Retaliation should punish AoE abuse stronger

[Grimjack.8130]

cant wait to actually take more damage from retal than i actually do on any sword ele build

[Noodle Ant.1605]

I don’t think retaliation is intended to ‘punish’ or ‘deter’; it’s a boon that gives an offensive edge when you cannot (or are too lazy to) avoid dmg, like area-denying AoEs which may or may not be mindless. Its effectiveness against multi-hit scenarios is seemingly an unintended side-effect of its current implementation.

 

It is a boon which its sole purpose is to allow you to do *something* instead of *nothing*, which makes it passive by design. Therefore it makes sense that no one pays attention to it because you can just simply pop it and then walk into a pre-existing AoE. Unlike aegis or stability, it wouldn’t have really mattered if the opponent could see it on your bar beforehand or not as they would get ‘punished’(?) all the same.

 

Whether or not such a design deserves a buff without an extensive rework (comparing retal in wvw) is questionable.

[snoow.1694]

> @"Shaogin.2679" said:

> > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > @"Shaogin.2679" said:

> > > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

> > > >

> > > > How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 15-20 times during it‘s duration?

> > > >

> > > > Or

> > > >

> > > > Giving Retaliation something like Life Siphon every 5th trigger?

> > > >

> > > > Or

> > > >

> > > > 25% incrased damage after a certain amount of triggers?

> > >

> > > I can't possibly imagine the thought process that brought you to this conclusion. I mean, there is no way you applied any logic to this when you were thinking this up. Who in the world sees something broken and thinks they can make it better by breaking something else? The AoE spam in this game is horrible, but this is no solution. With the direction this game is heading, I doubt there will ever be a solution. Just enjoy what we have left until it crashes and burns.

> >

> > The fact that the Skills Team of ArenaNet announced they want to rework Retaliation and make it "feel more rewarding", so it is not as delusional as you make it up to be. Also you basically offered no argument of what exactly would be broken and why as well as offering no solution to the AoE spam topic. Retaliation simply isn't broken - this is why people don't respect it at all as a boon when casting their AoE's - hardly anyone checks

>

> Just because they want to rework something doesn't mean they want to completely break it. Also, no explanation is needed for why it would be broken. If I say I want an auto attack to one-shot players, I don't expect them to explain to me why that is a horrible idea. You are basically asking for retaliation to be so strong that players can no longer safely use an AoE skill. This is completely ridiculous considering how passive retaliation is to start with. Also, retaliation already works great for it's intended purpose. It punishes rapid hitting attacks. That's why you never see Engineers running around in large zerg fights in WvW with nades or the flamethrower. As for the AoE spam, that is a completely separate topic that would technically be derailing this thread. Your topic was about reworking retaliation in the most ridiculous way possible, so my response was of course directed at that.

 

You have either not a single idea of what you talking about or simply don‘t have an explaination of what exatly would be broken

 

Stun every 20th hit on reta that lasts 5-8 seconds on most classes? That would be 100 hits you would need to take in 5-8 seconds uptime to stun 5 opponents, at that point you would be dead before doing so.

 

Or

 

Life siphon on every 5th hit? Would make it more rewarding and wouldn‘t change the damage output.

 

Or

 

25% more damage after a certain amount of hits, constant neglegence and disrespect of the boon? I feel like damage you can prevent by opening your eyes and looking at what boon your opponent has is not broken - it is a lack of skill, which should be punished more severely. Taking the same damage for retaliation until a certain point because you simply didn’t give a kitten isn’t broken the same way pain & confusion as conditions aren‘t broken, since you can react by not moving/not attacking.

 

Fact is a Renegade would think twice before casting their huge AoE‘s on a group that has retaliation (as it should be) because as it is right now they get hardly punished by the boon or they would stop showcasing this degenerate playstyle in the first place.

As to people who already say retaliation is broken - I assume it is the same people who don‘t watch for reta before casting multi-hit moves and live of this AoE meta

 

A rework of reta, which makes it more rewarding (=buff), is coming, because using it right now simply isn‘t. And I know for a fact that what Anet is planning will be more severe than my suggestions, which sound „broken“ to multihit spammers that already feel pressured by reta right now, because they can‘t open their eyes, but they really aren‘t

[Tharan.9085]

I think someone hasnt played symbol monkey in it's prime

[Exile.8160]

> @"Tharan.9085" said:

> I think someone hasnt played symbol monkey in it's prime

 

Too bad it didnt last long before it was butcher with zero compensation.

