Solori.6025 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @Kyon.9735 said: > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > > > > > > @EvilSardine.9635 said: > > > > > Why is there not much talk about this? Instant kill abilities with no counter-play should not exist in a game. There should be skillful counter-play to everything. > > > > > > > > > > Right now, a mesmer can instant down you from stealth and there's absolutely nothing that can be done about it. You don't see it coming as there is no animation or sound warning. We ran a test and my buddy can hit my warrior with 1400 toughness for 24k damage instantly with no animation from stealth. Auto endure pain doesn't even kick in on time. Any other class with less health dies instantly. Where's the fun in this? Honestly, it's only fun for the mesmer and is that good for the game? I gave it a shot on my mesmer and I can teleport onto 3 people and instantly down them all from stealth. > > > > > > > > > > Most huge damage abilities in the game have obvious telegraphs. You can dodge deadeye's big damage because you see and hear an obvious projectile. You can see a killshot from a warrior coming because it's obvious. There's counter play to all of these. > > > > > > > > > > Is this getting nerfed or what? I don't mind being outplayed in duels and small fights but being instantly downed out of nowhere feels like you're cheated. > > > > > > > > Does that mean you also don't like the ele build and want it nerfed too ? Cause I havent seen you post about it either? > > > > > > > > > > > You don't defend a broken build by setting another broken build as an example. And you can't even roam with that kind of weaver build for God's sake nor does it have any defensive capabilities that Mesmer has. > > > > > > And yes I don't think one shot builds deserve any place in PvP or WvW, even a one trick pony full zerk no defense Weaver gimmick one shot build that only works in zerg blobs > > > needs to go. > > > > I'm just wondering why I don't see more post from you asking for other broken things to be put in line, yet you targeted mesmer. I wonder why? > > > > You're also wrong, > > People roam with builds capable of doing this type of damage on an ele all the time > > ( and it makes me wonder if you roam or not because I see people running this often in WvW) > > > > for example, even in spvp > > > > > > FA ele is able to burst people down, in an environment of controlled variables. > > > > Yet no one, including you, talks about it. Why? > > (also imagine the insane damage it does in WvW with the extra buffs) > > > > thieves can still backstab you coming out of stealth for 15k > > > > Where is your thread about it? > > > > I'm honestly curious, why all of a sudden, after this combo has been in game for a little over a year, all of a sudden. > > People start pointing fingers at it? > > > > What class do you play that has led you to be this vindictive? > > I honestly hope it isn't warrior > > What are you saying? I just said **all** similar builds need to go which literally includes all classes in case you don't understand. > > Also, you posted a **SWORD/DAGGER WvW** video in which I said it's not even viable for roaming. Now you use a SCEPTER/FOCUS **structured PvP video** as an example wherein only Warrior uses an amulet with Toughness in its meta build. Heck, core FA Ele is even more used and viable than FA Weaver in sPvP. > > Are you that scared for one shot builds to be removed that you can't even understand the context of what I said? **One shot builds need to go regardless of class**. So...where's your thread about it though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 Limit crit to 100 % anything from stats gain, above that needs to be provided by boons and food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyon.9735 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @Solori.6025 said: > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > > > > > > > > @EvilSardine.9635 said: > > > > > > Why is there not much talk about this? Instant kill abilities with no counter-play should not exist in a game. There should be skillful counter-play to everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, a mesmer can instant down you from stealth and there's absolutely nothing that can be done about it. You don't see it coming as there is no animation or sound warning. We ran a test and my buddy can hit my warrior with 1400 toughness for 24k damage instantly with no animation from stealth. Auto endure pain doesn't even kick in on time. Any other class with less health dies instantly. Where's the fun in this? Honestly, it's only fun for the mesmer and is that good for the game? I gave it a shot on my mesmer and I can teleport onto 3 people and instantly down them all from stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most huge damage abilities in the game have obvious telegraphs. You can dodge deadeye's big damage because you see and hear an obvious projectile. You can see a killshot from a warrior coming because it's obvious. There's counter play to all of these. > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this getting nerfed or what? I don't mind being outplayed in duels and small fights but being instantly downed out of nowhere feels like you're cheated. > > > > > > > > > > Does that mean you also don't like the ele build and want it nerfed too ? Cause I havent seen you post about it either? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't defend a broken build by setting another broken build as an example. And you can't even roam with that kind of weaver build for God's sake nor does it have any defensive capabilities that Mesmer has. > > > > > > > > And yes I don't think one shot builds deserve any place in PvP or WvW, even a one trick pony full zerk no defense Weaver gimmick one shot build that only works in zerg blobs > > > > needs to go. > > > > > > I'm just wondering why I don't see more post from you asking for other broken things to be put in line, yet you targeted mesmer. I wonder why? > > > > > > You're also wrong, > > > People roam with builds capable of doing this type of damage on an ele all the time > > > ( and it makes me wonder if you roam or not because I see people running this often in WvW) > > > > > > for example, even in spvp > > > > > > > > > FA ele is able to burst people down, in an environment of controlled variables. > > > > > > Yet no one, including you, talks about it. Why? > > > (also imagine the insane damage it does in WvW with the extra buffs) > > > > > > thieves can still backstab you coming out of stealth for 15k > > > > > > Where is your thread about it? > > > > > > I'm honestly curious, why all of a sudden, after this combo has been in game for a little over a year, all of a sudden. > > > People start pointing fingers at it? > > > > > > What class do you play that has led you to be this vindictive? > > > I honestly hope it isn't warrior > > > > What are you saying? I just said **all** similar builds need to go which literally includes all classes in case you don't understand. > > > > Also, you posted a **SWORD/DAGGER WvW** video in which I said it's not even viable for roaming. Now you use a