options in your F skills maybe. Sun spirit- cleansing and damage boons Stone Spirit- Aegis +something maybe reflect? Frost Spirit- inc damage reduction buff and healing Storm Spirit- superspeed? quickness? Nature Spirit-stability and resistance? Staff tweaks?- Idk wtf to do with the auto Astral whisp- Summon a whisp(s) around you that heals allies and cleanses a condition as it passes through them Ancestral Grace- This probably just needs the evade back and protection to allies instead of pet. Maybe heal allies you travel through? Vine Surge-Send forth vines that immobilize enemies and cleanse conditions from allies. Heal allies for each condition removed. Sublime Conversion- I think this needs some kind of flip over skill. Don't know what would be better a big heal, chunky cleanse, or some kind of aoe boon application like stab or resistance? I have tried to make druid work in wvw on many occasions but it is just so outclassed by what the others bring to the table...( I don't count the immob meme build) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dediggefedde.4961 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Celestial avatar effects were based on heal and CC, plus a little cleanse, but far to low compared to other classes. Especially with the buildup, charging the avatar and using its energy, while ele, engi, guard, and rev don't have such a strong limitation. Even rev only has to wait a bit for energy to come back. It would be fair if heal-numbers would be at least tripled everywhere except PvE Raids. If spirits would be turned into wells (scrapper-dejavu) it might an interesting mechanic for WvW, but still mostly nice-to-have. In my opinion, soulbeast is a missed zerg-support oportunity. Its stances have a very unique and desirable effect for WvW-zergs. All not corruptable, overriding movement-conditions (even immo!), gives stability and 30% dmg reduction (dolyak), prolonging boon durations by 60% (moa), pulsing 2cleanses/s + heal/cleanse (bear)... they already have the pack-leader trait to share stances to others. So, at first glance, one has to wonder why there isn't at least one alpha-soulbeast that counters immo-druids for his group, can cause similar immo itself, and prolong everyone's boons. The problem is ally-stance-uptime. 3s dolyak stance for allies with 30s CD is hardly noticeable. The ideal would probably be 5s at 15s CD or something around 30% uptime. At the moment nobody really uses pack-leader trait and immo-druid is mostly "countered" by stacking healscrappers or resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 > @"Dediggefedde.4961" said: > Celestial avatar effects were based on heal and CC, plus a little cleanse, but far to low compared to other classes. > Especially with the buildup, charging the avatar and using its energy, while ele, engi, guard, and rev don't have such a strong limitation. Even rev only has to wait a bit for energy to come back. It would be fair if heal-numbers would be at least tripled everywhere except PvE Raids. > If spirits would be turned into wells (scrapper-dejavu) it might an interesting mechanic for WvW, but still mostly nice-to-have. > > In my opinion, soulbeast is a missed zerg-support oportunity. > Its stances have a very unique and desirable effect for WvW-zergs. All not corruptable, overriding movement-conditions (even immo!), gives stability and 30% dmg reduction (dolyak), prolonging boon durations by 60% (moa), pulsing 2cleanses/s + heal/cleanse (bear)... they already have the pack-leader trait to share stances to others. So, at first glance, one has to wonder why there isn't at least one alpha-soulbeast that counters immo-druids for his group, can cause similar immo itself, and prolong everyone's boons. > The problem is ally-stance-uptime. 3s dolyak stance for allies with 30s CD is hardly noticeable. The ideal would probably be 5s at 15s CD or something around 30% uptime. > At the moment nobody really uses pack-leader trait and immo-druid is mostly "countered" by stacking healscrappers or resistance. Celestial avatar IMO should work like the Gw1 dervish forms :S but that maybe could be ending ebing to strong? Energy would measure the outgoing heals value. The more u heal those values would go down, more like a mana pool. While not in Celestial avatar that pool would fill faster, while on CA pool would take longer to go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider.7849 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 > @"Lightning Xv.8705" said: > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > > About the elite glyph. > > > > > > > > Standing still for 1 second because of imob is a death sentence in most zerg fights. > > > > > > > > Who thought that standing still for 7 seconds is a good idea? > > > > > > This probably speaks to a lot of things, but you do not actually have to stand still in order to channel it. It's a moving channel akin to warriors winds of disenchantment, except on an unmoving location. > > > > > > Quite honestly it is one of the strongest skills in WvW all things considered, Huge Radius, Huge Range, Absurd effects (Seriously, look at what it does both in CA and Out), on 10 Targets. It not being enough to make druids playable says a lot about what sort of position druids are in. > > > > Are you sure you can walk while channeling?. > > > > Pretty sure you cant but i will test it when i get home. > > > > > > Yes it can be channeled while moving. Its really good in the non CA form because of condi immunity. Its just difficult to use in Wvw. You can try to time it for when a driver wants to stop and bomb at their feet during a push or when ramming gates where no ones moving. Otherwise most combat is to mobile and you will hardly get any effect out of it. If it was a mobile field around the druid....might be a tad strong. > > I feel like the pet is of no use to druid and it kinda needs the soulbeast no pet route. Channel spirits or some kitten for better healing/cleanse/buff options in your F skills maybe. > > Sun spirit- cleansing and damage boons > Stone Spirit- Aegis +something maybe reflect? > Frost Spirit- inc damage reduction buff and healing > Storm Spirit- superspeed? quickness? > Nature Spirit-stability and resistance? > > Staff tweaks?- > > Idk kitten to do with the auto > Astral whisp- Summon a whisp(s) around you that heals allies and cleanses a condition as it passes through them > Ancestral Grace- This probably just needs the evade back and protection to allies instead of pet. Maybe heal allies you travel through? > Vine Surge-Send forth vines that immobilize enemies and cleanse conditions from allies. Heal allies for each condition removed. > Sublime Conversion- I think this needs some kind of flip over skill. Don't know what would be better a big heal, chunky cleanse, or some kind of aoe boon application like stab or resistance? > > I have tried to make druid work in wvw on many occasions but it is just so outclassed by what the others bring to the table...