Daybreak Spoilers

[Ronin.7381]

> @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > @Soruf.4875 said:

> - This is clearly bigger than Joko (not including the dragon issue of course)

 

Well I haven't read up on the raid or done it myself but based on the update weeks ago pertaining to Lornar's Pass and how it seems to imply Menzies and Dhuum (the former to a lesser extent only because one of his weapons was on the BLM) might be behind the scene. We know these two were constantly fighting their adversaries (Menzies v Balthazaar and Dhuum vs Grenth) with Dhuum and Grenth fighting somewhat recently according to Cursed Shore. With the Gods again stepping into the light, albeit briefly, just to state they're leaving for good and that Balth intended to stay - of course I expect Dhuum to take the opportunity from Grenth.

 

However, with that said, that was clearly Joko's voice taunting not only the player but Taimi as well for information so I don't know why people think he's a fake. The thing about Lazarus was, he was acting very "un-Mursaat-like" according to what we had been told or lead to believe from the lore which is why his identity was in question. Joko on the other hand spoke, you could hear that he still did not like the fact the Commander left him back in the Underworld, and even taunting Taimi of Awakening her - that was him. No fake. I believe Joko was freed, as Drax implies, the moment Balthazaar was slain.

[Tamias.7059]

I thought it was an interesting creative decision to, after building him up to be this towering figure (literally - I think the first we see of him is a gigantic statue), have us encounter Joko for the first time in GW2 at his lowest, bound in chains and completely powerless,

 

From the Vehtendi Academy, we know that Joko claims [to have killed Abaddon and claimed his power](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protect_the_Priory_explorer_while_he_studies_the_academy%27s_murals), becoming one of the Six instead of Kormir (it's not clear how he could have then gifted power to mortals a thousand years prior in place of Abaddon, but whatever, I guess consistency isn't his thing). My gut feeling in terms of the direction of the story is that Joko will kill either Kralkatorrik or Aurene (probably Kralkatorrik) himself and absorb their magic (which isn't an ability that humans or former humans are thought to naturally have, but then he does have access to Inquest technology...), and actually achieve the heights of power that his followers believe - something resembling godhood.

[Ronin.7381]

I don't see Joko having any interest in Kralk or Aurene, let alone the Elder Dragons - you know, beyond propaganda. Only because we know Joko and Zhaitan's forces often struggled, granted this was old lore so there's no telling what they may have changed. We've already seen a lot change in these past couple years so I admit, I shouldn't be surprised if that becomes the case. I felt the branded's presence in the final mission was because Aurene herself was in the area and Kralk is so large that it's a matter of "Brand EVERYHING! ALL THE THINGS, YEEEEEEE MY DUDES!" Really hope they keep the character more so self contained with his own arching plot where as this force of destructive of nature over there does his thing.

[Tamias.7059]

> @Ronin.7381 said:

> I don't see Joko having any interest in Kralk or Aurene, let alone the Elder Dragons - you know, beyond propaganda. Only because we know Joko and Zhaitan's forces often struggled, granted this was old lore so there's no telling what they may have changed. We've already seen a lot change in these past couple years so I admit, I shouldn't be surprised if that becomes the case. I felt the branded's presence in the final mission was because Aurene herself was in the area and Kralk is so large that it's a matter of "Brand EVERYHING! ALL THE THINGS, YEEEEEEE MY DUDES!" Really hope they keep the character more so self contained with his own arching plot where as this force of destructive of nature over there does his thing.

 

Now that Kralkatorrik is wrecking his kingdom, I think Joko will develop a strong interest in it. Doubly so if he thinks he can use it to gain as much power as he purports himself to have.

 

I kind of wonder if the brand in Daybreak is coming from Aurene rather than Kralkatorrik - we don't see Kralkatorrik anywhere near the Brandstorms in Amnoon and Istan, but we do see Aurene there on both occasions. Wonder if it's power she just can't control (although it'd be weird that we never saw Glint or Vlast wield that power).

[supa suop.8026]

> @draxynnic.3719 said:

>

> Nenah states that the chains "are beyond the judge's power to break. They exist at Balthazar's will". While it's not explicitly stated, one interpretation is that since Balthazar no longer wills them to be (since he's now dead) the chains would have dissipated on their own and freed Joko to return to Tyria.

 

But does Joko know how to travel through the mists? I assumed that it was Balthazar that brought him there in the first place. It possible that he would take the portal that we used to escape the land of the lost, but I thought that was controlled by the judge.

