Some thoughts on ways to make core Engi valuable

[ArielRebel.3426]

I am 100% AGAINST locking holosmith out of kits (eventho I personnaly don't use them with my holo build) or killing/locking tool belt skills because, as said by Kodama, it further kills build diversity. If you really want to buff core and not elites, you need to take an approach similar to how Scrapper has reduced vitality to make up for passive barrier creation.

 

In short, kits in dire need of buffs (which is most of them) should simply be buffed (that it'd be their stats getting increased or they are completely reworked or they get a QoL buff like nades and mortar being able to finally autoattack, etc. ) but add a "negative" passive to the "photon projector" trait of Holosmith. It could be as simple as number tweaking like Scrapper's lowered vitality and give holo a passive that makes it so "while using an engineering kit OTHER THAN HOLOFORGE, you lose XYZ amount of power/condi damage" or something to make it **so the kits are usable but arent as strong as they would be when used with core only traitlines**.

[Shroud.2307]

I still think the easiest solution is to give each trait line a Grand Master trait that has improved effects when used with core tbh. Some of the ideas here are alright, but most I still see as indirect buffs to the elites which is what needs to be avoided.

 

It's a difficult thing to balance for sure, ANet never should have simplified the class so much with the elites because it leads to the problems we have now.

 

> @"ArielRebel.3426" said:

> It could be as simple as number tweaking like Scrapper's lowered vitality and give holo a passive that makes it so "while using an engineering kit OTHER THAN HOLOFORGE, you lose XYZ amount of power/condi damage" or something to make it **so the kits are usable but arent as strong as they would be when used with core only traitlines**.

 

This idea is okay, but doesn't necessarily fix some of the issues Engi suffers. If kits were to be buffed specifically for core without the elites gaining the benefits, it'd have to be like cooldown reductions and additional effects or something.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> It's a difficult thing to balance for sure, ANet never should have simplified the class so much with the elites because it leads to the problems we have now.

Not just the class, IMO they never should have changed the traitline system.

 

On the old system we could have had elite traits on top of core traits, the higher you go the more high tier core traits in other trees you have to sacrifice. I miss the half specs, spreading out across all traitlines

[Dirame.8521]

If you buff anything in core Engie other than the Elite skill’s F5 then you inadvertently buff the Elite specs. So first, you lot have figure out how to buff Core without killing or buffing the Elites.

Is it impossible? Not really. The reason why I sometimes use core is because it’s the only one that can combine certain traits together and the F5 elite skills so that makes it unique in a way.

 

For PvE/PvP, if they allow Core Engie to turn some bosses in big chickens with Elixir X that’s have weaker defence stats for about 1.5 or 2s that would be nice. If they allow the amount of medpacs dropped from supply crate to increase based on the amount of teammates around you, that would also be nice, if they made Airstrike on Mortar become ammo based where you can summon 3 in one go, that would also be nice (if they do this whilst also letting all the explosions you cause reduce its cooldown, that would be great for dps builds).

 

So these are my suggestions on how to buff core.

[ArielRebel.3426]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> I still think the easiest solution is to give each trait line a Grand Master trait that has improved effects when used with core tbh. Some of the ideas here are alright, but most I still see as indirect buffs to the elites which is what needs to be avoided.

>

> It's a difficult thing to balance for sure, ANet never should have simplified the class so much with the elites because it leads to the problems we have now.

>

> > @"ArielRebel.3426" said:

> > It could be as simple as number tweaking like Scrapper's lowered vitality and give holo a passive that makes it so "while using an engineering kit OTHER THAN HOLOFORGE, you lose XYZ amount of power/condi damage" or something to make it **so the kits are usable but arent as strong as they would be when used with core only traitlines**.

>

> This idea is okay, but doesn't necessarily fix some of the issues Engi suffers. If kits were to be buffed specifically for core without the elites gaining the benefits, it'd have to be like cooldown reductions and additional effects or something.

 

Then the negatif passive for E-specs could be "longer CD" for example. It doesn't only have to be less pow/cond damage. It's an extremely simple solution that would fix most of the issue.

[Xaylin.1860]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> I think locking us out of kits for holosmith is reducing build diversity way too much.

>

 

Not necessarily. It would destroy Holo builds with Kits but they would just use different Utilities. In the end it could actually lead to more diversity. Not for Holos per se, but for Engineers overall. There are many Utility skills that are used for basically all subtypes of Engineer while others are neglected. How is that diversity?

 

Yes, this issue could also be adressed differently. ;)

 

> You have to consider that our kits are a replacement for weapons. Photon forge would be required to get an extreme buff to make up for that severe loss in adaptability. Not to mention that a huge amount of traits from engineer are also completely disabled for holosmith, something that is not the case for any other class. All other elite specs can still use all traits available for them, but locking holosmith out of kits disables:

> * grenadier

> * juggernaut

> * health insurance

> * backpack regenerator

> * power wrench

> * streamlined kits

>

> The only way to make these traits work with holosmith, if you really consider the photon forge to be some kind of "super kit", would be to make all these traits interact with photon forge as the replacement instead. Not sure how people would like if holosmith starts perma pulsing stability while in photon forge on top of might.

 

I'm aware of the weapon thing. But at least to me, PF does the job pretty well. It is so sexy I don't even want to touch my nice Lightsabre. Maybe it would need a buff. But I'm not even sure about that. Brute offensive power vs. Adaptability. Sounds fair to me. As you said yourself: Backpack Regenerator could easily work with PF and adding another effect to Streamlined Kits isn't hard either. The others are basically weapon traits. Yes, you'd be left with less choices than before. But I'd like to question how many of those are actually currently frequently used by Holosmiths. Overall, the loss of he Kits is probably the way bigger loss anyway.

 

Bit Off-Topic: To be honest, I'm not a big fan of weapon traits to begin with. I love 'inofficial' weapon traits like Comeback Cure, though.

 

> But something would need to be done, you can't just take away 1/4th of our core utility skills **and** 6 core traits from holosmith.

 

I can't. I would. ANet could. :p

 

Yes, it is would be a significant number of traits that would become inefficient - not ineffective, mind you! Most would still do something. But you got alternatives on each tier to pick from. And while it is a 'softer' version of this, just look at Mirage: It is a Clone spec. How many Phantasm traits are there? Many. They still work. But they're less attractive. What do you do? You just don't pick them. Easy.

 

I'm not saying that Mirage is perfect in any way. It is far from it. But not due to less attractive traits. Creating new ways to play a class should not be limited by the fear of making specific traits or skills unattractive to pick as long as there is a sufficient amount of alternatives. Instead, it should encourage picking other traits.

