[Discussion] Thief Balance Christmas 2020 Edition (Now with Shortbow)

[saerni.2584]

Hi all, looking for some feedback from the community about where thief could use some buffs or nerfs. We've been in a fairly stable spot overall recently. SA got nerfed somewhat in sPvP but the trend has been towards Anet treating thief as relatively balanced in the current meta.

 

So, what is underperforming? What is over-performing? What could use a tweak in mechanics? I'll summarize people's thoughts and make some suggestions of my own.

 

---

 

***Underperforming/Tweaks/QoL Bug Fixes***

* **Scorpion Wire** The projectile speed makes it unreliable. Increase the speed.

* **Dancing Dagger** The knife doesn't track well in the 600-900 range. Increase projectile speed or give it some target tracking for more reliability (there's enough projectile hate as it is).

* **Rending Shade** The fear feels thematically random and there aren't too many situations where a target won't have boons. Thematically, RS kind of mirrors TotC in Trickery. I'd make this a 2 boon corrupt with a bonus of inflicting weakness on boonless foes. Others suggest 3 boons stolen without the fear. Some, however, like the skill as is. There was also a suggestion to increase the boons stolen by 1 and otherwise keep as is. Last, there was a suggestion to make it fear around the target and not around the thief.

* **Backstab/Malicious Backstab** The damage modifier on MBS tends to make it impossible to justify a boost to BS itself. The difference between WvW and sPvP balancing for these skills means BS can hit very hard (9k in WvW) but in other scenarios will struggle to break 6k. The damage boost from MBS should be reduced and the base damage increased to compensate, in WvW/sPvP.

* **Deadeye's Mark** The pathing has been broken for certain PvE meta events (Octovine for example) where there is an immobile node that needs to be destroyed. Yet the Deadeye Mark can't find path to target. One solution is to make the Mark itself not require LoS and add a pathing check for adding the stolen skill.

* **Signet of Agility** The skill is somewhat overloaded in terms of Crit/Cleanse/Endurance. A lot of people relied on this skill for the extra dodge or cleanse. Nerfing the endurance gain in sPvP makes it less appealing and some players would revert the change given the defensive aspect is what appealed to them the most about the skill. Others view this nerf as reasonable to the extent that thief's survivability is carefully watched, given that active defense is the primary form of damage mitigation for thief.

 

***Shortbow Feedback***

* **Infiltrators Arrow** The change from 6 to 8 initiative cost in sPvP and WvW makes this the only thief weapon skill that cannot be cast more than once in a row from full initiative (with Trickery) without initiative regeneration. In this sense, the change actively violates the core of thief weapon design which emphasizes being able to use skills more than once in a row. This has led to people either suggesting the nerf be reversed or lessened, with some decrease in utility for Infiltrator's Arrow, or buffs be made to other skills on Shortbow to compensate given how underperforming the weapon set has been.

* Suggestion 1: Remove blind and reduce initiative cost back to 6 or 7. This option is based on the idea that increasing the cost so drastically unintentionally violates core thief gameplay mechanics (and represents more than 50% of total thief weapon skill resources).

* Suggestion 2: Increase bonus damage from Autoattack to poisoned enemies. (This would move SB more into a damage weapon direction). This is based on the idea that if the weapon set can't be a mobility utility weapon it should have the only other kind of utility we'd expect a thief to have—damage.

* Suggestion 3: Make Infiltrator's Arrow have a flip skill with a duration of 2 seconds. Make the first skill cost 6. Make the second skill cost 8 initiative and be called "Infiltrator's Retreat." This is based on the concerns about it being too easy for a thief to run away, but it allows a skilled player who plays around the flip skill to still have similar mobility (while being unable to spam it).

* Suggestion 4: Make IA return initiative if it blinds a target. This is based on the idea that a skill that actually "infiltrates" should be usable as such, and it promotes using SB as an engagement tool in certain contexts where a thief is saving other teleports.

 

***Acrobatics Traitline Refresh***

* **Minor Traits**

* **Tier 1**

* **Tier 2**

* **Tier 3**

 

***Other Bugs***

* **Obstructed** There are a lot of obstruction issues for projectiles. See:

[Fueki.4753]

Scorpion Wire is fine. It doesn't need a change.

It has two charges, so just throw a second wire, if the first one is dodged.

 

Dancing Dagger applies Torment and Cripple and bounces of to three times.

I don't think it needs to be faster.

Making it unblockable when it's a combo finisher might be a nice change though.

 

Rending Shade should just remove three boons instead and not apply Fear.

