My honest feelings about map mob difficulty in PoF

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"zistenz.1945" said:

> I'm a casual player. My two 4+ year old mains is a power no-minions chill shout/well semi-meta reaper, and semi-meta survival/stance condi soulbeast. I have other characters too but I play these two almost exclusively all the time.

> - In PoF my reaper can mow down almost anything, even the locked breakbar veterans and elites too, by brute force, in a half minute, tops. He has a full asc marauder set and weapons (the usual gs + axe/wh combo). This is the level of equipment and pure force that could say _"it's manageable easily"_, or _"spamming '1' could kill anything"_ - this is a big, fat lie, but for the sake of simplicity, let's say it. I can't solo champs or legendaries, but that's the lack of my player skills, of course.

> - My soulbeast is just at the beginning of the item grind, having a full exotic carrion set and weapons (d/t + sb) with some viper's trinkets, and he has some asc here and there, like an Occam's coat and a dagger. He can somewhat manage it in PoF; I soloed and finished almost all the maps, but it is definitely much-much slower than the reaper. He needs much more mobility, dodge, condi clean, weapon swapping, changing the tactics between melee and ranged - it requires much more attention to play. While his hard and soft CCs are much better than the reaper's, since most of the breakbar enemies clearly ignore many condition effects (like slow, or immobility), it is definitely harder and slower to solo kill them until their bar breaks and/or hp melts - while all the enemies start to harass me and mob on me from every corner of the map...

>

> But, in HoT, both are viable almost equally. In fact, even my soulbeast can solo some of the hp champs or roaming veteran groups. The significant difference between HoT and PoF is the aggro range / respawn rate and the huge condi spam (huge as in _"constantly pulses"_ and _"disgustingly long"_...), those are the main problems, and make the life much harder for condi characters in PoF.

>

> OP is a condi user, with even better set than me (trailblazer), so I can sympathize with him/her. It is not a "git gud", nor "learn to play" issue, it is some design miscalculation.

>

 

I'm not sure I understand why condition-based builds are at a disadvantage when compared to power builds in terms of dealing with condition pressure? Are you suggesting that the combination of high aggro range forcing players to deal with more enemies combined with movement-impairing conditions and the naturally slower burst of condition builds result in fights taking too long and respawn becoming more of an issue?

 

If so, I wouldn't rule out build or "L2P" as issues. While it's true that power builds burst harder and are better for quickly clearing trash, a good open world condi build should not be so slow that respawn timers and condition pressure are an issue specifically for these builds.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"Innokatsu.2937" said:

> > > I feel OP, but I think mobs should stay the way they are.

> > >

> > > When I first got to HoT maps, VB to be exact, i wanted to quit. I leveled to 80, bought full exotic gear and decent exotic weapons and accessories, only to be murdered by VB mobs in 3 -5 hits. Didn't really matter if I used berserker or knight, i got murdered by everything. Everywhere I went, these things are there, compounded by the maze-like map. CC, bleeds/poison, and those stupid snipers. Mobs in this game are insane, I hated it initially but this also forced me to sit down and study my build, my rotation and change my general approach to mobs. I stopped charging in and started planning, and avoided as many as possible by finding shortcuts or following other players. OH and I had no mounts til near the end of the HoT story.

> > >

> > > I honestly think this is better and more realistic. You are playing a flesh and blood character just like the mobs in front of you, and half of the time they are bigger and physically stronger. So it makes logical sense for them to be able to kill you in a few hits. Don't want to die? Avoid them, be smart with your skills, or ask for more bodies to help you. This isn't a fantasy game that your character is basically a god. I understand some people aren't accustomed to this, but this is actually what makes gw2 special.

> >

> > WTH? at this point, the character has taken down several demi gods. ancient beings, that could commmand death itself, and literally CREATE swarms of minions.

> > not only are they still sending us on grunt duty, they try to make it look like it is NORMAL.

>

> This assumes that every player plays through all of the chapters of the story in order. I know many that don't, myself included. I enjoy the exploration aspects of GW2 and don't really care about the lore/story. The way that I want to play the game is adversely affected in PoF maps because of the aforementioned aggro radius and respawn rates.

