22k Deaths Judgement After the "fix"

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @babazhook.6805 said:

> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > > And to whoever mentioned gunflame. Again, read through my posts in this thread. I am not ok with ANY skill that is able to pull this off. This is not a thief hate post by me, its me hating on stupid kitten mechanics that allow people to one shot kill people in a single hit due to busted powercreep. Making a single mistake should never, ever result in you going from 100% to downed from a single hit. Never. That is not, and never will be, balanced in any way.

> >

> > I mentioned kill shot, so I think this is aimed at me.

> >

> > First of all, if kill shot has had the same damage since the game's release, it's not really power creep. Fully charged, it has a coefficient of 3.25, and effectively 3.48 when burst mastery is traited. I mentioned it because it's very similar to DJ in terms of coefficient, cast time, range, and build up mechanics. DJ, fully charged, has a coefficient of 2.89 untraited, and 3.38 traited. So as you can see, the numbers are in line with skills introduced with the release of the game.

> >

> > On to the second part of the point I was trying to make. These skills are numerically close to each other, but you end up seeing higher numbers (more often at least) with thief because of the class designs and multipliers available to thief. Since +% damage modifiers are multiplicative in this game, damage values can snowball quickly. Let's look at the traits @"MUDse.7623" pointed out. With all of those modifiers, we go from 3.38 to an effective 5.56, roughly a 64% increase in damage from the ability. On top of that, it crit, so that increase is compounded by his 255% crit damage. This boosts it up to an effective 14.18 multiplier, or almost 4.2 times the original value of the skill. On top of that, he had 4k power at the time, tilting it even further. Now, let's imagine that the devs reduced DJ by 75% so he could only achieve a 10k hit so it couldn't kill anyone flat out, even the lowest health pools. It would have a multiplier of 0.85, which is in auto attack range for a lot of classes on a lot of weapons. I want to emphasize that it would have still been a 10k hit with these bonuses. So the thing is, and the point I'm trying to drive home with all of this, is that to make sure the skill wasn't a 1hko, you'd have to nerf this skill into auto attack territory because of how damage is multiplied in this game, or have to adjust damage formulas and probably all of the skill coefficients in the game as well to compensate.

> >

> > And one last thing, this isn't powercreep on modifiers either, as crit damage used to be able to go much higher before the ferocity change.

> >

> >

>

> I suspect that with a few of the new skills and trait changes for warrior, Gunflame damage can be very significant. I have not tried it norr would I suggest it viable without testing but I can imagine strength/arms/berserker with rifle. Take KICK as a utility. Take signet mastery to build uber high ferocity. Build up ferocity via signet use prior to the shot ,kick at the air (33 percent boost) and take the shot.

>

> For WvW

>

> Out of STR a potential of 33% (Peak performance) 10 percent (stick and move) 21 percent Bersekers power

> Out of Arms Signet mastery for ferocity stacking (Pushing it close to 300 percent all sources) using Burst precision for a guaranteed crit.

>

> Then The Berserker line to get that Gunflame. Always angry 7 percent , blood reaction more ferocity and bloody roar for 10 percent boost in berserk mode.

>

> Then of course the Sigil/food/runes boosts. With Signet of might traited you can even make sure that shot can not be blocked. I might well fool around with such a build in the near future.

 

Could be fun. Keep in mind gunflame is a 2.2 multiplier. I think it was a 2.75 when it first dropped and it was bugged to hit people twice, effectively making it a 5.5 base. They fixed the bug and simultaneously nerfed the damage, so you might not be able to get it as high as you want, or close to kill shot.

 

Edit: Ran some quick numbers. Could be a fun suicide build, but you'd have no survivability.

 

Strength/Discipline/Berserker

 

Gear:All zerk + scholar runes + Butternut squash soup + superior sharpening stone + Sigil of force

 

Burst setup 1: Rifle auto attack ->To the Limit/signet of fury->Bull's Charge->(Dodge roll into target)-> Kill Shot

 

3.25×1.1×1.1×1.3×1.07×1.05×2.34=13.44 effective multiplier

 

Burst setup 2: Bulls Charge->To the Limit/SoF->Arcing Slice->weapon swap -> Dodge into target->Headbutt->stunbreak->killshot

 

3.25×1.1×1.1×1.21×1.3×1.07×1.05×2.34=16.26 effective multiplier (for just kill shot)

 

Burst setup 3: Bulls Charge->To the Limit/SoF->Arcing Slice->weapon swap -> Dodge into target->Headbutt->rampage->gunflame

