Mirage runes

[Ryouzanpaku.1273]

Toughness ?? is this some sick joke?

[zealex.9410]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @zealex.9410 said:

> > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > > > Keep in mind, Barrier is capped at 50% of your max health.

> > >

> > > And starts decaying 2s after application. Being able to pump out leap finishers will let you maintain it for longer.

> >

> > How many leap finishers are we talking about lmao. And besides i dough this run will be super strong weaver already gets passive barrier from traits.

>

> Well, you're obviously not going to be able to stack like a scourge, but between jaunt and phase retreat you should be able to maintain barrier while you're engaging for an offensive action.

>

> Disclaimer: this totally isn't worth taking mirage just to get jaunt for, but it would be sorta cute to do.

 

You dont only get jaunt theres the sword ambush in there somewhere

[Amadeus.5687]

 

> @zealex.9410 said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > @zealex.9410 said:

> > > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > > > > Keep in mind, Barrier is capped at 50% of your max health.

> > > >

> > > > And starts decaying 2s after application. Being able to pump out leap finishers will let you maintain it for longer.

> > >

> > > How many leap finishers are we talking about lmao. And besides i dough this run will be super strong weaver already gets passive barrier from traits.

> >

> > Well, you're obviously not going to be able to stack like a scourge, but between jaunt and phase retreat you should be able to maintain barrier while you're engaging for an offensive action.

> >

> > Disclaimer: this totally isn't worth taking mirage just to get jaunt for, but it would be sorta cute to do.

>

> You dont only get jaunt theres the sword ambush in there somewhere

 

Also sword skill 3 is a leap finisher aswell, Jaunt, Sword Ambush, Sword 3 and if you use staff as second weapon we get phase retreat! depending on the barrier it could be fun

[lifeshoutslive.4163]

I actually like Superior Rune of the Weaver for a defensive staff build - and Renegade is also workable on hybrid, these 7 % of condition damage isn't bad while the new grieving stat allows for crit heavy hybrid builds that profit from the ferocity on the Rune.

[Carighan.6758]

Hrm, come on ANet, you can do better. Less ICDs, less weird procs:

 

**Rune of the Mirage, 6-piece**

You heal yourself for 20% of the damage you avoided with your Evade or Mirage Cloak.

 

Now ofc, you might say "But wait Cari, this is still significantly stronger for Daredevils!". And you'd be correct. But I firmly believe that unnecessary complexity is the root of all evil (meaning it's the reason Thieves exist as a class). ICDs should not be used unless absolutely unavoidable. Plus this would reward avoiding "big hits".

 

[Esplen.3940]

Oooookay, here we go. Lessons in stats and compounding power (not the trait).

 

Grievers is a bad stat atm. It might become a good stat for certain builds, but don't count on it. The reason why it's bad is because it tries to be a hybrid setup like Vipers (which ends up being a Condi stat setup, not a hybrid), but it gives lopsided stats.

 

There are a few reasons why Viper is king for Condi right now, and one of the leading reasons is that **it provides Expertise**. This is extremely important.to note as Condition Damage scales with one other stat, Condition Duration (aka Expertise).

 

So, right off the bat, we can see that Griever's doesn't give us Expertise, meaning the Condition Damage is going to be pretty pitiful.

 

Now, as a recap, Grievers provides Power/Condition Damage + Precision/Ferocity (Primary + Secondary), Viper gives Power/Condition Damage + Precision/Expertise, and Berserkers gives Power + Precision/Ferocity.

 

Ok, so we know that Condition Damage scales well with Expertise, but is there anything else it scales on? Power and Precision to some degree.

Woah there, Esplen, Condition Damage doesn't scale on Power and Precision. You're a stupid one, Esplen!

 

That's where you're wrong. Almost every source of Conditions in the game applies it via a strike. This was a change a while back to streamline damaging abilities. Now, because it's a strike, a portion of your damage will always be Power-Based. Therefore, having some Power is never bad (at least, until we see a boss with Damage Reflect).

 

Okay, so what about Precision? Obviously, Precision will increase the effectiveness of Power, but also, there are many Conditions that are applied via crits. Now, this depends entirely on your build/class and sometimes the access is only 1 or 2 traits, but it ends up being a very important factor in Condition Builds. That's why Rabid, Dire, and Rampagers were powerful Condition stat combinations (and eventually Sinister, when that one came out). It's because they provided Condition Damage as well as not wasting any stats in defensiveness (because most damage in PvE can be negated with dodging or positioning).

