krmatth.3904 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 So I’m going to retread a post I made in 2018 that is very similar to this discussion. My point at the time was to try and start a discussion on what “GW3” could/should look like. The comments you all have made are along the same lines as what I was looking for in discussion (but never really got). Here’s my retread FWIW: Let's have some fun for a change. I play mainly WVW and, to be honest, I've grown tired of the debate on how to fix that mode. But that debate got me thinking that a solution that addresses only WVW and not the whole game may not be best for the longevity of the Guild Wars franchise. Why can't we have something that integrates all the modes into a Guild-centric game reflective of the franchise name "GUILD WARS?" What would the Guild Wars franchise look like if Arena Net decided to use the mechanics and maps currently found in GW2 and introduced an economy and strategy system that rewarded Guilds and Alliances and not just individuals? Want the best gear? Want to spend less for "necessities" like food and utilities? Want to waypoint from one map to another with less cost than other people? Join a guild, start a guild, form an alliance between guilds. The basic structure underlying GW2 is strong enough that making changes to the economy and rewards system could produce an entirely new game. The intent of this post was twofold: generate ideas that would foster the growth of the Guild as the center of the game community (now I don't want my WVW server back so much) and identify ideas that would reward guilds who are successful across the spectrum of the game and not just in one mode. So, what would that look like? What follows are my ideas only. I would love to hear what others in the GW2 community, would/could be looking for in GW3 or a future "realignment" of GW2 or in GW3. There are several boundaries I'd ask everyone to stay within: Existing GW2 maps are to be used (all maps...open world PVE, WVW, EOTM) Existing GW2 game modes (open world PVE, WVW, and PVP) must be integrated into one "rewards" structure GW2 game mechanics such as use of skills and NPC interactions will not be changed So, to start things off, here's what I was thinking: This version of the game would be focused on guild level performance during "seasons" which run as described below -- Each season is three weeks long -- There is a one week "intermission" between each season Guilds will be grouped into size/experience classes based on -- Number of Guild Members -- Participation rates in all modes (PVE, WVW, PVP) -- Guild size will be limited to 200...Yes, decisions will have to be made on who stays and who goes Players can be in multiple Guilds but only play in one Guild per size/experience class at a time -- I'm in a guild that is 500 strong, does WVW, has multiple PVP teams, and does world events - my large guild -- I'm also in a 50 person Guild that is PVE only - my small guild -- Players must declare/change their play guilds during the intermission week only Guilds will receive an overall Guild Score at the conclusion of each "season" -- PVE Component --- World Events participation score --- Map Completion --- Fractal's Accomplished --- Dungeons Completed --- Raids Completed --- Life Skills Accomplished ---- Gathering ---- Lumbering ---- Mining --- Guild Missions Completed -- WVW Component --- Participation -- PVP Component --- ??? Need help here as I don't/have never PVP'd -- GVG Component --- Guilds can declare war on another guild but that declaration must be accepted to be in effect ---- Makes each member of each guild "vulnerable" to the other guilds members across each map/mode --- War makes players of each guild vulnerable to each other on any map (PVE, WVW, EOTM) ---- Large scale combat - Scheduled GVG, Raids on "hostile" Guild Maps ----- Waypoints can be used by both... ---- Small scale combat - 1 v 1/some v some on a non WVW/EOTM Map --- A guild declining a GVG challenge will pay a fine to the declaring guild...amount TBD Alliances between guilds would be encouraged and rewarded -- A lead guild will form and manage each alliance --- Build alliances based on proficiencies of all guilds...PVE, PVP, WVW --- Lead guild negotiates terms with other guilds...will require a new user interface to feed score/reward algorithms ---- Share of revenue streams from guild controlled maps ---- Transfer of guild items between guilds (can't build WVW siege, your partners can transfer/sell some to you) ---- Schedules/plans for WVW commanders, Raid leaders, crafting needs, etc. -- The size of an Alliance must somehow be "controlled" to promote competitiveness --- Maybe award bonus points for an alliance that is comprised of multiple small guilds more than one of large guilds -- The Guild Scores of alliance members would be factored into the overall end Guild Score of individual guilds --- I'm not sure what that algorithm would consist of but it's needed ---- An additive score may give a large alliance too much control of everything and not promote competitiveness ---- Something that amalgamates inversely proportional to Guild size is interesting ----- The smaller the guild the more their guild score counts for the larger guilds in the alliance individual score ----- This could compel fight guilds to seek alliance with smaller PVE guilds (crafters/gatherers/Raiders/etc.) The one week "intermission" period between seasons exists to: -- Allow Anet time to process which guilds control which maps -- Allow guilds to change/form alliances for next season Guilds "bid" for control of one existing PVE map -- Map control based on overall Guild Score achieved during the last "season" -- Maps with "World Events" more desirable than those with no "World Events" --- Collect a fee when non guild member enters map through portal from another map - transfer fee --- Collect % of fee when waypoints used to access world events like Shatterer/Tequatle/etc -- Map control starts at reset for the start of the next "season" -- Owning Guild receives a percentage of funds collected when marketplace/sales point NPC's used --- Food/Utilities (for example) cost less in a map your own