 

same here, but we are clearly the minority among those, that continue to play. and the game doesnt support this difference either, i havent killed zhaitan

on most of my toons, they were treated the same, as those, who did. i only bought pof after the reading about how "casual" it is. lol on me..

this isnt casual, it is just annoying.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > And what is that "inbetween solution" you're talking about? Changing the range so you can freely ignore everything to get free shinies, not even zooming past the threat on a mount, but also just walking up to any chest you see? That's not the point of this game when you enter the area that's clearly not meant to be a friendly one. Also that's hardly an "inbetween".

> > >

> > > Well, how about the way HoT handles it? It's arguably more challenging than PoF, yet the aggro radius is not expanded the way it is in PoF. Why is it fine in HoT and not in PoF?

> >

> > I already wrote in the previous post what's the difference between HoT and PoF, it seems pretty obvious why the mobs changed between these expansions.

>

> Sorry, I don't have the patience to dig through all the back-and-forth to find whatever point you may have had, but I'm going to guess it's the tried-and-not-so-true "mounts" excuse?

>

> If the purpose of increased aggro range was to act as an obstacle to mounted players, it was misguided. Walking past or flying over enemies is trivial. But there is no avoiding getting stuck in combat when dismounting and then having to clear a wide area before you can get out of combat and re-mount. Many players quite rightly find this annoying and unnecessary.

 

It's not exactly an "excuse", it's a fact (a "fact" being that the mounts gave the players much more power to engage/avoid the fights; I'm not saying "it's a fact this is the reason", because there's no way for anyone other than anet to know that for sure). And most of the time you can clear the area while you're unmounting, so then you do whatever you wanted to do and easly re-mount.

Seriously, I don't remember it being a major (or probably even just noticable) problem for me other than some individual cases of long lasting conditions keeping me "in fight" while I'm not really in fight, which is why I see it mostly as the problem of the players that don't want to interact with the mobs almost at all, which isn't exactly reasonable in this game.

 

> Yet HoT exists as it always did even though purchasing PoF now also gives players access to HoT. Is the lower aggro range in HoT a problem? I certainly don't hear many players complaining that the combat has been trivialized by mounts. Wouldn't that make sense if the premise is that mounts make open world too easy because of their ability to bypass enemies?

 

HoT has some more convoluted/crowded maps, while PoF maps have more open space for better/easier mount usage (also, thematically desert-ish design, whichever "came first"). At the moment of HoT release -surprise, I know!- we didn't have mounts in the game. Do you really think everything in the game should be redesigned from the base beacuse at later expansions we got mounts? And how would that work for the people that get into the game and play through it in the correct order, so they still initially go through HoT while not having mounts available?

And yes, mounts did make those maps easier, still not sure how that's any kind of valid point here. You can't reasonably expect anet to change the maps backwards when playing chronologically people don't have mounts in those maps, which would simply force them to play out of order. That's nonsense.

[sitarskee.5738]

I don't see it as a problem especially having mounts.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > And what is that "inbetween solution" you're talking about? Changing the range so you can freely ignore everything to get free shinies, not even zooming past the threat on a mount, but also just walking up to any chest you see? That's not the point of this game when you enter the area that's clearly not meant to be a friendly one. Also that's hardly an "inbetween".

> > > >

> > > > Well, how about the way HoT handles it? It's arguably more challenging than PoF, yet the aggro radius is not expanded the way it is in PoF. Why is it fine in HoT and not in PoF?

> > >

> > > I already wrote in the previous post what's the difference between HoT and PoF, it seems pretty obvious why the mobs changed between these expansions.

> >

> > Sorry, I don't have the patience to dig through all the back-and-forth to find whatever point you may have had, but I'm going to guess it's the tried-and-not-so-true "mounts" excuse?

> >

> > If the purpose of increased aggro range was to act as an obstacle to mounted players, it was misguided. Walking past or flying over enemies is trivial. But there is no avoiding getting stuck in combat when dismounting and then having to clear a wide area before you can get out of combat and re-mount. Many players quite rightly find this annoying and unnecessary.

