Dagger storm is joke when comparing to tornado - buff ideas.

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132"

> >

> > Let us see, hmmmmm

> >

> >

> > https://imgur.com/Z97N1q4

> > https://imgur.com/iip2bMF

> > https://imgur.com/h3NIVZ2

> > https://imgur.com/blsfeAg

> > https://imgur.com/zkCGJrg

> > By looking through this I realized that as a mesmer dodging/avoiding backstab does jack kitten as thief counters you so kitten hard that you will die anyways.

>

> You seem to be running around with 25 vulnerability a lot. Maybe ... *dont* do that? You will find that your survivability improves by a massive amount if you decide to not have 25 stacks of vulnerability on you at all times.

 

PvP forums is the true endgame. The things people type out to own each other are works of art... I tried to make fun of this and it's impossible.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > > > > >

> > > > > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> > > > >

> > > > > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

> > > >

> > > > Yes it does, I play the class as it's my main. D/P and thief damage in general is out of control. The class has too much damage, mobility, pressure. CC, and stealth. Having a thief on you guarantees you will die no matter what, much like holo and power rev.

> > >

> > > No it doesnt, and you dont. Lets take a look at an example, yes? [This](

) part of an MAT VoD by Sindrener. He attacks thief. The squishiest class in the game. So, how hard does he hit? 10k? *11k*? .... 5k. 4600 from backstab, 380 from shadow siphoning and 199 from venom. Pretty far from 10k isnt it? Now imagine if his target wasnt a thief, and wasnt as squishy. It would look even worse.

> >

> > good find, it shows that he teleported 2k units from stealth to land a 4,6k stab, with ~500 siphon hit, followed by 3 autos, that did 500 + 500 +2k dmg before thief managed to dodge away from him. That is 8-9k dmg

> > To add to that he runs full utility thief build, with 3 utility traitlines, and 0 damaging utilities, to top it off he did it out of combat so no lead attacks :D

> > He also attacked after weak-strikes ran out so he lost 7% dmg bonus for hits after backstab

>

> Looks like its under 1800 units actually, since swipe wasnt max range. And yes, it was 5k burst, followed by autos he was only able to use because the thief had burned through all of his stunbreaks. Obviously the 3 autos do not count towards burst. Its 5k burst. 3 damage traitlines. SA, Trickery and DD are all *damage* traitlines. The fact that they have some utility doesnt change that fact. Critical Strikes has a fair bit of utility. And yes, it was out of combat. Thats how thief bursts. Why are you mentioning it as if its a big gotcha? And Weakening Strike wont affect the backstab, so it wont affect the burst.

>

> So, to recap. 5k burst, max. Able to do it from <1800 range if you burn a stunbreak and condi clear (note: A few other classes can do the same kind of thing). Not so dangerous now, is it? And far from 10k. Which isnt surprising, the thief wasnt running around with 25 stacks of vulnerability.

 

Shadowstep isn't a condi removal on activation. He did all this with literally ZERO risk, because he can instantly port back to his shadowstep return for THIRTY seconds and remove 3 conditions.

 

Thief does far too much burst for the amount of survival, mobility, stealth, and pressure(daze/basi stun) it has.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Fixing thiefs dominance in pvp/wvw(small scale) is more complicated than damage numbers.

>

> * Swipe is no longer unblockable

> _Unblockable daze makes thief too powerful at pressuring and securing kills in a post-feb patch meta_

 

Irrelevant change, but sure.

 

> * Hide in shadows stealth reduced to 2s

 

>Nerfing hide in shadows

The healing skill sees play for the first time in, what, 5 years, and you lot immediately want to nerf it. Id call it a joke, but it aint funny.

 

> * Hidden thief duration reduced to 1 second

> * Concealing restoration reduced to 0 seconds

 

More "I hate stealth because Im bad and cant punish it" changes. Hilariously one of them is just saying "yeah were making the minor trait do *literally* nothing. Do you have any good changes at all in this list, or is it all irrational thief hatred drivel?

 

> * Stealth no longer stacks duration(Works like super speed)

> _Stealth is too strong and has too high of uptime_

 

Spoken too soon. This one is *almost* good. Doesnt work though because of Shadow Refuge, or concealing restoration. Simple fix though. Just make it so it has an absolute max total duration. 6 seconds in stealth, and no matter how much you use stealth, youre out.

 

> * Shadowstep return no longer breaks stun

> _Thief is too hard to secure kills on and lock down. You can also use shadowstep offensively with 0 risk which is bad and makes it too easy to engage/+1. All reward, no risk._

 

You mean, 0 risk besides the fact that if your opponent waits it out and stuns/condi-bombs you you die immediately.

 

> * Dash no longer gives swiftness

> _Thief has too much mobility with dash. If you want perma swiftness, you should have to take acrobatics - daredevil invalidates an entire trait line and is bloated_

 

Hahahahaha. And there are the stupid changes back. Ignoring that you basically kill any reason to pick Dash, you also seem to not know that Daredevil doesnt invalidate acrobatics. *Acrobatics* invalidates acrobatics. Ever since it was nerfed hard, the traitline is just really bad. Hell, take S/D thieves. They *never* used Daredevil, because Acrobatics was better for them. Until it was nerfed so hard even they had to drop it, and since no alternative exists (SA sucks for them, CS sucks for everyone) theyre forced to pick Daredevil.

 

> * Speed runes redesigned to give 4s of 99% move speed when you gain swiftness on a 20s ICD

> _Everyone who can utilize this rune has too much mobility_

 

... Thief doesnt use this rune? Why is this here?

 

> * Marauders resillience no longer gives vitality

> _You can use berserker amulet and still have 15k hp, which means thief gets +25% damage by taking daredevil. Too powerful, and makes daredevil give too much damage for a single trait line while also invalidating any non-daredevil builds for thief thus lowering thief build diversity._

 

????. This is not how any of this works. Ignoring that its not 25% at all, it also only increases their hp. And its funny that you think it invalidates non-DD builds, when you consider that it exists since april last year. You know, including during that entire several months long period where core thief was the optimal build and Daredevil sucked? This is also the first time I have seen someone complain about "power gives vitality" traits which, keep in mind, *multiple classes have*. In fact, on other classes its *stronger*. Thief gets 7%. Warrior and Engineer get 10%. Oh and fun fact: Warrior doesnt use theirs.