guild owns --- Emptying your bags on a map your guild doesn't own gives percentage of sale to owning guild -- Guilds can designate their maps PVP or PVE for the period they own the map (this might not go over well) --- PVP map is open warfare but reduces the opportunity for collecting fees --- PVE map is fewer opportunities for fights but more opportunity for collecting fees --- ANET WORK: mark maps in some manner to indicate status to everyone prior to entering -- Cultural cities (Lions Arch, Divinity's Reach, Etc.) count as a map and are available for guild control Guilds must be in existence for two seasons before they may bid on control of a map "REVENUE" STREAMS -- PVE --- Marketplace (MP) ---- Ten percent (10%) of each sale within a map goes to the guild storage coffer ---- Alliance guild members are not charged the additional fee --- NPC's ---- Ten percent (10%) of each sale within a map goes to the guild storage coffer ---- Alliance guild members are not charged the additional fee --- Cultural Vendors ---- Ten percent of each purchase is converted into some credit guilds can spend for guild specific items ---- Alliance guild members are not charged the additional fee --- Waypoints ---- All Waypoint fees go the guild controlling the map at the time of the transit ---- Alliance guild members transport for free across Alliance controlled maps --- Map Portals ---- Entrance to map your guild doesn't control will require payment of an entry fee (TBD) to the controlling guild ---- Alliance guild members are granted free entry into Alliance controlled maps -- WVW --- MP vendors send ten percent (10%) of each sale to guild having highest score on that map at the time of the sale --- NPC's send ten percent (10%) of each sale to guild having highest score on that map at the time of the sale -- PVP --- ??? Need help here as I don't/have never PVP'd -- GVG --- Each guild in a GVG situation contributes gold from their guild fund/storage (cost TBD) to the reward kitty --- Winner take all --- Losing guild pays a doubled fee for using waypoints within the winning guilds maps for that season --- Losing guild pays a doubled fee for entering the winning guilds maps for that season REWARDS -- Guild Store --- Guild members procure "better" stuff here ---- Weapons ---- Armor --- Guilds procure stuff here that makes them better at guild things across the modes ---- Siege ---- Buffs and Boons --- Purchase additional Guild Content ---- Access/early access to new Raid Wings ---- Access/early access to new and/or higher level Dungeons and Fractals -- Crafting --- Guilds will be able to craft items and place those they deem "excess" up for sale on the Guild Market Place --- Individuals will be able to craft items and place them onto the Market Place ---- A fifteen percent (15%) placement fee is charged at time of each sale, fee going to the member's guilds fund ---- Should a player not belong to a guild, the 15% fee goes to guild that controls the map where the sale occurs I would love the game to become one where "success" is determined by those guilds that are proficient across all modes and know how to cooperate with other guilds. I would not desire seeing one where one guild could become so large that it could dominate on it's own. I'm not sure where the cutoff line on size should be but I believe there needs to be one. To rise to the top, a guild would need to be adept at both strategy and button mashing. As I said above, my main play mode is WVW. I thought about placing this in the WVW forum but I think that people who participate in other modes would have to make contributions for this discussion to be fun. I don't want to put a post in every forum. So, if anyone thinks this thread is worthy, please let others know it's active (big assumption) in this area. My apologies if this has been done before (I haven't seen that/those posts). Thanks for reading and let's hear your ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. > > After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. > > PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. This is just an assumption :) They can still pve in the non pk instances as normal. Maybe only those who enjoy pk will risk. Anything could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. > > > > After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. > > > > PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. > > This is just an assumption :) > > They can still pve in the non pk instances as normal. Maybe only those who enjoy pk will risk. Anything could happen. > No, it's not an "assumption. It's a fact with GW2 players were told no forced pvp in pve, and would quit in droves... Just so you can gank players who don't care about pvp. And if you are having a hard time in wvw, or are bored, then take a break and go play ganker in a game that has it. And you are obviously not absorbing clear Developer statements... “The overall design for Guild Wars 2 does not support fully open world PvP and it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible.". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. > > > > After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. > > > > PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. > > This is just an assumption :) > > They can still pve in the non pk instances as normal. Maybe only those who enjoy pk will risk. Anything could happen. > Anything can happen. This forum could turn into a doorway into another dimension. But it's not very likely. This game, and Guild Wars 1 as well, were designed specifically to keep PvP and PvE seperated. What makes you think it could happen? The problem is, a lot of casual players don't come to forums or reddit. They wouldn't know that they could be killed by players until it happens. And if it happens after all this time, some of those players will leave. You can say this is an opinion but every MMO I've played that has PvE and PvP open world servers has far more PvE open world servers than PVP. There's a reason for this. People who PvP think it's what the game is about, predominantly. But I guarantee you less than 50% of the population consider themselves PvPers. You'd be