[Psykewne.3025]

Go fight https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Aberrant_Murellow and tell me you want stronger retaliation. This guy is an absolute nightmare to fight as he has a super powered retaliation that you essentially have to boonstrip to comfortably kill. I think if you make retal stronger you suddenly make boonstrip even more important than it already is which pushes classes without significant boonstrip further out of the meta. If you weaken retal then you might as well not have it though, right now it does enough to be noticed but not enough to be oppressive.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

> @"snoow.1694" said:

> > @"Shaogin.2679" said:

> > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > @"Shaogin.2679" said:

> > > > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > > Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

> > > > >

> > > > > How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 15-20 times during it‘s duration?

> > > > >

> > > > > Or

> > > > >

> > > > > Giving Retaliation something like Life Siphon every 5th trigger?

> > > > >

> > > > > Or

> > > > >

> > > > > 25% incrased damage after a certain amount of triggers?

> > > >

> > > > I can't possibly imagine the thought process that brought you to this conclusion. I mean, there is no way you applied any logic to this when you were thinking this up. Who in the world sees something broken and thinks they can make it better by breaking something else? The AoE spam in this game is horrible, but this is no solution. With the direction this game is heading, I doubt there will ever be a solution. Just enjoy what we have left until it crashes and burns.

> > >

> > > The fact that the Skills Team of ArenaNet announced they want to rework Retaliation and make it "feel more rewarding", so it is not as delusional as you make it up to be. Also you basically offered no argument of what exactly would be broken and why as well as offering no solution to the AoE spam topic. Retaliation simply isn't broken - this is why people don't respect it at all as a boon when casting their AoE's - hardly anyone checks

> >

> > Just because they want to rework something doesn't mean they want to completely break it. Also, no explanation is needed for why it would be broken. If I say I want an auto attack to one-shot players, I don't expect them to explain to me why that is a horrible idea. You are basically asking for retaliation to be so strong that players can no longer safely use an AoE skill. This is completely ridiculous considering how passive retaliation is to start with. Also, retaliation already works great for it's intended purpose. It punishes rapid hitting attacks. That's why you never see Engineers running around in large zerg fights in WvW with nades or the flamethrower. As for the AoE spam, that is a completely separate topic that would technically be derailing this thread. Your topic was about reworking retaliation in the most ridiculous way possible, so my response was of course directed at that.

>

> You have either not a single idea of what you talking about or simply don‘t have an explaination of what exatly would be broken

>

> Stun every 20th hit on reta that lasts 5-8 seconds on most classes? That would be 100 hits you would need to take in 5-8 seconds uptime to stun 5 opponents, at that point you would be dead before doing so.

>

> Or

>

> Life siphon on every 5th hit? Would make it more rewarding and wouldn‘t change the damage output.

>

> Or

>

> 25% more damage after a certain amount of hits, constant neglegence and disrespect of the boon? I feel like damage you can prevent by opening your eyes and looking at what boon your opponent has is not broken - it is a lack of skill, which should be punished more severely. Taking the same damage for retaliation until a certain point because you simply didn’t give a kitten isn’t broken the same way pain & confusion as conditions aren‘t broken, since you can react by not moving/not attacking.

>

> Fact is a Renegade would think twice before casting their huge AoE‘s on a group that has retaliation (as it should be) because as it is right now they get hardly punished by the boon or they would stop showcasing this degenerate playstyle in the first place.

> As to people who already say retaliation is broken - I assume it is the same people who don‘t watch for reta before casting multi-hit moves and live of this AoE meta

>

> A rework of reta, which makes it more rewarding (=buff), is coming, because using it right now simply isn‘t. And I know for a fact that what Anet is planning will be more severe than my suggestions, which sound „broken“ to multihit spammers that already feel pressured by reta right now, because they can‘t open their eyes, but they really aren‘t

 

How is it a lack of skill to notice a boon and not attack when it's pooped out by guardian at ridiculous rates? That leaves you with no opportunity to attack.

 

You know who else can spec into ridiculous retaliation uptime? Revenant. Have fun dealing with a new version of Renegades with perma retaliation that kills you for attacking them with their stupid powerful retaliation as well

as their 'AoE spam' while they bunker through your attempts to kill them.

 

Retaliation needs to go. Get rid of it or nerf it into irrelevance.

[Leonidrex.5649]

back before retal nerf I used to take 2k retal damage for using blurred frenzy, god forbid 2 people were next to me, thats 4k dmg.

