TrOtskY.5927 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > There's nothing more indicative of just how far out of touch with reality these forums are than a thread with Firebrands arguing for buffs. > > > > > > > > I think this coming from a Shock Aura & Invul & Heal spamming class like Tempest is borderline insane. > > > > > > It doesn't matter where it comes from ... it's still true. If people think FB needs buffs, they need to L2P in a hard way. > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I just looked up your name on the leaderboard and it is rude and beyond cocky to tell people „L2P“ when you aren‘t even ranked in sPvP for this and weren’t ranked the last season. Also L2P is the argument people use who have literally no arguments > > Again, you seem to think you can dismiss people's comments based on your assessment of them. That's not going to make your point. > > There is an argument here ... this isn't a class deficiency issue, it's a player one ... so Anet doesn't need to fix whatever you think is broken. The 'broken class' is the argument people use who can't play their class. Players need to stop pouting because they can't dominate with a faceroll anymore. How can you decide when people can and can't make equivocal statements? The guy you are replying too is clearly experienced at playing FB at a decently competitive level for the last couple months, and his experience and opinion with FB is mirrored by most decent players at plat or above. How can you possibly weigh in on the discussion if you have no recent experience of playing the class competitively? Your point has no substance other than "you just feel that way". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 > @"TrOtskY.5927" said: > How can you decide when people can and can't make equivocal statements? The same way mine and other people's comments are dismissed because of his superficial assessment of our PVP experiences. See how that works? > Your point has no substance other than "you just feel that way". Actually, if people are going to complain about Anet making game changes because 'feelings' ... that point has lots of substance; how some individual feels about a change isn't relevant to why it was changed to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > There's nothing more indicative of just how far out of touch with reality these forums are than a thread with Firebrands arguing for buffs. > > > > > > > > I think this coming from a Shock Aura & Invul & Heal spamming class like Tempest is borderline insane. > > > > > > It doesn't matter where it comes from ... it's still true. If people think FB needs buffs, they need to L2P in a hard way. > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I just looked up your name on the leaderboard and it is rude and beyond cocky to tell people „L2P“ when you aren‘t even ranked in sPvP for this and weren’t ranked the last season. Also L2P is the argument people use who have literally no arguments > > Again, you seem to think you can dismiss people's comments based on your assessment of them. That's not going to make your point. > > There is an argument here ... this isn't a class deficiency issue, it's a player one ... so Anet doesn't need to fix whatever you think is broken. The 'broken class' is the argument people use who can't play their class. Players need to stop pouting because they can't dominate with a faceroll anymore. Sure, but your own argument, and the argument you're backing up, is based on... essentially, stating your opinion in an insulting way that implies it should be self-evident without providing any additional justification. And while being lower on the leaderboard than the person you're arguing with doesn't necessarily mean you're _wrong,_ it certainly _does_ look bad when you try to use a "L2P" argument against someone who's ranked higher than you (even if there are a lot of issues with the leaderboards, including some pretty blatant match manipulation). My anecdotal experience from the gold division is that firebrands just aren't a big deal any more. In fact, they're so much not a big deal any more that I'd rather see one on the enemy team than on my own, and they've become an uncommon sight either way. There are builds that are a lot stronger and more impactful than firebrand these days, including in their own role. Yes, firebrand _was_ dominant for a long time, but those days have been long gone. If anything, like scourge they may well have been overnerfed - it's just that we're still seeing them because people are used to playing them and it can take a while for people to decide that swapping to a stronger build is worth having to learn that new build. In the meantime, every time someone runs into a firebrand that beats them, it reinforces the habitual thinking that they're broken - if the usual cycle repeats, it'll probably take them leaving sPvP entirely before people admit they're no longer the most broken thing ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > There's nothing more indicative of just how far out of touch with reality these forums are than a thread with Firebrands arguing for buffs. > > > > > > > > > > I think this coming from a Shock Aura & Invul & Heal spamming class like Tempest is borderline insane. > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter where it comes from ... it's still true. If people think FB needs buffs, they need to L2P in a hard way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I just looked up your name on the leaderboard and it is rude and beyond cocky to tell people „L2P“ when you aren‘t even ranked in sPvP for this and weren’t ranked the last season. Also L2P is the argument people use who have literally no arguments > > > > Again, you seem to think you can dismiss people's comments based on your assessment of