 

> * ALL stolen attacks damage reduced by 25%

> _All steal attacks do far too much damage and are your main source of damage and burst, especially if you take improv._

 

*????*. I figured if youre going to pretend that you play thief, youd do at least a little bit of research. But no. There is only one steal attack even used for damage regularly, and thats essence sap (Which is apparently bugged and does more damage than intended). And improv? No one has taken improve in months. DA sucks now, and you dont have the space.

 

> * Plasma no longer gives alacrity, stability, or quickness. All other boons duration reduced by half.

> _This is just obscene. It makes mesmer a liability to have on your team on top of making mesmer vs thief completely one sided._

 

This one is almost reasonable as well. However, its odd you remove alacrity and stability instead of, yknow, resistance? The whole reason thief vs condi mesmer is so one-sided?

 

Still, 2 almost reasonable changes among a sea of hilariously unreasonable changes. Based on the fundamental misunderstanding that thief is dominant in PvP (let alone small scale skirmishes in WvW, where thief isnt even good. Thief is a noobstomper in WvW, but bad against actually good enemies. If you want an actually good roamer, Scrapper, Holo, Ranger, Soulbeast, Power Rev, even Reaper are all much better). Thief is always picked in PvP because of shortbow 5. The rest of the class really doesnt matter. Worse yet, you cant nerf it in any way. Either thief is always picked once per team, or its never picked at all (basically think current warrior/mesmer, just even worse).

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > > > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes it does, I play the class as it's my main. D/P and thief damage in general is out of control. The class has too much damage, mobility, pressure. CC, and stealth. Having a thief on you guarantees you will die no matter what, much like holo and power rev.

> > > >

> > > > No it doesnt, and you dont. Lets take a look at an example, yes? [This](

) part of an MAT VoD by Sindrener. He attacks thief. The squishiest class in the game. So, how hard does he hit? 10k? *11k*? .... 5k. 4600 from backstab, 380 from shadow siphoning and 199 from venom. Pretty far from 10k isnt it? Now imagine if his target wasnt a thief, and wasnt as squishy. It would look even worse.

> > >

> > > good find, it shows that he teleported 2k units from stealth to land a 4,6k stab, with ~500 siphon hit, followed by 3 autos, that did 500 + 500 +2k dmg before thief managed to dodge away from him. That is 8-9k dmg

> > > To add to that he runs full utility thief build, with 3 utility traitlines, and 0 damaging utilities, to top it off he did it out of combat so no lead attacks :D

> > > He also attacked after weak-strikes ran out so he lost 7% dmg bonus for hits after backstab

> >

> > Looks like its under 1800 units actually, since swipe wasnt max range. And yes, it was 5k burst, followed by autos he was only able to use because the thief had burned through all of his stunbreaks. Obviously the 3 autos do not count towards burst. Its 5k burst. 3 damage traitlines. SA, Trickery and DD are all *damage* traitlines. The fact that they have some utility doesnt change that fact. Critical Strikes has a fair bit of utility. And yes, it was out of combat. Thats how thief bursts. Why are you mentioning it as if its a big gotcha? And Weakening Strike wont affect the backstab, so it wont affect the burst.

> >

> > So, to recap. 5k burst, max. Able to do it from <1800 range if you burn a stunbreak and condi clear (note: A few other classes can do the same kind of thing). Not so dangerous now, is it? And far from 10k. Which isnt surprising, the thief wasnt running around with 25 stacks of vulnerability.

>

> Shadowstep isn't a condi removal on activation. He did all this with literally ZERO risk, because he can instantly port back to his shadowstep return for THIRTY seconds and remove 3 conditions.

>

 

Man your mask is slipping. You claim to main thief, yet you dont know shadowsteps return is *15* seconds, not 30. And sure, immediately he isnt at much risk (though he isnt anyway since its a 2v1). But if someone condi-bombs him in the 75 seconds its down? Or CCs him? Suddenly he dies. Its a risk alright.

 

> Thief does far too much burst for the amount of survival, mobility, stealth, and pressure(daze/basi stun) it has.

 

No it doesnt. It does very little burst, and its survival is poor (unless you count running away as survival, which A, I dont, and B, is just "mobility" repeated), stealth is irrelevant and its pressure is mediocre.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132"

> >

> > Let us see, hmmmmm

> >

> >

> > https://imgur.com/Z97N1q4

> > https://imgur.com/iip2bMF

> > https://imgur.com/h3NIVZ2

> > https://imgur.com/blsfeAg

> > https://imgur.com/zkCGJrg

> > By looking through this I realized that as a mesmer dodging/avoiding backstab does jack kitten as thief counters you so kitten hard that you will die anyways.

>

> You seem to be running around with 25 vulnerability a lot. Maybe ... *dont* do that? You will find that your survivability improves by a massive amount if you decide to not have 25 stacks of vulnerability on you at all times.

 

most of those are from 1v1 fights, no 25 vuln stacks at all, and even if its 1vX. Mesmer doesnt live long enough to get to 25vulnerability stacks.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132"

> > >

> > > Let us see, hmmmmm

> > >

> > >

> > > https://imgur.com/Z97N1q4

> > > https://imgur.com/iip2bMF

> > > https://imgur.com/h3NIVZ2

> > > https://imgur.com/blsfeAg

> > > https://imgur.com/zkCGJrg

> > > By looking through this I realized that as a mesmer dodging/avoiding backstab does jack kitten as thief counters you so kitten hard that you will die anyways.

> >

> > You seem to be running around with 25 vulnerability a lot. Maybe ... *dont* do that? You will find that your survivability improves by a massive amount if you decide to not have 25 stacks of vulnerability on you at all times.