[maxwelgm.4315]

> @Ronin.7381 said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > > @Soruf.4875 said:

> > - This is clearly bigger than Joko (not including the dragon issue of course)

>

> Well I haven't read up on the raid or done it myself but based on the update weeks ago pertaining to Lornar's Pass and how it seems to imply Menzies and Dhuum (the former to a lesser extent only because one of his weapons was on the BLM) might be behind the scene. We know these two were constantly fighting their adversaries (Menzies v Balthazaar and Dhuum vs Grenth) with Dhuum and Grenth fighting somewhat recently according to Cursed Shore. With the Gods again stepping into the light, albeit briefly, just to state they're leaving for good and that Balth intended to stay - of course I expect Dhuum to take the opportunity from Grenth.

>

> However, with that said, that was clearly Joko's voice taunting not only the player but Taimi as well for information so I don't know why people think he's a fake. The thing about Lazarus was, he was acting very "un-Mursaat-like" according to what we had been told or lead to believe from the lore which is why his identity was in question. Joko on the other hand spoke, you could hear that he still did not like the fact the Commander left him back in the Underworld, and even taunting Taimi of Awakening her - that was him. No fake. I believe Joko was freed, as Drax implies, the moment Balthazaar was slain.

 

Sadly, the raids do touch on the Underworld plot (it's set there even), and, so as to give a non-spoilerish answer, I doubt they will give us anything directly related to Dhuum and/or Grenth given the raid already does (and raids are supposed to not be a gate to main story).

[Arden.7480]

> @"supa suop.8026" said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> >

> > Nenah states that the chains "are beyond the judge's power to break. They exist at Balthazar's will". While it's not explicitly stated, one interpretation is that since Balthazar no longer wills them to be (since he's now dead) the chains would have dissipated on their own and freed Joko to return to Tyria.

>

> But does Joko know how to travel through the mists? I assumed that it was Balthazar that brought him there in the first place. It possible that he would take the portal that we used to escape the land of the lost, but I thought that was controlled by the judge.

 

The Judge is not doing his job... he freed us while he shouldn't... So Joko threatened him or something and the judge opened the gate- easy.

[Windu The Forbidden One.60]

> @UncrushablePigeon.8760 said:

> I don't care how pretty GW2 is or how compelling the story, I'm just not interested anymore in playing Commander Doormat. I detest Braham because Anet, you never give the option to put him in his place no matter how badly he treats the Commander. Like Rytlock said, "Enough."

 

Exactly. It's not so much Braham being a kitten that annoys me, but more the fact we can't respond properly to it. He outright blamed us for Taimi getting kidnapped by Joko, I should've slapped him to Cantha and back for that...

[Arden.7480]

But it was our fault, because we wanted to play with Sly idiots because they wanted freaking stupid coin... Heh, this was clearly our fault.

[Windu The Forbidden One.60]

> @Arden.7480 said:

> But it was our fault, because we wanted to play with Sly idiots because they wanted freaking stupid coin... Heh, this was clearly our thought.

 

Yes freeing the leader of the sunspear rebellion clearly wasn't an important objective....

Taimi did not get captured as a result of a decision we made. Yes we weren't there when she was captured, that doesn't make it our fault. We are fighting a war, we can't be everywhere at once and hold her hand all the time.

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @Ronin.7381 said:

> I just hope we don't actually beat Joko to be honest.

 

Same, this guy brings so much fun,

[EdwinLi.1284]

I have this strong feeling that LW4 storyline may lead us to a Inquest Asura Gate that leads into Cantha.

 

If the Inquest been in Elona for years without anyone knowing about them until now then it is possible they have a Gate that leads into a Inquest Research base in Cantha they may have secretly set up long ago.

[Caro.2730]

Am I the only one who thinks that Mysterious Figure could be Lyssa in disguise? I mean, there are hints that she was helping Balthazar. When we discovered Lazarus was in fact Balthazar and that he had Lyssa's Mirror with him, my mesmer said that Lyssa must have been helping him. But then again why would Lyssa want to kill the commader? Maybe she was in love with Balthazar. Of course, she could do it herself, she's a god after all, but I think she'd be smart enough to be stealthy. She's the patron of mesmers after all. The only thing that bugs me in this theory is why would Lyssa turn bad all of a sudden? Well, Kormir said she mocked her for staying longer on Tyria. Maybe she doesn't care about Tyria anymore.

