Is current developer criticism warranted or are we just demanding too much?

[Ashantara.8731]

> @Jacuzzi.1643 said:

> Is current developer criticism warranted or are we just demanding too much?

 

Actually, many people are demanding _less_, but instead we constantly get stuff added that we did not ask for and that takes away the fun: a dozen different methods of acquiring ascended and legendary gear now (I have lost track and interest), a bombardment with new currencies every few months (soon my wallet will look like a waste dumb, my storage already does), increasingly difficult to navigate maps (we get mounts, yet access to new places is often limited to one way), too many mobs (which reduces your playtime to fighting 95% of the time), and too much pseudo-epic combat missions (at some point you go "Yawn..." instead of "Yay!").

 

[Edit: Then there is the Gem Store development too, of course, but that's a topic of its own.]

 

A MMO is supposed to feel like home, a familiar place of awe and wonders in which you can immerse your mind and get away from reality for a while, _not_ like school where you are either present each day to be able to keep up with the new learning matter or drop out. I know of many people who quit GW2 because of this development, and I am getting sick and tired of it myself (I couldn't even bring myself to finish the latest LW episode, which has been out for six days now).

[Leo G.4501]

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> While I agree 100% with what you're saying, an important question you also implicitly raise is: Why play GW2 is the game has to make concessions and compromises?

>

Wow, with all the talk about free market and competition, you'd figure people would know why they wouldn't ever need to ask this question.

 

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> Gaming time is limited, there's hundreds of games, dozens of which can keep you busy for long stretches of time. Even **iff** "My multiplayer game must be a MMORPG" is a requirement, as you said, games such as WoW or FF14 have larger financial backings. Yes, GW2 does a fair few things different and many of which are interesting, but that was a good reason I came here at release.

>

> 5 years down the line, virtually all bigger underlying problems are still around. The solved one is inventory wars, consume-all, un-IDed items and mass-salvage together have fixed that. And not to cheapen the effort, I always called it **the biggest** problem GW2 has, because it physically damaged players' bodies. And it's a kitten cool thing that it got solved.

>

> That being said, even then the fix is a combination of bandaids, and all the other things are left untreated. 5 years ago, this was a game of insane potential displaying one of the best on-release efforts the MMORPG industry has ever seen. Nowadays it is a game of wasted potential (because let's be honest, it's not going to happen anymore). They haven't even done reworks for the classes! Something you'd expect to happen round about every xpack, one per class, or staggered in-between. Nope. Best we got was that trait rework, and while it was a cool change it mostly changed the flavour of the problem, it didn't even attempt to fix the underlying issues (excessive fake-choices due to trivialized impact, overloaded combat mechanics and systems made worse by an overloaded and overburdened trait system, lack of clarity, lack of purpose).

>

Ok. I feel it's important to acknowledge that it's quite simple to look at problems and demand solutions, and it's even easier to say "be careful what you wish for". The tough thing to consider is, yes there are problems, but are they acceptable flaws? Because when you start messing with stuff, you can screw it up worse. And before you say "then you should think it through and test it a lot!" however that doesn't always work. You may end up with a solution that barely affects anything, is hated and cost lots of manpower to implement in the process...or you could end up with something that changes up a lot of things, is adored and hated and likely will require many more manhours to manage later.

 

You say the trait rework was the best we got while ignoring all the other changes to profession mechanics, skills and so forth not to mention the tweeking of traits and how the overall effectiveness of the traits improved them as choices.

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that no, we don't need class reworks. Some traits could use tweeking, but your issue is change for changes' sake.

 

I feel, drastic alterations to the core game at this point can do more harm than good. Similar to how the whole condi stacking has now caused so many more problems (seriously, they didn't need to make stacking unlimited, they just needed to make multiple condi player's condis stack, like keep bleeding to 25 stacks per player) and now we have to shuffle around power, add boons, improve cleansing, all for that 1 change (technically 2 changes, since some condis couldn't stack intensity back then).