>

> most of those are from 1v1 fights, no 25 vuln stacks at all, and even if its 1vX. Mesmer doesnt live long enough to get to 25vulnerability stacks.

 

Then youre gonna have to explain where the damage is coming from. We already saw what the meta theif build hits for, and its *far* from the damage numbers youre showing. Hell, the cluster bomb hit harder than the actual meta backstab, despite the skill doing almost 20% less damage.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132"

> > > >

> > > > Let us see, hmmmmm

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > https://imgur.com/Z97N1q4

> > > > https://imgur.com/iip2bMF

> > > > https://imgur.com/h3NIVZ2

> > > > https://imgur.com/blsfeAg

> > > > https://imgur.com/zkCGJrg

> > > > By looking through this I realized that as a mesmer dodging/avoiding backstab does jack kitten as thief counters you so kitten hard that you will die anyways.

> > >

> > > You seem to be running around with 25 vulnerability a lot. Maybe ... *dont* do that? You will find that your survivability improves by a massive amount if you decide to not have 25 stacks of vulnerability on you at all times.

> >

> > most of those are from 1v1 fights, no 25 vuln stacks at all, and even if its 1vX. Mesmer doesnt live long enough to get to 25vulnerability stacks.

>

> Then youre gonna have to explain where the damage is coming from. We already saw what the meta theif build hits for, and its *far* from the damage numbers youre showing. Hell, the cluster bomb hit harder than the actual meta backstab, despite the skill doing almost 20% less damage.

 

nothing, 2/4 of those screens are from AT against meta build during 1v1, this is how much damage mesmer takes from a thief.

No bullshitting, backstab hits harder, on mesmer its 5-7k hits from backstab, add in venoms and all the shit and condi loses 50% hp, and my meme build 60-70% before I can react.

4-5k backstabs that you see are on heavy armor classes or classes that take extra toughness.

for example power rev has 2342 armor, while mesmer condi or power runs with 1888. This means that mesmer takes ~24% more power damage, simply due to armor alone.

So every time you land 5k backstab on rev. know that identical hit on mesmer would have been over 6k/

Thief with divinity rune has 2107 armor, against mesmers 1888. Mesmer takes ~16% more damage. Again, that 4.6k backstab would have been 5,3k on mesmer.

Add in weakening strikes, lead attacks and suddenly its over 6k hits easy peasy.

[Vancho.8750]

> @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > @"Babylon.8972" said:

> > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > All thiefs elite skills are super bad

> > >

> > > Every other class have even 1 decent useful elite, but thief have 0. Just joke tier elites. I would pay a lot to swap my elites with engineer.

> >

> > Here is what I would like to see to balance thief out with other classes.

> >

> > 1: tripple the BLIND pulsing on BLINDING POWDER as it was yeaRs ago. Literally every class has gained aoe in the recent years. It is inpossible for thief to compete with this now. They get killed to easily.

> >

> > 2: Make DJ on DEADEYE unblockable. There is more reflection then ever.

> >

> > 3: Steal is okay. However I think mug should be made baseline.

> >

> > 4: Remove the cooldown of backstab. Its stupid and I have no clue why this is in the first place also dmg is garbage. But this is due to the bunker meta were stuck in for years.

> >

> > 5: Remove the binding at the start of heartseeker. Rn it locks you from movement. It feels buggy.

> >

> > 6: Make basilisk venom and heal venom instant. So it goes in par with the other venoms.

> >

> > Anything I missed?

>

> I did miss something

>

> Was playing dp. I tried to finish of a holo. He ran away while swinging his sword poof poof 3k per hit. There I was hitting 200-300 aa.

> What i mean by this thiefs aa dmg is pathetic. Thiefs got no chasing potential at all. FACT

> Thief chases a target and ends up wasting all defensive utilitys failing to finish of the the target.

> Rangers too HAHAHA pets do more dmg then thief.

What kind of crap build are you running, thief is probably the only profession that can get away with going with all offensive options.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132"

> > > > >

> > > > > Let us see, hmmmmm

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > https://imgur.com/Z97N1q4

> > > > > https://imgur.com/iip2bMF

> > > > > https://imgur.com/h3NIVZ2

> > > > > https://imgur.com/blsfeAg

> > > > > https://imgur.com/zkCGJrg

> > > > > By looking through this I realized that as a mesmer dodging/avoiding backstab does jack kitten as thief counters you so kitten hard that you will die anyways.

> > > >

> > > > You seem to be running around with 25 vulnerability a lot. Maybe ... *dont* do that? You will find that your survivability improves by a massive amount if you decide to not have 25 stacks of vulnerability on you at all times.

> > >

> > > most of those are from 1v1 fights, no 25 vuln stacks at all, and even if its 1vX. Mesmer doesnt live long enough to get to 25vulnerability stacks.

> >

> > Then youre gonna have to explain where the damage is coming from. We already saw what the meta theif build hits for, and its *far* from the damage numbers youre showing. Hell, the cluster bomb hit harder than the actual meta backstab, despite the skill doing almost 20% less damage.

>

> nothing, 2/4 of those screens are from AT against meta build during 1v1, this is how much damage mesmer takes from a thief.

> No bullshitting, backstab hits harder, on mesmer its 5-7k hits from backstab, add in venoms and all the kitten and condi loses 50% hp, and my meme build 60-70% before I can react.

> 4-5k backstabs that you see are on heavy armor classes or classes that take extra toughness.

> for example power rev has 2342 armor, while mesmer condi or power runs with 1888. This means that mesmer takes ~24% more power damage, simply due to armor alone.

> So every time you land 5k backstab on rev. know that identical hit on mesmer would have been over 6k/

> Thief with divinity rune has 2107 armor, against mesmers 1888. Mesmer takes ~16% more damage. Again, that 4.6k backstab would have been 5,3k on mesmer.

> Add in weakening strikes, lead attacks and suddenly its over 6k hits easy peasy.