Also, the main reason I think it's not Joko is because of the cunning intelligence behind it.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @Arden.7480 said:

> > @"supa suop.8026" said:

> > > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > >

> > > Nenah states that the chains "are beyond the judge's power to break. They exist at Balthazar's will". While it's not explicitly stated, one interpretation is that since Balthazar no longer wills them to be (since he's now dead) the chains would have dissipated on their own and freed Joko to return to Tyria.

> >

> > But does Joko know how to travel through the mists? I assumed that it was Balthazar that brought him there in the first place. It possible that he would take the portal that we used to escape the land of the lost, but I thought that was controlled by the judge.

>

> The Judge is not doing his job... he freed us while he shouldn't... So Joko threatened him or something and the judge opened the gate- easy.

 

Actually, the portal isn't controlled by anyone, it's just there and we opened it...however, it's pure speculation on whether or not it closed behind us, or could even be reopened. Remember, we reanimated our dead body through that portal...Joko is a lich and has no body to reanimate, but someone does state that he can control minions from across his kingdom, so there's no telling who he might be controlling now, if it's physically not him. As we know he can't be killed, we'll probably have to imprison him again, only this time there will be no getting out.

 

Yes, the experiments that "Joko" has the Inquest working on is how to bring about the Scarab Plague again, it's pretty blatant if you listen to all the dialogue and add 2 and 2 together. I'm not sure it's entirely possible, but it might be, and if so then one of the future LW episodes will probably deal with that problem(most likely we'll have to prevent the spread of it).

 

Cantha is off the table as long as GW2 is played in China, unless it becomes a US/EU release only, and that will never happen. As for that being a secret Inquest base, long before the Inquest made Fahranor(sp) into a secret base it was Zinn's 3rd location, after Rata Novus but before Rata Arcanum(would have to have been between those two if he died at Rata Arcanum and is buried there).

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @Zaklex.6308 said:

 

> ...but someone does state that he can control minions from across his kingdom, so there's no telling who he might be controlling now, if it's physically not him.

 

That line was something along the lines of 'his words can travel far on others' lips'. In the context of the conversation we'd been having, I think it's a pretty safe bet that all that was meant is that non-Joko entities can issue orders on Joko's behalf, and his Awakened would still be compelled to obey them.

[Arden.7480]

> @"Windu The Forbidden One.6045" said:

> > @Arden.7480 said:

> > But it was our fault, because we wanted to play with Sly idiots because they wanted freaking stupid coin... Heh, this was clearly our thought.

>

> Yes freeing the leader of the sunspear rebellion clearly wasn't an important objective....

> Taimi did not get captured as a result of a decision we made. Yes we weren't there when she was captured, that doesn't make it our fault. We are fighting a war, we can't be everywhere at once and hold her hand all the time.

 

She thought she could manage it- i mean her trip to this Fahranur. But well...

 

Braham was right imo, and this "Joko takes what he wants" made me upset...

[Randulf.7614]

If you click on the mysterious figure and view the portrait, it looks nothing like Joko. So unless Joko somehow has hijacked a new body, we have an extra villain thrown in.

 

Not sure how I felt about the Inquest though. Didn't feel like a natural addition to the story, more 'we haven't used them for a bit, lets shove them in and make it work'. A minor niggle though since the episode in general was the best yet for me.

 

The only other niggle was I wasn't sure why we felt it so urgent we broke away from dealing with Kralk to address a seemingly unrelated Aurene vision.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @Arden.7480 said:

> > @"supa suop.8026" said:

> > > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> > >

> > > Nenah states that the chains "are beyond the judge's power to break. They exist at Balthazar's will". While it's not explicitly stated, one interpretation is that since Balthazar no longer wills them to be (since he's now dead) the chains would have dissipated on their own and freed Joko to return to Tyria.

> >

> > But does Joko know how to travel through the mists? I assumed that it was Balthazar that brought him there in the first place. It possible that he would take the portal that we used to escape the land of the lost, but I thought that was controlled by the judge.

>

> The Judge is not doing his job... he freed us while he shouldn't... So Joko threatened him or something and the judge opened the gate- easy.

 

I wouldn't say that the Judge shouldn't have freed us, actually. It was a plot point in GW1 that Grenth wasn't opposed to resurrection, and there's also an event in GW1 where the PCs are killed and where envoys serving Grenth resurrect them in order to fight someone who the envoys would like to see defeated. So I'd say that it's actually established policy for Grenth's servants to resurrect heroes who can defeat someone whom Grenth considers an enemy.