SCEPTER/FOCUS **structured PvP video** as an example wherein only Warrior uses an amulet with Toughness in its meta build. Heck, core FA Ele is even more used and viable than FA Weaver in sPvP. > > > > Are you that scared for one shot builds to be removed that you can't even understand the context of what I said? **One shot builds need to go regardless of class**. > > So...where's your thread about it though? My opinion is already posted here. Do I need to create multiple threads for every single one shot build and whine there about the same thing? Let me ask you instead. Why do you think this Mesmer build and other one shot/multi-hit spike builds (that can one shot in a sense) currently out there shouldn't be touched when its predecessors got nerfed? Heartseeker Spam Thief Static Discharge Engineer Hundred Nades Engineer Fresh Air Ele (Pre-specialization patch) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarty.8019 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @EvilSardine.9635 said: > Why is there not much talk about this? Instant kill abilities with no counter-play should not exist in a game. There should be skillful counter-play to everything. > Lol, since when? Which game are you playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 > @Kyon.9735 said: > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @EvilSardine.9635 said: > > > > > > > Why is there not much talk about this? Instant kill abilities with no counter-play should not exist in a game. There should be skillful counter-play to everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, a mesmer can instant down you from stealth and there's absolutely nothing that can be done about it. You don't see it coming as there is no animation or sound warning. We ran a test and my buddy can hit my warrior with 1400 toughness for 24k damage instantly with no animation from stealth. Auto endure pain doesn't even kick in on time. Any other class with less health dies instantly. Where's the fun in this? Honestly, it's only fun for the mesmer and is that good for the game? I gave it a shot on my mesmer and I can teleport onto 3 people and instantly down them all from stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most huge damage abilities in the game have obvious telegraphs. You can dodge deadeye's big damage because you see and hear an obvious projectile. You can see a killshot from a warrior coming because it's obvious. There's counter play to all of these. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this getting nerfed or what? I don't mind being outplayed in duels and small fights but being instantly downed out of nowhere feels like you're cheated. > > > > > > > > > > > > Does that mean you also don't like the ele build and want it nerfed too ? Cause I havent seen you post about it either? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't defend a broken build by setting another broken build as an example. And you can't even roam with that kind of weaver build for God's sake nor does it have any defensive capabilities that Mesmer has. > > > > > > > > > > And yes I don't think one shot builds deserve any place in PvP or WvW, even a one trick pony full zerk no defense Weaver gimmick one shot build that only works in zerg blobs > > > > > needs to go. > > > > > > > > I'm just wondering why I don't see more post from you asking for other broken things to be put in line, yet you targeted mesmer. I wonder why? > > > > > > > > You're also wrong, > > > > People roam with builds capable of doing this type of damage on an ele all the time > > > > ( and it makes me wonder if you roam or not because I see people running this often in WvW) > > > > > > > > for example, even in spvp > > > > > > > > > > > > FA ele is able to burst people down, in an environment of controlled variables. > > > > > > > > Yet no one, including you, talks about it. Why? > > > > (also imagine the insane damage it does in WvW with the extra buffs) > > > > > > > > thieves can still backstab you coming out of stealth for 15k > > > > > > > > Where is your thread about it? > > > > > > > > I'm honestly curious, why all of a sudden, after this combo has been in game for a little over a year, all of a sudden. > > > > People start pointing fingers at it? > > > > > > > > What class do you play that has led you to be this vindictive? > > > > I honestly hope it isn't warrior > > > > > > What are you saying? I just said **all** similar builds need to go which literally includes all classes in case you don't understand. > > > > > > Also, you posted a **SWORD/DAGGER WvW** video in which I said it's not even viable for roaming. Now you use a SCEPTER/FOCUS **structured PvP video** as an example wherein only Warrior uses an amulet with Toughness in its meta build. Heck, core FA Ele is even more used and viable than FA Weaver in sPvP. > > > > > > Are you that scared for one shot builds to be removed that you can't even understand the context of what I said? **One shot builds need to go regardless of class**. > > > > So...where's your thread about it though? > > My opinion is already posted here. Do I need to create multiple threads for every single one shot build and whine there about the same thing? > > Let me ask you instead. Why do you think this Mesmer build and other one shot/multi-hit spike builds (that can one shot in a sense) currently out there shouldn't be touched when its predecessors got nerfed? > > Heartseeker Spam Thief > Static Discharge Engineer > Hundred Nades Engineer > Fresh Air Ele (Pre-specialization patch) I havent said one way or the other that I do or do not think they should be nerfed or not. But my question on where is your thread is for two reasons 1. Usually when people want something to be nerfed they crusade for that one build with little to no accurate information while simultaniously forgetting other builds on different classes that can also achieve the same damage. 2. When people want a class to be nerfed they do exactly what you did, post first that " hey class x is too strong and it needs to be nerfed" and " I dont like any class that does X damage" and when the class they want to be nerfed is finally nerfed.. Those same people disappear. You say you're against all one shot builds, I simply ask you to prove it, because what people see is a thread about mesmers, and not everyone ( our Anet community devs included) will read post by post, it also serves to determine what type of person you are when you make claims like > " And yes I don't think one shot builds deserve any place in PvP or WvW, " Are you legit? or are you just another crusader who has trouble so you want things nerfed for you? As for my opinion personally at this point, I don't care either way, I already know of this communities hate for all things mesmer, and a lot of people are not happy until dealing with mesmer is an after thought. Bunker meta- Burst meta- Condi meta-( what we have now) Boon meta- They all alternate at some point or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Velran.1052 said: > You people cant deal with 3 seconds of stealth and a glowing sword flying at you What if I told you you're doing it wrong Morpheus.