pissing off more than 50% of the population. The last stats we got were from Mike O who said bout 10% of the playerbase predominantly PvPs, about 30% predominantly WvW and and about 60% predominatly PvE. To add to that, if you're built to surviev, like many WvW players are, you'll be able to take down a whole lot of PvE players, without much challenge, because they're not built for that. It's just a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. > > > > > > After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. > > > > > > PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. > > > > This is just an assumption :) > > > > They can still pve in the non pk instances as normal. Maybe only those who enjoy pk will risk. Anything could happen. > > > > No, it's not an "assumption. It's a fact with GW2 players were told no forced pvp in pve, and would quit in droves... Just so you can gank players who don't care about pvp. And if you are having a hard time in wvw, or are bored, then take a break and go play ganker in a game that has it. > > And you are obviously not absorbing clear Developer statements... “The overall design for Guild Wars 2 does not support fully open world PvP and it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible.". > No. The only factual thing now is pve has no pk instance. And wvw or spvp or custume fights and that new living story boss if you fail things turn to fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. > > > > > > After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. > > > > > > PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. > > > > This is just an assumption :) > > > > They can still pve in the non pk instances as normal. Maybe only those who enjoy pk will risk. Anything could happen. > > > > Anything can happen. This forum could turn into a doorway into another dimension. But it's not very likely. This game, and Guild Wars 1 as well, were designed specifically to keep PvP and PvE seperated. What makes you think it could happen? > > The problem is, a lot of casual players don't come to forums or reddit. They wouldn't know that they could be killed by players until it happens. And if it happens after all this time, some of those players will leave. You can say this is an opinion but every MMO I've played that has PvE and PvP open world servers has far more PvE open world servers than PVP. There's a reason for this. > > People who PvP think it's what the game is about, predominantly. But I guarantee you less than 50% of the population consider themselves PvPers. You'd be pissing off more than 50% of the population. The last stats we got were from Mike O who said bout 10% of the playerbase predominantly PvPs, about 30% predominantly WvW and and about 60% predominatly PvE. > > To add to that, if you're built to surviev, like many WvW players are, you'll be able to take down a whole lot of PvE players, without much challenge, because they're not built for that. It's just a bad idea. Make announcement. Problem solved. Can be mail, word of mouth etc. There be new instance per map where loot is times 3 but you have to choose sides whether for or against. So two sides can fight for resource bosses etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. > > > > > > > > After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. > > > > > > > > PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. > > > > > > This is just an assumption :) > > > > > > They can still pve in the non pk instances as normal. Maybe only those who enjoy pk will risk. Anything could happen. > > > > > > > No, it's not an "assumption. It's a fact with GW2 players were told no forced pvp in pve, and would quit in droves... Just so you can gank players who don't care about pvp. And if you are having a hard time in wvw, or are bored, then take a break and go play ganker in a game that has it. > > > > And you are obviously not absorbing clear Developer statements... “The overall design for Guild Wars 2 does not support fully open world PvP and it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible.". > > > > No. The only factual thing now is pve has no pk instance. And wvw or spvp or custume fights and that new living story boss if you fail things turn to fights. The devs said no. What do you not understand about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. > > > > > > > > After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. > > > > > > > > PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. > > > > > > This is just an assumption :) > > > > > > They can still pve in the non pk instances as normal. Maybe only those who enjoy pk will risk. Anything could happen. > > > > > > > Anything can happen. This forum could turn into a doorway into another dimension. But it's not very likely. This game, and Guild Wars 1 as well, were designed specifically to keep PvP and PvE seperated. What makes you think it could happen? > > > > The problem is, a lot of casual players don't come to forums or reddit. They wouldn't know that they could be killed by players until it happens. And if it happens after all this time, some of those players will leave. You can say this is an opinion but every MMO I've played that has PvE and PvP open world servers has far more PvE open world servers than PVP. There's a reason for this. > > > > People who PvP think it's what the game is about, predominantly. But I guarantee you less than 50% of the population consider themselves PvPers. You'd be pissing off more than 50% of the population. The last stats we got were from Mike O who said bout 10% of the playerbase predominantly PvPs, about 30% predominantly WvW and and about 60% predominatly PvE. > > > > To add to that, if you're built to surviev, like many WvW players are, you'll be able to take down a whole lot of PvE players, without much challenge, because they're not built for that. It's just a bad idea. > > Make announcement. Problem solved. Can be mail, word of mouth etc. > > There be new instance per map where loot is times 3 but you have to choose sides whether for or against. So two sides can fight for resource bosses etc. Pve players don’t want that and the devs said