 

2.2×1.1×1.1×1.21×1.3×1.07×1.07×1.1×1.05×2.43= 13.45

 

Strength/Arms/Discipline

 

Burst 1: signet of rage->signet of might->bolas->signet of fury->random dodge->kill shot

 

3.25×1.1×1.3×1.07×1.1×1.05×2.45=14.07

 

Burst 2: Signet of rage->signet of might->Bulls Charge->SoF->Arcing Slice->weapon swap -> Dodge into target->To the limit->killshot

 

3.25×1.1×1.3×1.21×1.07×1.1×1.05×2.45=17.02

 

Theoretical shots vs 2300 armor @3059 power:

22612

27356

22628

23672

28635

 

 

 

[OriOri.8724]

> @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.

>

> Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.

>

> Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ (using @"MUDse.7623"'s build) would have been 7.03 (including crit damage being additive) instead of the 14.18 representing a 49.6% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now. The shot that started this thread would have been around 11k assuming everything was the same in their build.

 

That would be a huge shot, and for the setup involved I would be ok with that kind of damage coming from it. Still high enough to one shot a full glass cannon build on the low health pool classes, but no one else. I agree that everything else, on all classes, would also have to come down as well though. And sadly I doubt Anet is willing to put in that kind of effort, and I can't justify such a big nerf to thief overall unless other classes will get the same treatment

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.

> >

> > Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.

> >

> > Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ (using @"MUDse.7623"'s build) would have been 7.03 (including crit damage being additive) instead of the 14.18 representing a 49.6% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now. The shot that started this thread would have been around 11k assuming everything was the same in their build.

>

> That would be a huge shot, and for the setup involved I would be ok with that kind of damage coming from it. Still high enough to one shot a full glass cannon build on the low health pool classes, but no one else. I agree that everything else, on all classes, would also have to come down as well though. And sadly I doubt Anet is willing to put in that kind of effort, and I can't justify such a big nerf to thief overall unless other classes will get the same treatment

 

Yeah, that would be a game wide change to damage formulas. If the max direct damage were cut like that, multipliers would probably have to go up 33% across the board as well. Condi damage would probably have to get knocked down by 33% along with it to keep it remotely equal. I'll use qtfy's benchmarks as an example.

 

Condi weaver FGS(overperforming): 38500 -> 25666

Condi Berserker(close-ish to 30k stated goal) : 33750-> 22500

Power Deadeye: 31100->20700

 

Edit: Blocks, boon duration, heals, and pretty much all defensive abilities would have to be adjusted towards lower uptime to prevent unkillable builds from popping up. This is why I tend to not call for nerfs because of outliers like this hit because the current way damage is dealt makes it almost impossible to balance when skills can jump up to 4 times their intended values. The ramp to conditions is pretty much the only thing I'm in favor of a real change, but not their overall damage.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.

> > >

> > > Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.

> > >

> > > Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ (using @"MUDse.7623"'s build) would have been 7.03 (including crit damage being additive) instead of the 14.18 representing a 49.6% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now. The shot that started this thread would have been around 11k assuming everything was the same in their build.

> >

> > That would be a huge shot, and for the setup involved I would be ok with that kind of damage coming from it. Still high enough to one shot a full glass cannon build on the low health pool classes, but no one else. I agree that everything else, on all classes, would also have to come down as well though. And sadly I doubt Anet is willing to put in that kind of effort, and I can't justify such a big nerf to thief overall unless other classes will get the same treatment

>

> Yeah, that would be a game wide change to damage formulas. If the max direct damage were cut like that, multipliers would probably have to go up 33% across the board as well. Condi damage would probably have to get knocked down by 33% along with it to keep it remotely equal. I'll use qtfy's benchmarks as an example.

>

> Condi weaver FGS(overperforming): 38500 -> 25666

> Condi Berserker(close-ish to 30k stated goal) : 33750-> 22500

> Power Deadeye: 31100->20700

 

Now.., if they would split those damage modifiers from PvE, we would be in decent shape. Unfortunately, this would cause a mutiny in PvE land. Raiders couldn't adjust.

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.

> > > >

> > > > Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ (using @"MUDse.7623"'s build) would have been 7.03 (including crit damage being additive) instead of the 14.18 representing a 49.6% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now. The shot that started this thread would have been around 11k assuming everything was the same in their build.