them. That's not going to make your point. > > > > There is an argument here ... this isn't a class deficiency issue, it's a player one ... so Anet doesn't need to fix whatever you think is broken. The 'broken class' is the argument people use who can't play their class. Players need to stop pouting because they can't dominate with a faceroll anymore. > Yes, firebrand _was_ dominant for a long time, but those days have been long gone. Right ... and there isn't any reason for players, skilled or not, to complain about this. It's Anet's standard approach to change classes that have impacts like this for 8 years now, regardless of who is on what leaderboard and how these people think the game should revolve around their status in PVP. The fact is that the actual PVP players worth listening to know this will happen to them and when it does, they don't just moan on about Anet's 'bad' balancing ... they test things and make changes to how they play, make good threads on what's missing, how it affects their success, etc ... Anet nerfing a Mantra ... if THAT was the big change to make people think FB's are dumpster level ... that IS a L2P issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > > There's nothing more indicative of just how far out of touch with reality these forums are than a thread with Firebrands arguing for buffs. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this coming from a Shock Aura & Invul & Heal spamming class like Tempest is borderline insane. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter where it comes from ... it's still true. If people think FB needs buffs, they need to L2P in a hard way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I just looked up your name on the leaderboard and it is rude and beyond cocky to tell people „L2P“ when you aren‘t even ranked in sPvP for this and weren’t ranked the last season. Also L2P is the argument people use who have literally no arguments > > > > > > Again, you seem to think you can dismiss people's comments based on your assessment of them. That's not going to make your point. > > > > > > There is an argument here ... this isn't a class deficiency issue, it's a player one ... so Anet doesn't need to fix whatever you think is broken. The 'broken class' is the argument people use who can't play their class. Players need to stop pouting because they can't dominate with a faceroll anymore. > > > Yes, firebrand _was_ dominant for a long time, but those days have been long gone. > > Right ... and there isn't any reason for players, skilled or not, to complain about this. It's Anet's standard approach to change classes that have impacts like this for 8 years now, regardless of who is on what leaderboard and how these people think the game should revolve around their status in PVP. The fact is that the actual PVP players worth listening to know this will happen to them and when it does, they don't just moan on about Anet's 'bad' balancing ... they test things and make changes to how they play, make good threads on what's missing, how it affects their success, etc ... > > Anet nerfing a Mantra ... if THAT was the big change to make people think FB's are dumpster level ... that IS a L2P issue. > It’s not one mantra though. 3 out of 4 were nerfed. Axe was nerfed. Healing from symbols was nerfed. Menders FB still hovering around the meta viability, since it is carried by honor healing (aegis+dodge) and can dish boons. But GL playing anything else. Core condi, which is meme build, is better than any FB damage variant. I do not play support solo. If you cannot carry some games you will have hard time winning consistently. I do not sPvP much anyway. FB still solid in PvE though. I guess that is the level we are at right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > > > There's nothing more indicative of just how far out of touch with reality these forums are than a thread with Firebrands arguing for buffs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this coming from a Shock Aura & Invul & Heal spamming class like Tempest is borderline insane. > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter where it comes from ... it's still true. If people think FB needs buffs, they need to L2P in a hard way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I just looked up your name on the leaderboard and it is rude and beyond cocky to tell people „L2P“ when you aren‘t even ranked in sPvP for this and weren’t ranked the last season. Also L2P is the argument people use who have literally no arguments > > > > > > > > Again, you seem to think you can dismiss people's comments based on your assessment of them. That's not going to make your point. > > > > > > > > There is an argument here ... this isn't a class deficiency issue, it's a player one ... so Anet doesn't need to fix whatever you think is broken. The 'broken class' is the argument people use who can't play their class. Players need to stop pouting because they can't dominate with a faceroll anymore. > > > > > Yes, firebrand _was_ dominant for a long time, but those days have been long gone. > > > > Right ... and there isn't any reason for players, skilled or not, to complain about this. It's Anet's standard approach to change classes that have impacts like this for 8 years now, regardless of who is on what leaderboard and how these people think the game should revolve around their status in PVP. The fact is that the actual PVP players worth listening to know this will happen to them and when it does, they don't just moan on about Anet's 'bad' balancing ... they test things and make changes to how they play, make good threads on what's missing, how it affects their success, etc ... > > > > Anet nerfing a Mantra ... if THAT was the big change to make people think FB's are dumpster level ... that IS a L2P issue. > > > > It’s not one mantra though. 