no. “The overall design for Guild Wars 2 does not support fully open world PvP and it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"kash.9213" said: > > @"Aaron Forestman.4758" said: > > I've seen your average WvW build. Drop by the Aerodrome sometime and we PvE'ers will happily show you what actual damage is like ;) > > Sounds like Aerodrome people would be awesome in WvW, they should hit up the maps after their raids or whatever. But there isn't any damage in wvw because wvwers couldn't take the heat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. > > > > > > > > > > After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. > > > > > > > > > > PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. > > > > > > > > This is just an assumption :) > > > > > > > > They can still pve in the non pk instances as normal. Maybe only those who enjoy pk will risk. Anything could happen. > > > > > > > > > > Anything can happen. This forum could turn into a doorway into another dimension. But it's not very likely. This game, and Guild Wars 1 as well, were designed specifically to keep PvP and PvE seperated. What makes you think it could happen? > > > > > > The problem is, a lot of casual players don't come to forums or reddit. They wouldn't know that they could be killed by players until it happens. And if it happens after all this time, some of those players will leave. You can say this is an opinion but every MMO I've played that has PvE and PvP open world servers has far more PvE open world servers than PVP. There's a reason for this. > > > > > > People who PvP think it's what the game is about, predominantly. But I guarantee you less than 50% of the population consider themselves PvPers. You'd be pissing off more than 50% of the population. The last stats we got were from Mike O who said bout 10% of the playerbase predominantly PvPs, about 30% predominantly WvW and and about 60% predominatly PvE. > > > > > > To add to that, if you're built to surviev, like many WvW players are, you'll be able to take down a whole lot of PvE players, without much challenge, because they're not built for that. It's just a bad idea. > > > > Make announcement. Problem solved. Can be mail, word of mouth etc. > > > > There be new instance per map where loot is times 3 but you have to choose sides whether for or against. So two sides can fight for resource bosses etc. > > Pve players don’t want that and the devs said no. > > “The overall design for Guild Wars 2 does not support fully open world PvP and it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible." Actually no devs said no in this thread. What you linked was something in the past. So it can still become an idea in their mind, i.e. that meta event recently if that dragon thing isn't killed. :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunjiKugashira.9754 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > > So, tell me if I got this right: > > > > You've been spawn-camping in WvW too much and now PvE players won't join the map for their dailies anymore. Now you're looking for a different way to get easy kills because actually fighting other WvW players is too hard for you. > > > > > > > > PvE players are not equipped for PvP and don't have much if any experience fighting other players. There's a reason for that and if you think about it hard enough I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out. > > > > > > > > I've played a game with "Open World PvP" once. At that time I didn't know that "Open World PvP" = Grieving lower lvl players the moment they dare to try and level in an area that's appropriate for them with no option to prevent getting PKed. I guess I was imagining something more like consentual duels and GvG taking place in the open world. It was truly awful. If you somehow like gameplay like that, then why don't you play games like that? Oh, I forgot. The other players in those games are PvP players as well and PvE players are avoiding them like the pest, so there's a distinct lack of easy targets. I wonder why? > > > > > > I guess I don’t understand your post.. > > > > > > If someone didn’t want to be involved, why would they choose the instanced content the OP mentioned? > > > > > > Can you help me understand the motivation and reasoning behind your comparing apples to oranges? > > > > He mentioned Jormag as an example. Claw of Jormag (commonly referred to as just Jormag) is not instanced, so I can only assume that by "instance" he meant the map-instance of the frostgorge sound. Other instances include, to my understanding, raid and dungeon instances. > > Later in the conversation: > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > Is this discussion some sort of "out of season April fools joke?" > > > > > > if you wanna kill other players then do PvP, leave the PvE people alone. They chose guild wars 2 because they didn't wanna deal with WoW's PK bullcrap. > > > > > > This is why I love guild wars 2, you have options. > > > > No. If you read the premise it's a special instance whereby it's pk. Players can choose not to go there but forego the incentive. :) > > So, increased PvE rewards to go with the risk of PK. > > Opt in, without someone running around like in some games where people spam duel requests. He also said in other comments > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > @"Antycypator.9874" said: > > As an "only PvE player", I agree, but if you die as a PK, you lose your entire EQ (your killer gets everything) and your character gets banned for a week. > > > > @.