NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Luclinraider.2317" said:

> This doesn't mean WoW's arena is perfect.

You're right, it doesnt have downedstate.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> > > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > > Just pointing that out : If you remove downstate, what you'll create is a super boonball meta. Where essentially zergs will focus on heals and retal, and let their opponent kill themselves. I dont see how this breaks boonball at all.

> >

> > wait, isn't it already the case?

>

> Yes. I dont see a reason to make this worse.

 

It's just both ways with you people lol. No down state makes stealth burst classes OP but we'll also somehow get a more bunker meta! Please, during no down state comped zergs were constantly clouded to death by pugs so I don't know where this theory comes from.

 

More bunker boonball than we have now is literally impossible unless we'll get minstrel revs and necros too.

[Mala.3861]

Make it permanent? No. A thousand times, no.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

Oh how grand. Everything downstate is merged. I'm sure context wasn't lost anywhere along the way.

 

D:

[Naxos.2503]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

> > > > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > > > Just pointing that out : If you remove downstate, what you'll create is a super boonball meta. Where essentially zergs will focus on heals and retal, and let their opponent kill themselves. I dont see how this breaks boonball at all.

> > >

> > > wait, isn't it already the case?

> >

> > Yes. I dont see a reason to make this worse.

>

> It's just both ways with you people lol. No down state makes stealth burst classes OP but we'll also somehow get a more bunker meta! Please, during no down state comped zergs were constantly clouded to death by pugs so I don't know where this theory comes from.

>

> More bunker boonball than we have now is literally impossible unless we'll get minstrel revs and necros too.

 

Yes, it will. All it does is boost -extremes-. No nuance allowed. No middle builds. You're either meta, or you're not. Diversity gone. Why is it that during No downstate the majority of fighters were thieves and dragonhunters huh ?

[ledernierrempart.6871]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

>

> Yes, it will. All it does is boost -extremes-. No nuance allowed. No middle builds. You're either meta, or you're not. Diversity gone. Why is it that during No downstate the majority of fighters were thieves and dragonhunters huh ?

 

and pewpew soulbeast.

 

it does not boost extreme, it just push players to play high burst range builds because it is the most effective way to kill fast without taking much risk.

middle builds died with the overall damage nerf we got in WvW.

now you either use a bunker build because it is stronger than ever at surviving or the most cheesy burst build you can play to somehow try to compensate for the nerf.

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> Oh how grand. Everything downstate is merged. I'm sure context wasn't lost anywhere along the way.

>

> D:

 

In order to encourage people to go to extremes on both sides mix the conversations and confuse everyone. Perhaps someone was a fan of Mad Libs, insert noun here, verb there, and adjective over there. Mixed varied threads go boom.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

Or more likely because a very vocal few were spamming the boards with threads about something that is really low on the "actual problems with WvW" list...

[kai.5149]

just keep downstate in wvw and make all stomps instant and only in melee range (so no interaction is lost) the problem here really is the long time takes to cast the stomp

[Naxos.2503]

> @"kai.5149" said:

> just keep downstate in wvw and make all stomps instant and only in melee range (so no interaction is lost) the problem here really is the long time takes to cast the stomp

 

Wouldn't *necessarily* make it instant, but yeah, the normal finisher move takes way too long. I basically just kill them with skills because it's faster. If it was faster, it'd certainly save up some cooldown. On the other hand, finishers should no longer work while stealthed or teleported. That's an unfair advantage that still remains to this day

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > @"kai.5149" said:

> > just keep downstate in wvw and make all stomps instant and only in melee range (so no interaction is lost) the problem here really is the long time takes to cast the stomp

>

> Wouldn't *necessarily* make it instant, but yeah, the normal finisher move takes way too long. I basically just kill them with skills because it's faster. If it was faster, it'd certainly save up some cooldown. On the other hand, finishers should no longer work while stealthed or teleported. That's an unfair advantage that still remains to this day

 

Just in regards to finishing....if not all defeated have to run back then....

 

As its is buried here now, create more a difference in the defeated state so there is more meaning in cleaved vs stomped/spiked. Stomped, no rezzing, you have to respawn. Cleaved defeated can still be gotten back up if your side wins. With that you can leave the slower animation. Higher risk, higher reward, more gameplay strategy.

[Naxos.2503]

> @"TheGrimm.5624" said:

> > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > > @"kai.5149" said:

> > > just keep downstate in wvw and make all stomps instant and only in melee range (so no interaction is lost) the problem here really is the long time takes to cast the stomp

> >

> > Wouldn't *necessarily* make it instant, but yeah, the normal finisher move takes way too long. I basically just kill them with skills because it's faster. If it was faster, it'd certainly save up some cooldown. On the other hand, finishers should no longer work while stealthed or teleported. That's an unfair advantage that still remains to this day

>

> Just in regards to finishing....if not all defeated have to run back then....