 

Like I mentioned before, criticize the devs, make it harsh too and invite discussion on the subject! But we should all be prepared to face the same level of criticism as well.

 

 

[Droughboi.2945]

I think people are just crybabies. EA is so different from the whole skin issue. EA locked full blown characters and gameplay experiences behind loot box gambling with an abysmally low chance at the characters you wanted. Legit pay to win. Their alternative was to put in 60+ hrs for a single character.

 

GW2 is just skins..... SKINS. I'm sorry, but you having a shiny Griffin is not that important. Oh, That mount is expensive? Don't buy it; or work for it. Hell you can even go halfsies with money and gold. Ultimately It's still a raptor. Now if they added a new mount entirely that was for a ton of gems only, then it'd be an issue, but it's not. You can even trade gold for gems so you don't even have to spend that much cash.

 

EA is just a greedy poop stain of a company. ANet is trying to keep sustainable revenue over the lifetime of its MMO without utterly destroying the game.

 

Don't compare the two. It's just disrespectful.

 

[Cynz.9437]

> @Droughboi.2945 said:

> I think people are just crybabies. EA is so different from the whole skin issue. EA locked full blown characters and gameplay experiences behind loot box gambling with an abysmally low chance at the characters you wanted. Legit pay to win. Their alternative was to put in 60+ hrs for a single character.

>

> GW2 is just skins..... SKINS. I'm sorry, but you having a shiny Griffin is not that important. Oh, That mount is expensive? Don't buy it; or work for it. Hell you can even go halfsies with money and gold. Ultimately It's still a raptor. Now if they added a new mount entirely that was for a ton of gems only, then it'd be an issue, but it's not. You can even trade gold for gems so you don't even have to spend that much cash.

>

> EA is just a greedy poop stain of a company. ANet is trying to keep sustainable revenue over the lifetime of its MMO without utterly destroying the game.

>

> Don't compare the two. It's just disrespectful.

>

 

They nerfed builds from core/HoT (that playeds paid for) so they can sell PoF. This is not just skins, they made pvp/wvw pay2win and i think the critique is more than justified there.

[Droughboi.2945]

> @Cynz.9437 said:

> > @Droughboi.2945 said:

> > I think people are just crybabies. EA is so different from the whole skin issue. EA locked full blown characters and gameplay experiences behind loot box gambling with an abysmally low chance at the characters you wanted. Legit pay to win. Their alternative was to put in 60+ hrs for a single character.

> >

> > GW2 is just skins..... SKINS. I'm sorry, but you having a shiny Griffin is not that important. Oh, That mount is expensive? Don't buy it; or work for it. Hell you can even go halfsies with money and gold. Ultimately It's still a raptor. Now if they added a new mount entirely that was for a ton of gems only, then it'd be an issue, but it's not. You can even trade gold for gems so you don't even have to spend that much cash.

> >

> > EA is just a greedy poop stain of a company. ANet is trying to keep sustainable revenue over the lifetime of its MMO without utterly destroying the game.

> >

> > Don't compare the two. It's just disrespectful.

> >

>

> They nerfed builds from core/HoT (that playeds paid for) so they can sell PoF. This is not just skins, they made pvp/wvw pay2win and i think the critique is more than justified there.

 

Nah. For the first time, I'm donning the knight armour. They Nerf and buff stuff no matter what and people wouldve bought or declined the purchase of the expansion regardless of balance changes. New specs definitely mean things are going to change. It has to in order for them to properly fit. It's just basic game design at that point.

[witcher.3197]

If wanting to have at least a few skins tied to ingame content in a game that's about cosmetic endgame, is "demanding too much", then I don't think we have a bright future ahead of us.