 

Now, weapons/kits are a different story, sure. Engineers are pretty unique because they don't have a very distinct 'class mechanic'. However, try not to solely think of Kits as Utility skills rather than your class mechanic. Then, it is kind of comparable to Berserker who loses baseline Bursts. I'm aware that the re-design of the spec wasn't solely perceived in a positive manner, but instead of just being a bonus slapped ontop as it was before it now actually changes how you play. Or look at Weaver. It might have been a rocky road but many people were very sceptical because of how the game flow changed due to Attunement swapping. However, many people find it fun. And it most certainly changes how the Elementalist plays and uses its skills. In this regard, it is probably one of the best Elite specs ANet introduced.

 

> @"ArielRebel.3426" said:

>It could be as simple as number tweaking like Scrapper's lowered vitality and give holo a passive that makes it so "while using an engineering kit OTHER THAN HOLOFORGE, you lose XYZ amount of power/condi damage" or something to make it **so the kits are usable but arent as strong as they would be when used with core only traitlines**.

 

That's just my opinion, but the -Vit on Scrapper is one of the most ridiculous things ANet has ever implemented. It's clearly a bandaid (number-balance) and has nothing to do with the concept or design of Scrapper. It is on the same level of lazy as Druid, although I find the reaction of some players a bit extreme, or the game mode based 1 Dodge of Mirage. And I'm sure ANet isn't very proud of it either.

 

Making Kits usable but nerfed is inconsequential. You can't always cater everyone. The bigger issue I see here is the cost of opportunity. Players are used to how it is now. If you take stuff away, it will cause a huge drama. Which probably wouldn't have happened if Elite specs where properly implemented from he start.

 

 

> @"Dirame.8521" said:

> If you buff anything in core Engie other than the Elite skill’s F5 then you inadvertently buff the Elite specs. So first, you lot have figure out how to buff Core without killing or buffing the Elites.

> Is it impossible? Not really. The reason why I sometimes use core is because it’s the only one that can combine certain traits together and the F5 elite skills so that makes it unique in a way.

>

 

This. It's not reasonable to expect proper balance just around F5. Unless F5 is overbuffed - which could work but would probably turn core Engineer into a silly one-trick-pony - the core class will remain less powerful unless Elite specs are nerfed into the ground or reworked.

 

I'm aware that the Kit-idea is a bit more extreme. But design-wise I'm just not satisified with the status quo of many classes.

 

[Kodama.6453]

@"Xaylin.1860"

 

No, you are downplaying the consequences here. A trait like juggernaut is not "less attractive" without flamethrower, it is straight up not functioning as long as you don't want holosmith to have perma stability while in photon forge.

 

Mirage is a clone spec, but that doesn't take away phantasms, does it? It has **synergy** with clones, which make them more desired than phantasms, but it is not completely disabling you from using phantasms if you desire to. It would be a proper analogy if mirage would just delete phantasms from their skills, which it doesn't. (And btw, phantasms create clones after dying, so they also have some synergy with mirage....).

 

And that many skills are not taken is a sign that gadgets and turrets need to get buffed, not hard forced onto a spec by disabling the other options.

No other spec is locked out of **7** weapons for picking their elite spec either. What you are describing here is absolute madness. It is fine that you prefer the photon forge over actual kits, but this suggestion is just killing the spec for most players in my opinion. Imagine if picking an elite spec like daredevil would have a text that reads "you get access to the staff and can use sword/dagger alongside it. All other weapons are disabled now! No shortbow, no mainhand dagger, no pistols in any hand! You **have** to play staff and sword/dagger, you're welcome!".

 

How many people do you think would enjoy such a drastic cut in their build options? I think there won't be many.

[Xaylin.1860]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> @"Xaylin.1860"

>

> No, you are downplaying the consequences here. A trait like juggernaut is not "less attractive" without flamethrower, it is straight up not functioning as long as you don't want holosmith to have perma stability while in photon forge.

>

 

That's just nit picking... but, for example, you'd still gain the increase on Might duration. However, how relevant is this actually? How many FT or HK Holos are there? Are Grenades/Bombs the star of any Holo build or is it PF anyway? And it still remains true that all the traits you've mentioned got alternatives that are valuable or even meta for Holo anyway.

 

> Mirage is a clone spec, but that doesn't take away phantasms, does it? It has **synergy** with clones, which make them more desired than phantasms, but it is not completely disabling you from using phantasms if you desire to. It would be a proper analogy if mirage would just delete phantasms from their skills, which it doesn't. (And btw, phantasms create clones after dying, so they also have some synergy with mirage....).

>

As I said, it is a 'soft' version. Still, you won't want to pick Phantasm traits. And maybe some Mirages would gladly get rid of Phantasms (e.g. creating Clone and performing the Phantasm-skill yourself instead). Design-wise, this would be the more consistent choice, yes. Also, Shatters should not be that unattractive. But that's more due to the overall shotty class design of Mirage rather than wether those traits work or not. They do work. It just doesn't make sense to invest into them too much even though it's your class mechanic.

 

> And that many skills are not taken is a sign that gadgets and turrets need to get buffed, not hard forced onto a spec by disabling the other options.

> No other spec is locked out of **7** weapons for picking their elite spec either. What you are describing here is absolute madness. It is fine that you prefer the photon forge over actual kits, but this suggestion is just killing the spec for most players in my opinion. Imagine if picking an elite spec like daredevil would have a text that reads "you get access to the staff and can use sword/dagger alongside it. All other weapons are disabled now! No shortbow, no mainhand dagger, no pistols in any hand! You **have** to play staff and sword/dagger, you're welcome!".

>

> How many people do you think would enjoy such a drastic cut in their build options? I think there won't be many.

 

I'd argue it is more so a sign of Kits being too dominant/powerful on Engineer. And Holo gets yet another Kit ontop.

 

Maybe many people wouldn't like it. I wouldn't know. I'm just voicing my opinion on how Elite specs **could** look like while offering a real trade off. If Elite specs were implemented to alter how a class plays and to change the class mechanic (something I assume to be the case), then in case of Engineer it would have to be connected to Toolbelts and Kits. It's just an objective observation. Nothing more. Along those lines, to me, balancing Scrapper through Toolbelts and Holo through Kits would make sense theoretically. Again, I'm just theorycrafting. I mean... how likely is this going to happen? :p

 

[Edit]: Regarding Daredevil... it would probably still include MH Dagger :p But wouldn't you agree that this would be a significant trade off for melee durability? Instead of Steal vs. Swipe?