>

> It's not exactly an "excuse", it's a fact (a "fact" being that the mounts gave the players much more power to engage/avoid the fights; I'm not saying "it's a fact this is the reason", because there's no way for anyone other than anet to know that for sure). And most of the time you can clear the area while you're unmounting, so then you do whatever you wanted to do and easly re-mount.

> Seriously, I don't remember it being a major (or probably even just noticable) problem for me other than some individual cases of long lasting conditions keeping me "in fight" while I'm not really in fight, which is why I see it mostly as the problem of the players that don't want to interact with the most almost at all, which isn't exactly reasonable in this game.

>

> > Yet HoT exists as it always did even though purchasing PoF now also gives players access to HoT. Is the lower aggro range in HoT a problem? I certainly don't hear many players complaining that the combat has been trivialized by mounts. Wouldn't that make sense if the premise is that mounts make open world too easy because of their ability to bypass enemies?

>

> HoT has some more convoluted/crowded maps, while PoF maps have more open space for better/easier mount usage (also, thematically desert-ish design, whichever "came first"). At the moment of HoT release -surprise, I know!- we didn't have mounts in the game. Do you really think everything in the game should be redesigned from the base beacuse at later expansions we got mounts? And how would that work for the people that get into the game and play through it in the correct order, so they still initially go through HoT while not having mounts available?

> And yes, mounts did make those maps easier, still not sure how that's any kind of valid point here. You can't reasonably expect anet to change the maps backwards when playing chronologically people don't have mounts in those maps, which would simply force them to play out of order. That's nonsense.

 

blizzard redesigned much of the game, when they introduced flying mounts. and and anet also added the no mount zones near the puzzles.

hot maps should have the same aggro range and respawn buff as pof has

[battledrone.8315]

> @"sitarskee.5738" said:

> I don't see it as a problem especially having mounts.

 

when you have to clear the same mobs over and over to get mounted again, then it just becomes a chore. and they will aggro so far away, and bring all their buddies too.

the alternative? grind out skyscale, or stop playing.

[sitarskee.5738]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"sitarskee.5738" said:

> > I don't see it as a problem especially having mounts.

>

> when you have to clear the same mobs over and over to get mounted again, then it just becomes a chore. and they will aggro so far away, and bring all their buddies too.

> the alternative? grind out skyscale, or stop playing.

 

Trash and veterans die pretty fast, I honestly never had such a problem. What I think requires fixing is being in combat - sometimes it last for around 20 seconds after you killed something. Now this is a real issue.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"sitarskee.5738" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"sitarskee.5738" said:

> > > I don't see it as a problem especially having mounts.

> >

> > when you have to clear the same mobs over and over to get mounted again, then it just becomes a chore. and they will aggro so far away, and bring all their buddies too.

> > the alternative? grind out skyscale, or stop playing.

>

> Trash and veterans die pretty fast, I honestly never had such a problem. What I think requires fixing is being in combat - sometimes it last for around 20 seconds after you killed something. Now this is a real issue.

 

this may come as a surprise, but just because you didnt have any problems , that doesnt mean, that nobody else did. and i actually preferred the quick , explosive death in hot over the slow whittling down in pof. but pof just felt like a long slug fest IMO. i ended up spending a lot of money on teleporting, simply because it was a chore to

get from point a to b. the maps look stunning, but they are as treacherous, as can be. at least hot was consistent in that regard.

[sitarskee.5738]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"sitarskee.5738" said:

> > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > @"sitarskee.5738" said:

> > > > I don't see it as a problem especially having mounts.

> > >

> > > when you have to clear the same mobs over and over to get mounted again, then it just becomes a chore. and they will aggro so far away, and bring all their buddies too.

> > > the alternative? grind out skyscale, or stop playing.

> >

> > Trash and veterans die pretty fast, I honestly never had such a problem. What I think requires fixing is being in combat - sometimes it last for around 20 seconds after you killed something. Now this is a real issue.