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takatsu.9416 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 LOL why do one shot builds need to go? It doesn't make sense. Who's going to deal with insane sustain roamers then? If one shot builds which is power or condi spam burst builds don't exist, no one can pressure and put down a heavy sustain 1vX roamer that exists even outnumbered and I encounter them all the time. That kind of damage is necessary to balance the other extremity. If you don't want to face one shot builds, either build for sustain, because there is basically no way for any of us to one shot a tanky warrior or necro or guardian etc. or you can stick to zergs. Also you get one shot in zergs anyway due to siege and overlapping aoe sometimes. So what's the problem with learning to deal with one shot damage either as a group or solo roaming if you want to roam? And seriously it's not that hard to deal with one shot classes. As a full glass player of various classes I've been one shot like... twice when I wasn't fully aware of my surroundings. Wvw is not for the faint hearted. You run into unpredictable situations all the time. Damage dealers, sustain builds, outnumbered situations, zergs that just suddenly run you over, whatever. It happens That's why it's fun. Especially because you can actually adapt and react to these things most of the time with a little skill and awareness Side note, I've roamed with Weaver ele on sword dagger and I have tons of evades plus arcane shield, stability, stunbreaks, twist of fate, etc. I play it as I do mesmer, with a lot of active survival skills > @Kyon.9735 said: > > Are you that scared for one shot builds to be removed that you can't even understand the context of what I said? **One shot builds need to go regardless of class**. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyon.9735 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Solori.6025 said: > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > > > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @EvilSardine.9635 said: > > > > > > > > Why is there not much talk about this? Instant kill abilities with no counter-play should not exist in a game. There should be skillful counter-play to everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, a mesmer can instant down you from stealth and there's absolutely nothing that can be done about it. You don't see it coming as there is no animation or sound warning. We ran a test and my buddy can hit my warrior with 1400 toughness for 24k damage instantly with no animation from stealth. Auto endure pain doesn't even kick in on time. Any other class with less health dies instantly. Where's the fun in this? Honestly, it's only fun for the mesmer and is that good for the game? I gave it a shot on my mesmer and I can teleport onto 3 people and instantly down them all from stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most huge damage abilities in the game have obvious telegraphs. You can dodge deadeye's big damage because you see and hear an obvious projectile. You can see a killshot from a warrior coming because it's obvious. There's counter play to all of these. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this getting nerfed or what? I don't mind being outplayed in duels and small fights but being instantly downed out of nowhere feels like you're cheated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does that mean you also don't like the ele build and want it nerfed too ? Cause I havent seen you post about it either? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't defend a broken build by setting another broken build as an example. And you can't even roam with that kind of weaver build for God's sake nor does it have any defensive capabilities that Mesmer has. > > > > > > > > > > > > And yes I don't think one shot builds deserve any place in PvP or WvW, even a one trick pony full zerk no defense Weaver gimmick one shot build that only works in zerg blobs > > > > > > needs to go. > > > > > > > > > > I'm just wondering why I don't see more post from you asking for other broken things to be put in line, yet you targeted mesmer. I wonder why? > > > > > > > > > > You're also wrong, > > > > > People roam with builds capable of doing this type of damage on an ele all the time > > > > > ( and it makes me wonder if you roam or not because I see people running this often in WvW) > > > > > > > > > > for example, even in spvp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FA ele is able to burst people down, in an environment of controlled variables. > > > > > > > > > > Yet no one, including you, talks about it. Why? > > > > > (also imagine the insane damage it does in WvW with the extra buffs) > > > > > > > > > > thieves can still backstab you coming out of stealth for 15k > > > > > > > > > > Where is your thread about it? > > > > > > > > > > I'm honestly curious, why all of a sudden, after this combo has been in game for a little over a year, all of a sudden. > > > > > People start pointing fingers at it? > > > > > > > > > > What class do you play that has led you to be this vindictive? > > > > > I honestly hope it isn't warrior > > > > > > > > What are you saying? I just said **all** similar builds need to go which literally includes all classes in case you don't understand. > > > > > > > > Also, you posted a **SWORD/DAGGER WvW** video in which I said it's not even viable for roaming. Now you use a SCEPTER/FOCUS **structured PvP video** as an example wherein only Warrior uses an amulet with Toughness in its meta build. Heck, core FA Ele is even more used and viable than FA Weaver in sPvP. > > > > > > > > Are you that scared for one shot builds to be removed that you can't even understand the context of what I said? **One shot builds need to go regardless of class**. > > > > > > So...where's your thread about it though? > > > > My opinion is already posted here. Do I need to create multiple threads for every single one shot build and whine there about the same thing? > > > > Let me ask you instead. Why do you think this Mesmer build and other one shot/multi-hit spike builds (that can one shot in a sense) currently out there shouldn't be touched when its predecessors got nerfed? > > > > Heartseeker Spam Thief > > Static Discharge Engineer > > Hundred Nades Engineer > > Fresh Air Ele (Pre-specialization patch) > > I havent said one way or the other that I do or do not think they should be nerfed or not. > But my question on where is your thread is for two reasons > > 1. Usually when people want something to be nerfed they crusade for that one build with little to no accurate information while simultaniously forgetting other builds on different classes that can also achieve the same damage. > > > 2. When people want a class to be nerfed they do exactly what you did, post first that " hey class x is too strong and it needs to be nerfed" and " I dont like any class that does X damage" and when the class they want to be nerfed is finally nerfed.. > > Those same people disappear. > > You say you're against all one shot builds, I simply ask you to prove it, because what people see is a thread about mesmers, and not everyone ( our Anet community devs included) will