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> That's just nit picking... but, for example, you'd still gain the increase on Might duration. However, how relevant is this actually? How many FT or HK Holos are there? Are >Grenades/Bombs the star of any Holo build or is it PF anyway? And it still remains true that all the traits you've mentioned got alternatives that are valuable or even meta >for Holo anyway.

 

Grandmaster trait investment to get 20% might duration. Yeah, that is literally a troll pick at that point. And that there are alternatives in the trait tree doesn't matter, I am talking about having the options here.

 

It also doesn't matter if not many people are not running flamethrower on holosmith currently. Taking away the option to do that would be just wrong in my opinion, as long as we don't also take away all core weapons from all the other elite specs except 2 sets (like in my example for daredevil).

 

And asking about if grenades are actually the star of a holo build or not... do you play PvP? You know about the grenade holo build? You know, that one many people complain about that grenade kit is doing too much for them?

Photon forge mostly is used there to get the high damage modifiers that it offers.

 

Oh, and another side effect you didn't consider: you entirely kill condition holo with that change. Because guess what? Almost all our condition damage from utility skills is located on kits!

Condition holo currently runs: bomb kit, grenade kit, flamethrower. Holosmith itself offers not alot of condition damage, the photon forge is mostly focused on power. Just pf4 and pbm are offering some burn, but not enough to make a condition build work.

 

So we are also hard locked into the power damage type when using holo....

 

> I'd argue it is more so a sign of Kits being too dominant/powerful on Engineer. And Holo gets yet another Kit ontop.

 

Kits are dominant **because they are our weapon replacement**. There is legit just 1 class in the game that could accomplish something while just having 1 weapon set available, which is thief and that is just because of how their initiative system works. They don't have to worry about cooldowns on their weapon abilities, since they legit don't have any. An engineer without kits will spend 80% of the time in a fight just auto attacking. Which also is not a really exciting playstyle.

 

> [Edit]: Regarding Daredevil... it would probably still include MH Dagger :p But wouldn't you agree that this would be a significant trade off for melee durability? Instead of Steal vs. Swipe?

 

Nope, it definitely shouldn't have mainhand dagger. Mainhand dagger is a dps and burst weapon, something that daredevil is not supposed to be. It is a bruiser spec, something that is supposed to give survivability in the middle of the enemy. The only mainhand weapon that thief has that is from a bruiser type is sword, so they get to use mainhand sword, mainhand dagger needs to get deleted.

 

And no, I don't think that classes should be restricted to just 2 different weapons sets on elite spec. That just makes the game terrible to play, since I am hard locked into my weapons just because I want to play a specific elite spec. It takes a huge portion of the fun out of the game.

 

 

[Dirame.8521]

> > @"Dirame.8521" said:

> > If you buff anything in core Engie other than the Elite skill’s F5 then you inadvertently buff the Elite specs. So first, you lot have figure out how to buff Core without killing or buffing the Elites.

> > Is it impossible? Not really. The reason why I sometimes use core is because it’s the only one that can combine certain traits together and the F5 elite skills so that makes it unique in a way.

> >

>

> This. It's not reasonable to expect proper balance just around F5. Unless F5 is overbuffed - which could work but would probably turn core Engineer into a silly one-trick-pony - the core class will remain less powerful unless Elite specs are nerfed into the ground or reworked.

>

> I'm aware that the Kit-idea is a bit more extreme. But design-wise I'm just not satisified with the status quo of many classes.

 

At this point, most professions or builds are based around that one trick anyway so might as well lean into it haha!

 

My suggestions for the F5 buffing doesn't need to be limited to that. There is a way to introduce mechanics into the trait system that would be impossible for the Elite specs to capitalize on because they have to take the Elite spec trait line. That's an idea.

 

Other creative ways to make the F5 interesting are also plausible. Traits that change them completely to something else or other shinanigans only accessible to the Core Engie.

 

 

[Ghos.1326]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > Being locked out of an entire utility skill category also would feel really unfair as long as other classes don't have to give up a utility skill type as well....

>

> We already are. If you look on the Utility Skills, every class has 5 types with 4 skills each. Engineer has 4 types with 5 skills each.

>

> The idea of **boosting Core without having an impact on Holosmith and Scrapper** does not work. If we follow that path, our class will become even more broken.

>

> When you check other classes, you always end up weighting the pros and cons of each trait. You are never really happy, because you always sacrifice one traitline in favor of another. On Engineer, if you want something good, you go with either Scrapper or Holosmith. If you run Core, you weaken yourself. The Elite Specializations are designed to be stronger than Core. But in our case, the other traitlines are not powerful enough to get to a decent result at all.

>

> For now, they have started with a great Explosives rework. Many of us agree, there is barely a thing that does not work out there. But that is only one of five traitlines. We need a rework on the other 4 as well.

>

> Tools currently only enhances one kit (Toolkit) and gives utility buffs when using kits in general. No serious improvements to specific kits. For some weird reason, the Juggernaut trait is in Fire Arms.

>

> Inventions is our support-traitline. Some traits work great, others not even close. We lost RR because of its synergy with MDF, which was a hard blow. MDF is a mess alone, same goes for the Turret trait and the Turrets themselves. Automated BOMB Disperser, why is this in Inventions? Same goes for Bunker Down.

>

> Fire Arms, should stay as it is. So many of us rely on this trait, but it is also bodged together. Juggernaut is missplaced. As Kodama wrote in another thread, there is too much RNG.

>

> Alchemy, the sPvP players will hate me for this, but this traitline also has its flaws. There is Backpack Regenerator, which is a Kit trait. Health Insurance is a Support & Kit trait, but does not exist in either Tools or Inventions. Purity of Purpose, been there at pop patch. I still cannot laugh about this.

>

> When the other four traitlines are in the same state of Explosives, picking only Core traitlines would not be such a huge disadvantage anymore. The skills do have an impact on their own, Turrets and the Gadgets need an overhaul for sure.

>

> The F5 skill works as it is, in my opinion. It is already a trade-off. It would be nice if Orbital Strike had the same cast-time as the Function Gyro. In addition, Power Wrench should also affect the Elite Toolbelt. They can extend the cooldown of Photon Forge and Function Gyro in competitive, if they really see a problem. Those are the only changes I would apply on F5.

>

>

 

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING forgive me.

Juggernaut in Firearms is a good place to be, I don't agree it's misplaced. Flamethrower benefits greatly from crit chance, whether you run Juggernaut or Incendiary Powder, and Firearms is a trait line focused on both critical hits/chance and conditions. This allows the Flamethrower to be used as either a power weapon, or a condition focused utility kit.

