About the new fractal

[Bugabuga.9721]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

>

> Fractal dailies used to be 1.5-2 hours or 1 hour with a good static.

>

> Oh wait, you ment the easy mode post HoT fractals which had not been revised in ages and not adjusted to powercreep and elite specs. Yeah I get your confusion.

>

> I bet you wished the 4 necro+1 druid braindead meta would be back too right?

>

> As is, having T4 fractals actually be a bit challenging is fine. If you can't cut it, drop down to T3. If you absolutely want the loot: git gud. This isn't even challenge mode.

 

Initial revision was because people didn't run fractals as much and everybody was doing "roll for swamp". Which was fixed by new "a set of mini fractals, you can pick and chose, here are dailies with bonus rewards". Now we're deteriorating back to "1 hour+ if all new fractals on daily". There are always going to be people who can do it in minimal time, use mesmer to port, etc. Not for pugs though.

 

Ironically, new fractal _is_ ideal for 4 necro + 1 druid (well, 4 scourges and 1 healer soulbeast), so be careful what you wish for ;) It's much easier to manage aoe spam with ranged scourge than on melee class.

If boss has to be harder, it's fine. Just don't add bonus "skippable" mobs that are, well, skippable, just to pad up time.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

> @Rennie.6750 said:

> > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > What I've gathered so far:

> >

> > 1. Some people think it's too hard.

> > 2. Some people thing it's too easy/boring.

> > 3. Some people think it's too long.

> > 4. Some people think it's good length.

> > 5. Some people like the trash skips.

> > 6. Some people hate the trash skips.

> > 7. Many people think it's visually noisy.

> > 8. Some people like the visuals.

> >

> > It's still really soon, I'm interested to see how feedback evolves over time, as it has with previous fractals. I'll of course be watching our metrics for info on average playtime and failure/success rate.

>

> I don't want to sound like I'm nitpicking, but why not looking at the median run time instead of averages? Averages are too prone to be skewed by extremes, rarely reflect the typical experience, and looking at the delta between median and average may even tell you some interesting stuff about the learning curve and who plays what flavour of fractal.

 

We have mean and median in our metrics.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

> @Bugabuga.9721 said:

> > @Evolute.6239 said:

> > Many professions bring steath and smokefields. Any ranger, a thief, or engineer is able to bring stealth and every class has some form of blast finisher really. There are also NPC items you can buy for copper (!) that will give you stealth. Saying it forces raid like compositions is beyond silly and almost makes your entire post ignorable.

> >

> > Fractals are not just and should not devolve into 1 boss 15-minute-finish-your-daily content. That's stupid. Nor should anyone really complain about T4 difficulty when T3-2-1 exist. You can simply go down a difficulty scale and get 3 chests instead of 4 if you're not good enough. Oh no!

> >

>

> Again, this is more of a question of why even add the mob for skipping. Party of 2 eles, warrior and a necro won't be able to stealth unless they buy kits (which have been repeatedly nerfed because hey, only thiefs should stealth for reasonable amount of time). 15 minutes one/two boss or a short journey would be fine though. As you have to rely on random party to work well enough it simply reduces your chances of actually doing it. I mean it's fine to skip it because in off hours nobody will run it. We're back to "these new extra long fractals don't have regular pugs running them". Stable groups will breeze through them anyway and probably busy doing raids.

>

>

 

The argument of "X classes don't have this mechanic so you should make the mechanic useless" isn't a great argument IMO. Stealth isn't the only way to skip mobs, but its a good way, and makes those players skills useful.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > @Bugabuga.9721 said:

> > > @Evolute.6239 said:

> > > Many professions bring steath and smokefields. Any ranger, a thief, or engineer is able to bring stealth and every class has some form of blast finisher really. There are also NPC items you can buy for copper (!) that will give you stealth. Saying it forces raid like compositions is beyond silly and almost makes your entire post ignorable.

> > >

> > > Fractals are not just and should not devolve into 1 boss 15-minute-finish-your-daily content. That's stupid. Nor should anyone really complain about T4 difficulty when T3-2-1 exist. You can simply go down a difficulty scale and get 3 chests instead of 4 if you're not good enough. Oh no!