3 out of 4 were nerfed. Axe was nerfed. Healing from symbols was nerfed. Menders FB still hovering around the meta viability, since it is carried by honor healing (aegis+dodge) and can dish boons. But GL playing anything else. Core condi, which is meme build, is better than any FB damage variant. > > I do not play support solo. If you cannot carry some games you will have hard time winning consistently. I do not sPvP much anyway. FB still solid in PvE though. I guess that is the level we are at right now. Sure ... there are other changes that took place and they changed how FB players ... but I'm just focusing on how the OP has created this thread ... like it's the first class change that we have ever seen and THIS is the class change that killed FB ... no, that's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 So let me ask you this, how exactly is this class dead when it is by far the prevalent of the heavy armor classes in game outside of PvE right now? In WvW and PvP you see them all the time, guardians in general are in a pretty good place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > So let me ask you this, how exactly is this class dead when it is by far the prevalent of the heavy armor classes in game outside of PvE right now? In WvW and PvP you see them all the time, guardians in general are in a pretty good place. WvW sure. But talking about blob PvP is blob. Rev by far is the best heavy class in sPvP. Both condi and power rev are better than any FB build. And there are multiple condi rev builds viable, with 2-3 being competitive. PvE, ya guardian. condi damage renegade is equal to Condi damage FB (more damage but less support). Both have equally powerful support builds. But DH is better power build then herald. Both guardian and rev are better than warrior. Warrior performed the worst in all game modes currently. Actually, it is the worst performing class among all classes all across game modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"DonNee.5128" said: > > ye 1 tier below nade holo and tempest makes this spec absolutely dead > > > > #2 and #3 team ran fb, but because #1 team ran tempest it means that fb is unviable > > I think there is a misunderstanding of the issue. FB was viable as non-support before, now menders support is the only option. Why cannot FB, and guardian in general, have more than 1 build (which is support) viable? And support queing solo is always a bad idea. If your allies are not good there is nothing to support, so you are obsolete. Guardian actually has multiple builds and can play DPS in plat+ without needing insane game knowledge and time spent. Ele is the real "support only" class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > @"DonNee.5128" said: > > > ye 1 tier below nade holo and tempest makes this spec absolutely dead > > > > > > #2 and #3 team ran fb, but because #1 team ran tempest it means that fb is unviable > > > > I think there is a misunderstanding of the issue. FB was viable as non-support before, now menders support is the only option. Why cannot FB, and guardian in general, have more than 1 build (which is support) viable? And support queing solo is always a bad idea. If your allies are not good there is nothing to support, so you are obsolete. > Guardian actually has multiple builds and can play DPS in plat+ without needing insane game knowledge and time spent. Ele is the real "support only" class. > Last time I played ranked I took core guardian, GS S/shield after retaliation nerf, zeal/radiance/mediation, to P2 in 12 games. Core guardian was not meta and no one use zeal for core guardian in sPvP instead of virtues. Does that mean that build was meta or even viable? It absolutely was not. I am rusty now, but I can still take any Coherent guardian build to platinum. Any experienced Player can do that with a class they main. That has zero correlation with balance or how the build/class is performing. You are confusing Player skill with build viability. taking a build to platinum means nothing. The real question is how may players playing non-support FB can take that build to 1,700 or higher. Are non-support guardian builds among the higher winning build composition? They are not. If your goal is to play competitively, either stick to menders support FB or play a different class. This cascades all the way down. Only exception is meme core build which can devastate poor g2- players who cannot pace cleanse. But GL playing that successfully in a P2 game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonNee.5128 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > > @"otto.5684" said: > > > > @"DonNee.5128" said: > > > > ye 1 tier below nade holo and tempest makes this spec absolutely dead > > > > > > > > #2 and #3 team ran fb, but because #1 team ran tempest it means that fb is unviable > > > > > > I think there is a misunderstanding of the issue. FB was viable as non-support before, now menders support is the only option. Why cannot FB, and guardian in general, have more than 1 build (which is support) viable? And support queing solo is always a bad idea. If your allies are not good there is nothing to support, so you are obsolete. > > Guardian actually has multiple builds and can play DPS in plat+ without needing insane game knowledge and time spent. Ele is the real "support only" class. > > > > Last time I played ranked I took core guardian, GS S/shield after retaliation nerf, zeal/radiance/mediation, to P2 in 12 games. Core guardian was not meta and no one use zeal for core guardian in sPvP instead of virtues. Does that mean that build was meta or even viable? It absolutely was not. > > I am rusty now, but I can still take any Coherent guardian build to platinum. Any experienced Player can do that with a class they main. That