>

> this may come as a surprise, but just because you didnt have any problems , that doesnt mean, that nobody else did. and i actually preferred the quick , explosive death in hot over the slow whittling down in pof. but pof just felt like a long slug fest IMO. i ended up spending a lot of money on teleporting, simply because it was a chore to

> get from point a to b. the maps look stunning, but they are as treacherous, as can be. at least hot was consistent in that regard.

 

I am so shocked, really?

 

But if they actually would change how being in combat works to be more fluid, it would also help with your issue!

[Sobx.1758]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"sitarskee.5738" said:

> > I don't see it as a problem especially having mounts.

>

> when you have to clear the same mobs over and over to get mounted again, then it just becomes a chore. and they will aggro so far away, and bring all their buddies too.

 

Which spots are so problematic for you?

[Linken.6345]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"sitarskee.5738" said:

> > > I don't see it as a problem especially having mounts.

> >

> > when you have to clear the same mobs over and over to get mounted again, then it just becomes a chore. and they will aggro so far away, and bring all their buddies too.

>

> Which spots are so problematic for you?

 

All of them mate

[Mungo Zen.9364]

I tend to disagree with the idea that mobs need changes to suit the player needs/wants.

 

I do agree that it can be annoying or frustrating to have mobs respawn quickly, or for long range agro to pull them, or to be stuck with condi's on you. However, if we, as the player, understand that 'if I go to this area, I will face X mob, which has this ability' then we can also preplan how we are going to approach this area.

 

If we assume that the existing mobs in HoT and PoF will continue to remain relatively unchanged, then isn't this a signal to consider how we approach those parts of the game? We are given a large toolbox to work with these types of challenges, we should be using them.

 

For example, if a player is telling you that they have problems with conditions at the end of combat, one would suggest they look at condi cleanse on demand to help with that situation. If the player decides they don't want the condi cleanse, which is fine, then they are also responsible to themselves for accepting that they have an alternative to being stuck in combat but decided that was a preferable to have another skill available.

 

Open World has a statement you hear tossed around a lot: "It is Open World, it doesn't matter what build/skills you bring" which is really an unfair comment to the average player. It does matter what build you are running and what skills you use in Open World, you will need to cleanse conditions, self heal, CC for breakbar etc and on some professions and builds that won't always be the most appealing choice to make.

 

As well, not all players are going to need to make the same choices. If we accept that different players have different skill levels, and different ability and engagement to play the game, then it stands to reason that cookie cutter builds won't work for everyone in every situation (nor will cookie cutter advice).

 

And if the build and skills you choose are still not enough to overcome some situations, then it is time for tactical planning. Do I run up to the Rich Ori Node and pull the mobs with me, or do I clear the mobs as I move up to the node? In both cases the player is making the choice on how they want to face inevitable combat, but is the player making the best choice for their style of play and chosen build?

 

I really want to avoid saying 'Git Gud' here, however I strongly advocate for players to explore the profession they are playing and the tools they have available to them. Every class has been given the tools to overcome most typical combat situations, it is up to the player to decide if they want to explore and experience these tools and then know when to use them appropriately.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > @"sitarskee.5738" said:

> > > > I don't see it as a problem especially having mounts.

> > >

> > > when you have to clear the same mobs over and over to get mounted again, then it just becomes a chore. and they will aggro so far away, and bring all their buddies too.

> >

> > Which spots are so problematic for you?

>

> All of them mate

 

Now that's just funny to me, because I don't see that at all.

[zistenz.1945]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> Are you suggesting that the combination of high aggro range forcing players to deal with more enemies combined with movement-impairing conditions and the naturally slower burst of condition builds result in fights taking too long and respawn becoming more of an issue?

 

Yes, something like that. Mobs usually aren't an issue, they melt fast - not as fast as a power user, but steadily. But the time until we can mount up our pressure to an useful level is longer, and that could be more dangerous when facing a locked bar enemy - they often ignore the movement and effect-based conditions, and zip through or evade the traps/fields. During that time there's more chance to (re)appear other annoying mobs that could pose a serious threat (sharpshooters, jacarandas, vampire bats, etc.).