 

So when a thief is full of boons and venoms its backstab takes 50% of ur health hmmmm I'm sure people could post mirages doing their burst outa stealth leaving classes like thief at 0% not 50, I mean maybe the mesmer burst wouldnt drop a high sustain warrior but would chunk it far harder then a power thiefs backstab would. Do u deny mirages burst from stealth is far higher than thief's? I'm almost talking double the burst damage here. U hate ur counter and yeah plasma is strong but ur complaining about a classes burst dps when its less then ur own main, thief is more relevant then mesmer because it's mobility makes it great in a mode like conquest, definitely not cuz its burst damage, least not anymore.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132"

> > > > >

> > > > > Let us see, hmmmmm

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > https://imgur.com/Z97N1q4

> > > > > https://imgur.com/iip2bMF

> > > > > https://imgur.com/h3NIVZ2

> > > > > https://imgur.com/blsfeAg

> > > > > https://imgur.com/zkCGJrg

> > > > > By looking through this I realized that as a mesmer dodging/avoiding backstab does jack kitten as thief counters you so kitten hard that you will die anyways.

> > > >

> > > > You seem to be running around with 25 vulnerability a lot. Maybe ... *dont* do that? You will find that your survivability improves by a massive amount if you decide to not have 25 stacks of vulnerability on you at all times.

> > >

> > > most of those are from 1v1 fights, no 25 vuln stacks at all, and even if its 1vX. Mesmer doesnt live long enough to get to 25vulnerability stacks.

> >

> > Then youre gonna have to explain where the damage is coming from. We already saw what the meta theif build hits for, and its *far* from the damage numbers youre showing. Hell, the cluster bomb hit harder than the actual meta backstab, despite the skill doing almost 20% less damage.

>

> nothing, 2/4 of those screens are from AT against meta build during 1v1, this is how much damage mesmer takes from a thief.

> No bullshitting, backstab hits harder, on mesmer its 5-7k hits from backstab, add in venoms and all the kitten and condi loses 50% hp, and my meme build 60-70% before I can react.

 

Unfortunately that just isnt possible. Thief has 2029 toughness. Mesmer has 1888 toughness. Meaning Mesmer takes about 8% (a little less actually) more damage than a thief does. We saw a glass thief get backstabbed by Sindrener. The backstab hit for 4.6k. So you should take *under* 5k from backstab. There is absolutely no way for you to get 7k.

 

> 4-5k backstabs that you see are on heavy armor classes or classes that take extra toughness.

 

No, 4-5k backstabs are on classes like glass thief and glass ranger. On classes that take extra toughness, like say, Condi Rev, you get [this](

). Now, he has protection there, but even if you add 50% damage, thats only 3.6k damage from a 25% or lower Heartseeker. A bcakstab wouldve been 3.2k. Not 4-5k. 4-5k is what you hit on glass cannons.

 

> for example power rev has 2342 armor, while mesmer condi or power runs with 1888. This means that mesmer takes ~24% more power damage, simply due to armor alone.

 

If you include Rune of Resistance. Which isnt "just armour". But yeah, that being said. I didnt compare to Rev, did I? I compared to *Thief*.

 

> So every time you land 5k backstab on rev. know that identical hit on mesmer would have been over 6k/

 

Oh you dont hit 5k backstabs on rev. You hit 4k or less. 5k is on glass cannon squishies. Mesmer might be the only class yo uget actually 5k rather than less than 5k.

 

> Thief with divinity rune has 2107 armor, against mesmers 1888. Mesmer takes ~16% more damage. Again, that 4.6k backstab would have been 5,3k on mesmer.

> Add in weakening strikes, lead attacks and suddenly its over 6k hits easy peasy.

 

Your math is bad. Its *11*%, not 16%. It would be *just* 5k. And why are you adding damage multipliers that dont apply? You wont get weakening strikes or lead attacks on your +1 backstab.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"UNOwen.7132" Didnt know that only backstab that matters is the first one that has 0 counterplay, if only I knew.

You are right about armor, its 11,5% not 16% my bad.

I gave you screens of over 5k hits in 1v1, skills that deal less dmg then backstab, the reason you dont get to hit big backstabs is that nobody lives long enough to let you hit with lead attacks, you hit from stealth for 5k, add some venoms and autos and the fight is over GG, and you dont need to restealth just switch to sb and spam ~4k clusters every 3s

 

@"Psycoprophet.8107" full of boons and venoms -> LOL. thief runs no venom utilities or the stun elite. all the "venoms" and "leech" hit they get from their utility traitline, free 1k dmg every time they stealth, stealth instantly gives a venom and another after 3s. Such a huge investment.

BTW I dont know how hard mirage bursts from stealth, the only power mirage that I have seen in ~300 games in plat games was me and vinq and he never bursted me from stealth, I dont even know if he runs any stealth other then 2s from midnight.

I see more deadeyes then I see power mirages, heck I see more meme "1shot" staff thiefs then power mirages.

 

People tried CS thief btw, it has the kind of damage that people want from thief, problem is you lose the cozy utility, and thief that can die when you fuck up is not the kind of thief people wanna play, so instead of giving up utility for damage people will whine to get it for free like the OP does right now.

Ironically the only thing holding CS thief from being good is the fact that, shadow arts thief will shit on you due to more stealth, and will get more openings on you and win the even fights.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"UNOwen.7132" Didnt know that only backstab that matters is the first one that has 0 counterplay, if only I knew.

> You are right about armor, its 11,5% not 16% my bad.

> I gave you screens of over 5k hits in 1v1, skills that deal less dmg then backstab, the reason you dont get to hit big backstabs is that nobody lives long enough to let you hit with lead attacks, you hit from stealth for 5k, add some venoms and autos and the fight is over GG, and you dont need to restealth just switch to sb and spam ~4k clusters every 3s

>

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" full of boons and venoms -> LOL. thief runs no venom utilities or the stun elite. all the "venoms" and "leech" hit they get from their utility traitline, free 1k dmg every time they stealth, stealth instantly gives a venom and another after 3s. Such a huge investment.