> > >

> >

> > Again, this is more of a question of why even add the mob for skipping. Party of 2 eles, warrior and a necro won't be able to stealth unless they buy kits (which have been repeatedly nerfed because hey, only thiefs should stealth for reasonable amount of time). 15 minutes one/two boss or a short journey would be fine though. As you have to rely on random party to work well enough it simply reduces your chances of actually doing it. I mean it's fine to skip it because in off hours nobody will run it. We're back to "these new extra long fractals don't have regular pugs running them". Stable groups will breeze through them anyway and probably busy doing raids.

> >

> >

>

> The argument of "X classes don't have this mechanic so you should make the mechanic useless" isn't a great argument IMO. Stealth isn't the only way to skip mobs, but its a good way, and makes those players skills useful.

 

While this is true, I also don't agree with having skippable mobs in fractals. What's the point of them? It makes life harder for new players who either don't know they can be skipped or don't know how to skip mobs effectively, and does nothing but waste time for players that know how to skip mobs.

[Vulf.3098]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> While this is true, I also don't agree with having skippable mobs in fractals. What's the point of them? It makes life harder for new players who either don't know they can be skipped or don't know how to skip mobs effectively, and does nothing but waste time for players that know how to skip mobs.

 

That is a big reason why I absolutely hate some dungeons in this game. Fractals definitely should not have this or at least to the extent dungeons do.

 

 

[Rising Dusk.2408]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> While this is true, I also don't agree with having skippable mobs in fractals. What's the point of them? It makes life harder for new players who either don't know they can be skipped or don't know how to skip mobs effectively, and does nothing but waste time for players that know how to skip mobs.

The mobs actually drop decent loot if you're among the group who prefers to kill everything. Just treat them exactly like the Harpies in the Uncategorized Fractal or the projectile kitten golems in Chaos. People who want to skip will, and people who don't want to skip won't; just coordinate with your group and do what you like. The point of them is to give players options and justify the existence of skills that otherwise see negligible use.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Rennie.6750 said:

> - It's significantly more difficult than 100. It doesn't belong to number 82. There are way too many mechanics happening in a short succession. This is clearly raid tier.

 

No, it's not. It's new and people don't have the needed experience. Every new fractal (or any other instance, really) that's not a complete joke feels "significantly more difficult". Then you learn it and it becomes definitely not that difficult. Oasis is nowhere near the difficulty of Shattered, let alone "raid tier".

[Gambino.2109]

> @"Cuon Alpinus.7645" said:

> > @Gambino.2109 said:

> > Final boss is annoying....

> >

> > Interrupts heals.. resses so if party members go down it's pretty much over within seconds cause of those new annoying fractal avengers and the boss constantly pushing you away from ressing your team mates.

> >

> > Another issue, after you're done killing the adds before the balthazar phase starts.. The moment you get back down to the arena.. and literally mean just landing.. this crazy Priestess smacks you so hard that instan downs you before you even get a chance to react. I had this happen almost every time coming back down from the platform.

>

> If you know it happens every time, why not dodge??

 

Well ya know maybe because I'm in mid landing and don't have access to dodge yet? I mean it took two of us out as we we're landing and couldn't even see where she had her target on.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > @"Mister Asdasd.6194" said:

> > Nothing like missing 1 of the million aoe attacks and get stunlocked until you get downed which punishes you with the spawn of an OP "avenger" tht wont despawn until killed and doing massive damage. Yeah, now even getting downed is punished, i despise the new fractal and it is another one of those that will make me skip fractal day if i see them in daily tier, i cant be bothered fidning random people who can or can not do the fractal withing a reasonable amount of time. I miss the days when we could ahve a balance and not everything was a mix of Dark souls/God of War/bullethell style fractal

>

> You can't get stunlocked, since you have an SAS that is a 5 second cooldown stunbreak. Make sure you bind the SAS or it's going to be much more difficult for you.