> > >

> > > That would be a huge shot, and for the setup involved I would be ok with that kind of damage coming from it. Still high enough to one shot a full glass cannon build on the low health pool classes, but no one else. I agree that everything else, on all classes, would also have to come down as well though. And sadly I doubt Anet is willing to put in that kind of effort, and I can't justify such a big nerf to thief overall unless other classes will get the same treatment

> >

> > Yeah, that would be a game wide change to damage formulas. If the max direct damage were cut like that, multipliers would probably have to go up 33% across the board as well. Condi damage would probably have to get knocked down by 33% along with it to keep it remotely equal. I'll use qtfy's benchmarks as an example.

> >

> > Condi weaver FGS(overperforming): 38500 -> 25666

> > Condi Berserker(close-ish to 30k stated goal) : 33750-> 22500

> > Power Deadeye: 31100->20700

>

> Now.., if they would split those damage modifiers from PvE, we would be in decent shape. Unfortunately, this would cause a mutiny in PvE land. Raiders couldn't adjust.

 

I am not a programmer and don't know the specifics of their game engine, so I don't know if they'd be able to split the damage formulas per game mode. They might be able to, or they might be able to change the the formulas gamewide and adjust coefficients for Power in PvE upward by a larger value and bring the number of stacks down for condi in PvP.

[babazhook.6805]

I am not sure why people ever thought that the patch would result in a lower DJ shot. The reality is people used to build malice against an alternate target and then switch off in many instances when that target no longer provided a viable shot ( or for the element of surprise).With the Change being that the KNEEL bonus applied to ONLY the mark , the majority of DJ shots will garner the benefit of regular malice and the DJ malice combined.

 

This means if you ARE the mark and the shooter using malificient 7 and is peaked at 7 stacks , his bonus to damage is 105 percent along with 21 percent. In other words if you are not paying attention to all the tells , you had better start and recognize you can not afford for one of those shots to get through. What I do find interesting is the complaint that this allows the target no room for mistakes.

 

Welcome to the life of a thief. In order to do that damage, they have little in the way of health or toughness and do not have all the fail safes other classes have grown used to. If that thief makes a mistake in response to incoming damage, he just as dead just as quick.

[OriOri.8724]

> @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.

> > >

> > > Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.

> > >

> > > Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ (using @"MUDse.7623"'s build) would have been 7.03 (including crit damage being additive) instead of the 14.18 representing a 49.6% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now. The shot that started this thread would have been around 11k assuming everything was the same in their build.

> >

> > That would be a huge shot, and for the setup involved I would be ok with that kind of damage coming from it. Still high enough to one shot a full glass cannon build on the low health pool classes, but no one else. I agree that everything else, on all classes, would also have to come down as well though. And sadly I doubt Anet is willing to put in that kind of effort, and I can't justify such a big nerf to thief overall unless other classes will get the same treatment

>

> Yeah, that would be a game wide change to damage formulas. If the max direct damage were cut like that, multipliers would probably have to go up 33% across the board as well. Condi damage would probably have to get knocked down by 33% along with it to keep it remotely equal. I'll use qtfy's benchmarks as an example.

>

> Condi weaver FGS(overperforming): 38500 -> 25666

> Condi Berserker(close-ish to 30k stated goal) : 33750-> 22500

> Power Deadeye: 31100->20700

>

> Edit: Blocks, boon duration, heals, and pretty much all defensive abilities would have to be adjusted towards lower uptime to prevent unkillable builds from popping up. This is why I tend to not call for nerfs because of outliers like this hit because the current way damage is dealt makes it almost impossible to balance when skills can jump up to 4 times their intended values. The ramp to conditions is pretty much the only thing I'm in favor of a real change, but not their overall damage.

 

I don't have time right now to do the math, but what would the damage have been if every damage modifier except for crit damage was additive? This would essentially be all trait and rune/sigil dmg modifiers.

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.

> > > >

> > > > Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ (using @"MUDse.7623"'s build) would have been 7.03 (including crit damage being additive) instead of the 14.18 representing a 49.6% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now. The shot that started this thread would have been around 11k assuming everything was the same in their build.

> > >

> > > That would be a huge shot, and for the setup involved I would be ok with that kind of damage coming from it. Still high enough to one shot a full glass cannon build on the low health pool classes, but no one else. I agree that everything else, on all classes, would also have to come down as well though. And sadly I doubt Anet is willing to put in that kind of effort, and I can't justify such a big nerf to thief overall unless other classes will get the same treatment

> >

> > Yeah, that would be a game wide change to damage formulas. If the max direct damage were cut like that, multipliers would probably have to go up 33% across the board as well. Condi damage would probably have to get knocked down by 33% along with it to keep it remotely equal. I'll use qtfy's benchmarks as an example.