> BTW I dont know how hard mirage bursts from stealth, the only power mirage that I have seen in ~300 games in plat games was me and vinq and he never bursted me from stealth, I dont even know if he runs any stealth other then 2s from midnight.

> I see more deadeyes then I see power mirages, heck I see more meme "1shot" staff thiefs then power mirages.

>

> People tried CS thief btw, it has the kind of damage that people want from thief, problem is you lose the cozy utility, and thief that can die when you kitten up is not the kind of thief people wanna play, so instead of giving up utility for damage people will whine to get it for free like the OP does right now.

> Ironically the only thing holding CS thief from being good is the fact that, shadow arts thief will kitten on you due to more stealth, and will get more openings on you and win the even fights.

 

Never said they used venom utilities, I assumed u were talking about the trait from SA. I swapped before I left the game to CS instead of SA because I figured SA was gonna be nerfed sooner or later. With twin fangs,practiced tolerance and no quarter with zerk and devinity runes I was backstabbing for 7k max if I had a lot of boons on my back from outside sources, even got some 6k HS but considering the burst potentials of classes that aren't even supposed to be burst oriented that's hardly amazing.

Same set up in wvw sometimes I'd get just over 10k backstabs and like above compared to what non bursty specs can burst for on some builds in wvw 10k on a rogue class is barely worth co complaining over, not until the numbers are less common atleast.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"UNOwen.7132" Didnt know that only backstab that matters is the first one that has 0 counterplay, if only I knew.

 

What do you mean "first one". Its the *only* one. Youre not gonna get backstabbed by an enemy you were *already* fighting and had time to put weakness on you. Besides the fact that you likely already killed him or he had to run, even if he were to try and go for it, you would at best get fronstabbed.

 

> You are right about armor, its 11,5% not 16% my bad.

> I gave you screens of over 5k hits in 1v1, skills that deal less dmg then backstab, the reason you dont get to hit big backstabs is that nobody lives long enough to let you hit with lead attacks, you hit from stealth for 5k, add some venoms and autos and the fight is over GG, and you dont need to restealth just switch to sb and spam ~4k clusters every 3s

>

 

You didnt however give us the *context*. Here is the thing, as much as youre trying to push the lead attacks angle, that wouldnt explain it either. Lead Attacks maxes out at 15%. Ignoring that you never get to 15% for a second, even so, that fails to explain it. 5000\*1.15= 5750, not 7700. 3500\*1.15= 4025, not 5000. Youre missing another 25% damage modifier, or even more in the case of backstab. Hence my "25 stacks of vulnerability" comment.

 

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" full of boons and venoms -> LOL. thief runs no venom utilities or the stun elite. all the "venoms" and "leech" hit they get from their utility traitline, free 1k dmg every time they stealth, stealth instantly gives a venom and another after 3s. Such a huge investment.

> BTW I dont know how hard mirage bursts from stealth, the only power mirage that I have seen in ~300 games in plat games was me and vinq and he never bursted me from stealth, I dont even know if he runs any stealth other then 2s from midnight.

> I see more deadeyes then I see power mirages, heck I see more meme "1shot" staff thiefs then power mirages.

>

 

Yeah Mesmer is in a poor state. It bursts much harder, and it does so from stealth as well, but that doesnt exactly save it. It lacks mobility and relevance outside of meme-y oneshots.

 

> People tried CS thief btw, it has the kind of damage that people want from thief, problem is you lose the cozy utility, and thief that can die when you kitten up is not the kind of thief people wanna play, so instead of giving up utility for damage people will whine to get it for free like the OP does right now.

 

And that ... is a blatant lie. People did indeed try CS. But what they saw was quite unlike what youre trying to say. No, what they saw was that your damage was still bad. If you had every single damage multiplier active, you looked at about a gain of 600-700 damage. So instead of bursting for 5k, you burst for 5.7k. But it came with 3 big downsides. For one, the damage was less reliable. If just *one* of the multipliers went inactive, you already did about the same damage if not a tiny bit less than the SA version. If both went inactive (not unrealistic), then you suffered a *major* damage loss. Two, your damage did not ignore resistances. This meant you did *much* worse vs tankier builds. And 3, if you failed to crit, none of the damage multipliers would apply, and you would do a *ton* less damage. Critical Strikes was worse as a damage traitline. Its just garbage. Always has been. Oh and it scales worse as well.

 

> Ironically the only thing holding CS thief from being good is the fact that, shadow arts thief will kitten on you due to more stealth, and will get more openings on you and win the even fights.

 

Hahaha, no. Whats holding CS thief back is the fact that CS is a garbage traitline that underperforms even purely on the damage front compared to SA in an average scenario. In a 1v1, stealth doesnt matter, thieves can cleave through stealth, and your goal is to drop stealth ASAP anyway. SA does win the fight, but not because of stealth or some such rubbish, but because CS loses access to its multipliers quickly, and SA outdamages it.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" Didnt know that only backstab that matters is the first one that has 0 counterplay, if only I knew.

>

> What do you mean "first one". Its the *only* one. Youre not gonna get backstabbed by an enemy you were *already* fighting and had time to put weakness on you. Besides the fact that you likely already killed him or he had to run, even if he were to try and go for it, you would at best get fronstabbed.

>

> > You are right about armor, its 11,5% not 16% my bad.

> > I gave you screens of over 5k hits in 1v1, skills that deal less dmg then backstab, the reason you dont get to hit big backstabs is that nobody lives long enough to let you hit with lead attacks, you hit from stealth for 5k, add some venoms and autos and the fight is over GG, and you dont need to restealth just switch to sb and spam ~4k clusters every 3s

> >

>

> You didnt however give us the *context*. Here is the thing, as much as youre trying to push the lead attacks angle, that wouldnt explain it either. Lead Attacks maxes out at 15%. Ignoring that you never get to 15% for a second, even so, that fails to explain it. 5000\*1.15= 5750, not 7700. 3500\*1.15= 4025, not 5000. Youre missing another 25% damage modifier, or even more in the case of backstab. Hence my "25 stacks of vulnerability" comment.