 

I think this is part of the problem 99% of all people I know used the SAS with clicking in the UID since it was first introduced in Season 2

 

Problem is at least on my keyboard by default it is on the right from the 0(zero). Usually when you play you left hand is for WASD and 1-7 for everything else I need to let go of the mouse which in a action based MMO you want to instinctively avoid. As an Elementist I can go into distance and with some training it is doable but what melee fighters do I don't know ?

 

I also went from wind trait built to arcane just to have more buffer in the fractal.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> Basically, no every fractal is not going to go in this direction.

I keep hearing that after every new fractal. And yet i see more and more of this stuff every change, not less. You may have specific non-mechanic reasons for every case, but you seem to have them for _every_ case.

And the end result is that i just don't like doing fractal dailies anymore. And it gets worse and worse with every update.

 

 

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > Basically, no every fractal is not going to go in this direction.

> I keep hearing that after every new fractal. And yet i see more and more of this stuff every change, not less. You may have specific non-mechanic reasons for every case, but you seem to have them for _every_ case.

> And the end result is that i just don't like doing fractal dailies anymore. And it gets worse and worse with every update.

>

>

 

Shattered observatory and Twilight Oasis are very different. You could argue they are both too difficult or too complex, but the mechanics are very different. Twilight Oasis has much simpler mechanics in general, there's just more skills and AoEs. SO has tons of different complex mechanics that require more than just spamming an SAS or walking out of an AoE.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> And the end result is that i just don't like doing fractal dailies anymore. And it gets worse and worse with every update.

 

I'm sorry you aren't enjoying the new mechanics. I tend to prefer the current direction, because they are becoming less "stay awake during the dance-a-thon" and more "pay attention to what you're doing". I prefer for my challenging content to, you know, challenge me. T2 (and usually T3) is easy enough these days if the T4 is too much.

[CptAurellian.9537]

Fully agreed. I prefer the newer fractals (or ther eworked ones) over the old boring any day.

[zealex.9410]

And stealth is a welcomed adition. Not every group will do it and thats fine, each to their own.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > Basically, no every fractal is not going to go in this direction.

> > I keep hearing that after every new fractal. And yet i see more and more of this stuff every change, not less. You may have specific non-mechanic reasons for every case, but you seem to have them for _every_ case.

> > And the end result is that i just don't like doing fractal dailies anymore. And it gets worse and worse with every update.

> >

> >

>

> Shattered observatory and Twilight Oasis are very different. You could argue they are both too difficult or too complex, but the mechanics are very different. Twilight Oasis has much simpler mechanics in general, there's just more skills and AoEs. SO has tons of different complex mechanics that require more than just spamming an SAS or walking out of an AoE.

 

I think that some people are only counting how many mechanics there are, and aren't taking into account how complicated each one is to deal with. I have not yet had a chance to play the new fractal due to end of the semester bullcrap at my university, but from what I can gather, there are more skills you have to deal with than ever befor ein a fractal, yet they are all easy enough to deal with. So once you learn them, the fight isn't all that difficult. That's been my understanding based on what I've read about it at any rate

[Feanor.2358]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > > > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > > Basically, no every fractal is not going to go in this direction.

> > > I keep hearing that after every new fractal. And yet i see more and more of this stuff every change, not less. You may have specific non-mechanic reasons for every case, but you seem to have them for _every_ case.

> > > And the end result is that i just don't like doing fractal dailies anymore. And it gets worse and worse with every update.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Shattered observatory and Twilight Oasis are very different. You could argue they are both too difficult or too complex, but the mechanics are very different. Twilight Oasis has much simpler mechanics in general, there's just more skills and AoEs. SO has tons of different complex mechanics that require more than just spamming an SAS or walking out of an AoE.

>

> I think that some people are only counting how many mechanics there are, and aren't taking into account how complicated each one is to deal with. I have not yet had a chance to play the new fractal due to end of the semester bullcrap at my university, but from what I can gather, there are more skills you have to deal with than ever befor ein a fractal, yet they are all easy enough to deal with. So once you learn them, the fight isn't all that difficult. That's been my understanding based on what I've read about it at any rate

 

Yep, pretty much that.