There already is too much CC anyway.

But Stealth Attacks, which have no reasonable counterplay, and related shouldn't be buffed too much.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> Scorpion Wire is fine. It doesn't need a change.

> It has two charges, so just throw a second wire, if the first one is dodged.

>

> Dancing Dagger applies Torment and Cripple and bounces of to three times.

> I don't think it needs to be faster.

> Making it unblockable when it's a combo finisher might be a nice change though.

>

> Rending Shade should just remove three boons instead and not apply Fear.

> There already is too much CC anyway.

> But Stealth Attacks, which have no reasonable counterplay, and related shouldn't be buffed too much.

 

Both Wire and Dagger are decent skills but fail in certain cases due to distance and the issues that non-homing projectiles have in the game code. I think of these as more quality of life changes than buffs because a ranged skill should be usable at range.

 

RS could alternatively just be 3 boons and no fear. I'll add that to the OP.

[kash.9213]

I'd like Rending Shade to stay how it is. I like taking full stacks when it hits one and corrupting them wouldn't leave me any for Premeditation. I also like the fear which can give me interrupt boon steal and healing when I slot for those, even if it's not under great stipulation.

 

I don't know if Binding Shadow is still a thing for anyone but I feel like that would be fine with just Immob or preferably the Knockdown and boon steal. That poison and especially Vuln is heavy and the Kockdown can be another interrupt for stuff to trigger off of so either that or Immob, not both. But I don't see it around much anymore so probably not a big deal.

 

Pathing is killer in places at least in WvW, especially were there are destructible structures like walls but also some small curb rises in places like SM but in open world also where nothing that ports or needs the space or length to work in. Either those locations need to be worked on or thief port or pathing skills need to be looked at.

[GewRoo.4172]

(double post)

[GewRoo.4172]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> Hi all, looking for some feedback from the community about where thief could use some buffs or nerfs. We've been in a fairly stable spot overall recently. SA got nerfed somewhat in sPvP but the trend has been towards Anet treating thief as relatively balanced in the current meta.

>

> So, what is underperforming? What is over-performing? What could use a tweak in mechanics? I'll summarize people's thoughts and make some suggestions of my own.

>

Thief here.

 

1. Shadow Arts needs further attention. Concealing Restoration and Meld with Shadows need a rework. The idea behind these traits is just busted in the context of wvw/spvp. Hidden Thief is fine in my opinion.

2. Acrobatics needs a rework. Instant Reflexes and Hard to Catch are (rightfully) disabled or useless at the moment. Problem is, this resulted in the whole specialization just being unplayable. Rework these traits but **do not consider giving me more evades**. Be creative, please. I do not mind if ANet even kills Shadow Arts if I am able to play a viable yet reasonable version of Acrobatics again.

3. Daredevil's Physical skills are a very cool theme and the implemention isn't even bad but dmg/utility wise they are far too weak to be a considerable option in spvp and wvw (except Bandit's Defense and Impact Strike).

4. The concept of "without offhand" did not even take form in the game. They are just data. Rework and/or buff in every area needed.

5. There are some useless and underperforming skills but I do not mind them personally. While Devourer Venom may find its niche, Ice Drake Venom and Caltrops are just memes.

 

Edit: Spelling

[saerni.2584]

> @"GewRoo.4172" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > Hi all, looking for some feedback from the community about where thief could use some buffs or nerfs. We've been in a fairly stable spot overall recently. SA got nerfed somewhat in sPvP but the trend has been towards Anet treating thief as relatively balanced in the current meta.

> >

> > So, what is underperforming? What is over-performing? What could use a tweak in mechanics? I'll summarize people's thoughts and make some suggestions of my own.

> >

> Thief here.

>

> 1. Shadow Arts needs further attention. Concealing Restoration and Meld with Shadows need a rework. The idea behind these traits is just busted in the context of wvw/spvp. Hidden Thief is fine in my opinion.

> 2. Acrobatics needs a rework. Instant Reflexes and Hard to Catch are (rightfully) disabled or useless at the moment. Problem is, this resulted in the whole specialization just being unplayable. Rework these traits but **do not consider giving me more evades**. Be creative, please. I do not mind if ANet even kills Shadow Arts if I am able to play a viable yet reasonable version of Acrobatics again.

> 3. Daredevil's Physical skills are a very cool theme and the implemention isn't even bad but dmg/utility wise they are far too weak to be a considerable option in spvp and wvw (except Bandit's Defense and Impact Strike).

> 4. The concept of "without offhand" did not even take form in the game. They are just data. Rework and/or buff in every area needed.