 

With respect to Joko... it's mentioned in The Departing that Joko's presence is problematic for the Domain of the Lost. As long as Joko didn't try to drag any spirits along with him, the Judge would probably consider it the lesser evil to allow him to return to Tyria once Balthazar's chains broke.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @Paintedawg.3740 said:

> Anet purposely put that "Mysterious Voice" and "Mysterious Figure" in for a reason to show it wasn't Joko, atleast not the physical Joko we know. Anyone else surprised that our character and none of the NPC's mentioned them?

 

The Mysterious Figure certainly isn't Joko, but the voice certainly sounds just like him. And it was the voice that brought our PC to think "Joko is back".

 

The Mysterious Figure is intended to be unknown to the player - that's how they always introduce figures we don't know the name of. Koss enters as "Shadowy Figure", Scarlet was "Mysterious Stranger" until she lowered her hood, so on and so forth.

 

> @Ronin.7381 said:

> Well I haven't read up on the raid or done it myself but based on the update weeks ago pertaining to Lornar's Pass and how it seems to imply Menzies and Dhuum (the former to a lesser extent only because one of his weapons was on the BLM) might be behind the scene. We know these two were constantly fighting their adversaries (Menzies v Balthazaar and Dhuum vs Grenth) with Dhuum and Grenth fighting somewhat recently according to Cursed Shore. With the Gods again stepping into the light, albeit briefly, just to state they're leaving for good and that Balth intended to stay - of course I expect Dhuum to take the opportunity from Grenth.

 

Spoilers for raid:

 

 

The raid revolves around Dhuum trying to usurp the Underworld in Grenth's absence, and Grenth's faithful fighting against him. It takes place in the Ice Wastes (and possibly Hall of Judgement?).

 

It seems from what I've seen that we kill Dhuum as the final boss of the raid, and the Seven Reapers all die as well during the fight. King Frozenwind is the second boss of the raid wing, having been twisted by Dhuum. This leaves Desmina (who acts as a guide through the raid - she is the mysterious spirit we saw in Godslost and we meet her as such as her soulless body has become a horror fighting for Dhuum, we defeat her body and she repossess herself) as the sole individual to rule the Underworld, given her ominous final words.

 

 

> @Tamias.7059 said:

> > @Ronin.7381 said:

> > I don't see Joko having any interest in Kralk or Aurene, let alone the Elder Dragons - you know, beyond propaganda. Only because we know Joko and Zhaitan's forces often struggled, granted this was old lore so there's no telling what they may have changed. We've already seen a lot change in these past couple years so I admit, I shouldn't be surprised if that becomes the case. I felt the branded's presence in the final mission was because Aurene herself was in the area and Kralk is so large that it's a matter of "Brand EVERYHING! ALL THE THINGS, YEEEEEEE MY DUDES!" Really hope they keep the character more so self contained with his own arching plot where as this force of destructive of nature over there does his thing.

>

> Now that Kralkatorrik is wrecking his kingdom, I think Joko will develop a strong interest in it. Doubly so if he thinks he can use it to gain as much power as he purports himself to have.

>

> I kind of wonder if the brand in Daybreak is coming from Aurene rather than Kralkatorrik - we don't see Kralkatorrik anywhere near the Brandstorms in Amnoon and Istan, but we do see Aurene there on both occasions. Wonder if it's power she just can't control (although it'd be weird that we never saw Glint or Vlast wield that power).

 

It's a plot point in the open world that Kralkatorrik no longer needs to be present to cause branded. He's launching Brandstorms and branded meteorites across Elona from his mountain perch. The Kralkatite that is the map material this time around is coming from said branded meteorites, and we can see them in Fahranur spawning Branded Elementals.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

>! So Dhuum _**finally**_ dies! At last! Desmina taking over the Underworld is fitting since she was Grenth's first acolyte. Of course with her being the ruler of the Underworld I don't think there is going to be much keeping Mad King Thorn from making his big return to Tyria once Palawa Joko is dead.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Spoilers for raid:

>

>

The raid revolves around Dhuum trying to usurp the Underworld in Grenth's absence, and Grenth's faithful fighting against him. It takes place in the Ice Wastes (and possibly Hall of Judgement?).