1/4 hp gone for using defensive skill, you want me to get stunned too?

bbut just dont attack retal! 100% uptime

jjjust strip the boon! constantly reapplies every 2-3s

jjust dont attack lol 4head

[Shaogin.2679]

> @"snoow.1694" said:

> > @"Shaogin.2679" said:

> > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > @"Shaogin.2679" said:

> > > > > @"snoow.1694" said:

> > > > > Retaliation is supposed to enable people to punish AoE spammers, but it seems like it does a bad job seeing the complaints about the heavy AoE meta pretty much since HoT was released.

> > > > >

> > > > > How about increasing the damage and giving retaliation a stun when it ends which hits every opponent that triggered it 15-20 times during it‘s duration?

> > > > >

> > > > > Or

> > > > >

> > > > > Giving Retaliation something like Life Siphon every 5th trigger?

> > > > >

> > > > > Or

> > > > >

> > > > > 25% incrased damage after a certain amount of triggers?

> > > >

> > > > I can't possibly imagine the thought process that brought you to this conclusion. I mean, there is no way you applied any logic to this when you were thinking this up. Who in the world sees something broken and thinks they can make it better by breaking something else? The AoE spam in this game is horrible, but this is no solution. With the direction this game is heading, I doubt there will ever be a solution. Just enjoy what we have left until it crashes and burns.

> > >

> > > The fact that the Skills Team of ArenaNet announced they want to rework Retaliation and make it "feel more rewarding", so it is not as delusional as you make it up to be. Also you basically offered no argument of what exactly would be broken and why as well as offering no solution to the AoE spam topic. Retaliation simply isn't broken - this is why people don't respect it at all as a boon when casting their AoE's - hardly anyone checks

> >

> > Just because they want to rework something doesn't mean they want to completely break it. Also, no explanation is needed for why it would be broken. If I say I want an auto attack to one-shot players, I don't expect them to explain to me why that is a horrible idea. You are basically asking for retaliation to be so strong that players can no longer safely use an AoE skill. This is completely ridiculous considering how passive retaliation is to start with. Also, retaliation already works great for it's intended purpose. It punishes rapid hitting attacks. That's why you never see Engineers running around in large zerg fights in WvW with nades or the flamethrower. As for the AoE spam, that is a completely separate topic that would technically be derailing this thread. Your topic was about reworking retaliation in the most ridiculous way possible, so my response was of course directed at that.

>

> You have either not a single idea of what you talking about or simply don‘t have an explaination of what exatly would be broken

>

> Stun every 20th hit on reta that lasts 5-8 seconds on most classes? That would be 100 hits you would need to take in 5-8 seconds uptime to stun 5 opponents, at that point you would be dead before doing so.

>

> Or

>

> Life siphon on every 5th hit? Would make it more rewarding and wouldn‘t change the damage output.

>

> Or

>

> 25% more damage after a certain amount of hits, constant neglegence and disrespect of the boon? I feel like damage you can prevent by opening your eyes and looking at what boon your opponent has is not broken - it is a lack of skill, which should be punished more severely. Taking the same damage for retaliation until a certain point because you simply didn’t give a kitten isn’t broken the same way pain & confusion as conditions aren‘t broken, since you can react by not moving/not attacking.

>

> Fact is a Renegade would think twice before casting their huge AoE‘s on a group that has retaliation (as it should be) because as it is right now they get hardly punished by the boon or they would stop showcasing this degenerate playstyle in the first place.

> As to people who already say retaliation is broken - I assume it is the same people who don‘t watch for reta before casting multi-hit moves and live of this AoE meta

>

> A rework of reta, which makes it more rewarding (=buff), is coming, because using it right now simply isn‘t. And I know for a fact that what Anet is planning will be more severe than my suggestions, which sound „broken“ to multihit spammers that already feel pressured by reta right now, because they can‘t open their eyes, but they really aren‘t

 

I actually answered all of your questions, you just ignore that and continue to push your agenda. Retaliation already works great in role it was designed for. Retaliation is already extremely passive and does not require buffs. Retaliation is not and never will be the answer to AoE spam. Also, you and everyone in this game knows that you can pop retaliation and then purposefully put yourself in harm's way to proc retaliation damage, so let's not pretend like this would encourage "smart" placement/use of AoE attacks. But you're not here to listen to any of that. You don't want to hear out anyone with a difference of opinion. The only reason you're here is to either troll or pray that there are others that understand nothing of balance that will agree with you. So say what you want, but I've laid out the facts and any more time spent here would be a waste. Do with it what you will.