It is only normal that the number of attacks is high. The boss phases through channeling the powers of the human gods and thus has different attacks for every phase. This feels AWESOME. Also the attacks are properly impressive, both visually and mechanically. They aren't hard to deal with, they're just spectacular, imposing. The thing is, people get overwhelmed by their sheer number and (wrongly) conclude the fractal is hard.

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"Lord of the Fire.6870" said:

> > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> > > @"Mister Asdasd.6194" said:

> > > Nothing like missing 1 of the million aoe attacks and get stunlocked until you get downed which punishes you with the spawn of an OP "avenger" tht wont despawn until killed and doing massive damage. Yeah, now even getting downed is punished, i despise the new fractal and it is another one of those that will make me skip fractal day if i see them in daily tier, i cant be bothered fidning random people who can or can not do the fractal withing a reasonable amount of time. I miss the days when we could ahve a balance and not everything was a mix of Dark souls/God of War/bullethell style fractal

> >

> > You can't get stunlocked, since you have an SAS that is a 5 second cooldown stunbreak. Make sure you bind the SAS or it's going to be much more difficult for you.

>

> I think this is part of the problem 99% of all people I know used the SAS with clicking in the UID since it was first introduced in Season 2

>

> Problem is at least on my keyboard by default it is on the right from the 0(zero). Usually when you play you left hand is for WASD and 1-7 for everything else I need to let go of the mouse which in a action based MMO you want to instinctively avoid. As an Elementist I can go into distance and with some training it is doable but what melee fighters do I don't know ?

>

> I also went from wind trait built to arcane just to have more buffer in the fractal.

 

Rebind it to something closer... And remember that it can be a combination of keys instead of a single button press, allowing you to use a key that is already bound to something else. In my own case, I use Shift+F as my Special Action because it requires no special reaching and SAS often needs quick reactions.

[Ahlen.7591]

The balth phase on the final boss probably needs to be tuned down a bit, and overall it could lose about 20% hp and it'd be fine.

 

Difficulty-wise the fractal is probably fine overall, but difficulty:reward ratio compared to other T4's is waaaaaaaaaaaaay off. It didn't help that the fractal berserkers are also a bit overtuned and a bit snowbally.

 

Also classes without consistent sustain are at a pretty massive disadvantage on the last boss.

[zealex.9410]

> @Ahlen.7591 said:

> The balth phase on the final boss probably needs to be tuned down a bit, and overall it could lose about 20% hp and it'd be fine.

>

> Difficulty-wise the fractal is probably fine overall, but difficulty:reward ratio compared to other T4's is waaaaaaaaaaaaay off. It didn't help that the fractal berserkers are also a bit overtuned and a bit snowbally.

>

> Also classes without consistent sustain are at a pretty massive disadvantage on the last boss.

 

Like 98 was wayyyyyy off? Like 99 was wayyyy off? Like 100 was wayyy off? All of them i can pug and clear each under 14min. Somee of them under 10 min even.

[Ahlen.7591]

> @zealex.9410 said:

> > @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > The balth phase on the final boss probably needs to be tuned down a bit, and overall it could lose about 20% hp and it'd be fine.

> >

> > Difficulty-wise the fractal is probably fine overall, but difficulty:reward ratio compared to other T4's is waaaaaaaaaaaaay off. It didn't help that the fractal berserkers are also a bit overtuned and a bit snowbally.

> >

> > Also classes without consistent sustain are at a pretty massive disadvantage on the last boss.

>

> Like 98 was wayyyyyy off? Like 99 was wayyyy off? Like 100 was wayyy off? All of them i can pug and clear each under 14min. Somee of them under 10 min even.

 

I'd love to see you pug 98 or 99 or 100 in 10-14 minutes.

 

And I mean real 100% pug.

 

I don't believe you at all. And yes, they are still waaaayy off in difficulty:reward ratio. I still do them but they are absolutely skewed in comparison to things like Volcano/Uncat/Cliff.