>

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" full of boons and venoms -> LOL. thief runs no venom utilities or the stun elite. all the "venoms" and "leech" hit they get from their utility traitline, free 1k dmg every time they stealth, stealth instantly gives a venom and another after 3s. Such a huge investment.

> > BTW I dont know how hard mirage bursts from stealth, the only power mirage that I have seen in ~300 games in plat games was me and vinq and he never bursted me from stealth, I dont even know if he runs any stealth other then 2s from midnight.

> > I see more deadeyes then I see power mirages, heck I see more meme "1shot" staff thiefs then power mirages.

> >

>

> Yeah Mesmer is in a poor state. It bursts much harder, and it does so from stealth as well, but that doesnt exactly save it. It lacks mobility and relevance outside of meme-y oneshots.

>

> > People tried CS thief btw, it has the kind of damage that people want from thief, problem is you lose the cozy utility, and thief that can die when you kitten up is not the kind of thief people wanna play, so instead of giving up utility for damage people will whine to get it for free like the OP does right now.

>

> And that ... is a blatant lie. People did indeed try CS. But what they saw was quite unlike what youre trying to say. No, what they saw was that your damage was still bad. If you had every single damage multiplier active, you looked at about a gain of 600-700 damage. So instead of bursting for 5k, you burst for 5.7k. But it came with 3 big downsides. For one, the damage was less reliable. If just *one* of the multipliers went inactive, you already did about the same damage if not a tiny bit less than the SA version. If both went inactive (not unrealistic), then you suffered a *major* damage loss. Two, your damage did not ignore resistances. This meant you did *much* worse vs tankier builds. And 3, if you failed to crit, none of the damage multipliers would apply, and you would do a *ton* less damage. Critical Strikes was worse as a damage traitline. Its just garbage. Always has been. Oh and it scales worse as well.

>

> > Ironically the only thing holding CS thief from being good is the fact that, shadow arts thief will kitten on you due to more stealth, and will get more openings on you and win the even fights.

>

> Hahaha, no. Whats holding CS thief back is the fact that CS is a garbage traitline that underperforms even purely on the damage front compared to SA in an average scenario. In a 1v1, stealth doesnt matter, thieves can cleave through stealth, and your goal is to drop stealth ASAP anyway. SA does win the fight, but not because of stealth or some such rubbish, but because CS loses access to its multipliers quickly, and SA outdamages it.

 

The gbage dps gain from crit strikes in relation to utility gain is exactly why DA was takin as the defacto dps/utility line over CS which even now with the semi recent small buffs doesn't provide enough of a dps boost over DA to make it worth taking over DA. Anet said they want thief to do good burst dps but they want thief to have to take a damage line to do it, most thieves would be fine with that if anet devs actually knew their game and buffed CA enough to to be worth taking.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"UNOwen.7132" Didnt know that only backstab that matters is the first one that has 0 counterplay, if only I knew.

> You are right about armor, its 11,5% not 16% my bad.

> I gave you screens of over 5k hits in 1v1, skills that deal less dmg then backstab, the reason you dont get to hit big backstabs is that nobody lives long enough to let you hit with lead attacks, you hit from stealth for 5k, add some venoms and autos and the fight is over GG, and you dont need to restealth just switch to sb and spam ~4k clusters every 3s

>

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" full of boons and venoms -> LOL. thief runs no venom utilities or the stun elite. all the "venoms" and "leech" hit they get from their utility traitline, free 1k dmg every time they stealth, stealth instantly gives a venom and another after 3s. Such a huge investment.

> BTW I dont know how hard mirage bursts from stealth, the only power mirage that I have seen in ~300 games in plat games was me and vinq and he never bursted me from stealth, I dont even know if he runs any stealth other then 2s from midnight.

> I see more deadeyes then I see power mirages, heck I see more meme "1shot" staff thiefs then power mirages.

>

> People tried CS thief btw, it has the kind of damage that people want from thief, problem is you lose the cozy utility, and thief that can die when you kitten up is not the kind of thief people wanna play, so instead of giving up utility for damage people will whine to get it for free like the OP does right now.

> Ironically the only thing holding CS thief from being good is the fact that, shadow arts thief will kitten on you due to more stealth, and will get more openings on you and win the even fights.

 

Actually that isn't why critical strikes thief isn't played. It isn't played because deadly arts with improv is more damage, utility, CC, and survival because stolen abilities are very overtuned in a post-feb game.

 

Critical strikes is actually an insane amount of damage right now, but improv is just too busted when combined with how overtuned stolen abilities are. If they buffed crit strikes anymore thief would run around 1 shotting everyone from stealth.

 

Shadow arts stealth uptime and stolen abilities just need to be nerfed.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" Didnt know that only backstab that matters is the first one that has 0 counterplay, if only I knew.

> > You are right about armor, its 11,5% not 16% my bad.

> > I gave you screens of over 5k hits in 1v1, skills that deal less dmg then backstab, the reason you dont get to hit big backstabs is that nobody lives long enough to let you hit with lead attacks, you hit from stealth for 5k, add some venoms and autos and the fight is over GG, and you dont need to restealth just switch to sb and spam ~4k clusters every 3s

> >

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" full of boons and venoms -> LOL. thief runs no venom utilities or the stun elite. all the "venoms" and "leech" hit they get from their utility traitline, free 1k dmg every time they stealth, stealth instantly gives a venom and another after 3s. Such a huge investment.

> > BTW I dont know how hard mirage bursts from stealth, the only power mirage that I have seen in ~300 games in plat games was me and vinq and he never bursted me from stealth, I dont even know if he runs any stealth other then 2s from midnight.

> > I see more deadeyes then I see power mirages, heck I see more meme "1shot" staff thiefs then power mirages.

> >

> > People tried CS thief btw, it has the kind of damage that people want from thief, problem is you lose the cozy utility, and thief that can die when you kitten up is not the kind of thief people wanna play, so instead of giving up utility for damage people will whine to get it for free like the OP does right now.