 

Inventions was supposed to be the defensive line, focusing on healing and defensive tactics. But after Reconstruction Enclosure removed the ability to grant regeneration when using a heal skill (which synergized well with Energy Amplifier) and the removal of granting regen in general on the trait line itself, it fell off as our defensive option unfortunately. Now it's just a meme unless you run it with Alchemy, then the Alchemy + Inventions becomes one of the strongest defensive combinations in the game, but that's mostly just due to how powerful Alchemy is, and how much it enhances Inventions' usability with some of its traits.

 

Tools kind of reminds me of Warrior's Discipline trait line, being the utility line for Engineers. I think it's alright right now as is, maybe save a cooldown shave needed for Streamlined Kits, which would also probably then need to see some of its utility skills that procs with some of the kits shaved to match the cooldown shave from the trait.

 

Here are a few of my suggestions for some of the trait lines:

Firearms -

1) IF we keep the duration of the bleeds the same for the passive trait Sharpshooter the same, then increase its chance of actually activating, from 33% to 45%. If not, then increase the uptime of those bleeds again.

2) Remove Hematic Focus, and allow Sharpshooter to provide critical chance at a flat rate (makes sense for a line focused on critting and conditions, and sharpshooter thematically as a whole).

3) Serrated Steel moved to the Master Minor position, and take the old effects of what was Sharpshooter and combine it with Serrated Steel. So, chance to crit being 45% and bleeding lasting longer (if we keep the low bleed duration model), or keeping it the current 33% chance and raising the duration of the bleed to around 3s duration.

4) The new Grandmaster Minor trait would be Incendiary Powder, allowing burning to proc from critical hits. 1 stack of burning at a 10s ICD, the burning lasting for 5 seconds. OR, if they want to keep the burning at a low duration (say 2-3 seconds), lower the ICD to either 7 or 8s.

5) Then the new GM Major trait would need to be put in. I was thinking something that augmented Glob Shot on offhand pistol, but other ideas are also welcome.

 

Inventions -

1) Bring back the regen on heal in Reconstruction Enclosure for better synergy with the focus of the trait line: healing and defense. Keep the protection procc as well, good change but alone it's not really ideal and really only allows for one good GM trait to choose from, Anti-corrosive Plating.

2) Change Over Shield to get rid of the protection enhancement, and instead grant Protection to you for 2-3s when you are critically struck, on a 15-20s cd while also allowing shield skills to grant protection to allies AFTER their effects end to get the most use out of protection (Prot uptime 1s)

3) Experimental Turrets is fine, but turrets need to be revisited. They're stationary immobile objects, so their defensive capabilities should be greatly enhanced, either in damage mitigation or health, and turrets should also be able to overcharge more than once as a result of this as well. Set it to a set interval, nothing too short, but prevent the turrets from critting so that they don't do too much at once.

4) Change Bunker Down's functionality by removing the STUPID MEDKIT MECHANIC (as you can tell, I think it's a stupid idea) and either providing a special Engineer specific class buff that heals over the next 3-4s while the trait is in cd, while also dropping the mine at your location, or if anet really wants to keep the stupid medkit crap, they can at least cause the medkit to be dropped and act like a Battlefield 3 style medkit, providing healing procs around the medkit's location to you and allies.

5) Automated Medical Response should be changed to proc when you're at 50% hp instead of 25%. With how broken some things are currently, 25% HP will still get you killed, at least with half of your HP gone you can get the extra heal off to resustain and keep in the fight. Keep the high CD the same though, makes sense for a free extra heal.

6) Swap Soothing Detonation with Comeback Cure in Alchemy (also noted in Alchemy's plans)

 

Alchemy -

1) Comeback Cure with Soothing Detonation. Good swap in my opinion as Inventions should be about healing and defense, and providing another source of regen within Inventions would be more great synergy with Energy Amplifier.

2) Remove Compounding Chemicals, replace with Purity of Purpose, and put Compounding Chemicals' effects into new Purity of Purpose GM minor trait, but with a catch.

Condis convert to boons and then goes on an ICD, but they would last the duration of the condition clearing skill before going into cooldown. for example, if one was to use Purge Gyro, for as long as the Purge Gyro effect well is active, condis are converted to boons, but after that effect ends, it counts as using the PoP trait one time, thus going on a cd and no longer being able to convert condis to boons until it's off CD. this prevents needless overspamming of boons, but also has some synergy with the GM major trait Iron Blooded.

3) With how much conditions are strong due to current way burning and poison works after specialization patch years ago, bring back the condition clear on HGH. But only limit the condition clear on Elixir CONSUME, and not throws, or halve the condition clear on throws (1 instead of 2).

4) Introduce a new GM major trait to replace where Purity of Purpose was. My thoughts were something to do with Resistance, as it would fit the whole Elixir theme.

 

Explosives -

1) Either nerf the coefficient of Explosive Entrance, or remove its ability to crit.

2) Bring Flashbang's blind duration down to 1s flat. 1.5s is a flipping meme.

 

Scrapper -

1) I'd raise the uptime on Juggernaut's might duration back to 15s per stack of might, and lower the duration of might on Mass Momentum down to 3s. So you'd still keep a solid 8-9 stacks of might when pairing with Juggernaut, but this also prevents the Scrapper elite spec itself from becoming too strong. HOWEVER, I'd also see a change to how might is effected when taking this trait, much like Rev's Notoriety. You'd gain 10 more power and 10 less condition damage per stack of might gained, so 40 power and 20 condition damage per stack. I'm also playing around with the idea of adding bursts of superspeed every 10 or 15s for 2s when taking this trait, of course only if the superspeed passive is removed from the Scrapper line and replaced (see below).

2) Remove Speed of Synergy and replace with Rapid Recovery. This Adept Minor trait would improve the healing effectiveness of regen on you while you have regen by 1.5x. This could open up some synergy with Inventions to provide a player with a playstyle that would fit a tank style of play. Also, the removal of superspeed as a passive trait would greatly bring a balance to Scrapper as a whole, because anything that plays like a bunker should not be able to also zip around like a thief.

3) 2 possibilities for Expert Examination: either remove it and replace it with a skill that grants protection for activating a well, or change it to where it activates the effects upon SUCCESSFUL cc of an enemy (if the enemy has stab to negate the CC, it doesn't proc).