>

> It seems from what I've seen that we kill Dhuum as the final boss of the raid, and the Seven Reapers all die as well during the fight. King Frozenwind is the second boss of the raid wing, having been twisted by Dhuum. This leaves Desmina (who acts as a guide through the raid - she is the mysterious spirit we saw in Godslost and we meet her as such as her soulless body has become a horror fighting for Dhuum, we defeat her body and she repossess herself) as the sole individual to rule the Underworld, given her ominous final words.

 

I wouldn't mind selling my soul if she got to be my ruler... meow.

[Pax.3548]

> @Arden.7480 said:

> BTW Who is that? https://imgur.com/a/z4zKp

 

I think she's the same legendary unnamed npc we see at the last part of the episode before facing scruffy, and somehow I feel she is Lonai (Koss on koss book mentioned he went agains joko alongside lonai but failed, seeing his current state, I would imagine the same happened to Lonai).

 

About the bug investigation.... I think joko is interested in that because he's searching for a way to recreate the scarab plague and use it as a biological weapon to attack Tyria, the plague was so deadly in ancient elona that it would practically serve him Tyria on a silver plate without even going for the invasion route: he would just go in after everyone is dead, make them all awakened and take the land, a win-win situation for him.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

So all that's unaccounted for in the Mists is Menzies, Palawa Joko, Lyssa and Mad King Thorn. In the end Mad King Thorn it seems is going to be the biggest fish in the Underworld what with Grenth having gone with the other Gods going looking for a new place for Humanity. The rise of madness is about to begin!

[Manimarco Devil.1790]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

 

> Spoilers for raid:

>

>

The raid revolves around Dhuum trying to usurp the Underworld in Grenth's absence, and Grenth's faithful fighting against him. It takes place in the Ice Wastes (and possibly Hall of Judgement?).

>

> It seems from what I've seen that we kill Dhuum as the final boss of the raid, and the Seven Reapers all die as well during the fight. King Frozenwind is the second boss of the raid wing, having been twisted by Dhuum. This leaves Desmina (who acts as a guide through the raid - she is the mysterious spirit we saw in Godslost and we meet her as such as her soulless body has become a horror fighting for Dhuum, we defeat her body and she repossess herself) as the sole individual to rule the Underworld, given her ominous final words.

 

 

 

The final cinematic shows Dhuum being reimprisoned, not killed.

 

 

[Ronin.7381]

> @"supa suop.8026" said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 said:

> >

> > Nenah states that the chains "are beyond the judge's power to break. They exist at Balthazar's will". While it's not explicitly stated, one interpretation is that since Balthazar no longer wills them to be (since he's now dead) the chains would have dissipated on their own and freed Joko to return to Tyria.

>

> But does Joko know how to travel through the mists? I assumed that it was Balthazar that brought him there in the first place. It possible that he would take the portal that we used to escape the land of the lost, but I thought that was controlled by the judge.

 

Why else would he be put in a cage if he posed no threat to the underworld. The Judge is more of an Overseer, appointed by Grenth to guide or direct those that wnader. But unlike the player, Joko was imprisoned because he was never some simple mortal.

 

> @EdwinLi.1284 said:

> I have this strong feeling that LW4 storyline may lead us to a Inquest Asura Gate that leads into Cantha.

>

> If the Inquest been in Elona for years without anyone knowing about them until now then it is possible they have a Gate that leads into a Inquest Research base in Cantha they may have secretly set up long ago.

 

I really-really hope that doesn't become a thing. While I do expect to see the Inquest since Asura used the underground caves of the Dwarves/dredge in Guild Wars 1 (which did reach Cantha), I was hoping Cantha would be more self contained. By that I mean, you have a xenophobic emperor who holds the continent hostage and you have the potential to bring the Tengu into the forefront through the Dominion of Winds.

 

Out of all the potential new races they could introduce, they could use the Tengu (Dominion of Winds being their starting place) and their whole story is about going home. You could weave into the Tyria campaign where their level 80 quest at the end of Living World brings them back to the DoW where they come to the conclusion that they either need to leave and find a home in Cantha (Shin Jae Islands) or have acquired enough forces to take back/reclaim their homeland.

 

Cantha then becomes this story of subterfuge, freeing and establishing the Kurzick and Luxons once more while building a Tengu Armada in Cantha - all converges on the Royal Palace to overthrow the empire.

 

 

Sounds all too fantastical, I admit. And will probably end up disappointed, wouldn't be the first time hahaha