read post by post, it also serves to determine what type of person you are when you make claims like > > > " And yes I don't think one shot builds deserve any place in PvP or WvW, " > > Are you legit? > or are you just another crusader who has trouble so you want things nerfed for you? > > > As for my opinion personally at this point, I don't care either way, I already know of this communities hate for all things mesmer, and a lot of people are not happy until dealing with mesmer is an after thought. > > Bunker meta- > Burst meta- > Condi meta-( what we have now) > Boon meta- > > They all alternate at some point or another. > So you never actually answered the question as to why the current massive spike builds deserve to be retained while its predecessors got the nerf bat. All I understand from what you say is *you don't really care, you're just salty because Mesmer is targeted* even though I've stated that every similar builds should get the same treatment. I have not been deliberately targeting Mesmer alone. It's not like I even agreed to what others have said which are obviously not the reason why this build is overtuned, I only agreed that this specific build needs to be toned down. I even listed previous builds that were essentially the same (press multiple buttons for a massive burst in an extremely short amount of time). If you want something that was obviously the biggest L2P issue regarding one shot builds, it's actually the classic Bull's Charge -> Frenzy -> 100 Blades Warrior where in you only need to dodge Bull's Charge OR use a single stun break and then evade. > @takatsu.9416 said: > LOL why do one shot builds need to go? It doesn't make sense. Who's going to deal with insane sustain roamers then? If one shot builds which is power or condi spam burst builds don't exist, no one can pressure and put down a heavy sustain 1vX roamer that exists even outnumbered and I encounter them all the time. That kind of damage is necessary to balance the other extremity. > > If you don't want to face one shot builds, either build for sustain, because there is basically no way for any of us to one shot a tanky warrior or necro or guardian etc. or you can stick to zergs. > > Also you get one shot in zergs anyway due to siege and overlapping aoe sometimes. So what's the problem with learning to deal with one shot damage either as a group or solo roaming if you want to roam? > > And seriously it's not that hard to deal with one shot classes. As a full glass player of various classes I've been one shot like... twice when I wasn't fully aware of my surroundings. > > Wvw is not for the faint hearted. You run into unpredictable situations all the time. Damage dealers, sustain builds, outnumbered situations, zergs that just suddenly run you over, whatever. It happens > > That's why it's fun. Especially because you can actually adapt and react to these things most of the time with a little skill and awareness > > Side note, I've roamed with Weaver ele on sword dagger and I have tons of evades plus arcane shield, stability, stunbreaks, twist of fate, etc. I play it as I do mesmer, with a lot of active survival skills > > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > > Are you that scared for one shot builds to be removed that you can't even understand the context of what I said? **One shot builds need to go regardless of class**. > > Builds with insane sustain that can still deal decent amount of damage or even have access to burst damage is another set of problem that needs to be addressed. But the previous stance of Anet about massive spike damage that leaves very little time to react has been the same (though they're haven't been fully consistent with it with thieves). >As we push to improve balance in both PvE and PvP, a few mechanics in the game will be receiving updates to promote fun and balanced play. In the past, quickness has granted double the action speed normally available to players. In PvP, this speed gives most players almost no chance to react to incoming abilities and allows for massive spike damage in extremely short periods of time. Source: https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-March-26-2013 Below is from an older State of the Game video regarding 100 'Nades which is highly similar to the current one shot builds. Karl: People would just run up and, say, swap to grenade kit as they're throwing a grenade barrage and... there's 24,000 damage. Source: It's not like I'm saying anything new. I've just been saying that Anet should what they have been doing - remove builds that does a massive amount of damage in an extremely short amount of time with little to no time to avoid. I've also played FA Weaver and it's damage is ridiculous. It actually has 2 bursts rotations centered around Plasma Beam and Earthen Synergy (which has a stun as well to go with the massive damage). It's less talked because one shot mesmer builds are more prevalent right now but I believe it's the same issue as this one, massive damage in a short amount of time, so it needs the same treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Solori.6025 said: > What mirage brought was a sword leap that lets you run away a lot easier, that I wont debate as it's already been proven. Leaping straight into the middle of a zerg just because you had to dodge and had someone targeted is not the ideal solution to the age old issue of "I should really run away from this zerg". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheria.2837 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @EvilSardine.9635 said: > Why is there not much talk about this? Instant kill abilities with no counter-play should not exist in a game. There should be skillful counter-play to everything. > > Right now, a mesmer can instant down you from stealth and there's absolutely nothing that can be done about it. You don't see it coming as there is no animation or sound warning. We ran a test and my buddy can hit my warrior with 1400 toughness for 24k damage instantly with no animation from stealth. Auto endure pain doesn't even kick in on time. Any other class with less health dies instantly. Where's the fun in this? Honestly, it's only fun for the mesmer and is that good for the game? I gave it a shot on my mesmer and I can teleport onto 3 people and instantly down them all from stealth. > > Most huge damage abilities in the game have obvious telegraphs. You can dodge deadeye's big damage because you see and hear an obvious projectile. You can see a killshot from a warrior coming because it's obvious. There's counter play to all of these. > > Is this getting nerfed or what? I don't mind being outplayed in duels and small fights but being instantly downed out of nowhere feels like you're cheated. Nuh, uh, why can any toon do this to another? Not just mesmers. Skills that can't be cleared with four separate condi clears are not OP, they are abusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 Although i do play also a mesmer i think they should remove all 1 shot / insta burst builds across all classes *thieves, mesmers, barrage rangers, fresh air eles & so on, and icrease survivability of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > Although