[Linken.6345]

I got my special action in r

[Terminal Gaijin.5426]

For me after reading all the comments what I take away from it is time and puggs. As someone with limited time I like finishing them all in an hour or so. Much longer and I don't have the time. I don't think Twilight oasis is to long but any longer would definitely hit that for me. With that being said I don't like that all the fractals seem to be getting that much longer. I never liked the 40 farm but I did always enjoy the quick molten boss when doing my t4 dailies. It meant I would have some time after t4s to do other things in game.

 

Then the idea of pugs vs preplanned players. I understand this is end game content but I dislike the move towards a more static group. Now no specific classes are required but it is getting much harder for random pug groups to succeed (or to do so in a reasonable amount of time). This is concerning to me as someone who pugs often but doesn't always like the meta culture that has become the corner stone for raids and cms. Sadly it doesn't matter if technically any squad with decent builds (non-meta) can complete it. If the perception is that it is to difficult then people will demand that meta group. Though in the end it is up to the developers, do you want fractals to be for a set squad of players or for pugg groups. I think challenging for puggs and speed running for squads is the good balance we use to have.

 

Edit: Oh and I still agree that the instabilities drastically increase the challenge of the T4 and should be reconsidered before the difficulty of the actual fractal can be considered.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @Ahlen.7591 said:

> I'd love to see you pug 98 or 99 or 100 in 10-14 minutes.

> And I mean real 100% pug.

> I don't believe you at all. And yes, they are still waaaayy off in difficulty:reward ratio. I still do them but they are absolutely skewed in comparison to things like Volcano/Uncat/Cliff.

 

Running 98 in pugs within 10-14 is 0 problem at all. Same goes for 99 and 100 in normal mode. The worst I see in 98 is people not having CC for the final boss. Have a panic button available and if the first CC won't make it range the charr to death. You'll still be under 14 minutes!

The usual 99 + 100 are a joke compared to the CM and I pug both CMs regularly if guildies and buddies are not available.

 

Some advices: Don't join any sort of "T4 Dailies" without any extra requirements. Your lowest standard should be "Pots + Food"! Pots are cheap so is non-top tier bufffood for around 2-3s everybody can afford. **The difference between a group with pots and food is fricking huge compared to a group without.** These things are well-known since months still people refuse to use them due to either not knowing or dismiss because they think it doesn't matter. That attitude is terrible.

 

You should also avoid groups with non-optimal/non-meta composition if your char is a squishy meta-based dps class because you often won't survive this without having a healer unless you are very good at the game. Meta is there for a reason and a power tempest doesn't rly fit well into a random group or a bunch of viper necros that outsustain the bosses.

 

These two hints should help you a lot when pugging but never forget sometimes you get the bad apple and it won't work within a certain pug. Recognize that fast enough and look out for another one!

[aandiarie.7195]

That one special action key not only helps you move away to to things, but it also breaks the break bar. Using food and oil is cool too.

[zealex.9410]

> @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > @zealex.9410 said:

> > > @Ahlen.7591 said:

> > > The balth phase on the final boss probably needs to be tuned down a bit, and overall it could lose about 20% hp and it'd be fine.

> > >

> > > Difficulty-wise the fractal is probably fine overall, but difficulty:reward ratio compared to other T4's is waaaaaaaaaaaaay off. It didn't help that the fractal berserkers are also a bit overtuned and a bit snowbally.

> > >

> > > Also classes without consistent sustain are at a pretty massive disadvantage on the last boss.

> >

> > Like 98 was wayyyyyy off? Like 99 was wayyyy off? Like 100 was wayyy off? All of them i can pug and clear each under 14min. Somee of them under 10 min even.

>

> I'd love to see you pug 98 or 99 or 100 in 10-14 minutes.

>

> And I mean real 100% pug.

>

> I don't believe you at all. And yes, they are still waaaayy off in difficulty:reward ratio. I still do them but they are absolutely skewed in comparison to things like Volcano/Uncat/Cliff.

 

Iv never 5 man premade fractals at most it could have been 4 premades and 1 pug and thats as common as anet droping new raids.

 

Cliff will still take time of you mesmer doesnt skip 70% of it and your group doesnt deal well with the seals. And all of the fractals you bring as examples have been out for year compaired to these ones that have been out for less than 1(minus nightmare idk when that one released)