4) Still on the fence about a couple things regarding Impact Savant and Adaptive Armor. I was thinking either raise Impact Savant's damage to barrier's conversion effect to 20%, or swap places with Adaptive Armor and bring back its old functionality, granting barrier when struck on a 3 or 5s cd. Barrier would be lower than before, being at around only 500 barrier when struck. Condi damage mitigation can stay. Impact Savant would then see a nerf to its damage to barrier conversion to only 5%, but can be completely avoided as it would be the GM major trait (selectable trait).

 

If I think up any more ideas I'll probably keep them to myself, as to not add onto the great wall of ideas.

[Xaylin.1860]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Grandmaster trait investment to get 20% might duration. Yeah, that is literally a troll pick at that point. And that there are alternatives in the trait tree doesn't matter, I am talking about having the options here.

>

No reason to get upset. I said it was just nitpicking.

 

However, how are the other two alternatives on that tier not valid options if Holosmith was locked out of it? They are. There is absolutely no reason for every trait being appealing to every spec or build. That just doesn't make any sense.

 

> It also doesn't matter if not many people are not running flamethrower on holosmith currently. Taking away the option to do that would be just wrong in my opinion, as long as we don't also take away all core weapons from all the other elite specs except 2 sets (like in my example for daredevil).

>

 

It does matter. Because if we're arguing about something people might not care about, implementing such a change would go easier with the community. You argued yourself that many people might not like the idea. Regardless, just because something is pleasant or one is used to it, doesn't mean it is good for the overall game in the long run.

 

And no, it wouldn't be the same for all other classes. Because each class is different. So is each Elite spec. I wouldn't approve of such a suggestion for Scrapper. I do for Holo because of PF. The context matters.

 

> And asking about if grenades are actually the star of a holo build or not... do you play PvP? You know about the grenade holo build? You know, that one many people complain about that grenade kit is doing too much for them?

> Photon forge mostly is used their to get the high damage modifiers that it offers.

>

 

100nades has been a meme for ages. It's silly and nothing I'd like to see a class being balanced around. It's actually pretty similar to how Power Mesmer is basically stuck with the same bursty set up for PvP since release - with some minor variations, that is. And this shouldn't be the case when picking Elite specs, shouldn't it? Despite all this, Meta builds are very bad benchmarks for designing or balancing a class around. On the contrary, it should be concerning how important Grenades have yet again become for damage. Mostly because of 1 skill and its lesser version.

 

Photon Forge clearly is the main feature of Holo. If it is just used for modifiers... well... might be true after all the nerfs... Because Holo has been an Engineer+ when it was introduced and probably still is. But wouldn't it be more fun if it was more potent again for the trade off of being less flexible than core or Scrapper? To me it would. Again, just my opinion. I just feel that the current iteration of Holo doesn't make sense and ANet didn't have the courage to commit to anything severe when opting for the CD-thing on Toolbelt skills. At least that's my opinion and I'd rather discuss the topic openly than having another Chrono desaster.

 

> Oh, and another side effect you didn't consider: you entirely kill condition holo with that change. Because guess what? Almost all our condition damage from utility skills is located on kits!

 

Wrong. Condition Holo could easily work with some tweaks to Solar Focussing Lense, Incendiary Ammunition and a proper rework for Pistols (which would also benefit core Engineer). And ANet really needs to add Heat-Levels to Pistol and Rifle. Sure, if you just stripped Kits it would be a mess. But that's not what I've said.

 

> Condition holo currently runs: bomb kit, grenade kit, flamethrower. Holosmith itself offers not alot of condition damage, the photon forge is mostly focused on power. Just pf4 and pbm are offering some burn, but not enough to make a condition build work.

>

> So we are also hard locked into the power damage type when using holo....

>

 

See above. And even if there weren't any: There might be a good reason to focus Holo on Power/Hybrid rather than pure Condi.

 

 

> Nope, it definitely shouldn't have mainhand dagger. Mainhand dagger is a dps and burst weapon, something that daredevil is not supposed to be. It is a bruiser spec, something that is supposed to give survivability in the middle of the enemy. The only mainhand weapon that thief has that is from a bruiser type is sword, so they get to use mainhand sword, mainhand dagger needs to get deleted.

>

 

I said Dagger because this way Daredevil would only have *melee* weapons. This would make sense for a Brawler type spec and differs from core Thief. Dagger is important for DA since it offers additional access to Weakness which is a major part of Daredevil. Of course, you could get rid of Condi on DD... but I don't want to open up yet another topic. However, Mirroring Kits = Weapons being stripped to Thief without context does not make sense. Because guess what: Thief isn't defined by Toolbelts and Kits but by Steal and Initiative. You know better than that.

 

Still, I do sincerely like your Daredevil idea. I'm not mocking you. I like it because it makes sense conceptually.

 

I get that you don't like the idea for Holo. I guess we simply disagree on this specific topic. I just believe Elite specs need a more distinct and consistent design and purpose. And we won't get there when trying to uphold the status quo on everything. Trade offs hurt. But they might be worth it in the end.

 

> And no, I don't think that classes should be restricted to just 2 different weapons sets on elite spec. That just makes the game terrible to play, since I am hard locked into my weapons just because I want to play a specific elite spec. It takes a huge portion of the fun out of the game.

>

 

Personally, I never felt like I was lacking weapons when playing Holo even without any Kits. Because I got 2 weapon sets anytime. My normal weapon and PF. It actually was the first time I really enjoyed playing Engineer without any Kit at all. Maybe that is just me. But again: You could still run core Engineer or Scrapper. That's the point exactly.

 

Many Elite specs don't offer any significant changes to gameplay within a class. It is boring and it doesn't really meet what ANet has set out to do here. As it stands, most are just a premium traitline which also leads to significant balance issues since they were introduced. If people want this to change, they have to embrace proper trade offs and differences in playstyle when picking a certain Elite spec. Otherwise it will stay as it is. If you're fine with that, fair point. But core will most likely remain just an economy version of the Elite specs.

 

Of course, this should apply to **all classes**. Not just Engineer. I'm not here to get Holo nerfed...

 

 

[Peutrifectus.4830]

surly the way to buff any core spec is too have a series f traits that synergise spread between 3 core trait lines. Im not even going to spit ball suggestions buthaving a sick combo that requries 3 core trait lines to work is where u should look. Instead of buffing individual picks that any spec can choose

[Deniara Devious.3948]

This would be an easy fix:

changing between kits goes faster on core (e.g. 1/4 s instead of 1 s)

kits do less damage for those who equip elite specilization (e.g. 10 % less damage)

 

That would make core quite a bit of kit oriented. But most core builds have used at least a kit.