i do play also a mesmer i think they should remove all 1 shot / insta burst builds across all classes *thieves, mesmers, barrage rangers, fresh air eles & so on, and icrease survivability of all. When video is posted of these one shot builds downing full exotic builds with toughness. And put them up using the so called hated trailblazer or dire. Show me them one shotting medium armor or above with those armor types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > Although i do play also a mesmer i think they should remove all 1 shot / insta burst builds across all classes *thieves, mesmers, barrage rangers, fresh air eles & so on, and icrease survivability of all. > > When video is posted of these one shot builds downing full exotic builds with toughness. > > And put them up using the so called hated trailblazer or dire. Show me them one shotting medium armor or above with those armor types. > I run 2300 armour and -10 Inc dmg and still get 6k mind wracks. A fellow guildy runs marurder reaper (27k) health and that got insta bursted. But you're right, I don't have screen shots to prove it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > Although i do play also a mesmer i think they should remove all 1 shot / insta burst builds across all classes *thieves, mesmers, barrage rangers, fresh air eles & so on, and icrease survivability of all. > > When video is posted of these one shot builds downing full exotic builds with toughness. > > And put them up using the so called hated trailblazer or dire. Show me them one shotting medium armor or above with those armor types. > What i mean is these 1 shot builds should be removed & the tanky builds who deal tons of damage also. Both of which promote skillless play. 1shot builds because they rely on not giving reaction time to the oponent. Tanky heavy condy builds because they take away every option from the oponent. (if you decide to build tanky you should not have a lot of dmg & if you build squishy with dmg stats you should have better damage than the tanky guy but NOT instant, and rather more sustained-non bursty dmg) So in conclusion combat should be longer to give all sides more equal opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > Although i do play also a mesmer i think they should remove all 1 shot / insta burst builds across all classes *thieves, mesmers, barrage rangers, fresh air eles & so on, and icrease survivability of all. > > > > When video is posted of these one shot builds downing full exotic builds with toughness. > > > > And put them up using the so called hated trailblazer or dire. Show me them one shotting medium armor or above with those armor types. > > > > What i mean is these 1 shot builds should be removed & the tanky builds who deal tons of damage also. > > Both of which promote skillless play. > 1shot builds because they rely on not giving reaction time to the oponent. > > Tanky heavy condy builds because they take away every option from the oponent. > > (if you decide to build tanky you should not have a lot of dmg & if you build squishy with dmg stats you should have better damage than the tanky guy but NOT instant, and rather more sustained-non bursty dmg) > > So... toughness can't go beyond a certain level? You say removed, and I know you inherently mean the condition damage stat line from Dire and TB, but then is apothecary OK? Is it the toughness number itself? There are starting to be counters to full dire and TB with the removal of boons. The only thing that has made these builds OP now, is that their boons can be stripped and corrupted. Because most of these builds were available pre PoF, they just weren't viable. Now they are. DE being the notable exception. People didnt notice it until all the boon hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > > > Although i do play also a mesmer i think they should remove all 1 shot / insta burst builds across all classes *thieves, mesmers, barrage rangers, fresh air eles & so on, and icrease survivability of all. > > > > > > When video is posted of these one shot builds downing full exotic builds with toughness. > > > > > > And put them up using the so called hated trailblazer or dire. Show me them one shotting medium armor or above with those armor types. > > > > > > > What i mean is these 1 shot builds should be removed & the tanky builds who deal tons of damage also. > > > > Both of which promote skillless play. > > 1shot builds because they rely on not giving reaction time to the oponent. > > > > Tanky heavy condy builds because they take away every option from the oponent. > > > > (if you decide to build tanky you should not have a lot of dmg & if you build squishy with dmg stats you should have better damage than the tanky guy but NOT instant, and rather more sustained-non bursty dmg) > > > > > > So... toughness can't go beyond a certain level? > > You say removed, and I know you inherently mean the condition damage stat line from Dire and TB, but then is apothecary OK? Is it the toughness number itself? > > There are starting to be counters to full dire and TB with the removal of boons. > > The only thing that has made these builds OP now, is that their boons can be stripped and corrupted. > > Because most of these builds were available pre PoF, they just weren't viable. > > Now they are. > > DE being the notable exception. > > People didnt notice it until all the boon hate. > In general there sbould be much better balance between sustain & damage, as they currently are extremely imbalanced. As for dire-trailblazer i dont mean the condi stats to be removed completely but rather lowered significantly. (or if kept primarily as condy dmg sets - to get significantly lowered defensive stats then - either way it should be better imo) What i meant by "removed" were the whole broken play styles of extremely overbuffed aspects. (a combining factor of defensive stats to offensive stats [and skills]). This should have been common sense to the devs when making tha game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 Now that i think about sets stats balance i guess the devs had the *somewhat* right idea of 3 stats sets/items, but they should have been only as: *2 offensive stats & 1 defensive stat* per item / set OR *1 offensive stat & 2 defensive stats per iem/set* I know some ppl will start crying about build diverdity then, but in the end you can have only one better: either *more fair but boring Balance* or *more excitng but extremely broken build divercity* (i personally would choose the balance path) Also HoT with the 4 stat item sets pretty much fucked everything up. Somewhere something went terribly wrong in ANet hq xD & the consequences are that everyone now is much more uset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > Now that i think about sets stats balance i guess the devs had the *somewhat* right idea of 3 stats sets/items, but they should have been only as: > > *2 offensive stats & 1 defensive stat* per item / set > > OR > > *1 offensive stat & 2 defensive stats per iem/set* > > Also HoT with the 4 stat item sets pretty much kitten everything up. > > Somewhere something went terribly wrong in ANet hq xD & the consequences are that everyone