> 5. There are some useless and underperforming skills but I do not mind them personally. While Devourer Venom may find its niche, Ice Drake Venom and Caltrops are just memes.

>

> Edit: Spelling

 

Please feel free to make suggestions on how to replace or upgrade specific skills.

 

I'm not sure why Meld with Shadows is broken for example, since it's been in the game since the beginning. You need more explanation of the "problem" you are "solving." Concealing Restoration was also nerfed recently. So I guess my question is "how are these overpowered" and "what would you rework SA to be" given that you also want unspecified buffs to Acro (and suggest trading SA for Acro as though it should be sacrificed one for the other. But it's hard to judge if the sacrifice you suggest would be worth it because you didn't provide concrete suggestions for either SA or Acro.

 

You are right on caltrops not being used. But the question is why and what to buff it with. Are we asking for more bleed or a longer field duration? Should ice venom be longer lasting but remain fewer charges? These are the kinds of concrete suggestions I'd encourage everyone to be making.

[vardeleanu.8972]

I'd rather see scorpion wire work with trickster reduced recharge, as even if the projectile itself is it unreliable, the skill usually hits since no one expects the scorpion wire.

But I'm just going to say gl hf getting someone from anet to read forums and change the game acording to what people want. There are bugs as old as the game still not fixed.

[saerni.2584]

> @"vardeleanu.8972" said:

> I'd rather see scorpion wire work with trickster reduced recharge, as even if the projectile itself is it unreliable, the skill usually hits since no one expects the scorpion wire.

> But I'm just going to say gl hf getting someone from anet to read forums and change the game acording to what people want. There are bugs as old as the game still not fixed.

 

Anet has implemented multiple suggestions in the past. It's not that they don't listen it's that people make suggestions that 1) ignore Anet's design direction based on their previous patches, 2) don't provide concrete suggestions, 3) provide wildly unrealistic suggestions that require a major work of the entire game, 4) provide suggestions without justifying why they make sense or how they fit into the overall balance.

 

I highly recommend that people make suggestions. I also highly recommend they take the time to provide more than "I don't think the design is good." That's not helpful and doesn't have a high likelihood of making it into the game.

[aleron.1438]

Rending shade: +1 boon stolen

Shadow Gust: 1 boon removed, stability priority, ammo charge 2, remove stealth, 40s CD

Shadow flare: ammo charge 3 (2 is meh, SoJ says hi) 60s cd

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"aleron.1438" said:

> Rending shade: +1 boon stolen

> Shadow Gust: 1 boon removed, stability priority, ammo charge 2, remove stealth, 40s CD

> Shadow flare: ammo charge 3 (2 is meh, SoJ says hi) 60s cd

>

 

I'd be fine with this, provided they shaved some utility off of binding shadow. DE would have too much boonrip & control on the bar otherwise.

[Zacchary.6183]

permastelth teef too stronk delet pls thx

[Ramiel.1405]

I'd just like iconic thief stealth dagger backstab to be viable without needing deadeye's malice. Or even with deadeye make it at least competitive with rifle. It doesn't cleave, is melee range and in non boss fights enough of a hassle to set up to warrant a raw damage boost imo. The problem is obviously pvp where an undetectable one shot is ofc unacceptable, but some creative adjustment in pvp while keeping the theme and feel of backstabs should not be outside the realm of possibilities. Hell just keep the damage at current levels in pvp.

 

Thief was the first class I really got into in gw2. I first started playing when HoT was already around. I remembered feeling so cheated getting daredevil because it obsoleted my beloved thief play style. Please give stealth dagger thief some love.

[saerni.2584]

I've updated OP a bit and will continue to do so. I've woken up from my Turkey slumber lol.

 

There's also a few other threads about issues I've seen pop up. I'll monitor those and add in issues to OP, but best way is still to post in this thread.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Are you happy with the recent changes? /s

[knite.1542]

I hate this:

Infiltrator's Arrow: Increased initiative cost from 6 to 8 in PvP and WvW.

[kash.9213]

> @"knite.1542" said:

> I hate this:

> Infiltrator's Arrow: Increased initiative cost from 6 to 8 in PvP and WvW.

 

It would be nice if they could move that blind then to something less expensive. Or they could decrees the cost of other skills to let us do more in between trying to not get exploded in seconds.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"knite.1542" said:

> > I hate this:

> > Infiltrator's Arrow: Increased initiative cost from 6 to 8 in PvP and WvW.