 

 

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Deniara Devious.3948" said:

> This would be an easy fix:

> changing between kits goes faster on core (e.g. 1/4 s instead of 1 s)

> kits do less damage for those who equip elite specilization (e.g. 10 % less damage)

>

> That would make core quite a bit of kit oriented. But most core builds have used at least a kit.

"Most", but you would still end up in a situation where some core specs get no advantage (because they have no kit) and some elite specs get no disadvantage (because they have have no kit either).

 

But I suppose Purity Of Purpose is something players has finally embraced too, lol.

 

I would still have prefered Anet used the weaponswap slot as a engineer mechanic - core gets a weaponswap kit of choice, for scrapper its the function gyro (passive since mechanic is F5) and for holo its the forge (also passive since mechanics is F5).

 

This would have given core a major boon over elites even when their mechanics are strong - all core engies would have 1 kit + 3 free utility slot.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> However, how are the other two alternatives on that tier not valid options if Holosmith was locked out of it? They are. There is absolutely no reason for every trait being appealing to every spec or build. That just doesn't make any sense.

 

Is there really no difference for you between being unappealing and being completely shut out? Because for me there is a heavy difference between these 2.

Even if something is unappealing, I am still able to chose it if the situation requires it. If something is locked out for me, then I don't have that choice. And we are talking about **alot** of choices getting forbidden for holosmith here.

 

> It does matter. Because if we're arguing about something people might not care about, implementing such a change would go easier with the community. You argued yourself that many people might not like the idea. Regardless, just because something is pleasant or one is used to it, doesn't mean it is good for the overall game in the long run.

As I have already proven, tho, kits are used for holosmith. Your suggestion here is to completely delete every single meta build that holosmith has. Which is completely alienating the playerbase and that is not a good decision, not even in the long run. You are destroying a fun elite spec because of your own preferences here. You don't need kits for holo, that's what you enjoy and that is fine. But the big majority of people thinks different here.

 

> 100nades has been a meme for ages. It's silly and nothing I'd like to see a class being balanced around. It's actually pretty similar to how Power Mesmer is basically stuck with the same bursty set up for PvP since release - with some minor variations, that is. And this shouldn't be the case when picking Elite specs, shouldn't it? Despite all this, Meta builds are very bad benchmarks for designing or balancing a class around. On the contrary, it should be concerning how important Grenades have yet again become for damage. Mostly because of 1 skill and its lesser version.

 

I don't say meta builds should be the benchmark here, but if you are proposing to change a spec that much that you are destroying every build for that spec that is currently used, then I see that as a problem, yes. Because as I said, it is alienating the playerbase.

 

> See above. And even if there weren't any: There might be a good reason to focus Holo on Power/Hybrid rather than pure Condi.

Scrapper as an elite spec is already required to get played as a power spec, because of the barrier generation. Now you want to tell me that it is a good thing to make our second out of 2 elite specs being required to run power also. I heavily disagree with that.

 

> I said Dagger because this way Daredevil would only have *melee* weapons.

 

Aha, so here you make a distinction that daredevil should just have "melee" weapons, but this is not possible for kits in your opinion? You want to take away all kits from holo, why didn't even the thought cross your mind to also be selective with the kits you are taking away? Honestly, sounds a bit biased here.

 

> Personally, I never felt like I was lacking weapons when playing Holo even without any Kits. Because I got 2 weapon sets anytime. My normal weapon and PF. It actually was the first time I really enjoyed playing Engineer without any Kit at all. Maybe that is just me. But again: You could still run core Engineer or Scrapper. That's the point exactly.

 

You really don't seem to get what I am talking about. Yes, you have 2 weapon sets available. But you are also kinda hard locked into these. Kits are a weapon replacement and allow us to chose between an arsenal of different weapons for different playstyles and that's what you want to take away from holosmith, hard locking them into their weapon choices.

 

Other classs have a big pool of weaons to chose from. Even elementalist, which also has a class mechanic that enhances the pool of skills it has in total, gets 10 different weapon combinations just for core.

 

Do you know how many different weapon combinations holosmith has?

Five: pistol/pistol, rifle, pistol/shield, sword/shield, sword/pistol

We already are the class with the smallest amount of weapon combinations in the game, **by far**. You want to restrict this even further for holosmith and install the trade off that reads "you HAVE to use these weapons, your trade off is that you are supposed to have the least build diversity in the game".

 

I can agree that maybe Anet should think about how to handle trade offs and that they probably should install something in holosmith, but locking them out of kits is definitely not the way to go-

[archmagus.7249]

Why would they want to make core engineer valuable when they are making money off the elite specs?

[wasss.1208]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> Why would they want to make core engineer valuable when they are making money off the elite specs?

 

Because elit specs were advertised as a sidegrade, not a straight up upgrade. It was meant to change your playstyle, not giving you advantage over those, who still prefer to play core. That is why we see more and more tradeoffs added, and more core builds becoming viable.

 

On the topic, for those who says F5 skills on core should be buffed: Sadly, for them to be able to carry core engineer, they have to be grossly overpowered. Then we are back to square one, where one skill carries a whole spec, and it becomes an I win button. Also, in my oppinion, the current F5 skills aren't bad. Med Pack Drop is like a second heal skill, that fullcleanses. It could be faster, yes, but it is pretty good in its current iteration. Toss Elixir X can swing a teamfight, if you hit multiple enemies with it. Orbital Strike is.... yeah. The kit it comes with is pretty good at least.

 

To those, who say, that core traits can't be buffed, because it would make elites even more powerful: That is why they need to buff multiple, currently underused traitlines. Elites might pick them up, and become problematic again, but they can nerf that, with a little foresight. Like how they should have touched Hard Light Arena, when Anticorrosion Plating was added. An another point people miss: if you make traits synergise with eachother, and you spread them out between at least three lines, elites just can't get the full package. They will have to give up something, and won't be able to get full value out of a synergy.

 

Alternatively it was mentioned here, and multiple times before: give core engineer a Kit, that can slotted on weapon swap. Currently, because of how bad core weapons are, you are forced to slot at least one kit and you are down to two utility slots. This basicly puts you in massive disadvantage compared to elit specs, which has Photon Forge, and Hammer, as well rounded kits.

So basicly, we could get the core revenant treatment.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"wasss.1208" said:

> > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > Why would they want to make core engineer valuable when they are making money off the elite specs?

>

> Because elit specs were advertised as a sidegrade, not a straight up upgrade. It was meant to change your playstyle, not giving you advantage over those, who still prefer to play core. That is why we see more and more tradeoffs added, and more core builds becoming viable.