@ it is a wholesome idea within the confines of wvw rules. > > Only that we can invade instances of highly pve players for them to pve there is because 3 x or more loot. For pk, well, we serve the dragon wee. > > Seriously though it must be explored > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > Imagine a certain instance where the loot is 3 x etc and good drops and you can pk players. > > > > > > > > > > It'll be fun. Raid the instance of ppl killing jormag for example > > > > > > > > > > > > ———————— > > > > > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > > > I'm not against 1v1 dueling, with restrictions to areas. But as other's noted, to do this right requires a lot of work. (Specified duel areas, a way to change the skill ruleset used based on an area rather than a whole map, etc. > > > > > > > > > > We have so many higher priorities that I can't see us ever actually getting to this in the foreseeable future. Especially as we already have the means for players to create their own 1v1's via custom arenas. > > > > > > > > > > > > That all means “no” to bringing pvp to open world pve areas. > > > > > > :3 not yet you mean. We have Such good pve zones. > > > > “ requires a lot of work.” > > > > “ We have so many higher priorities that I can't see us ever actually getting to this in the foreseeable future.” > > > > No is no. The majority of people pve in the game don’t want it either. > > > > Enjoy wvw while this game is still online. > > :3 one can dream of raiding players stacking on jormag or tq. :3 which sounds very much like grieving PvE players in their PvE maps. Let's entertain for a moment the concept of an instance that's a copy of a PvE map. All PvE maps remain untouched and this instance is added with 3x the loot of the map its based on and with 2 or more factions that are at war with each other. I actually wouldn't mind that, but do you seriously believe that these maps would be populated by PvE players so you can grieve "PvE players in a PvE rich environment"? 3x the loot is not enough incentive for PvE players to risk having their day ruined. It is enough incentive to complain about how the new game mode destroys the economy though. That hypothetical game mode would be primarily populated by PvP players and hybrids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > > > So, tell me if I got this right: > > > > > You've been spawn-camping in WvW too much and now PvE players won't join the map for their dailies anymore. Now you're looking for a different way to get easy kills because actually fighting other WvW players is too hard for you. > > > > > > > > > > PvE players are not equipped for PvP and don't have much if any experience fighting other players. There's a reason for that and if you think about it hard enough I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out. > > > > > > > > > > I've played a game with "Open World PvP" once. At that time I didn't know that "Open World PvP" = Grieving lower lvl players the moment they dare to try and level in an area that's appropriate for them with no option to prevent getting PKed. I guess I was imagining something more like consentual duels and GvG taking place in the open world. It was truly awful. If you somehow like gameplay like that, then why don't you play games like that? Oh, I forgot. The other players in those games are PvP players as well and PvE players are avoiding them like the pest, so there's a distinct lack of easy targets. I wonder why? > > > > > > > > I guess I don’t understand your post.. > > > > > > > > If someone didn’t want to be involved, why would they choose the instanced content the OP mentioned? > > > > > > > > Can you help me understand the motivation and reasoning behind your comparing apples to oranges? > > > > > > He mentioned Jormag as an example. Claw of Jormag (commonly referred to as just Jormag) is not instanced, so I can only assume that by "instance" he meant the map-instance of the frostgorge sound. Other instances include, to my understanding, raid and dungeon instances. > > > > Later in the conversation: > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > Is this discussion some sort of "out of season April fools joke?" > > > > > > > > if you wanna kill other players then do PvP, leave the PvE people alone. They chose guild wars 2 because they didn't wanna deal with WoW's PK bullcrap. > > > > > > > > This is why I love guild wars 2, you have options. > > > > > > No. If you read the premise it's a special instance whereby it's pk. Players can choose not to go there but forego the incentive. :) > > > > So, increased PvE rewards to go with the risk of PK. > > > > Opt in, without someone running around like in some games where people spam duel requests. > > He also said in other comments > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"Antycypator.9874" said: > > > As an "only PvE player", I agree, but if you die as a PK, you lose your entire EQ (your killer gets everything) and your character gets banned for a week. > > > > > > > @.@ it is a wholesome idea within the confines of wvw rules. > > > > Only that we can invade instances of highly pve players for them to pve there is because 3 x or more loot. For pk, well, we serve the dragon wee. > > > > Seriously though it must be explored > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > > Imagine a certain instance where the loot is 3 x etc and good drops and you can pk players. > > > > > > > > > > > > It'll be fun. Raid the instance of ppl killing jormag for example > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ———————— > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > > > > I'm not against 1v1 dueling, with restrictions to areas. But as other's noted, to do this right requires a lot of work. (Specified duel areas, a way to change the skill ruleset used based on an area rather than a whole map, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > We have so many higher priorities that I can't see us ever actually getting to this in the foreseeable future. Especially as we already have the means for players to create their own 1v1's via custom arenas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That all means “no” to bringing pvp to open world pve areas. > > > > > > > > :3 not yet you mean. We have Such good pve zones. > > > > > > “ requires a lot of work.” > > > > > > “ We have so many higher priorities that I can't see us ever actually getting to this in the foreseeable future.” > > > > > > No is no. The majority of people pve in the game don’t want it either. > > > > > > Enjoy wvw while this game is still online. > > > > :3 one can dream of raiding players stacking on jormag or tq. :3 > > which sounds very much like grieving PvE players in their PvE maps. > > Let's entertain for a moment the concept of an instance that's a copy of a PvE map. All PvE maps remain untouched and this instance is added with 3x the loot of the map its based on and with 2 or more factions that are at war with each other. I actually wouldn't mind that, but do you seriously believe that these maps would be populated by PvE players so you can grieve "PvE players in a PvE rich environment"? 