 

Alright, so if Power and Precision both buff Condition Damage, then obviously Ferocity helps as well. Yes and no. Yes, it will help, but at that point you're playing a Power build, not a Condition build. Power builds scale off of Power (Damage), Precision (Critical Chance), and Ferocity (Critical Damage). These all multiply together to create the large Power numbers that you (used to) see in the PvE meta.

 

Woah, but we're trying to build a condi set, no?

 

Right, but if you're stating Power, Precision, and Ferocity out of your 3 or 4 stat choices, then what's the 4th stat doing to assist those 3? Nothing. Additionally, the Condition Damage will not have Expertise to back it up, making it very weak. At this point, you can see that Grievers is just a slightly weaker Zerker set. But what if you have decent condition application? It really doesn't matter. You spread your stats too thin trying to do both that you end up being weaker in both. With Power builds, the goal is to have as much Power and Ferocity as possible with your Precision at a spot where you either get as high as possible, or reach 100% Critical Chance. By sliding Condition Damage into that stat combination, you lower Power, Ferocity, and Precision to gain Condition Damage that doesn't get it's direct multiplier (Expertise).

 

Now, if you had excess Expertise because of some new rune, food, trait, utility, buff, etc and you were running Viper's, then you'd slot off a few pieces to get more damage. In this case, it's okay to get some Grievers, right Esplen?

**WRONG**. At that point, you would slot out the extra Viper pieces with Sinister for an undiluted Condi setup without Expertise.

 

So why is Grievers bad? If you can't already tell someone that Grievers is bad at this point, then either you haven't read, you got caught up on my statement of Condition Damage scales with Power and Precision, or you just want to argue about the theoretical future where someone has a setup that somehow makes Grievers wanted (even though it still doesn't make sense for you to want it).

 

#Gearing Rule of Thumbs

**If you're running a Condition build, you want Condition Damage and Expertise. If you don't need anymore Expertise, you run Sinister.

If you're running a Power build, you want Power, Precision, and Ferocity. If you don't need anymore Precision, you run Valkyrie (or just waste the Precision).**

 

Wasting the Precision is actually fine. As a Deadeye, just don't take Silent Scope (it makes your Kneel cost more Initiative), or as a Renegade, don't take Roiling Mists. If you absolutely have to run those traits, that's fine because you might not always be flanking or at full endurance, respectively. Plus as a Deadeye, you convert Precision into Ferocity so even if you have too much, it's not enough (but I wouldn't run Assassins).

 

Now, for newer stat combinations... if they end up similar to Diviner or Deadshot (with Ferocity or Power replacing Vitality), we may see some new combinations for gearing come up. As it stands, Vipers is the best setup for Condi because it blanket gives everything a Condi build wants, without wasting stats. Until Expertise is available on a tri-stat gear, or as a primary on a stat set alongside Condition Damage, we're just going to be looking at slightly different Viper's with the Power and Precision moved around or one of them replaced.

 

# Tl;dr:

### On a Condi build, we're not looking to replace Condition Damage or Expertise.

 

[Hibiskus.8294]

Ok....honestly i never thought that DD could benefit more from that rune than we do....but yes you are right, also there are some classes that have traits (thief) that heal them for every critical hit they do (heal is 15% from the crit dmg), or Spellbreaker trait (sun and moon style, 7% health for each critical hit when wearing a dagger in offhand), or Soulbeast Predators Cunning (when you apply Posion to a foe, steal some health from them....)...oh wait...maybe they could make the 6th stat like: steal some health from a foe when you inflict torment and / or bleeding on the foe...maybe and instead of or....but a CD from 20 seconds on a rune? that is why i never use some runes that have a high CD on the 6th stat...

[Pyroatheist.9031]

@"Esplen.3940" : it's worth noting that you're operating under the basic assumption that all conditions will tick for their full duration. This is reasonable for PvE, but a harder sell in PvP and blatantly false in WvW.

 

For our WvW build optimization, we're generally assuming that conditions are going to be fully cleansed after around 5 seconds. At that point the target is either cleansed in the group or is dead. Given that basic assumption, you want to maximize potency over those first 5 seconds. Condition duration becomes much less valuable because you never get those long duration conditions to tick. Grievers provides a higher spike in the first 5 seconds because it lets the power damage component hit higher.