>

> On the topic, for those who says F5 skills on core should be buffed: Sadly, for them to be able to carry core engineer, they have to be grossly overpowered. Then we are back to square one, where one skill carries a whole spec, and it becomes an I win button. Also, in my oppinion, the current F5 skills aren't bad. Med Pack Drop is like a second heal skill, that fullcleanses. It could be faster, yes, but it is pretty good in its current iteration. Toss Elixir X can swing a teamfight, if you hit multiple enemies with it. Orbital Strike is.... yeah. The kit it comes with is pretty good at least.

>

> To those, who say, that core traits can't be buffed, because it would make elites even more powerful: That is why they need to buff multiple, currently underused traitlines. Elites might pick them up, and become problematic again, but they can nerf that, with a little foresight. Like how they should have touched Hard Light Arena, when Anticorrosion Plating was added. An another point people miss: if you make traits synergise with eachother, and you spread them out between at least three lines, elites just can't get the full package. They will have to give up something, and won't be able to get full value out of a synergy.

>

> Alternatively it was mentioned here, and multiple times before: give core engineer a Kit, that can slotted on weapon swap. Currently, because of how bad core weapons are, you are forced to slot at least one kit and you are down to two utility slots. This basicly puts you in massive disadvantage compared to elit specs, which has Photon Forge, and Hammer, as well rounded kits.

> So basicly, we could get the core revenant treatment.

 

I like that idea, getting a kit without having to invest a utility slot would boost core engineer quite some and as you mentioned, you are pretty much required to bring at least 1 kit in every build you are using.

 

Only problem would most likely be that it would require some new UI. How are you going to determine which kit you are putting into the weapon swap?

[archmagus.7249]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"wasss.1208" said:

> > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > Why would they want to make core engineer valuable when they are making money off the elite specs?

> >

> > Because elit specs were advertised as a sidegrade, not a straight up upgrade. It was meant to change your playstyle, not giving you advantage over those, who still prefer to play core. That is why we see more and more tradeoffs added, and more core builds becoming viable.

> >

> > On the topic, for those who says F5 skills on core should be buffed: Sadly, for them to be able to carry core engineer, they have to be grossly overpowered. Then we are back to square one, where one skill carries a whole spec, and it becomes an I win button. Also, in my oppinion, the current F5 skills aren't bad. Med Pack Drop is like a second heal skill, that fullcleanses. It could be faster, yes, but it is pretty good in its current iteration. Toss Elixir X can swing a teamfight, if you hit multiple enemies with it. Orbital Strike is.... yeah. The kit it comes with is pretty good at least.

> >

> > To those, who say, that core traits can't be buffed, because it would make elites even more powerful: That is why they need to buff multiple, currently underused traitlines. Elites might pick them up, and become problematic again, but they can nerf that, with a little foresight. Like how they should have touched Hard Light Arena, when Anticorrosion Plating was added. An another point people miss: if you make traits synergise with eachother, and you spread them out between at least three lines, elites just can't get the full package. They will have to give up something, and won't be able to get full value out of a synergy.

> >

> > Alternatively it was mentioned here, and multiple times before: give core engineer a Kit, that can slotted on weapon swap. Currently, because of how bad core weapons are, you are forced to slot at least one kit and you are down to two utility slots. This basicly puts you in massive disadvantage compared to elit specs, which has Photon Forge, and Hammer, as well rounded kits.

> > So basicly, we could get the core revenant treatment.

>

> I like that idea, getting a kit without having to invest a utility slot would boost core engineer quite some and as you mentioned, you are pretty much required to bring at least 1 kit in every build you are using.

>

> Only problem would most likely be that it would require some new UI. How are you going to determine which kit you are putting into the weapon swap?

 

The class is balanced around kits, not weapon swapping. The distinction is that the latter has a 9s icd whereas kits effectively don't. The only reason they have the icd is to let the kit animation play, though we can still cancel a kit animation with the stow weapon key.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > @"wasss.1208" said:

> > > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > > Why would they want to make core engineer valuable when they are making money off the elite specs?

> > >

> > > Because elit specs were advertised as a sidegrade, not a straight up upgrade. It was meant to change your playstyle, not giving you advantage over those, who still prefer to play core. That is why we see more and more tradeoffs added, and more core builds becoming viable.

> > >

> > > On the topic, for those who says F5 skills on core should be buffed: Sadly, for them to be able to carry core engineer, they have to be grossly overpowered. Then we are back to square one, where one skill carries a whole spec, and it becomes an I win button. Also, in my oppinion, the current F5 skills aren't bad. Med Pack Drop is like a second heal skill, that fullcleanses. It could be faster, yes, but it is pretty good in its current iteration. Toss Elixir X can swing a teamfight, if you hit multiple enemies with it. Orbital Strike is.... yeah. The kit it comes with is pretty good at least.

> > >

> > > To those, who say, that core traits can't be buffed, because it would make elites even more powerful: That is why they need to buff multiple, currently underused traitlines. Elites might pick them up, and become problematic again, but they can nerf that, with a little foresight. Like how they should have touched Hard Light Arena, when Anticorrosion Plating was added. An another point people miss: if you make traits synergise with eachother, and you spread them out between at least three lines, elites just can't get the full package. They will have to give up something, and won't be able to get full value out of a synergy.

> > >

> > > Alternatively it was mentioned here, and multiple times before: give core engineer a Kit, that can slotted on weapon swap. Currently, because of how bad core weapons are, you are forced to slot at least one kit and you are down to two utility slots. This basicly puts you in massive disadvantage compared to elit specs, which has Photon Forge, and Hammer, as well rounded kits.

> > > So basicly, we could get the core revenant treatment.

> >

> > I like that idea, getting a kit without having to invest a utility slot would boost core engineer quite some and as you mentioned, you are pretty much required to bring at least 1 kit in every build you are using.

> >

> > Only problem would most likely be that it would require some new UI. How are you going to determine which kit you are putting into the weapon swap?

>

> The class is balanced around kits, not weapon swapping. The distinction is that the latter has a 9s icd whereas kits effectively don't. The only reason they have the icd is to let the kit animation play, though we can still cancel a kit animation with the stow weapon key.

 

And what does that have anything to do with what I said?

[archmagus.7249]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > > > @"wasss.1208" said:

> > > > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > > > Why would they want to make core engineer valuable when they are making money off the elite specs?