 

It seems as GW2 grows it somehow gets smaller in scope, dropping nearly everything that got people hooked back in the day (dungeons, pvp, wvw, guild content, jumping puzzles for the most part, etc) meanwhile the balance of ingame and gemstore skins are getting worse and worse. This is not fine, and if we play along then we just help Anet go towards a cliff.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Big part of the criticism has been the pricing: EUR/USD 120 for the full mount skin pack and EUR/USD 25 for cherrypicking one from the store. And seeing how the company tries to defend their pricing and release the EUR/USD 25 peacock mount they don't seem to learn nor listen too much to the community.

 

But well. We're 'mounting' dead horses here. I guess they will keep their pricing model for some time to lure everyone in for high prices and over time lower them to maximize profits.

[FOX.3582]

We demand too much of the wrong stuff.

[Lambros Augustus.6594]

I think we always demand too much cause we too passionate about the game. Like too many unfair mechanics in raids and fractals is a fair assessment cause the death metrics at the servers must be thru the roof on that.

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Lambros Augustus.6594" said:

> I think we always demand too much cause we too passionate about the game.

 

I don't think so. [As I stated in my previous comment](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/298468#Comment_298468 "As I stated in my previous comment"), the game is going in the wrong direction. You can be a fan boy/girl about it and don't allow yourself to see the negative developments, or you can be a realist and be honest about it. I prefer the latter.

 

The other day, I watched the interviews the head writer (and one of the two execs) of the show "Enterprise", Brannon Braga, gave in the special features of the blu-ray collection, and he was mercilessly honest about the things that were done wrong during the course of the show -- a lot was due to the pressure of the studio that didn't understand their vision nor cared about it, but instead insisted on old Star Trek clichés being fulfilled, even when it ruined the product, and for some of it he fully blames himself to this day. I believe this kind of honest self-reflection is something ANet is lacking completely, maybe due to not having the necessary distance to their product in order to see the things we criticize are truly existent issues in GW2 and are ruining the product; or maybe because some people responsible for the decisions made are just like those studio bosses, and that is most unfortunate, because, in the end, numbers do _not_ reflect the quality of your product -- your long-time customers' feedback does.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @FOX.3582 said:

> We demand too much of the wrong stuff.

 

Then players need stop demmanding pve stuff, and stop wanting everything free or at extreme low prices, and start to ask for decent pvp and better classes design that arent only based to carry players in pve stuff.

 

Unless its the pvp players that need to stop asking for decent pvp and let the pvp keep being influeced and designed for the pver'rs ...

[Astralporing.1957]

> @Cuddy.6247 said:

> The problem with the price setting on ANet's end started at conception with the gold-gem transfer. There are several reasons why gold sellers are frowned upon, one reason is their impact on the in-game economy, and then ANet went and made themselves their own gold seller with gems.

>

> Now there's a ton of gold in the game. So even if they "double" sales by reducing price, a lot of people will be able to acquire the gold to buy without RMT. It's a huge problem on their end.

You don't understand how the gems<->gold exchange works.

Hint: it doesn't create any gems or gold (it even _removes_ gold from the economy). Anet's not losing on it.

 

 

[yefluke.3168]

They can not please anyone btw, someone will love it or hate it.

The game's price itself for me is quite cheap (and the micro transaction are quite acceptable tho). i'm not expect excellent / top notch quality game for this price at all.

[kurfu.5623]

People being critical of something they care about is a good thing.

 

The time to start worrying is when people no longer care enough to register their concerns, and simply move on to something else.

[SkyFallsInThunder.8257]

Asking to be treated with decency and not like walking wallets is not too much. ANet, like many other companies, ha started to push the microtransacations to see how far they can get. It's sad but it's the reality. People just need to push back hard enough so that the end compromise is bearable. It will still suck, but meh.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @SkyFallsInThunder.8257 said:

> Asking to be treated with decency and not like walking wallets is not too much. ANet, like many other companies, ha started to push the microtransacations to see how far they can get. It's sad but it's the reality. People just need to push back hard enough so that the end compromise is bearable. It will still suck, but meh.

