You Can't Keep Upping Initiative Costs While Simultaneously Lowering Regen Options

[omgdracula.6345]

So like most of you I was shocked to see IA nerfed after all these years for really no reason. Especially with 0 compensation in the way of damage increases, or defensive capabilities. The other issue is now that Trickery is absolutely needed as a trait line. It also offers a lot of initiative regen. Most of which have been nerfed. Examples.

 

Kleptomaniac nerfed in 2013 from 3 to 2

Quick Pockets nerfed in 2019 3 to 2

 

You guys can't just keep upping initiative costs on skills without adjusting how initiative is regenerated or giving thieves more initiative baseline. What did IA do that was so OP? It sure was not the blind, because no thief used it anywhere near enemies where the blind would make sense.

 

Maybe swap the blind for swiftness? Make it worth the 8 initiative. Seeing as IA is used outside combat lead attacks does not even benefit from the initiative use.

 

I wish I had some good suggestions, but having no explanation to really answer why you guys did this has me at a loss.

 

I can see this being annoying in WvW but it is just a teleport lol.

 

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" Is it possible to get some explanation on why IA was nerfed?

 

[saerni.2584]

I'd also like to see some discussion of how limited initiative regeneration bonuses actually are.

 

One thing I'd note is that cool downs on Steal/Swipe/Mark are lower than in the past. This has made initiative regen higher with Trickery than it was in the past. We also have M7, situationally, actually acting as a major initiative regeneration booster.

 

However, that still leaves us with the problem of our initiative pool being a finite resource before regeneration. We only get a set number of attacks before we lose our ability to use our weapon skills until we regenerate our initiative.

 

If you think about it this way: we expect our initiative to allow us consecutive uses of any skill on our weapon bar (assuming we started from full initiative). So, logically, any ability that is so expensive that it can't be double or triple cast should be the ones with an initiative returning mechanic. The conditions for that return can be set to avoid spamming.

 

At least, that's how I would handle things if skills costing 8 initiative becomes a new normal. I'd prefer that not to be the case because of how the initiative pool is essentially a single global cool down. But I could accept it more readily with initiative return built into those expensive skills.

[vardeleanu.8972]

Still bothering trying to play thief in competitive game modes ? Just make a guardian/revenant and smash your head on the keyboard. At this point it's beyond clear that not all classes are created equal

[kash.9213]

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> So like most of you I was shocked to see IA nerfed after all these years for really no reason. Especially with 0 compensation in the way of damage increases, or defensive capabilities. The other issue is now that Trickery is absolutely needed as a trait line. It also offers a lot of initiative regen. Most of which have been nerfed. Examples.

>

> Kleptomaniac nerfed in 2013 from 3 to 2

> Quick Pockets nerfed in 2019 3 to 2

>

> You guys can't just keep upping initiative costs on skills without adjusting how initiative is regenerated or giving thieves more initiative baseline. What did IA do that was so OP? It sure was not the blind, because no thief used it anywhere near enemies where the blind would make sense.

>

> Maybe swap the blind for swiftness? Make it worth the 8 initiative. **Seeing as IA is used outside combat lead attacks does not even benefit from the initiative use. **

>

> I wish I had some good suggestions, but having no explanation to really answer why you guys did this has me at a loss.

>

> I can see this being annoying in WvW but it is just a teleport lol.

>

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" Is it possible to get some explanation on why IA was nerfed?

>

 

It really feels like the dev who made this change just read the WvW forum and didn't even look at any traits or anything else. Inf Arrow was also one of the only reasons to even look at Shadow Savior which wasn't good but wasn't terrible coupled with the blind. I could even take some kind of reduced range instead, maybe/probably not, but I don't want to see any more creative synergy get wrecked.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I'd also like to see some discussion of how limited initiative regeneration bonuses actually are.

>

> One thing I'd note is that cool downs on Steal/Swipe/Mark are lower than in the past. This has made initiative regen higher with Trickery than it was in the past. We also have M7, situationally, actually acting as a major initiative regeneration booster.

>

> However, that still leaves us with the problem of our initiative pool being a finite resource before regeneration. We only get a set number of attacks before we lose our ability to use our weapon skills until we regenerate our initiative.

>

> If you think about it this way: we expect our initiative to allow us consecutive uses of any skill on our weapon bar (assuming we started from full initiative). So, logically, any ability that is so expensive that it can't be double or triple cast should be the ones with an initiative returning mechanic. The conditions for that return can be set to avoid spamming.

>

> At least, that's how I would handle things if skills costing 8 initiative becomes a new normal. I'd prefer that not to be the case because of how the initiative pool is essentially a single global cool down. But I could accept it more readily with initiative return built into those expensive skills.

 

See I like that idea. I mean I get IA made us mobile. But it did nothing else. It didn't deal damage, it didn't give us a buff, it doesnt benefit from lead attacks. All it had was a useless blind. It has to do something to be worth wasting 8 initiative on. 8 is half of our initiative(that is with trickery) That is ridiculous due to the fact as you said we have very little left to attack with.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > So like most of you I was shocked to see IA nerfed after all these years for really no reason. Especially with 0 compensation in the way of damage increases, or defensive capabilities. The other issue is now that Trickery is absolutely needed as a trait line. It also offers a lot of initiative regen. Most of which have been nerfed. Examples.

> >

> > Kleptomaniac nerfed in 2013 from 3 to 2

> > Quick Pockets nerfed in 2019 3 to 2

> >

> > You guys can't just keep upping initiative costs on skills without adjusting how initiative is regenerated or giving thieves more initiative baseline. What did IA do that was so OP? It sure was not the blind, because no thief used it anywhere near enemies where the blind would make sense.

> >

> > Maybe swap the blind for swiftness? Make it worth the 8 initiative. **Seeing as IA is used outside combat lead attacks does not even benefit from the initiative use. **

> >

> > I wish I had some good suggestions, but having no explanation to really answer why you guys did this has me at a loss.

> >

> > I can see this being annoying in WvW but it is just a teleport lol.

> >

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" Is it possible to get some explanation on why IA was nerfed?

> >

>

> It really feels like the dev who made this change just read the WvW forum and didn't even look at any traits or anything else. Inf Arrow was also one of the only reasons to even look at Shadow Savior which wasn't good but wasn't terrible coupled with the blind. I could even take some kind of reduced range instead, maybe/probably not, but I don't want to see any more creative synergy get wrecked.

 

Agreed 100%. Now thieves will use stealth more which means chances are that will be tuned as well.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Well easy way to look at it is without trickery a thief will have 4 ini left after one sb5, 4 ini after one skill lol and ini being a global resource far all the thief's weapon skills 8 ini is absolutely rediculous unless anet added some form or even multiple forms of rapid ini regen if certain criteria are met. This dev team keeps raising their bar on how bad their changes can actually get

[Cynz.9437]

@Op they don't care and they never will. If you want balanced pvp i suggest to play different game and stop financially support Anet.