has zero correlation with balance or how the build/class is performing. You are confusing Player skill with build viability. > > taking a build to platinum means nothing. The real question is how may players playing non-support FB can take that build to 1,700 or higher. Are non-support guardian builds among the higher winning build composition? They are not. If your goal is to play competitively, either stick to menders support FB or play a different class. This cascades all the way down. Only exception is meme core build which can devastate poor g2- players who cannot pace cleanse. But GL playing that successfully in a P2 game. > > right now there is 2 burn dh in top 10, and some core guards in top 25 - last season ended similar with the amount of guards all non-support btw, most popular is bunker core guard who just spam symbols Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoow.1694 Posted August 22, 2020 Author Share Posted August 22, 2020 The thing is, it was a good choice to nerf Firebrand, but I feel like they took it a little bit too far with Mantra Of Solace, since all the other modifiers going down hit mostly the support Firebrands used to provide to others, but going as far as not being able to sustain yourself effectively as well as not being very mobile results in what we have now. I mean, they could even keep the heal provided for others down, but at least let us heal ourselves by the proper pre nerf amount **for our heal skill only** since everything else was toned down. Another option would be to make „Pure of Voice“ an adept Honor trait, because no one at the moment would give up the master trait „Pure of Heart“ or the grandmaster trait „Writ of Persistence“. It would enable Shout Support Guardian to evolve, since pure Shout Guard Specs are at this moment irrelevant and it would maybe make for a good solution. In that case we would have another option by using the for the most part unplayed shout heal skill „Receive the Light“ when we want to play a supporter and no pre patch Mantra Of Solace would be needed. ArenaNet just recently buffed the shout „Retreat“, so I believe they would also want to see Guardians utilize shouts a little more often and that could go well along with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted August 22, 2020 Share Posted August 22, 2020 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > So let me ask you this, how exactly is this class dead when it is by far the prevalent of the heavy armor classes in game outside of PvE right now? In WvW and PvP you see them all the time, guardians in general are in a pretty good place. > > WvW sure. But talking about blob PvP is blob. Rev by far is the best heavy class in sPvP. Both condi and power rev are better than any FB build. And there are multiple condi rev builds viable, with 2-3 being competitive. > > PvE, ya guardian. condi damage renegade is equal to Condi damage FB (more damage but less support). Both have equally powerful support builds. But DH is better power build then herald. Both guardian and rev are better than warrior. Warrior performed the worst in all game modes currently. Actually, it is the worst performing class among all classes all across game modes. > Alright, well that clears things up a bit. And yea I dropped my warrior because its just not fun to play right now with how many other classes just do what it does better and requires so much less effort to pull off. Ill contest you with rev being better in PvP I mean sure if the player knows what they are doing; They can make anything shine but guardian honestly has more tools (More viable tools) with Rev you see and know by the tells whats coming. Guardian has so many abilities and weapons that just work, and thats not a bad thing AT ALL infact I wish rev and warrior had as many viable options ya know? I feel guardian is where the other two in terms of power, utility and performance across game modes should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 @"Thornwolf.9721" Rev unquestionably have terrible weapon diversity. But in sPvP the things that work, work extremely well. No guardian power build can even come remotely close to herald in a mile radius. Rev support builds are meh in sPvP, where FB performs well. Condi damage rev has multiple competitive builds. Guardian has... meme condi core? Sage FB with no survivability and no cover condis? I would not recommend either, especially condi FB. It went from top tier, before Feb patch, to OP right after, to unviable. As for guardian options, in PvE I strongly agree. In sPvP, guardian has no diversity. FB menders has no flexibility. If you deviate even slightly, it will not work. Everything else uses mediation and virtues. You will also be using 3-5 mediations in your utility bar. And you have bad mobility on all builds. The only saving grace for guardian nowadays is strong cleansing, cuz the meta is heavy condi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > > There's nothing more indicative of just how far out of touch with reality these forums are than a thread with Firebrands arguing for buffs. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this coming from a Shock Aura & Invul & Heal spamming class like Tempest is borderline insane. > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter where it comes from ... it's still true. If people think FB needs buffs, they need to L2P in a hard way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I just looked up your name on the leaderboard and it is rude and beyond cocky to tell people „L2P“ when you aren‘t even ranked in sPvP for this and weren’t ranked the last season. Also L2P is the argument people use who have literally no arguments > > > > > > Again, you seem to think you can dismiss people's comments based on your assessment of them. That's not going to make your point. > > > > > > There is an argument here ... this isn't a class deficiency issue, it's a player one ... so Anet doesn't need to fix whatever you think is broken. The 'broken class' is the argument people use who can't play their class. Players need to stop pouting because they can't dominate with a faceroll anymore. > > > Yes, firebrand _was_ dominant for a long time, but those days have been long gone. > > Right ... and there isn't any reason for players, skilled or not, to complain about this. It's Anet's standard approach to change classes that have impacts like this for 8 years now, regardless of who is on what leaderboard and how these people think the game should revolve around their status in PVP. The fact is that the actual PVP players worth listening to know this will happen to them and when it does, they don't just moan on about Anet's 'bad' balancing ... they test things and make changes to how they play, make good threads on what's missing, how it affects their success, etc ... > > Anet nerfing a Mantra ... if THAT was the big change to make people think FB's are dumpster level ... that IS a L2P issue. > "Was" is the key word there though. Balance needs to be measured against how things are _now,_ not from people still holding grudges over where it was half a year ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > > > There's nothing more indicative of just how far out of touch with reality these forums are than a thread with Firebrands arguing for buffs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this coming from a Shock Aura & Invul & Heal spamming class like Tempest is borderline insane. > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter where it comes from ... it's still true. If people think FB needs buffs, they need to L2P in a hard way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I just looked up your name on the leaderboard and it is rude and beyond cocky to tell people „L2P“ when you aren‘t even ranked in sPvP for this and weren’t ranked the last season. Also L2P is the argument people use who have literally no arguments > > > > > > > > Again, you seem to think you can dismiss people's comments based on your assessment of them. That's not going to make your point. > > > > > > > > There is an argument here ... this isn't a class deficiency issue, it's a player one ... so Anet doesn't need to fix whatever you think is broken. The 'broken class' is the argument people use who can't play their class. Players need to stop pouting because they can't dominate with a faceroll anymore. > > > > > Yes, firebrand _was_ dominant for a long time, but those days have been long gone. > > > > Right ... and there isn't any reason for players, skilled or not, to complain about this. It's Anet's standard approach to change classes that have impacts like this for 8 years now, regardless of who is on what leaderboard and how these people think the game should revolve around their status in PVP. The fact is that the actual PVP players worth listening to know this will happen to them and when it does, they don't just moan on about Anet's 'bad' balancing ... they test things and make changes to how they play, make good threads on what's missing, how it affects their success, etc ... > > > > Anet nerfing a Mantra ... if THAT was the big change to make people think FB's are dumpster level ... that IS a L2P issue. > > > > "Was" is the key word there though. Balance needs to be measured against how things are _now,_ not from people still holding grudges over where it was half a year ago. Let me ask you then ... do you think the OP is correct? Is FB 'dead'? If it is ... is it because of a change to one Mantra? Even better question: Is it actually a problem that FB changes status in PVP, considering the history of this game and it's class changes? Does anyone at this point actually think Anet can make changes to the classes AND maintain balance in them in a way to keep players reasonably happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > > > > There's nothing more indicative of just how far out of touch with reality these forums are than a thread with Firebrands arguing for buffs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this coming from a Shock Aura & Invul & Heal spamming class like Tempest is borderline insane. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter where it comes from ... it's still true. If people think FB needs buffs, they need to L2P in a hard way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I just looked up your name on the leaderboard and it is rude and beyond cocky to tell people „L2P“ when you aren‘t even ranked in sPvP for this and weren’t ranked the last season. Also L2P is the argument people use who have literally no arguments > > > > > > > > > > Again, you seem to think you can dismiss people's comments based on your assessment of them. That's not going to make your point. > > > > > > > > > > There is an argument here ... this isn't a class deficiency issue, it's a player one ... so Anet doesn't need to fix whatever you think is broken. The 'broken class' is the argument people use who can't play their class. Players need to stop pouting because they can't dominate with a faceroll anymore. > > > > > > > Yes, firebrand _was_ dominant for a long time, but those days have been long gone. > > > > > > Right ... and there isn't any reason for players, skilled or not, to complain about this. It's Anet's standard approach to change classes that have impacts like this for 8 years now, regardless of who is on what leaderboard and how these people think the game should revolve around their status in PVP. The fact is that the actual PVP players worth listening to know this will happen to them and when it does, they don't just moan on about Anet's 'bad' balancing ... they test things and make changes to how they play, make good threads on what's missing, how it affects their success, etc ... > > > > > > Anet nerfing a Mantra ... if THAT was the big change to make people think FB's are dumpster level ... that IS a L2P issue. > > > > > > > "Was" is the key word there though. Balance needs to be measured against how things are _now,_ not from people still holding grudges over where it was half a year ago. > > Let me ask you then ... do you think the OP is correct? Is FB 'dead'? If it is ... is it because of a change to one Mantra? > > Even better question: Is it actually a problem that FB changes status in PVP, considering the history of this game and it's class changes? Does anyone at this point actually think Anet can make changes to the classes AND maintain balance in them in a way to keep players reasonably happy? The question would be, if the changes goal is not to balance or improve, why where they made in the first place? Are Anet devs trying to meet a quota to act as if they actually do work? You know what would make me happy? Having 6-8 meta or close to meta, builds in sPvP. Same also for PvE. Being locked into 1-2 meta builds in sPvP does not make anyone happy. This is how people leave the game. They get frustrated that things that used to work, are not anymore. Some would switch to a different build or class. Some become mostly inactive or leave the game. This is lost revenue to Anet due to idiocy. There is a reason (not only balance issues) that the player base have turned antagonistic towards net over the last 18 month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > > > > > There's nothing more indicative of just how far out of touch with reality these forums are than a thread with Firebrands arguing for buffs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this coming from a Shock Aura & Invul & Heal spamming class like Tempest is borderline insane. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter where it comes from ... it's still true. If people think FB needs buffs, they need to L2P in a hard way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I just looked up your name on the leaderboard and it is rude and beyond cocky to tell people „L2P“ when you aren‘t even ranked in sPvP for this and weren’t ranked the last season. Also L2P is the argument people use who have literally no arguments > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, you seem to think you can dismiss people's comments based on your assessment of them. That's not going to make your point. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is an argument here ... this isn't a class deficiency issue, it's a player one ... so Anet doesn't need to fix whatever you think is broken. The 'broken class' is the argument people use who can't play their class. Players need to stop pouting because they can't dominate with a faceroll anymore. > > > > > > > > > Yes, firebrand _was_ dominant for a long time, but those days have been long gone. > > > > > > > > Right ... and there isn't any reason for players, skilled or not, to complain about this. It's Anet's standard approach to change classes that have impacts like this for 8 years now, regardless of who is on what leaderboard and how these people think the game should revolve around their status in PVP. The fact is that the actual PVP players worth listening to know this will happen to them and when it does, they don't just moan on about Anet's 'bad' balancing ... they test things and make changes to how they play, make good threads on what's missing, how it affects their success, etc ... > > > > > > > > Anet nerfing a Mantra ... if THAT was the big change to make people think FB's are dumpster level ... that IS a L2P issue. > > > > > > > > > > "Was" is the key word there though. Balance needs to be measured against how things are _now,_ not from people still holding grudges over where it was half a year ago. > > > > Let me ask you then ... do you think the OP is correct? Is FB 'dead'? If it is ... is it because of a change to one Mantra? > > > > Even better question: Is it actually a problem that FB changes status in PVP, considering the history of this game and it's class changes? Does anyone at this point actually think Anet can make changes to the classes AND maintain balance in them in a way to keep players reasonably happy? > > The question would be, if the changes goal is not to balance or improve, why where they made in the first place? Right ... and I know this isn't popular answer, probably because it's very abstract for most ... but it appears to me the reason for most changes are theme based. Regardless of the reason ... I have yet to play an MMO where classes don't move up and down the PVP ranking because of game changes ... it's simply more pronounced in GW2 because it's obviously NOT balanced for equivalent class performance. > @"otto.5684" said: > You know what would make me happy? Having 6-8 meta or close to meta, builds in sPvP. For a single class? Not a chance ... Over all classes? Even then I would say that's a long shot. Why? because there simply isn't enough strategies to 'win' an encounter to allow for it. The classes that are meta can 1) do damage, 2)avoid/mitigate damage and 3) avoid/mitigate CC. That's not going to be many classes to begin with and of the small number that can ... players that want to win are going to focus on the one that does it the best. That's actually not unique to GW2 ... it's just that other MMO's make a more focused on balancing the available effects and less on the theme of the class. Even so, FB is certainly not dead because of a mantra change. That's absurd and we know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted August 23, 2020 Share Posted August 23, 2020 @"Obtena.7952" We are going back 2 posts