> > Ironically the only thing holding CS thief from being good is the fact that, shadow arts thief will kitten on you due to more stealth, and will get more openings on you and win the even fights.

>

> Actually that isn't why critical strikes thief isn't played. It isn't played because deadly arts with improv is more damage, utility, CC, and survival because stolen abilities are very overtuned in a post-feb game.

>

> Critical strikes is actually an insane amount of damage right now, but improv is just too busted when combined with how overtuned stolen abilities are. If they buffed crit strikes anymore thief would run around 1 shotting everyone from stealth.

>

> Shadow arts stealth uptime and stolen abilities just need to be nerfed.

 

No one is picking DA either, its also bad. Critical Strikes is also *far* from "insane amounts of damage". And what, do you think theyre going to slap a 200% damage modifier into Crit Strikes? Because outside of that, there is no way thief is oneshotting *anyone*. Man for a self-proclaimed "thief main", you seem to not know thief well at all.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" Didnt know that only backstab that matters is the first one that has 0 counterplay, if only I knew.

> > > You are right about armor, its 11,5% not 16% my bad.

> > > I gave you screens of over 5k hits in 1v1, skills that deal less dmg then backstab, the reason you dont get to hit big backstabs is that nobody lives long enough to let you hit with lead attacks, you hit from stealth for 5k, add some venoms and autos and the fight is over GG, and you dont need to restealth just switch to sb and spam ~4k clusters every 3s

> > >

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" full of boons and venoms -> LOL. thief runs no venom utilities or the stun elite. all the "venoms" and "leech" hit they get from their utility traitline, free 1k dmg every time they stealth, stealth instantly gives a venom and another after 3s. Such a huge investment.

> > > BTW I dont know how hard mirage bursts from stealth, the only power mirage that I have seen in ~300 games in plat games was me and vinq and he never bursted me from stealth, I dont even know if he runs any stealth other then 2s from midnight.

> > > I see more deadeyes then I see power mirages, heck I see more meme "1shot" staff thiefs then power mirages.

> > >

> > > People tried CS thief btw, it has the kind of damage that people want from thief, problem is you lose the cozy utility, and thief that can die when you kitten up is not the kind of thief people wanna play, so instead of giving up utility for damage people will whine to get it for free like the OP does right now.

> > > Ironically the only thing holding CS thief from being good is the fact that, shadow arts thief will kitten on you due to more stealth, and will get more openings on you and win the even fights.

> >

> > Actually that isn't why critical strikes thief isn't played. It isn't played because deadly arts with improv is more damage, utility, CC, and survival because stolen abilities are very overtuned in a post-feb game.

> >

> > Critical strikes is actually an insane amount of damage right now, but improv is just too busted when combined with how overtuned stolen abilities are. If they buffed crit strikes anymore thief would run around 1 shotting everyone from stealth.

> >

> > Shadow arts stealth uptime and stolen abilities just need to be nerfed.

>

> No one is picking DA either, its also bad. Critical Strikes is also *far* from "insane amounts of damage". And what, do you think theyre going to slap a 200% damage modifier into Crit Strikes? Because outside of that, there is no way thief is oneshotting *anyone*. Man for a self-proclaimed "thief main", you seem to not know thief well at all.

 

Man look on the guys other recent posts, he's complete bias incarnate regarding thief and clearly doesn't like the class so not much point going back and forth with him or the few other forumers that constantly go on about thief being OP broken non sense, they'll complain and complain in he Hope's one day anet will grant them their wish of rendering them completely useless, then of which they will still continue in Hope's for it to stay there.

I mean....they guy said CS is insane amounts of dps, that right there should tell u all u need to know about his bias etc.

Also we stated CS wasn't taken over DA cuz dps wasn't enough over DA's damage and utility package and he says we're wrong it's taken for improve and utilities which not only is improve utility he basically said what we did about why CS isn't taken, except for the Cs doing insane damage of course.

Just move on theres no end going back and forth with these posters, atleast while the class they dislike exists anyway.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Psycoprophet.8107"

the moment thief is viable option and not a mandatory option I will accept the fact that its not overpowered, so far I played for over a year. And since then NOT having a thief in team is trolling, and nothing has changed. Nothing is changing. And most likely nothing will change.

Unlike other classes, that jump from viable to OP to UP ( mesmer, warrior, tempest, fb ) for example.

Thief is since I remember ALWAYS been mandatory.

BTW Shiyo is a thief main so saying he wants thief nerfed into unviability is a bit much? just some people are capable to push through their bias and realize that the class they like to play is busted.

Unless you mean me? then yes, im biased. Entire concept of initiative is a disgrace to any game, this alongside of necro shroud are the biggest fucking flukes in design I have ever seen with 1 exception.

[viquing.8254]

Did thieves want Time warp or Moa as non joke ulti with their 180/120 CD ?

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"Psycoprophet.8107"

> the moment thief is viable option and not a mandatory option I will accept the fact that its not overpowered, so far I played for over a year. And since then NOT having a thief in team is trolling, and nothing has changed. Nothing is changing. And most likely nothing will change.

> Unlike other classes, that jump from viable to OP to UP ( mesmer, warrior, tempest, fb ) for example.

> Thief is since I remember ALWAYS been mandatory.

> BTW Shiyo is a thief main so saying he wants thief nerfed into unviability is a bit much? just some people are capable to push through their bias and realize that the class they like to play is busted.

> Unless you mean me? then yes, im biased. Entire concept of initiative is a disgrace to any game, this alongside of necro shroud are the biggest kitten flukes in design I have ever seen with 1 exception.

 

Correct, thief has dictated this games meta since 1.0. I originally mained thief in Vanilla because it solo won every single team fight and small skirmish(10vs10 or lower) in WvW and PvP. Sadly, it no longer solo wins WvW fights outside of unorganized and much smaller 1-3 person fights due to minstrels armor existing in the game.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"Psycoprophet.8107"

> the moment thief is viable option and not a mandatory option I will accept the fact that its not overpowered, so far I played for over a year. And since then NOT having a thief in team is trolling, and nothing has changed. Nothing is changing. And most likely nothing will change.