3x the loot is not enough incentive for PvE players to risk having their day ruined. It is enough incentive to complain about how the new game mode destroys the economy though. > > That hypothetical game mode would be primarily populated by PvP players and hybrids. I don’t believe anything In relation to his post. It was his idea. I could care less about it happening or not, I just wanted information to be factual within the context of what he posted, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 8, 2020 Author Share Posted July 8, 2020 > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > > > So, tell me if I got this right: > > > > > You've been spawn-camping in WvW too much and now PvE players won't join the map for their dailies anymore. Now you're looking for a different way to get easy kills because actually fighting other WvW players is too hard for you. > > > > > > > > > > PvE players are not equipped for PvP and don't have much if any experience fighting other players. There's a reason for that and if you think about it hard enough I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out. > > > > > > > > > > I've played a game with "Open World PvP" once. At that time I didn't know that "Open World PvP" = Grieving lower lvl players the moment they dare to try and level in an area that's appropriate for them with no option to prevent getting PKed. I guess I was imagining something more like consentual duels and GvG taking place in the open world. It was truly awful. If you somehow like gameplay like that, then why don't you play games like that? Oh, I forgot. The other players in those games are PvP players as well and PvE players are avoiding them like the pest, so there's a distinct lack of easy targets. I wonder why? > > > > > > > > I guess I don’t understand your post.. > > > > > > > > If someone didn’t want to be involved, why would they choose the instanced content the OP mentioned? > > > > > > > > Can you help me understand the motivation and reasoning behind your comparing apples to oranges? > > > > > > He mentioned Jormag as an example. Claw of Jormag (commonly referred to as just Jormag) is not instanced, so I can only assume that by "instance" he meant the map-instance of the frostgorge sound. Other instances include, to my understanding, raid and dungeon instances. > > > > Later in the conversation: > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > @"Zabi Zabi.3561" said: > > > > Is this discussion some sort of "out of season April fools joke?" > > > > > > > > if you wanna kill other players then do PvP, leave the PvE people alone. They chose guild wars 2 because they didn't wanna deal with WoW's PK bullcrap. > > > > > > > > This is why I love guild wars 2, you have options. > > > > > > No. If you read the premise it's a special instance whereby it's pk. Players can choose not to go there but forego the incentive. :) > > > > So, increased PvE rewards to go with the risk of PK. > > > > Opt in, without someone running around like in some games where people spam duel requests. > > He also said in other comments > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"Antycypator.9874" said: > > > As an "only PvE player", I agree, but if you die as a PK, you lose your entire EQ (your killer gets everything) and your character gets banned for a week. > > > > > > > @.@ it is a wholesome idea within the confines of wvw rules. > > > > Only that we can invade instances of highly pve players for them to pve there is because 3 x or more loot. For pk, well, we serve the dragon wee. > > > > Seriously though it must be explored > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > > Imagine a certain instance where the loot is 3 x etc and good drops and you can pk players. > > > > > > > > > > > > It'll be fun. Raid the instance of ppl killing jormag for example > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ———————— > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: > > > > > > I'm not against 1v1 dueling, with restrictions to areas. But as other's noted, to do this right requires a lot of work. (Specified duel areas, a way to change the skill ruleset used based on an area rather than a whole map, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > We have so many higher priorities that I can't see us ever actually getting to this in the foreseeable future. Especially as we already have the means for players to create their own 1v1's via custom arenas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That all means “no” to bringing pvp to open world pve areas. > > > > > > > > :3 not yet you mean. We have Such good pve zones. > > > > > > “ requires a lot of work.” > > > > > > “ We have so many higher priorities that I can't see us ever actually getting to this in the foreseeable future.” > > > > > > No is no. The majority of people pve in the game don’t want it either. > > > > > > Enjoy wvw while this game is still online. > > > > :3 one can dream of raiding players stacking on jormag or tq. :3 > > which sounds very much like grieving PvE players in their PvE maps. > > Let's entertain for a moment the concept of an instance that's a copy of a PvE map. All PvE maps remain untouched and this instance is added with 3x the loot of the map its based on and with 2 or more factions that are at war with each other. I actually wouldn't mind that, but do you seriously believe that these maps would be populated by PvE players so you can grieve "PvE players in a PvE rich environment"? 