now. FB is not dead in sPvP. None FB support options are dead. Also, this is not only due to mantra of solace only. 2 other mantras, weapons and traits in both FB and honor were nerfed. We already covered this. Just before Feb patch we had 4 sPvP builds between A-B tiers: Support menders, A tier. Sage FB, A tier. Symbolist FB, A tier. DH media trapper, B tier. In the end of 2018 we had 7 or 8 A-B tier builds in sPvP. So... what went wrong? None of these changeS, or in the previous patch, or in the 10 before then, there was any theme based changes for guardian. And some changes are mind boggling stupid. They do not change functionality just make something that works stop working, while not changing the functionality. Like LB with Feb patch. All The builds I listed, operate the same way as they did before. They just do not work. Now we have... 1, support menders. Everything else is C tier or worse. None of these changes have anything to do with theme. What more evidence that almost none of them spills to PvE. I agree that this is not a guardian exclusive issue. Some classes have it worse, like Mesmer and Warrior. Nevertheless, there is a clear downward trend, especially after Anet changed the sPvP dev(s). The new people suck. And sPvP as whole currently sucks. And PvE is stagnant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted August 24, 2020 Share Posted August 24, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > > > > > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > > > > > There's nothing more indicative of just how far out of touch with reality these forums are than a thread with Firebrands arguing for buffs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this coming from a Shock Aura & Invul & Heal spamming class like Tempest is borderline insane. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't matter where it comes from ... it's still true. If people think FB needs buffs, they need to L2P in a hard way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, I just looked up your name on the leaderboard and it is rude and beyond cocky to tell people „L2P“ when you aren‘t even ranked in sPvP for this and weren’t ranked the last season. Also L2P is the argument people use who have literally no arguments > > > > > > > > > > Again, you seem to think you can dismiss people's comments based on your assessment of them. That's not going to make your point. > > > > > > > > > > There is an argument here ... this isn't a class deficiency issue, it's a player one ... so Anet doesn't need to fix whatever you think is broken. The 'broken class' is the argument people use who can't play their class. Players need to stop pouting because they can't dominate with a faceroll anymore. > > > > > > > Yes, firebrand _was_ dominant for a long time, but those days have been long gone. > > > > > > Right ... and there isn't any reason for players, skilled or not, to complain about this. It's Anet's standard approach to change classes that have impacts like this for 8 years now, regardless of who is on what leaderboard and how these people think the game should revolve around their status in PVP. The fact is that the actual PVP players worth listening to know this will happen to them and when it does, they don't just moan on about Anet's 'bad' balancing ... they test things and make changes to how they play, make good threads on what's missing, how it affects their success, etc ... > > > > > > Anet nerfing a Mantra ... if THAT was the big change to make people think FB's are dumpster level ... that IS a L2P issue. > > > > > > > "Was" is the key word there though. Balance needs to be measured against how things are _now,_ not from people still holding grudges over where it was half a year ago. > > Let me ask you then ... do you think the OP is correct? Is FB 'dead'? If it is ... is it because of a change to one Mantra? > > Even better question: Is it actually a problem that FB changes status in PVP, considering the history of this game and it's class changes? Does anyone at this point actually think Anet can make changes to the classes AND maintain balance in them in a way to keep players reasonably happy? I'd refer back to my previous posts on this: Anecdotally, I'm not seeing firebrands very often. Those I do see, I'm generally not impressed by. I've run into a couple, but I've also run into a few quite impressive warriors and mesmers as well. So they're not "dead" in the sense of being completely unplayable - skill gaps can make a difference - but they're not regarded as meta any more and certainly are not dominant to the point where it's reasonable to go around calling people delusional for thinking they've been overnerfed. Most of which happened when the Mantra of Solace nerf hit, and they've received additional nerfs _since,_ even though that in itself made them a lot easier to kill and started making them a lot rarer to see as a result. Whatever our individual opinions might be, the sharp drop in population speaks volumes about the player consensus. We wouldn't want a return to the bad old days of "whelp, they have a firebrand and we don't, might as well resign", but I think a few careful un-nerfs would be warranted, and Mantra of Solace losing basically all of its healing on the first two charges and therefore relying primarily on Aegis procs to do anything at all would be a good spot to start looking at. Or, if you're going to take the argument that some things are just unbalanceable and should be left in a bad state permanently to make absolutely sure they never have a chance to return to a past dominant state... well, I'm sure there are people out there who'll claim that mesmer is a prime candidate for an entire profession that should be boonsmited out of sPvP because it's just impossible to balance there. I'd disagree with them, but