When I stop for something on the map (gathering, vista, etc.), usually two screenplays happen: With my soulbeast it's often a long and painful hassle until I clear everything that aggroed on me (and I pray I don't attract any more enemies nearby). When I bring in my reaper, I just mow them down fast and jump up to my mount.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"zistenz.1945" said:

> When I stop for something on the map (gathering, vista, etc.), usually two screenplays happen: With my soulbeast it's often a long and painful hassle until I clear everything that aggroed on me (and I pray I don't attract any more enemies nearby). When I bring in my reaper, I just mow them down fast and jump up to my mount.

>

 

Then you need a much better build for your Soulbeast to avoid that situation.

[zistenz.1945]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Then you need a much better build for your Soulbeast to avoid that situation.

 

Then meta sb condi builds aren't meta anymore? Or maybe it is really a l2p issue... :shrugs:

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"zistenz.1945" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > Then you need a much better build for your Soulbeast to avoid that situation.

>

> Then meta sb condi builds aren't meta anymore? Or maybe it is really a l2p issue... :shrugs:

 

Meta for what? You understand there's a difference between solo play and squad play, right? :D

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Mungo Zen.9364" said:

> --snip --

For me, it's not a condi-cleanse issue. I can defeat a mob but the game considers me to still be "in combat" so I can't mount, SB can't swap pets, other professions can't swap weapons, etc... Players end up having to travel a significant distance from the encounter before they are no longer locked in combat... but then are subjected to the vast aggro range of other mobs or if they remain in-place and wait for the "timer" to let them out of combat, the mob re-spawns.

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Mungo Zen.9364" said:

> > --snip --

> For me, it's not a condi-cleanse issue. I can defeat a mob but the game considers me to still be "in combat" so I can't mount, SB can't swap pets, other professions can't swap weapons, etc... Players end up having to travel a significant distance from the encounter before they are no longer locked in combat... but then are subjected to the vast aggro range of other mobs or if they remain in-place and wait for the "timer" to let them out of combat, the mob re-spawns.

 

Seems like that's a complaint about a bug keeping you in combat for no apparent reason (and THAT would be understandable for me), not the aggro range?

[zistenz.1945]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> Meta for what? You understand there's a difference between solo play and squad play, right? :D

 

I'm not _that_ casual, thanks.

[ilMasa.2546]

I dont know...Gw2 pve isnt that hard.

Actually it is kinda funny seeing people complaining about conditions in PvE and actually being "bullied" by AI in this game.!?

Ok i can understand there is a difference between core mobbs and expansion mobbs...still not to the point to ask for a nerf lol

 

 

 

 

[zistenz.1945]

> @"ilMasa.2546" said:

> Ok i can understand there is a difference between core mobbs and expansion mobbs...still not to the point to ask for a nerf lol

 

I didn't asked for any nerf, I'm confident in that I could manage better in PoF and my gameplay experience would be better if their aggro range would be the same as in the other zones. That's all.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"zistenz.1945" said:

> > @"ilMasa.2546" said:

> > Ok i can understand there is a difference between core mobbs and expansion mobbs...still not to the point to ask for a nerf lol

>

> I didn't asked for any nerf, I'm confident in that I could manage better in PoF and my gameplay experience would be better if their aggro range would be the same as in the other zones. That's all.

 

Right. Some people keep thinking that this is about difficulty and it's not.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"zistenz.1945" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > Meta for what? You understand there's a difference between solo play and squad play, right? :D

>

> I'm not _that_ casual, thanks.

 

Ok, but then what condi sb meta build were you talking about?

[Sobx.1758]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"zistenz.1945" said:

> > > @"ilMasa.2546" said:

> > > Ok i can understand there is a difference between core mobbs and expansion mobbs...still not to the point to ask for a nerf lol

> >

> > I didn't asked for any nerf, I'm confident in that I could manage better in PoF and my gameplay experience would be better if their aggro range would be the same as in the other zones. That's all.

>

> Right. Some people keep thinking that this is about difficulty and it's not.

 

It's not?

OP:

 

> @"Pockethole.5031" said:

> **TL:DR; Please, make EoD map mobs easier than in PoF. And not as numerous. Thank you.**

 

So... not sure about that.