 

Probably worth mentioning that this analysis doesn't apply to mesmer builds because condie mesmer sucks in WvW. For other classes this is what we do though.

[Esplen.3940]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> @"Esplen.3940" : it's worth noting that you're operating under the basic assumption that all conditions will tick for their full duration. This is reasonable for PvE, but a harder sell in PvP and blatantly false in WvW.

>

> For our WvW build optimization, we're generally assuming that conditions are going to be fully cleansed after around 5 seconds. At that point the target is either cleansed in the group or is dead. Given that basic assumption, you want to maximize potency over those first 5 seconds. Condition duration becomes much less valuable because you never get those long duration conditions to tick. Grievers provides a higher spike in the first 5 seconds because it lets the power damage component hit higher.

>

> Probably worth mentioning that this analysis doesn't apply to mesmer builds because condie mesmer kitten in WvW. For other classes this is what we do though.

 

Conditions were changed. Excess duration is done arbitrarily at the beginning or end of the duration.

 

>[[Wiki]](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Duration#Rounding_and_damage_packets)

>While the actual duration of a condition is never rounded, the display in a skill's tooltip will show the duration rounded to the nearest quarter of a second (0s, ¼, ½, ¾ and 1s). Conditions which inflict damage over time (bleeding, burning, torment and poison) deal damage each full second and a fractional damage either at the beginning or end of their duration. Thus, if a skill that inflicts poison with a duration of 6 seconds has its duration increased to 6.9 seconds through traits, it will show 7s in its tooltips, but will actually only deal full damage 6 times, the remaining duration will deal a fractional damage.

 

But you don't typically want to run Zerker or Viper in WvW for other reasons. PvE min-max stats are different than PvP and Griever is still pretty bad when you're better off using Sinister to improve potency with no defensive capabilities.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @"Esplen.3940" : it's worth noting that you're operating under the basic assumption that all conditions will tick for their full duration. This is reasonable for PvE, but a harder sell in PvP and blatantly false in WvW.

> >

> > For our WvW build optimization, we're generally assuming that conditions are going to be fully cleansed after around 5 seconds. At that point the target is either cleansed in the group or is dead. Given that basic assumption, you want to maximize potency over those first 5 seconds. Condition duration becomes much less valuable because you never get those long duration conditions to tick. Grievers provides a higher spike in the first 5 seconds because it lets the power damage component hit higher.

> >

> > Probably worth mentioning that this analysis doesn't apply to mesmer builds because condie mesmer kitten in WvW. For other classes this is what we do though.

>

> Conditions were changed. Excess duration is done arbitrarily at the beginning or end of the duration.

 

You missed the point entirely there. The mathematical calculation of condition duration isn't the issue. The point is that almost all relevant conditions are applied at a base duration that is sufficient to hit the 5s duration breakpoint of kill time. Anything past that gets heavily diminishing returns on realistic effect in WvW fights.

[zealex.9410]

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> Hrm, come on ANet, you can do better. Less ICDs, less weird procs:

>

> **Rune of the Mirage, 6-piece**

> You heal yourself for 20% of the damage you avoided with your Evade or Mirage Cloak.

>

> Now ofc, you might say "But wait Cari, this is still significantly stronger for Daredevils!". And you'd be correct. But I firmly believe that unnecessary complexity is the root of all evil (meaning it's the reason Thieves exist as a class). ICDs should not be used unless absolutely unavoidable. Plus this would reward avoiding "big hits".

>

 

I think in this case it is unavoidable. U can lower the idc but completely removing it will make this rune flat out insane for condi thief.

[Lalainnia.3598]

Does it even matter if the heal is huge what if you take a tiny bit of damage evade the next attack and it triggers would be partially wasted.

[Esplen.3940]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> You missed the point entirely there. The mathematical calculation of condition duration isn't the issue. The point is that almost all relevant conditions are applied at a base duration that is sufficient to hit the 5s duration breakpoint of kill time. Anything past that gets heavily diminishing returns on realistic effect in WvW fights.

 

The counterpoint is still valid: You're better off using Sinister.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > You missed the point entirely there. The mathematical calculation of condition duration isn't the issue. The point is that almost all relevant conditions are applied at a base duration that is sufficient to hit the 5s duration breakpoint of kill time. Anything past that gets heavily diminishing returns on realistic effect in WvW fights.