3x the loot is not enough incentive for PvE players to risk having their day ruined. It is enough incentive to complain about how the new game mode destroys the economy though. > > That hypothetical game mode would be primarily populated by PvP players and hybrids. :3 it'll make PvP players of everyone. And if they don't like it, they can just do the normal instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 You actually found the one thing that is even more unlikely than for alliances to be released and for them to fix all issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 9, 2020 Author Share Posted July 9, 2020 > @"Henry.5713" said: > You actually found the one thing that is even more unlikely than for alliances to be released and for them to fix all issues. I've broadened my horizons. :3 we who is stuck in the little box called wvw is left out of so many great things out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 jeez peeps. one time of the month with an optional instance of wvw vs pve players and there is all this fear and anger. for no reason, and indeed no reason being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disForm.2837 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Despite your dreams of farming unsuspected PvE players, it won't ever work. If it's an instance, you won't get any easy PvE players at all, who would go there to be slaughtered? Everybody will know the wolves are waiting to eat you alive. All you would get it's some heavy WvW guilds ready to ambush non prepared solo WvW players wanting easy free kills. So it's basically WvW on a PvE map. If it's non instanced, PvE players simply won't go into those maps or simply won't log in that day if it's worldwide. And PvErs would quit the game in droves. Most players don't want to suffer the stress of sPvP, just a relaxed experience, nobody can force them. Anyway, nice troll post ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 9, 2020 Author Share Posted July 9, 2020 > @"disForm.2837" said: > Despite your dreams of farming unsuspected PvE players, it won't ever work. > > If it's an instance, you won't get any easy PvE players at all, who would go there to be slaughtered? Everybody will know the wolves are waiting to eat you alive. All you would get it's some heavy WvW guilds ready to ambush non prepared solo WvW players wanting easy free kills. So it's basically WvW on a PvE map. > > If it's non instanced, PvE players simply won't go into those maps or simply won't log in that day if it's worldwide. And PvErs would quit the game in droves. > > Most players don't want to suffer the stress of sPvP, just a relaxed experience, nobody can force them. > > Anyway, nice troll post ;) Serious post not troll. Well ppl who don't want to fight just can do the normal instance and those who want to go into the pk instance :3 No risk no reward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 People are right though, they would just quit the game. If people wanted to PvP they would already be joining sPvP or WvW. Open world PvErs just want their loot in a chill environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. > > > > > > > > > > > > PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. > > > > > > > > > > This is just an assumption :) > > > > > > > > > > They can still pve in the non pk instances as normal. Maybe only those who enjoy pk will risk. Anything could happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anything can happen. This forum could turn into a doorway into another dimension. But it's not very likely. This game, and Guild Wars 1 as well, were designed specifically to keep PvP and PvE seperated. What makes you think it could happen? > > > > > > > > The problem is, a lot of casual players don't come to forums or reddit. They wouldn't know that they could be killed by players until it happens. And if it happens after all this time, some of those players will leave. You can say this is an opinion but every MMO I've played that has PvE and PvP open world servers has far more PvE open world servers than PVP. There's a reason for this. > > > > > > > > People who PvP think it's what the game is about, predominantly. But I guarantee you less than 50% of the population consider themselves PvPers. You'd be pissing off more than 50% of the population. The last stats we got were from Mike O who said bout 10% of the playerbase predominantly PvPs, about 30% predominantly WvW and and about 60% predominatly PvE. > > > > > > > > To add to that, if you're built to surviev, like many WvW players are, you'll be able to take down a whole lot of PvE players, without much challenge, because they're not built for that. It's just a bad idea. > > > > > > Make announcement. Problem solved. Can be mail, word of mouth etc. > > > > > > There be new instance per map where loot is times 3 but you have to choose sides whether for or against. So two sides can fight for resource bosses etc. > > > > Pve players don’t want that and the devs said no. > > > > “The overall design for Guild Wars 2 does not support fully open world PvP and it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible." > > Actually no devs said no in this thread. What you linked was something in the past. > > So it can still become an idea in their mind, i.e. that meta event recently if that dragon thing isn't killed. > > :3 You know what this means? "it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 > @"SWI.4127" said: > People are right though, they would just quit the game. If people wanted to PvP they would already be joining sPvP or WvW. Open world PvErs just want their loot in a chill environment. No. They wouldn't quit simply because their pve instance still exists as before. > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is just an assumption :) > > > > > > > > > > > > They can still pve in the non pk instances as normal. Maybe only those who enjoy pk will risk. Anything could happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anything can happen. This forum could turn into a doorway into another dimension. But it's not very likely. This game, and Guild Wars 1 as well, were designed specifically to keep PvP and PvE seperated. What makes you think it could happen? > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, a lot of casual players don't come to forums or reddit. They wouldn't know that they could be killed by players until it happens. And if it happens after all this time, some of those players will leave. You can say this is an opinion but