it's the same line of thinking as what you're putting forward, just applied to a different profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arken.3725 Posted August 24, 2020 Share Posted August 24, 2020 Strong words in this thread. Here's a bit of info coming from spvp(where I assume this discussion is targeted at). Sagebrand(burning) is viable but it is in no way on the same tier as say Tempest, Holo, Daredevil, ect. It can carry for sure if the team is dumb enough to not work around your symbol-spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoow.1694 Posted October 5, 2020 Author Share Posted October 5, 2020 Anet - keep this discussion in mind for the next Balance Patch. We need a stronger version of Mantra of Solace or the whole elite spec will stay useless. Tome skills could all literally stay nerfed, but we need at least a reliable heal skill. Mucho Gracias :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 > @"snoow.1694" said: > Anet - keep this discussion in mind for the next Balance Patch. We need a stronger version of Mantra of Solace or the whole elite spec will stay useless. Tome skills could all literally stay nerfed, but we need at least a reliable heal skill. Mucho Gracias :-) PvP, I would be surprised if there are any changes to FB, or guardian as a whole. Indicators based on some feedback from devs, is that they will nerf eng, thief and maybe necro and rev. PvE, everything works except hammer and to a lesser extent LB. LB is not bad, but could use some extra damage. Virtues and core virtues could use some buffs. But these need to be done in a smart fashion, to create alternatives, which is unlikely to happen. Honestly, while guardian in sPvP is more on the mediocre side, I much rather devs leave it alone. They fucked everything so badly, that just leaving things alone is our best option... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoow.1694 Posted October 5, 2020 Author Share Posted October 5, 2020 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"snoow.1694" said: > > Anet - keep this discussion in mind for the next Balance Patch. We need a stronger version of Mantra of Solace or the whole elite spec will stay useless. Tome skills could all literally stay nerfed, but we need at least a reliable heal skill. Mucho Gracias :-) > > PvP, I would be surprised if there are any changes to FB, or guardian as a whole. Indicators based on some feedback from devs, is that they will nerf eng, thief and maybe necro and rev. > > PvE, everything works except hammer and to a lesser extent LB. LB is not bad, but could use some extra damage. Virtues and core virtues could use some buffs. But these need to be done in a smart fashion, to create alternatives, which is unlikely to happen. > > Honestly, while guardian in sPvP is more on the mediocre side, I much rather devs leave it alone. They kitten everything so badly, that just leaving things alone is our best option... I have watched the stream where they talked a little about the next balance patch - they said they want to bring the general sustain in the game down, nerf a few overperforming specs and are starting to look into a rework of certain boons such as retaliation. I agree that Core Virtues should receive a rework when we compare it to what other classes have as their class specific abilities. Most frustrating is their high cooldown for the little reward they offer. My problem is that ArenaNets intentions were to bring Firebrand down to one level with Core Guardians and Dragonhunters, but they simply overnerfed the whole spec into an unplayable status up in Plat. I have played a ton of games this season and literally got matched up with a Firebrand maybe 3 times in total (of which all got destroyed within 30 seconds of the match), whereas I have seen well performing Core Guards and Dragonhunters everytime I got matched up with Guardians. Asking for a stronger version of Mantra of Solace while keeping all the other nerfed modifiers down would be a compromise at least, even more so if we consider that it is a Mantra with close to 3 seconds cast time, which simply can‘t be recasted in the middle of a teamfight, so the smaller charges should of course heal for more than 290HP every 9 seconds on a Menders Amulet. It is absolutely insane, why would anyone keep getting destroyed as a Firebrand when they can simply switch to Core Guardian and be able to survive a teamfight. I mean think about it, ArenaNet is about to launch on Steam - new Guards will buy the PoF expansion thinking they will have a new cool playstyle to try out just to enter PvP and get ganked/farmed in any game. It is one thing bringing specs down to one level with other specs, it is another thing making them unplayable no matter how good you play it - literally the definition of overnerfed. Mantra of Solace was key element of Firebrand play, since the spec gets heavily focused like every support class and has not a single heal that could replace it - „Receive The Light!“ and Shelter can be easily interrupted by one unblockable Thief Steal/Necro Fear/general CC spam in this meta - which results always in an instant death - Litany Of Wrath doesn’t work without our Meditation Trait, which we can‘t pick since we would lose all damage to gain HP from and Signet Of Resolve is bad because of it‘s insanely high cooldown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 @"snoow.1694" See, stuff like "rework retaliation" is what I fear. They are going to do something semi stupid without any consideration to the required retaliation uptime for radiance to work. And all it needs is to reduce its damage by 50% in PvP. Waste of time and guaranteed major f**k-up in the making. Just like the entire Feb patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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