now is much more uset. You know dire fit into the second category right... so it would still have been messed up lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulzi.8273 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 I don't consider any kills from these one-shot builds as even counting, nor do i view it as I was outplayed. In fact, I have 0 respect for anyone that uses them. This is a prime example of letting a build carry a crappy player. I've seen this build alot the last few days. All these crappy players do is go for the one shot, and if it fails, they are totally clueless on how to survive. Most try to run away (to try again i suppose), and they are easy kills. Some try to kite around like a chicken with their heads cut off while their kill shot is on cd. Those are the funniest folks to watch. That this play style exists is a testament to human behavior. There is a subset of folks that cannot compete in a 'balanced' match. They turn to cheese builds with low risk/high reward (one shot/run away), some turn to using exploits, etc. I feel sorry for them to be honest. But hey, if its the only way they can compete, more power to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @Dawdler.8521 said: > > @Sasajoe.1509 said: > > Now that i think about sets stats balance i guess the devs had the *somewhat* right idea of 3 stats sets/items, but they should have been only as: > > > > *2 offensive stats & 1 defensive stat* per item / set > > > > OR > > > > *1 offensive stat & 2 defensive stats per iem/set* > > > > Also HoT with the 4 stat item sets pretty much kitten everything up. > > > > Somewhere something went terribly wrong in ANet hq xD & the consequences are that everyone now is much more uset. > You know dire fit into the second category right... so it would still have been messed up lol. Yeah but they should lower its condi dmg stat in this case, because power builds need also crit & ferocity while condy even without expertise is still pretty damn good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @mulzi.8273 said: > I don't consider any kills from these one-shot builds as even counting, nor do i view it as I was outplayed. In fact, I have 0 respect for anyone that uses them. This is a prime example of letting a build carry a crappy player. I've seen this build alot the last few days. All these crappy players do is go for the one shot, and if it fails, they are totally clueless on how to survive. Most try to run away (to try again i suppose), and they are easy kills. Some try to kite around like a chicken with their heads cut off while their kill shot is on cd. Those are the funniest folks to watch. > > That this play style exists is a testament to human behavior. There is a subset of folks that cannot compete in a 'balanced' match. They turn to cheese builds with low risk/high reward (one shot/run away), some turn to using exploits, etc. I feel sorry for them to be honest. But hey, if its the only way they can compete, more power to them. > & that is exactly why Anet needs to balance the hell out of this game if they want to keep tgeir customers (happy-content). I feel the same way as you. Every day i meet such cheezy builds in wvw & most of the times i win but whe i lose i get bitter not because i lost, but because i know that guy is inferior in skill & just exploits a broken mechanic. Yesterday on my engi (i only solo roam as every class) i fought a condi daredevil & a soulbeast 1v2, the soulbeast was full zerker long bow xD while the DD was dire/trailblazer shortbow... (the 2 extremes we speak about) The several times we fought i always managed to kille the soul beast but the dd was too slippery & tanky When i finally managed to almost down him after i killed the sb, he just ran for the hills like there was no tomorrow xD. Can you immagine how bad these guys must be & they obviously knew it & roamed in a party because of that xD hhahah such pitty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takatsu.9416 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 What you're talking about here is a result of power creep from the expansion elite specs especially. though core also had one shot, I actually remember it being better for roaming years ago. I don't think they can just reduce damage because anets real problem is trying to blur the gaps between the three game modes PvP wvw and pve. If you nerf damage across the board pve will suffer. And they seem reluctant to just make changes for PvP and wvw. Other thing is the elite specs get more powerful or versatile. Their design for tempest or scourge to be a support spec basically backfired and somehow they are the ones with most damage. Their design for versatility for the whole game is not at all possible to balance. There are all sorts of complicated entangled problems for the whole game when you dive into the subject. It's not just a matter of simply removing one shot builds. One shot doesn't come as a separate build. It is the culmination and enabling of how a player wants to build something with all of these factors. For example use of full zerk glass gear while using all offensive traitlines and sigils and runes. If you nerf base damage then everyone will have no choice in their trait lines and gear in order to deal enough damage. The sustain end of things is also due to specific player choices. What you're talking about is anets design and also removing of player agency. I agree that for example in demo weekend with the deadeye even without glass gear or full design I could still crit 30k shots with one hit and not too much time. That seems to be ill designed. But if someone chooses to fully invest as full glass to do a 30k one shot then that becomes player choice. There is a power creep ongoing. I think the only way to deal with it really is to increase everyone's base health pool stats so it's harder to just one shot. And it also makes sense with pve bc pve content in expansions and endgame gets increasingly more difficult. > @Kyon.9735 said: > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > > > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > > > > > > @Solori.6025 said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @EvilSardine.9635 said: > > > > > > > > > Why is there not much talk about this? Instant kill abilities with no counter-play should not exist in a game. There should be skillful counter-play to everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now, a mesmer can instant down you from stealth and there's absolutely nothing that can be done about it. You don't see it coming as there is no animation or sound warning. We ran a test and my buddy can hit my warrior with 1400 toughness for 24k damage instantly with no animation from stealth. Auto endure pain doesn't even kick in on time. Any other class with less health dies instantly. Where's the fun in this? Honestly, it's only fun for the mesmer and is that good for the game? I gave it a shot on my mesmer and I can teleport onto 3 people and instantly down them all from stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most huge damage abilities in the game have obvious telegraphs. You can dodge deadeye's big damage because you see and hear an obvious projectile. You can see a killshot from a warrior coming because it's obvious. There's counter play to all of these. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this getting nerfed or what? I don't mind being outplayed in duels and small fights but being instantly downed out of nowhere feels like you're cheated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does that mean you also don't like the ele build and want it nerfed too ? Cause I havent seen you post about it either? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't defend a broken build by setting another broken build as an example. And you can't even roam with that kind of weaver build for God's sake nor does it have any defensive capabilities that Mesmer has. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yes I don't think one shot builds deserve any place in PvP or WvW, even a one trick pony full zerk no defense Weaver gimmick one shot build that only works in zerg blobs > > > > > > > needs to go. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just wondering why I don't see more post from you asking for other broken things to be put in line, yet you targeted mesmer. I wonder why? > > > > > > > > > > > > You're also wrong, > > > > > > People roam with builds capable of doing this type of damage on an ele all the time > > > > > > ( and it makes me wonder if you roam or not because I see people running this often in WvW) > > > > > > > > > > > > for example, even in spvp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > FA ele is able to burst people down, in an environment of controlled variables. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet no one, including you, talks about it. Why? > > > > > > (also imagine the insane damage it does in WvW with the extra buffs) > > > > > > > > > > > > thieves can still backstab you coming out of stealth for 15k > > > > > > > > > > > > Where is your thread about it? > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm honestly curious, why all of a sudden, after this combo has been in game for a little over a year, all of a sudden. > > > > > > People start pointing fingers at it? > > > > > > > > > > > > What class do you play that has led you to be this vindictive? > > > > > > I honestly hope it isn't warrior > > > > > > > > > > What are you saying? I just said **all** similar builds need to go which literally includes all classes in case you don't understand. > > > > > > > > > > Also, you posted a **SWORD/DAGGER WvW** video in which I said it's not even viable for roaming. Now you use a SCEPTER/FOCUS **structured PvP video** as an example wherein only Warrior uses an amulet with Toughness in its meta build. Heck, core FA Ele is even more used and viable than FA Weaver in sPvP. > > > > > > > > > > Are you that scared for one shot builds to be removed that you can't even understand the context of what I said? **One shot builds need to go regardless of class**. > > > > > > > > So...where's your thread about it though? > > > > > > My opinion is already posted here. Do I need to create multiple threads for every single one shot build and whine there about the same thing? > > > > > > Let me ask you instead. Why do you think this Mesmer build and other one shot/multi-hit spike builds (that can one shot in a sense) currently out there shouldn't be touched when its predecessors got nerfed? > > > > > > Heartseeker Spam Thief > > > Static Discharge Engineer > > > Hundred Nades Engineer > > > Fresh Air Ele (Pre-specialization patch) > > > > I havent said one way or the other that I do or do not think they should be nerfed or not. > > But my question on where is your thread is for two reasons > > > > 1. Usually when people want something to be nerfed they crusade for that one build with little to no accurate information while simultaniously forgetting other builds on different classes that can also achieve the same damage. > > > > > > 2. When people want a class to be nerfed they do exactly what you did, post first that " hey class x is too strong and it needs to be nerfed" and " I dont like any class that does X damage" and when the class they want to be nerfed is finally nerfed.. > > > > Those same people disappear. > > > > You say you're against all one shot builds, I simply ask you to prove it, because what people see is a thread about mesmers, and not everyone ( our Anet community devs included) will read post by post, it also serves to determine what type of person you are when you make claims like > > > > > " And yes I don't think one shot builds deserve any place in PvP or WvW, " > > > > Are you legit? > > or are you just another crusader who has trouble so you want things nerfed for you? > > > > > > As for my opinion personally at this point, I don't care either way, I already know of this communities hate for all things mesmer, and a lot of people are not happy until dealing with mesmer is an after thought. > > > > Bunker meta- > > Burst meta- > > Condi meta-( what we have now) > > Boon meta- > > > > They all alternate at some point or another. > > > > So you never actually answered the question as to why the current massive spike builds deserve to be retained while its predecessors got the nerf bat. All I understand from what you say is *you don't really care, you're just salty because Mesmer is targeted* even though I've stated that every similar builds should get the same treatment. > > I have not been deliberately targeting Mesmer alone. It's not like I even agreed to what others have said which are obviously not the reason why this build is overtuned, I only agreed that this specific build needs to be toned down. I even listed previous builds that were essentially the same (press multiple buttons for a massive burst in an extremely short amount of time). If you want something that was obviously the biggest L2P issue regarding one shot builds, it's actually the classic Bull's Charge -> Frenzy -> 100 Blades Warrior where in you only need to dodge Bull's Charge OR use a single stun break and then evade. > > > @takatsu.9416 said: > > LOL why do one shot builds need to go? It doesn't make sense. Who's going to deal with insane sustain roamers then? If one shot builds which is power or condi spam burst builds don't exist, no one can pressure and put down a heavy sustain 1vX roamer that exists even outnumbered and I encounter them all the time. That kind of damage is necessary to balance the other extremity. > > > > If you don't want to face one shot builds, either build for sustain, because there is basically no way for any of us to one shot a tanky warrior or necro or guardian etc. or you can stick to zergs. > > > > Also you get one shot in zergs anyway due to siege and overlapping aoe sometimes. So what's the problem with learning to deal with one shot damage either as a group or solo roaming if you want to roam? > > > > And seriously it's not that hard to deal with one shot classes. As a full glass player of various classes I've been one shot like... twice when I wasn't fully aware of my surroundings. > > > > Wvw is not for the faint hearted. You run into unpredictable situations all the time. Damage dealers, sustain builds, outnumbered situations, zergs that