>

> The counterpoint is still valid: You're better off using Sinister.

 

Depends on the scaling of the skills. Some classes (like dh or probably firebrand) are gonna scale better with griever due to the crit damage mods. Some classes (like scourge) have no power coefficients to speak of and would be better with sinister or even something tankier.

[Allarius.5670]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> The bug was with Mantras not counting towards it, e.g. Mantra of Recovery does not grant 3 Might when you finish charging, only when consuming a charge. This bug still exists. It also happens with traits (Mantra of Recovery does not trigger Mender's Purity, not sure if it triggers Healing Prism).

 

I think this is not a bug and is intended to function this way so you can precast the healing mantra and not put any on-heal effects on cooldown. It is a little weird if Mantras are now intended to be cast in combat, but I could see how an instant cast mantra charge gives greater control than the channel.

 

 

[Esplen.3940]

> @Allarius.5670 said:

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > The bug was with Mantras not counting towards it, e.g. Mantra of Recovery does not grant 3 Might when you finish charging, only when consuming a charge. This bug still exists. It also happens with traits (Mantra of Recovery does not trigger Mender's Purity, not sure if it triggers Healing Prism).

>

> I think this is not a bug and is intended to function this way so you can precast the healing mantra and not put any on-heal effects on cooldown. It is a little weird if Mantras are now intended to be cast in combat, but I could see how an instant cast mantra charge gives greater control than the channel.

 

MoR is a heal skill and at worst performs the best that Power Return can (when traited, it's effectively using weak + strong Power Return at the same time). If you pre-cast it, your on-heal cd's will go off cd by the time you use your first charge.

 

Just a note: The standard cooldown on on-heal triggers is 10s. There are exceptions, such as Descent Into Madness' 35s cooldown, or Rune of Tormenting having a 20s cd (all other runes with on-heal trigger have 10s cd). There are also some with no ICD, such as Mender's Purity.

None of them trigger off of charging Mantra of Recovery even though the heal is stronger or equal to Power Return.

[Vyriis.6258]

Because of the way Mirage is supposed to deal damage, through the use of dodging, you will proc the 6 effect randomly even if not needed. Making that set bonus near useless. Also why has no one brought up the fact that this is just a copy/paste of Undead runes with a different (worse) 6 bonus? (if it was mentioned I'm sorry).

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Undead (Stat bonuses are the same with the 6th bonus being 7% tough convert to condi)

[Sebbl.2806]

> @Curunen.8729 said:

> Soulbeast and Weaver runes look sick though (if Soulbeast works with Illusions as pets).

 

Speaking of which:

Does the 6th bonus of Ranger runes also include Mesmer illusions? I didn't find any hard (meaning: post-2015) evidence.

It should, though, according to the wiki.

[Esplen.3940]

> @Sebbl.2806 said:

> > @Curunen.8729 said:

> > Soulbeast and Weaver runes look sick though (if Soulbeast works with Illusions as pets).

>

> Speaking of which:

> Does the 6th bonus of Ranger runes also include Mesmer illusions? I didn't find any hard (meaning: post-2015) evidence.

> It should, though, according to the wiki.

 

6th of Ranger works with Pets, Minions, Illusions, etc.

6th of Soulbeast only works with Pets, afaik.

[Curunen.8729]

Damn, in that case Soulbeast runes are meh...

 

Anyway as cool as Weaver runes could be, I'm most likely going to stick with Traveler because I'm lazy when it comes to movement speed.

[messiah.1908]

fyi the new runes wont be available in pvp :(

[Abelisk.4527]

> @messiah.1908 said:

> fyi the new runes wont be available in pvp :(

 

I doubt that. The HoT spec runes were available.

[messiah.1908]

> @Abelisk.4527 said:

> > @messiah.1908 said:

> > fyi the new runes wont be available in pvp :(

>

> I doubt that. The HoT spec runes were available.

 

came from anet (check the pvp thread about rebirth rune. they state all the new rune wont be available in pvp)

[Abelisk.4527]

Keyword: for now. They might adjust the stats to fit the PvP scene but we'll see.

[Tseison.4659]

Or have it so whenever you pass through mirrors you gain 2s of stealth ( no CD ) and then change the toughness to more of gain vigor upon being hit?