>

> As its is buried here now, create more a difference in the defeated state so there is more meaning in cleaved vs stomped/spiked. Stomped, no rezzing, you have to respawn. Cleaved defeated can still be gotten back up if your side wins. With that you can leave the slower animation. Higher risk, higher reward, more gameplay strategy.

 

What about giving some class skills a bonus damage on downed, similar to the Warclaw ? Might actually give some obsolete skills a new life and mix up the meta a bit

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> What about giving some class skills a bonus damage on downed, similar to the Warclaw ? Might actually give some obsolete skills a new life and mix up the meta a bit

 

Could see these as counters to skills that allow people to revive faster.

[Jaruselka.5943]

Engies have been living with “no down state” for over 8 years...garbage DS skills...

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"Jaruselka.5943" said:

> Engies have been living with “no down state” for over 8 years...garbage DS skills...

 

I love pulling people over to spike me faster. HUGS!!!!!!

[scerevisiae.1972]

Most of the people against removing downed state are only against it because of concerns about 1-shot builds but these people fail to realise there would of course be rebalancing of base HP, etc if downed state were removed.

 

Very very few people actually like downed state and that's really the core issue. Personally I think it's the single worst game mechanic ever put into a game and is the #1 reason why sPVP failed so hard.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"scerevisiae.1972" said:

> Most of the people against removing downed state are only against it because of concerns about 1-shot builds but these people fail to realise there would of course be rebalancing of base HP, etc if downed state were removed.

>

> Very very few people actually like downed state and that's really the core issue. Personally I think it's the single worst game mechanic ever put into a game and is the #1 reason why sPVP failed so hard.

No matter how much you repeat this, it wont make it true. The polls - even the bad ones - show that roughly 70% is in favor of keeping it. So stop lying.

 

Also, no there is no "of course there would be balancing so most people would accept it then" involved in any argument. Removing downedstate is removing downedstate, period. And thats why we will never have a good argument - because most people against removing downedstate **do** accept nerfs and rebalancing, while those in favor of removing it **do not** accept nerfs and rebalancing by definition of removing it.

 

There is no compromise on this. The arguments are incompatible.

[Doug.4930]

> @"scerevisiae.1972" said:

> Most of the people against removing downed state are only against it because of concerns about 1-shot builds but these people fail to realise there would of course be rebalancing of base HP, etc if downed state were removed.

>

> Very very few people actually like downed state and that's really the core issue. Personally I think it's the single worst game mechanic ever put into a game and is the #1 reason why sPVP failed so hard.

 

I wish this was true.

 

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> No matter how much you repeat this, it wont make it true. The polls - even the bad ones - show that roughly 70% is in favor of keeping it. So stop lying.

 

But he's right. Because most people who play this game play it casually. And downstate is another tool in the more casual players arsenal that prevents them from being obliterated by players with superior skill and experience. Downstate ensures they remain safe in their blob.

 

Same reason that posting nerfs in a specific classes sub forum is shouted down by the people who main that class. Its not always because the class doesn't need nerfs, its quite often the case that those people don't want to see a mechanic that they benefit from nerfed. Whether its overpowered or not is completely irrelevant to them.

 

@"scerevisiae.1972"

Unfortunately 70% of this players population are players that ball up into blobs. Downstate provides a crutch to 70% of players. So yea I'm afraid the argument of most people wanting downstate removed just isn't true, regardless how much people like us wish it were.

[MLinni.6109]

You should have seen the amounts of complaining during the no downstate week and the number of "absentees" who took a week off.

Our system is simply designed around downstates. Downstates promote teamwork and add a layer of complexity to the game.

(Do I try to ress our people while the enemies are bombing us? etc.).

We have downed state skills. We have traits working with/around downed state. We have fricking powers working with/around downed state.

Imo they could have kept the Warclaw stomp to quickly finish off people, but it requires people being out of combat.

Yes, the burst buddies want to do their stealth, nearly instakill combo and kill off people in a small group before teleporting away

twice for 1200" to safety. Does that require "skill"? Does it lead to engaging gameplay? Hell no.

Ok, that's me, waiting for the next week no downstate post.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Doug.4930" said:

> But he's right. Because most people who play this game play it casually. And downstate is another tool in the more casual players arsenal that prevents them from being obliterated by players with superior skill and experience.

 

You just explained why he is wrong.