( I don't count the immob meme build) > Just want to comment on a few things here, spirits need to be seperate from druid talks because they are a core ranger ability - not exclusive to druid. Instead the focus should be on improving glyphs. As for staff: I agree the evade needs to be returned to staff 3. Staff 4 doesn't need healing on conditions cleansed when used on allies. Why? Because it's never used on allies (doesn't apply to self either), the cast time takes too long to be of much use to them, instead it's used primarily to immob a fleeing opponent or create distance when you need to create a gap [aiming the vine behind your character at chasing opponent(s)]. Staff 5 is fine as is. Staff 2 needs a total rework as it's quite literally the worst weapon skill in the entire game. Slapping on some condi cleanse would do nothing to improve druid overall. Damaging conditions should be added to staff - I feel that poison would do well and would fit thematically with both the weapon and druid - as well as opening up druid to more builds OR it would need to be significantly buffed in its ability to support a group. That's my 2 cents on playing this class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 > @"Lightning Xv.8705" said: > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > @"God.2708" said: > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > > > About the elite glyph. > > > > > > > > Standing still for 1 second because of imob is a death sentence in most zerg fights. > > > > > > > > Who thought that standing still for 7 seconds is a good idea? > > > > > > This probably speaks to a lot of things, but you do not actually have to stand still in order to channel it. It's a moving channel akin to warriors winds of disenchantment, except on an unmoving location. > > > > > > Quite honestly it is one of the strongest skills in WvW all things considered, Huge Radius, Huge Range, Absurd effects (Seriously, look at what it does both in CA and Out), on 10 Targets. It not being enough to make druids playable says a lot about what sort of position druids are in. > > > > Are you sure you can walk while channeling?. > > > > Pretty sure you cant but i will test it when i get home. > > > > > > Yes it can be channeled while moving. Its really good in the non CA form because of condi immunity. Its just difficult to use in Wvw. You can try to time it for when a driver wants to stop and bomb at their feet during a push or when ramming gates where no ones moving. Otherwise most combat is to mobile and you will hardly get any effect out of it. If it was a mobile field around the druid....might be a tad strong. > > I feel like the pet is of no use to druid and it kinda needs the soulbeast no pet route. Channel spirits or some kitten for better healing/cleanse/buff options in your F skills maybe. > > Sun spirit- cleansing and damage boons > Stone Spirit- Aegis +something maybe reflect? > Frost Spirit- inc damage reduction buff and healing > Storm Spirit- superspeed? quickness? > Nature Spirit-stability and resistance? > > Staff tweaks?- > > Idk kitten to do with the auto > Astral whisp- Summon a whisp(s) around you that heals allies and cleanses a condition as it passes through them > Ancestral Grace- This probably just needs the evade back and protection to allies instead of pet. Maybe heal allies you travel through? > Vine Surge-Send forth vines that immobilize enemies and cleanse conditions from allies. Heal allies for each condition removed. > Sublime Conversion- I think this needs some kind of flip over skill. Don't know what would be better a big heal, chunky cleanse, or some kind of aoe boon application like stab or resistance? > > I have tried to make druid work in wvw on many occasions but it is just so outclassed by what the others bring to the table...( I don't count the immob meme build) > Staff: 1. Auto can now target allies. (Tf2 medi gun) 2. Is now a groundtarget. 3. Evade back 4. Is ok. 5. Field bigger and longer. Pulses Aoe Regen and heal in a the area when a projectile is absorbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talindra.4958 Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 I tested it very briefly it's not bad in terms of condition cleans and heal it does extra immo and entangle with traits and utilities, but lack of stab off CA. Druid can put 3 + water fields (inc water trap) and 6 blasts (? from memory with wh oh) .. I'd say scrap +fb still op in sustain for squad run. If they really want druid to join the sustain team.. they need to nerf fb and scrapper which is going to make many ppl upset ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nthmetal.9652 Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 It's not about making ppl upset. People will get over it, and those that don't have already resigned from the game anyway. DIstributing the boons and buffs more around seems like a great way to move forward, hopefully we will see more of that. It's that line of thinking, which encourages teamplay and diversity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning Xv.8705 Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 > @"Strider.7849" said: > Just want to comment on a few things here, spirits need to be seperate from druid talks because they are a core ranger ability - not exclusive to druid. Instead the focus should be on improving glyphs. > Damaging conditions should be added to staff - I feel that poison would do well and would fit thematically with both the weapon and druid - as well as opening up druid to more builds OR it would need to be significantly buffed in its ability to support a group. That's my 2 cents on playing this class. I'm not talking utility bar spirits. I am talking about making druid akin to rev, ditch the pet that dies in larger scale fights and channel 1 or 2 spirits for support focused F keys. This way we aren't trying to add more support into core ranger weps that would easily make other builds broken. Bringing it back full circle with more nerfs. The last thing druid needs is more condi. Its already a potent roamer. We don't need to bring it back to hot launch level of roaming troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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