>

> It would be nice if they could move that blind then to something less expensive. Or they could decrees the cost of other skills to let us do more in between trying to not get exploded in seconds.

 

I got told thief should 'stick and die, or win'. I feel like these changes are close to being made with that 'idea' in mind. The devs clearly took to heart when people complained about the essence of thief's playstyle: active evasion tools. Because let's be honest; pretty much every defensive skill and trait in thief's arsenal is proactive and not a passive.

[kash.9213]

> @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"knite.1542" said:

> > > I hate this:

> > > Infiltrator's Arrow: Increased initiative cost from 6 to 8 in PvP and WvW.

> >

> > It would be nice if they could move that blind then to something less expensive. Or they could decrees the cost of other skills to let us do more in between trying to not get exploded in seconds.

>

> I got told thief should 'stick and die, or win'. I feel like these changes are close to being made with that 'idea' in mind. The devs clearly took to heart when people complained about the essence of thief's playstyle: active evasion tools. Because let's be honest; pretty much every defensive skill and trait in thief's arsenal is proactive and not a passive.

 

And the sad thing is that will only force someone like me to start playing the way they don't like. No way I'm going broke from Initiative cost and having my resources tampered with while trying to hang around and take a hit, I'd put everything into a nasty stealth bomb them bug out for the most egregious resets

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> > > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > > @"knite.1542" said:

> > > > I hate this:

> > > > Infiltrator's Arrow: Increased initiative cost from 6 to 8 in PvP and WvW.

> > >

> > > It would be nice if they could move that blind then to something less expensive. Or they could decrees the cost of other skills to let us do more in between trying to not get exploded in seconds.

> >

> > I got told thief should 'stick and die, or win'. I feel like these changes are close to being made with that 'idea' in mind. The devs clearly took to heart when people complained about the essence of thief's playstyle: active evasion tools. Because let's be honest; pretty much every defensive skill and trait in thief's arsenal is proactive and not a passive.

>

> And the sad thing is that will only force someone like me to start playing the way they don't like. No way I'm going broke from Initiative cost and having my resources tampered with while trying to hang around and take a hit, I'd put everything into a nasty stealth bomb them bug out for the most egregious resets

 

Precisely what I'm worried for. This'll end up having the effect opposite of intended. Mark my words, though, more nerfs are coming. At this rate, Infiltrator's Strike and Return are next on the line. Then Withdraw and Roll for Initiative. Assassin's Signet, for sure - that one I'm almost 100% positive on.

[Trianox.3486]

I wish shortbow was made stronger damage wise and become a viable PvE option, while still offering lower damage than pistol or rifle.

 

- Autoattack: boost the DMG multiplier from 25% to 50% when target is poisoned (or more!),

- Cluster bomb spit one burning stack of 3 secondes on the landing of the non-exploded shell.

- Disabling shot: successfully evading a hit refunds one initiative.

- Chocking gaz, from 3 to 4 seconds, from 4 to 5 pulses, add a 2 daze if poison stacks exceed hits 5 or above;

- Infiltrator arrow... What if... COST and RANGE was cut in half when you click, but when you hold before click, regular cost and range. I think it could be fun and actually interesting.

- OR just straight up cut PvE cost from 6 to 5 or even 4. I don't see the issue for such a heavy cost skill, especially when SA traits for shadowstep and blind bonuses aren't that powerful to start with, in PvE context.

 

 

[saerni.2584]

I've added some Shortbow feedback to the OP. I'm not done, obviously there are a lot of good ideas and plenty of options, so please keep adding your feedback.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

honest humble opinion here: on a dev client (offline mode) completely rework each skill from the ground up then apply fixes or adjustments on each, make a PTS so we can test it or have the dev team look at it, then we can come back to playable classes and traits that actually feel useful.

[appelflap.8310]

I would like to see a nerf on daredevil dodges from 3 to 2 or SA traitline needs to be nerfed. I'd rather see daredevil dodge nerf so core and deadeye can still make use of SA traitline. Daredevils still have access to endurance thief, channeled vigor, bountiful theft and signet of agility that boost your endurance gain wich basically all daredevils use. It's just the combination of SA traitline and 3 dodges with all the endurance gaining traits/utilities that makes this spec unkillable.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Hello, I just want to ask you thieves and the ones that pvp, how has this sbow change affected the decap role? A lot/some/none? If it has drastically changed it, what role do thieves have now for pvp? Just as +1 and no decap? Sounds painful to decap waiting for the ini to regen trying to get where you want lol. Will you guys be using shadow portal more? Or just drop sbow instead?