just suddenly run you over, whatever. It happens > > > > That's why it's fun. Especially because you can actually adapt and react to these things most of the time with a little skill and awareness > > > > Side note, I've roamed with Weaver ele on sword dagger and I have tons of evades plus arcane shield, stability, stunbreaks, twist of fate, etc. I play it as I do mesmer, with a lot of active survival skills > > > > > @Kyon.9735 said: > > > > > > Are you that scared for one shot builds to be removed that you can't even understand the context of what I said? **One shot builds need to go regardless of class**. > > > > > > Builds with insane sustain that can still deal decent amount of damage or even have access to burst damage is another set of problem that needs to be addressed. But the previous stance of Anet about massive spike damage that leaves very little time to react has been the same (though they're haven't been fully consistent with it with thieves). > > >As we push to improve balance in both PvE and PvP, a few mechanics in the game will be receiving updates to promote fun and balanced play. In the past, quickness has granted double the action speed normally available to players. In PvP, this speed gives most players almost no chance to react to incoming abilities and allows for massive spike damage in extremely short periods of time. > > Source: https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-March-26-2013 > > Below is from an older State of the Game video regarding 100 'Nades which is highly similar to the current one shot builds. > Karl: People would just run up and, say, swap to grenade kit as they're throwing a grenade barrage and... there's 24,000 damage. > > Source: > > It's not like I'm saying anything new. I've just been saying that Anet should what they have been doing - remove builds that does a massive amount of damage in an extremely short amount of time with little to no time to avoid. > > I've also played FA Weaver and it's damage is ridiculous. It actually has 2 bursts rotations centered around Plasma Beam and Earthen Synergy (which has a stun as well to go with the massive damage). It's less talked because one shot mesmer builds are more prevalent right now but I believe it's the same issue as this one, massive damage in a short amount of time, so it needs the same treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulzi.8273 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @takatsu.9416 said: > What you're talking about here is a result of power creep from the expansion elite specs especially. though core also had one shot, I actually remember it being better for roaming years ago. I don't think they can just reduce damage because anets real problem is trying to blur the gaps between the three game modes PvP wvw and pve. If you nerf damage across the board pve will suffer. And they seem reluctant to just make changes for PvP and wvw. > > Other thing is the elite specs get more powerful or versatile. Their design for tempest or scourge to be a support spec basically backfired and somehow they are the ones with most damage. Their design for versatility for the whole game is not at all possible to balance. > > There are all sorts of complicated entangled problems for the whole game when you dive into the subject. It's not just a matter of simply removing one shot builds. One shot doesn't come as a separate build. It is the culmination and enabling of how a player wants to build something with all of these factors. For example use of full zerk glass gear while using all offensive traitlines and sigils and runes. If you nerf base damage then everyone will have no choice in their trait lines and gear in order to deal enough damage. The sustain end of things is also due to specific player choices. Well, if they increased every classes base health pool by 20k in WvW, to account for the power creep over the years, that should alleviate one-shots, as well as offset some of the ridiculus condi bombs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasajoe.1509 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 > @takatsu.9416 said: > What you're talking about here is a result of power creep from the expansion elite specs especially. though core also had one shot, I actually remember it being better for roaming years ago. I don't think they can just reduce damage because anets real problem is trying to blur the gaps between the three game modes PvP wvw and pve. If you nerf damage across the board pve will suffer. And they seem reluctant to just make changes for PvP and wvw. Then they should separate the skills as it was in GW1 (& it was much much better there also with combining different classes) > > Other thing is the elite specs get more powerful or versatile. Their design for tempest or scourge to be a support spec basically backfired and somehow they are the ones with most damage. Their design for versatility for the whole game is not at all possible to balance. > > There are all sorts of complicated entangled problems for the whole game when you dive into the subject. It's not just a matter of simply removing one shot builds. One shot doesn't come as a separate build. It is the culmination and enabling of how a player wants to build something with all of these factors. For example use of full zerk glass gear while using all offensive traitlines and sigils and runes. If you nerf base damage then everyone will have no choice in their trait lines and gear in order to deal enough damage. The sustain end of things is also due to specific player choices. Well they can simply change the skills that enable that particular combo to happen, that's pretty easy while leaving the rest as it is > > What you're talking about is anets design and also removing of player agency. I agree that for example in demo weekend with the deadeye even without glass gear or full design I could still crit 30k shots with one hit and not too much time. That seems to be ill designed. But if someone chooses to fully invest as full glass to do a 30k one shot then that becomes player choice. > Well then the game balance will stay atrociously bad in this game as it progressively looses popularity... Who would have figured a poorly balanced game won't would not make it to the competitive scene ? xD (thus attracting more new players to play the game) > There is a power creep ongoing. I think the only way to deal with it really is to increase everyone's base health pool stats so it's harder to just one shot. And it also makes sense with pve bc pve content in expansions and endgame gets increasingly more difficult. Again i think they should just separate completely the game modes, you can't have it all in one basket (not because i say so but because its simply impossible) I dont really get whats all the stubbornness about not wanting to separate the skills, when that's clearly what must be done to better the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 14, 2017 Share Posted November 14, 2017 I have a feeling the modes are too intertwined. Probably creates way too much programming to separate the modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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