> >

> > Condi weaver FGS(overperforming): 38500 -> 25666

> > Condi Berserker(close-ish to 30k stated goal) : 33750-> 22500

> > Power Deadeye: 31100->20700

> >

> > Edit: Blocks, boon duration, heals, and pretty much all defensive abilities would have to be adjusted towards lower uptime to prevent unkillable builds from popping up. This is why I tend to not call for nerfs because of outliers like this hit because the current way damage is dealt makes it almost impossible to balance when skills can jump up to 4 times their intended values. The ramp to conditions is pretty much the only thing I'm in favor of a real change, but not their overall damage.

>

> I don't have time right now to do the math, but what would the damage have been if every damage modifier except for crit damage was additive? This would essentially be all trait and rune/sigil dmg modifiers.

 

>crit dmg from twin fangs, + 10% crit dmg from ferocious strikes + 20% crit chance from snipers cover + 21% dmg from malice + 105% dmg modifier through malice on DJ +5% damage from sigil +10% scholar.

So currently twin fangs and ferocious strikes are multiplicative to crit damage.

 

Current:

3.38(1.21×1.05×1.1×2.55×1.07×1.1)=14.177

 

With TF and FS as is

3.38×(1+.21+.05+.1)(2.55×1.07×1.1)=13.797

2.7% reduction

 

With TS and FS changed to be additive

3.38×(1+.21+.05+.1)(2.55+.07+.1)=12.503

11.9% reduction

 

In my correction to mudse, I made a mistake because it was thinking I was an additional 1.55 over base damage, but that neglected the base damage, so this is how I should have written it out first to double check my work

 

3.38(base hit)+3.38(1.55+.21+.1+.07+.1)->

3.38(1+1.55+.21+.1+.07+.1)=10.241

27.8% reduction

 

The incorrect way I typed it in for those interested:

3.38×(1.55+.21+.1+.07+.1)=7.030

50.4% reduction

(learn from my mistake, write out your stuff before typing it in)

 

 

Going back to the DPS numbers, that would put power Deadeye back at 22750 and would probably still require condi to come down by 25% or so.

 

Weaver:28875

Condi berserker:25314

Power Deadeye:22750

 

That's much easier for them to implement now actually as coefficients don't need to be brought up. Sorry for the mistake.

 

Edit: Ideally (imo), optimized power builds could come up to about the 25k mark (~9% more damage after this change) and they would try really hard to keep DoTs just under 30k, so for long fights condi would be about 20% more effective (assuming they increase the ramp time too).

[OriOri.8724]

Interesting results. I do think that ultimately it would be healthier for the game to move all damage modifiers that aren't crit damage to be additive, and tweak them all accordingly. But that would require a lot of other things to be balanced at the same time, and we don't get balance patches that big so it'll likely never happen

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> Interesting results. I do think that ultimately it would be healthier for the game to move all damage modifiers that aren't crit damage to be additive, and tweak them all accordingly. But that would require a lot of other things to be balanced at the same time, and we don't get balance patches that big so it'll likely never happen

 

Yeah. It's pretty hard to balance skills when there's so much variation depending on build, which is why I try to defend some skills so they aren't nerfed to uselessness for the non-optimized player. Glad to have the discussion though to highlight why a skill can be generally balanced but sometimes still hit so hard in certain cases.

[Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046]

> @Tyaen.5148 said:

> If you are marked, why are you standing there waiting for the damage?

 

bc necromancer

When i'm marked i run.. run off point run behind walls run everywhere until the mark is off me.

oiw out of 1500 range.

 

Now that is genuine gameplay to consider right there. ;)

[Xari.1086]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

 

>

> Thoughts on your reply? Its just an attempt at deflecting from the point I'm trying to make, whether intentional or not. I don't think you were being rude, I more so think that you didn't understand the point I was trying to make. You can argue about setup all you want, about the traits and conditions you need in order to get off that damage from DJ. You can go on and on about how much time you need to build malice, and that you have to mark players etc etc etc. But none of that changes the fact that a setup DJ will one shot most any player in the game except high HP classes that built lots of vitality into their build. THAT is the problem. Not that it requires setup. Not that OP should have reacted to it in some way, but the simple fact that there is a way to buff the damage of DJ to the point where a single hit from it will down any player in the game just due to how much damage is coming in from that single hit.