every MMO I've played that has PvE and PvP open world servers has far more PvE open world servers than PVP. There's a reason for this. > > > > > > > > > > People who PvP think it's what the game is about, predominantly. But I guarantee you less than 50% of the population consider themselves PvPers. You'd be pissing off more than 50% of the population. The last stats we got were from Mike O who said bout 10% of the playerbase predominantly PvPs, about 30% predominantly WvW and and about 60% predominatly PvE. > > > > > > > > > > To add to that, if you're built to surviev, like many WvW players are, you'll be able to take down a whole lot of PvE players, without much challenge, because they're not built for that. It's just a bad idea. > > > > > > > > Make announcement. Problem solved. Can be mail, word of mouth etc. > > > > > > > > There be new instance per map where loot is times 3 but you have to choose sides whether for or against. So two sides can fight for resource bosses etc. > > > > > > Pve players don’t want that and the devs said no. > > > > > > “The overall design for Guild Wars 2 does not support fully open world PvP and it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible." > > > > Actually no devs said no in this thread. What you linked was something in the past. > > > > So it can still become an idea in their mind, i.e. that meta event recently if that dragon thing isn't killed. > > > > :3 > > You know what this means? "it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible." It means it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Look up the definition of "prohibitive". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > People are right though, they would just quit the game. If people wanted to PvP they would already be joining sPvP or WvW. Open world PvErs just want their loot in a chill environment. > > > > No. They wouldn't quit simply because their pve instance still exists as before. > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > > > > If this were to happen, you'd l;ose a lot of your PvE players in a PvE rich environment. They'd leave the game. I certainly would. At which point, you'd have far less PvE players which make up the bulk of the playerbase. This game is not supported by WvW players alone after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After a year of this, when a good portion of us have left the game, you'd wonder why the game was shutting down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PvE and PvP are kept seperate in this game for a very good reason. I'm pretty sure it was an intentional design choice. I'm pretty sure it's not going away. But in my opinion this would lose far more players than it would gain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is just an assumption :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They can still pve in the non pk instances as normal. Maybe only those who enjoy pk will risk. Anything could happen. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anything can happen. This forum could turn into a doorway into another dimension. But it's not very likely. This game, and Guild Wars 1 as well, were designed specifically to keep PvP and PvE seperated. What makes you think it could happen? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, a lot of casual players don't come to forums or reddit. They wouldn't know that they could be killed by players until it happens. And if it happens after all this time, some of those players will leave. You can say this is an opinion but every MMO I've played that has PvE and PvP open world servers has far more PvE open world servers than PVP. There's a reason for this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People who PvP think it's what the game is about, predominantly. But I guarantee you less than 50% of the population consider themselves PvPers. You'd be pissing off more than 50% of the population. The last stats we got were from Mike O who said bout 10% of the playerbase predominantly PvPs, about 30% predominantly WvW and and about 60% predominatly PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To add to that, if you're built to surviev, like many WvW players are, you'll be able to take down a whole lot of PvE players, without much challenge, because they're not built for that. It's just a bad idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Make announcement. Problem solved. Can be mail, word of mouth etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > There be new instance per map where loot is times 3 but you have to choose sides whether for or against. So two sides can fight for resource bosses etc. > > > > > > > > > > Pve players don’t want that and the devs said no. > > > > > > > > > > “The overall design for Guild Wars 2 does not support fully open world PvP and it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible." > > > > > > > > Actually no devs said no in this thread. What you linked was something in the past. > > > > > > > > So it can still become an idea in their mind, i.e. that meta event recently if that dragon thing isn't killed. > > > > > > > > :3 > > > > > > You know what this means? "it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible." > > > > It means it can be done. > > Look up the definition of "prohibitive". That's not how it works. If you put in the term, you must define it. So we have a clear understanding of what you mean. Context As per my post, let it happen. :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 I don't need to define anything. The Devs did it just fine... http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/TemperHoof/072012/23486_Guild-Wars-2-Redefines-Open-World-PVP “The overall design for Guild Wars 2 does not support fully open world PvP and it would take a prohibitive amount of work to even make it possible. World versus world is our version of open world PvP, and while it isn’t ‘true’ open world PvP for more PvP purists, it does contain many of the elements that make world PvP so exciting. Hopefully it will mostly satisfy people that want open world PvP.” — Mike Ferguson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now