 

That is one aspect of downed state, yes - it provides a balance check in combat that assist those less skilled to overcome and defeat those more skilled, instead of having no hope. A kind of force equalizer which allows flex in numbers. Because WvW is casual for an **overwhelming majority**. For others - those more skilled - it adds another tactical layer to combat instead of just making it pewpew braindead like your average fps shooter.

 

Yes, it makes combat *harder* for the side with less numbers, unless they got the skill to weigh it up.

 

But for some reason, people dont want hard fights - **they just want to win**. And some people claim these are the guys with "skill", **hah**.

 

But I suppose that is the perfect display of how the argument will never ever get anywhere.

[Henry.5713]

The downed state system adds another layer of complexity, as far as I am concerned at least. You need to know how to play around downed enemies and how to abuse bad players going for disastrous resses. There are instances where you are able to bait even full groups into downing to your cleave.

 

And frankly, I assume they would give in and add additional panic buttons and or defensive auto traits or simply greatly increase base defenses / decrease burst damage if they were to entirely remove the downed state. It is specifically in place to allow for bursty builds as it provides bad players with a chance of recovery from their bad play. Having a few weeks of no downed state doesn't give people enough time to figure out how to fully abuse the situation with new roaming and especially ganking builds. I can only imagine how much people would complain about gankers picking off their entire groups again and again.

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"MLinni.6109" said:

> You should have seen the amounts of complaining during the no downstate week and the number of "absentees" who took a week off.

 

I think this is a your mileage will vary item. Saw increased queue times during the week across more maps, but can't say for other servers and links. But was that for increased XP, DS or the mix of the two? Where your statement doesn't hold as much weight is if it really killed off populations, ANet would not have replayed the event. Each time we see similar statements but if they were true we would never have the event re-occur.

 

 

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> The downed state system adds another layer of complexity, as far as I am concerned at least. You need to know how to play around downed enemies and how to abuse bad players going for disastrous resses. There are instances where you are able to bait even full groups into downing to your cleave.

>

> And frankly, I assume they would give in and add additional panic buttons and or defensive auto traits or simply greatly increase base defenses / decrease burst damage if they were to entirely remove the downed state. It is specifically in place to allow for bursty builds as it provides bad players with a chance of recovery from their bad play. Having a few weeks of no downed state doesn't give people enough time to figure out how to fully abuse the situation with new roaming and especially ganking builds. I can only imagine how much people would complain about gankers picking off their entire groups again and again.

 

Again, personally I agree there is additional gameplay in downstate. I also think it could use adjustments. I do think threads about it lead people to extremes and that a number of people say remove because they can't see it being addressed in a manner that addresses the issue they see with it, and people can't come to terms with where others see issue with it. I don't think I would tie it down to builds though. I don't think it benefits either glass or tank. I think what some of posters are saying is it supports organised play which is good, but it benefits numbers more which is bad. Which is also why you see mixed responses from people that say they run solo, havoc, warband or zerg. It's not a simple matter. But it is one that is valid for discussion, at least in my opinion.

[Jilora.9524]

All I know is there are about 4 vocal in this thread that wants it removed. 3 of them if you click their name have teef roaming videos. The other is Doug also a teef who just said this.

"But he's right. Because most people who play this game play it casually. And downstate is another tool in the more casual players arsenal that prevents them from being obliterated by players with superior skill and experience."

He considers himself superior skill level because he kills these casuals as a teef but actual that's wrong

He is a players with superior skill and experience who can't kill these casuals with less experience because of downstate and needs it removed.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Jilora.9524" said:

> All I know is there are about 4 vocal in this thread that wants it removed. 3 of them if you click their name have teef roaming videos. The other is Doug also a teef who just said this.

> "But he's right. Because most people who play this game play it casually. And downstate is another tool in the more casual players arsenal that prevents them from being obliterated by players with superior skill and experience."

> He considers himself superior skill level because he kills these casuals as a teef but actual that's wrong

> He is a players with superior skill and experience who can't kill these casuals with less experience because of downstate and needs it removed.

 

I think it's funny how one of the greatest taboo's of WvW roaming are builds with extreme mobility repeatedly poking and dropping combat until they succeed, but the same players take issue with the existence of downed state. Maybe because without downed state they are able to fully indulge themselves in this behavior that no one in the history of ever has considered to be skillful.

 

Again as I'd said in an earlier comment, I love to eat the tail of zergs often doing so on Necro setting up Wurm in advantageous locations or pre-casting Spectral Walk. I can usually manage to repeatedly down players in quick succession while still escaping alive. I'm not asking for downed state to be removed however because I don't think this kind of game play deserves to be rewarded. I could be a tremendous pain if downed state didn't exist and depending on the terrain it would be very hard to stop me.

Same idea with mobility stacked builds engaging outnumbered fights and kiting them to death. There is more to combat than killing.