>

> And to whoever mentioned gunflame. Again, read through my posts in this thread. I am not ok with ANY skill that is able to pull this off. This is not a thief hate post by me, its me hating on stupid kitten mechanics that allow people to one shot kill people in a single hit due to busted powercreep. Making a single mistake should never, ever result in you going from 100% to downed from a single hit. Never. That is not, and never will be, balanced in any way.

 

I second this...

 

Althougt it's a little better than pre-patch when DE could interfer any fight without having to mark you with a giant orange mark above your head telling you to stop what you are doing and only concentrate on this one (or maybe two) hits coming in a few seconds...

 

if people are talking about 1on1 they might be right about how predictable DE is in most cases... BUT this game and especially this gamemode (WVW) is not about 1on1.

[MUDse.7623]

> @Xari.1086 said:

> if people are talking about 1on1 they might be right about how predictable DE is in most cases... BUT this game and especially this gamemode (WVW) is not about 1on1.

 

i do think tho in a group fight most other classes / builds are better than a deadeye. because you can alot easier render a deadeye that is just using DJ useless, than a daredevil or a mirage or whatever class you prefer to fight. its not like any other class you ignore will not kill you. but i get it, its easier to ignore a deadeye if he only uses two hits per minute compared to someone constantly attacking.

[reddie.5861]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> The fix was to make sure only large damage hits Marked targets, the fact that you got hit with the Plethora Of Tells 4 Visual, 2 Audio, the Damage doesn’t even come from stealth, it’s a L2P issue, you had a giant target above your head/Below your feet, a Orange Laser, a Red Trailing projectile, the Pojectile Audio tell, the One Shot one Kill Audio tell and a Revealed Thief... all of which if you post is to be taken seriously and they passively generated that Malice then you would have been Marked for well over 12 secs to receive that damage...

 

not giving a rats ass about whole thing here, but seriously people who say listen to ingame sounds.

i havent used ingame sounds since first mmo i touched.. i have never even heard gw2 combat sounds since the day i bought the game.

i believe theres tons of people like me.

[Pelto.9364]

Most players are mentally teen agers and want big oneshot damage to show off. Anet gives that to them, or Anet devs are similar. Fast cars vs family car type things, guess.

 

It is embarracing to start hiding game with deadeye if deadeye arrives in middle of nice fight. It may take a moment to find out where deadeye is, often DJ laser is the only seen, and no dodges left in the fight.

 

This works other way too: I have called our deadeye players to kill some annoying attackers. Our deadeye need not be the best player but just pug.

 

[xDudisx.5914]

It is easier to get insta killed by a mesmer than a deadeye.

[TwilightSoul.9048]

> @xDudisx.5914 said:

> It is easier to get insta killed by a mesmer than a deadeye.

 

Especially since there are like 2 Deadeyes across all servers or so. (I'm not beeing serious, but there really aren't many deadeyes out there and out of the few there are even less that know what their doing and out of those few that are actually a threat.. well THEN you could still pay attention to when you're marked)

Daredevils bother me a lot more especially when I'm on Ele - they just keep dodging, stealthing and running away, it's so annoying, I wish Ele had access to reveal. But yeah if they're gonna nerf something let it be conditions in WvW please.

[Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2]

SMH at people defending this crap

 

22 k hit in one fucking hit against fucking high armour proffersions. How the fuck is this ok?

 

Who fucking cares that u have to wait 12 seconds? Don't act as if staying in stealth is some great fucking risk. in an open world and reveal bieng limited or either an shitty utility not worth taking. Don't act as if u can easily counter attack a fucking stealth stacking build.

 

People were complaining about pu mesmer, they were complaining about perma trapper build thief. But somehow now that deadeye can stack fucking stealth for ages it's ok cause u didn't dodge a 22 k hit.

 

Always have these defenders try to paint some exagarated scene of those getting hit bieng complete noobs and acting as if not seeing the damn hit is cause they litterally stood there and allowed it to happen. As if thier isn't anybody else in wvw. as if u can't fire death's judgement twice. as if tree round burst isn't an other viable option. As if walls are litterally everywhere in wvw right?

 

But yeah 22 k is obviously ok. I mean u have to waith 12 seconds and clearly it's easy as fuck to catch a non retarded deadeye who makes decent use of his stealth so easily right?

 

Because obviously they're isn't shit like lag, or multiple players,or fucking clutter,or no walls, or builds not as well accustomed to range as others.