> > > >

> > > > Because elit specs were advertised as a sidegrade, not a straight up upgrade. It was meant to change your playstyle, not giving you advantage over those, who still prefer to play core. That is why we see more and more tradeoffs added, and more core builds becoming viable.

> > > >

> > > > On the topic, for those who says F5 skills on core should be buffed: Sadly, for them to be able to carry core engineer, they have to be grossly overpowered. Then we are back to square one, where one skill carries a whole spec, and it becomes an I win button. Also, in my oppinion, the current F5 skills aren't bad. Med Pack Drop is like a second heal skill, that fullcleanses. It could be faster, yes, but it is pretty good in its current iteration. Toss Elixir X can swing a teamfight, if you hit multiple enemies with it. Orbital Strike is.... yeah. The kit it comes with is pretty good at least.

> > > >

> > > > To those, who say, that core traits can't be buffed, because it would make elites even more powerful: That is why they need to buff multiple, currently underused traitlines. Elites might pick them up, and become problematic again, but they can nerf that, with a little foresight. Like how they should have touched Hard Light Arena, when Anticorrosion Plating was added. An another point people miss: if you make traits synergise with eachother, and you spread them out between at least three lines, elites just can't get the full package. They will have to give up something, and won't be able to get full value out of a synergy.

> > > >

> > > > Alternatively it was mentioned here, and multiple times before: give core engineer a Kit, that can slotted on weapon swap. Currently, because of how bad core weapons are, you are forced to slot at least one kit and you are down to two utility slots. This basicly puts you in massive disadvantage compared to elit specs, which has Photon Forge, and Hammer, as well rounded kits.

> > > > So basicly, we could get the core revenant treatment.

> > >

> > > I like that idea, getting a kit without having to invest a utility slot would boost core engineer quite some and as you mentioned, you are pretty much required to bring at least 1 kit in every build you are using.

> > >

> > > Only problem would most likely be that it would require some new UI. How are you going to determine which kit you are putting into the weapon swap?

> >

> > The class is balanced around kits, not weapon swapping. The distinction is that the latter has a 9s icd whereas kits effectively don't. The only reason they have the icd is to let the kit animation play, though we can still cancel a kit animation with the stow weapon key.

>

> And what does that have anything to do with what I said?

 

It would throw off the class balance for how many skills we can have use in combat. We already have the most skills available for use in combat (Holosmith with Holoforge, medkit, 3 utility kits, elite mortar kit, 4 toolbelt skills. (+1 if static discharge as it technically casts an elementalist skill) you want to add more available in combat skills.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> It would throw off the class balance for how many skills we can have use in combat. We already have the most skills available for use in combat (Holosmith with Holoforge, medkit, 3 utility kits, elite mortar kit, 4 toolbelt skills. (+1 if static discharge as it technically casts an elementalist skill) you want to add more available in combat skills.

 

I don't think it would throw off class balance. You mention holosmith as having the most skills available, but this suggestion is for **core engineer only**. So it doesn't affect holosmith at all.

 

Core engineer is terribly weak right now and could use a strong boost. And btw, your claim that engineer is the class with the most skills available is not correct. That title goes to elementalist.

Holosmith: 5 weapon skills, 5 photon forge skills, 5 med kit skills, 15 utility kit skills, 5 mortar kit skills, 4 toolbelt skills. Total: 39 skills

Elementalist: 20 weapon skills (5 for every attunement), 1 healing skill, 15 utility skills (you can slot 3 conjured weapons in these slots, each giving 5 skills like kits are doing, too), 5 skills from from elite conjured weapon. Total: 41

 

Considering that we are talking about core engineer here, the total number of skills available **with that buff** would be 40. Still less than elementalist.

And that comparison is just with core elementalist, weaver and tempest are increasing the number of their skills even further.

 

[wasss.1208]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Only problem would most likely be that it would require some new UI. How are you going to determine which kit you are putting into the weapon swap?

 

Before the build template+OoC weapon swap update, I would have said: Lets put it on the same place, where weapon swap is, and you would be able to pick, similar to how revenants pick a legend. The player pressing 0 (weapon swap) would bring up this kit. If the player is already in a kit, they would have to double tap 0, to quickly jump into it.

 

After the update, the best I can come up, at the moment is, it works during combat, and PvP matches, and deactivates outside of combat, and gets replaced by the weapon swap. This would bring up problems, like you won't be able to blast might/stealth in PvE/WvW, out of combat, with your extra kit. Alternatively, you could just choose to replace the OoC weapon swap, with this kit. In that sceniaro, bringing up the kit selection screen, would have the weapon swap option, along with your kits. This would have the obvious problem, where it baits newcomers into thinking, that Engineer has an actual weapon swap, but it is "bugged", and doesn't work in combat.

 

An additional issue would be the lack of toolbelt skills. My only ideas for this, would be: not giving this kit toolbelt, at all, or giving us a grandmaster trait, that uses the toolbelt skill, (with a wind-up, to avoid instant nade barrages) when you swap into this kit. This trait would have a similar cooldown, to your normal kit-toolbelt skill, and obviously, you wouldn't be able to slot a Med Kit here. This would have problems, like: you would have to wait when swapping in, until the toolbelt skill is done, making the extra kit clunky to use, and usually, it is undesirable to use the toolbelt skill randomly. (Big 'Ol Bomb in PvE, after your group already rounded up the enemies, for example) This solution obviously has flaws, but that is the best I can come up with, at the moment.

 

> @"archmagus.7249"

>It would throw off the class balance for how many skills we can have use in combat. We already have the most skills available for use in combat (Holosmith with Holoforge, medkit, 3 utility kits, elite mortar kit, 4 toolbelt skills. (+1 if static discharge as it technically casts an elementalist skill) you want to add more available in combat skills.

 

Having ~40 skills to use during combat simply doesn't make us viable, neither in PvE, or PvP. (also looking at Core Elementalist, which has the exact same issue, while it is also able to slot an insane amount of skills) Having the option to have at least one kit free, while beign able to pick utilities, that fulfill basic functions, would help a lot.

 

Furthermore, noone runs 5 kits Holosmith, and even if they did, they would have 39 skills, while Core, with a free kit could get a maximum of 40. The only difference would be having an actual F5 skill, and beign able to instantly swap to the free kit, and not be bothered with the 5 second cd on Photon Forge, heat mechanic, and kit lockout.

 

There is of course a chance that you are right, and a free kit would make Core Engineer broken OP. In that case, developers can simply choose to ignore this suggestion, this thread has multiple takes, on bringing up core, to viable levels.

[Yasai.3549]

Wild idea guys :

 

What if they gave Core Engi more weapons to work with.