> Unlike other classes, that jump from viable to OP to UP ( mesmer, warrior, tempest, fb ) for example.

> Thief is since I remember ALWAYS been mandatory.

 

Well, almost. For a good chunk of HoT thief was the opposite. It was unviable, and pretty much no one picked it. Hell, we even had one tournament where Toker, the guy who picked thief even if it was bad, *didnt pick thief*. But yes, most of the time thief is a 1-of in your team. Thats the thing though. Thief will never be "just viable". Either its mandatory, or its unplayable. There is no in-between. And when I mean "unplayable", I mean worse than Mesmer and Warrior right now. The problem is that as long as shortbow 5 exists, you always want someone who can move fast and stand on points. And what, are you gonna try to nerf the mobility? Then there is no reason to ever pick thief if their mobility *isnt* ahead of everyone else.

 

> BTW Shiyo is a thief main so saying he wants thief nerfed into unviability is a bit much? just some people are capable to push through their bias and realize that the class they like to play is busted.

 

He isnt. Sure he likes to *claim* he is a thief main, but he has demonstrated time and time again that he lacks even the most basic knowledge about thief and its mechanics. From thinking shadowstep has a 30 second timer (which no thief main would ever think), to thinking CS isnt picked because of DA, to thinking stolen skills are the majority of your burst (real bruh moment that one), the list of things he got wrong are so long, there is no chance he is a thief main. Just a thief hater, like you.

 

> Unless you mean me? then yes, im biased. Entire concept of initiative is a disgrace to any game, this alongside of necro shroud are the biggest kitten flukes in design I have ever seen with 1 exception.

 

Hard disagree on both ends. Initiative is good design, it just needed to be built with a combo aspect in mind. Necro shroud is also pretty neat, and for most the games lifespan wasnt an issue.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"UNOwen.7132" he can main a class and not know things about it, you as a thief main dont know how to stealth for example and its something super basic.

you dont know you should use swipe on blocks etc.

Ini system as a design is horrible, it encourages spam on 1-2 skills that are better then the rest.

S/D spams teleport and dodge only, SB spams 5 and 2, D/P spams stealth into backstab and shadowshot/hs ( d/p is the only weapon where you actually use most if not all of its skills which is nice ) It promotes stupidity, thief doesnt have to learn how to use all of its skills since you can just not use them and have extra ini for the skills you know how to use. Horrible design that carries noobs.

I have not played in HoT so I dont know nor do I care. What is right now matters, right now thief is overpowered.

Thiefs are big crybabies, after patch they instantly went to the forums to whine its "unplayable" guess what, they got nerfed even more and they are still broken. Wouldnt be suprised if its all there was in HoT.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"UNOwen.7132" he can main a class and not know things about it, you as a thief main dont know how to stealth for example and its something super basic.

> you dont know you should use swipe on blocks etc.

 

Nice attempt at an ad hominem to cover up for him. But futile. I know how to stealth. You dont use it in combat. You dont know that of course, but you dont play thief and have an irrational hatred of it, so youre forgiven for thinking that youre supposed to stealth up mid-combat. I also know when you use swipe on blocks. Almost never. Again, you dont play thief, so your mistake is forgiven, though you shouldve noticed when watching high level thief plays that they never seem to use swipe on blocks.

 

But no, he doesnt main thief. He doesnt know absolutely basic things. Mechanics, builds, in fact, he doesnt know things he would learn naturally *if he actually played the class*. The fact that he also got the damage numbers completely wrong, something you would *see* when playing thief is just icing on the cake.

 

> Ini system as a design is horrible, it encourages spam on 1-2 skills that are better then the rest.

> S/D spams teleport and dodge only, SB spams 5 and 2, D/P spams stealth into backstab and shadowshot/hs ( d/p is the only weapon where you actually use most if not all of its skills which is nice ) It promotes stupidity, thief doesnt have to learn how to use all of its skills since you can just not use them and have extra ini for the skills you know how to use. Horrible design that carries noobs.

 

Hence the "it needed to be built with a combo aspect in mind". If you had reasons to chain skills, it wouldve been quite interesting. Its not an issue with initiative, its an issue with weapon skill designs. Though that being said, I would hardly call it more brainless than just spamming all your weapon skills off cooldown, which some classes still do.

 

> I have not played in HoT so I dont know nor do I care. What is right now matters, right now thief is overpowered.

 

Pretty important thing to not care about. And not really. Thief is in the same state it always is. A 1-of decap and +1 bot. Mandatory, but not broken.

 

> Thiefs are big crybabies, after patch they instantly went to the forums to whine its "unplayable" guess what, they got nerfed even more and they are still broken. Wouldnt be suprised if its all there was in HoT.

 

Wasnt that around the time we had a 2v2 or 3v3 season, where thief was, in fact, completely unplayable? Also, Im sorry, but you will be surprised. Thief wasnt played *at the very highest level*. As I said, Toker *swapped off of thief for a while*.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"UNOwen.7132" this is why there is propably 50 or more thiefs in top 250 and you are not one of them

 

"I know how to stealth. You dont use it in combat. "

Hilarious

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"UNOwen.7132" this is why there is propably 50 or more thiefs in top 250 and you are not one of them

>

 

Yeah, couldnt be because I play *Engineer* nowadays, and even that only sporadically because the post-patch PvP sucks.

 

> "I know how to stealth. You dont use it in combat. "

> Hilarious

 

Some people find the truth funny? Odd. But hey, whatever floats your boat. But again, remember, the last time we had this discussion, I showed you the top theif in the world (based on MOTA) playing for a lot of games, and guess what? He didnt stealth in combat more than *once* across like 5 games. We already established that Im right. You dont stealth in combat. You stealth when youre out of combat or have already disengaged. Otherwise you immediately get blasted to bits. But again, youre an irrational thief hater, your ignorance of how anything about thief works is forgiven.