 

No obviously the guy is just a retard who did nothing for the 12 seconds wait which is somehow incredibly fucking risky to deatheye besides all the stealth.

 

Obviously this clear exageration of a scenario is always what happens.

 

U can say one thing about A-net having shitty balance which is true but there is also one group of players who condone such skill less nonsense.

This is not just against deadeye. but everytime u will have some retarded shit like scourge mains defending them throwing an gazillion condis and say. well simply don't get hit. What kind of cheap cop out answer is this? is this how u balance? Not getting hit? good job everybody.

 

 

U folk make me fucking sick.

 

good night!!

[Crinn.7864]

Alternatively you could just cast Binding Shadow on the target from stealth, and then immediately cast DJ. The knockdown from BS will apply right around when they would be first starting to react to the DJ, thus preventing them from dodging or blocking.

 

Also you don't need full malice to off somebody. I've been shot for 19k on a paladin's reaper within 8 seconds of being marked. I know it was 8 because I was counting them off in my head from the moment I was marked.

[jaif.3518]

Throwing kitten around in every sentence doesn't make you any more correct.

 

There are a large number of people on these forums who have many, many characters, including Deadeyes. They found that rifles are not that powerful; they are a niche weapon for a certain mood/feel/atmosphere...whatever you want to call it. If you want to roam and get kills, there are better builds. About the only thing I've found rifles to be good at is skirmishing - they punish positioning mistakes very well, kill downs, and poke with enough power to make people react.

 

By all means, try it out. It's certainly possible to pile up some spectacular kills, but most of the time you're marking people who run off into the distance or behind the crowd. It can be a very frustrating weapon.

 

[OriOri.8724]

> @jaif.3518 said:

> Throwing kitten around in every sentence doesn't make you any more correct.

>

> There are a large number of people on these forums who have many, many characters, including Deadeyes. They found that rifles are not that powerful; they are a niche weapon for a certain mood/feel/atmosphere...whatever you want to call it. If you want to roam and get kills, there are better builds. About the only thing I've found rifles to be good at is skirmishing - they punish positioning mistakes very well, kill downs, and poke with enough power to make people react.

>

> By all means, try it out. It's certainly possible to pile up some spectacular kills, but most of the time you're marking people who run off into the distance or behind the crowd. It can be a very frustrating weapon.

>

 

Just because its niche does not make it ok for so much damage to come in a single hit in a competitive game mode.

[jaif.3518]

It takes a half dozen button presses and a dozen seconds and a very cooperative target to get that damage. Most classes, thief included, can do better against an uncooperative target.

[xDudisx.5914]

> @TwilightSoul.9048 said:

> > @xDudisx.5914 said:

> > It is easier to get insta killed by a mesmer than a deadeye.

>

> Especially since there are like 2 Deadeyes across all servers or so. (I'm not beeing serious, but there really aren't many deadeyes out there and out of the few there are even less that know what their doing and out of those few that are actually a threat.. well THEN you could still pay attention to when you're marked)

> Daredevils bother me a lot more especially when I'm on Ele - they just keep dodging, stealthing and running away, it's so annoying, I wish Ele had access to reveal. But yeah if they're gonna nerf something let it be conditions in WvW please.

 

There are very few deadeyes indeed. And the good ones don't sit in a point waiting to snipe.

[Turk.5460]

> @reddie.5861 said:

> > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > The fix was to make sure only large damage hits Marked targets, the fact that you got hit with the Plethora Of Tells 4 Visual, 2 Audio, the Damage doesn’t even come from stealth, it’s a L2P issue, you had a giant target above your head/Below your feet, a Orange Laser, a Red Trailing projectile, the Pojectile Audio tell, the One Shot one Kill Audio tell and a Revealed Thief... all of which if you post is to be taken seriously and they passively generated that Malice then you would have been Marked for well over 12 secs to receive that damage...

>

> not giving a rats kitten about whole thing here, but seriously people who say listen to ingame sounds.

> i havent used ingame sounds since first mmo i touched.. i have never even heard gw2 combat sounds since the day i bought the game.

> i believe theres tons of people like me.

 

This doesn't render the tell null and void. It was your choice to turn off in-game sounds in an action MMO where audio tells are sometimes more important than visual tells. Especially when there are particles and bodies moving around everywhere. I.E. Executioner's Scythe, CttB, DJ, Overload Air, DH putting down traps, the difference between a bound and a Vault, etc...

[choovanski.5462]

with damage like this in game I really can't understand why gunflame was nerfed