 

I don't see that anything has changed. The cash shop was there before and it's there now. The items in question are purely cosmetic. What's the difference? As far as I can tell, the difference is that there are a lot of players used to paying nothing by converting gold to gems, but it simply isn't feasible to do so when you need thousands of gems to get what you want as opposed to a few hundred. Some of those players will balk at the price, but I expect a lot of them are biting the bullet and buying gems with cash when they aren't normally inclined to do so.

 

If those assumptions are anywhere close to accurate, ANet should have some success selling these skins. I know myself and many of my guild mates have purchased 10 or more of the random skins. I know fewer players who have purchased the 2000 gem skins, but if they're anything like me they're just waiting for one they really love to show up.

[Chadramar.8156]

Throwing all sorts of criticism into one pot and treating it all the same isn't constructive. As for the criticism about the mount lootbox fiasco (and the more under-the-radar account-bound items in BLCs)? Harsh criticism about that is more than deserved. The game industry is unregulated and unchecked in some really crappy ways, and it's becoming less and less about quality products and customer satisfaction and more and more about wringing every bleeding cent out of the p(l)ayers in the name of shareholder value. And far too many people lap it all up, or worse, complain a bit and then lap it all up anyway instead of being willing or able to draw a line somewhere, anywhere.

 

It's undeniable that some really shady and BS business practices have become acceptable and then established to the point of being apparently obligatory (because shareholder value) over the recent years. I'm not saying that Back In The Day there were no bad games, no buggy games, no hackjobs. But you couldn't have pulled the current-day nonsense without a slow decline of standards. Remember the almost proverbial horse armor DLC? It's not always just EA pushing the limits. This has been a slow slippery slope with many companies adding their grease, and we haven't even reached rock bottom yet. Nor will it stop until change is forced. Holding still will never accomplish that.

[blambidy.3216]

As much as people complain there is bad. This game outways the bad and is far greater then what people think. This game is still more fluid to play in PvP. The exploration in this game is still gorgeous. There are just so much in this game people don’t realize that if you go to a diff mmo you will miss gw2 to the fullest and come back. Even if the other mmo is a great one.

 

Right now arenanet has a lot in plate. Just finished pof. And released living world season 4 ep 1. Added raid which I told people it will happen. They asked for dungeon. Well they do not understand arenanet added fractal. Which is a new type of dungeon. And added other things. Pretty soon they will add more in living world season 4. And pretty soon they are gonna add winters day celebration.

 

They gave mounts.

New maps.

New masteries.

New raid.

New fractal.

NEw elites.

New human faces.

Skins.

Elona crafting.

New collections.

 

I think it’s time to applaud arenanet for their great success. And giving the community what we wanted. There are more things what we also could have but that is what another expansion is for.

 

[Zionka.6897]

GW2 is an amazing game, that's why we are playing it. People who expect perfection are drawn to it. Show me one single game out there that's perfect in all things, that couldn't use some improvement in an area, and I'll ask why are you here then? The devs have done such a fantastic job here, that one little mis-step or balance issue sticks out like a sore thumb, and draws a lot of attention to itself. Yes, we are spoiled. They can't cater to every individual's ideas on how things should be. They do the best they can, and I, for one, think they get criticized too much for what we've been given.

[STIHL.2489]

I think the main problem with the game is that **feels like** it has no vision, no direction. It's like, there is whole lot of "Ok lets try this" as opposed to "thi was our intention all along" .. and I hate to say it.. but thats really killing this game.

[Nord.1492]

Arenanet is one of the most talented companys ive ever seen, with less than 300 employees to make such a BIG and complex MMO like gw2 is extremly respectable.

**BUT some of the teams, are not really interested in the game and working counterproductive, they are not doing their work properly as they should, without any direction, thats what i feel.** Thats what the people are angry and mad about. And anet says nothing about it, and their mistakes, what brings more anger.

 

The chief from the marketing team posted some days ago, and asked for help if the team could do things better. Thats a really good decision in the right direction.

 

Have you ever seen the Balance Team asked for help, for some dead classes? How to fix them? Make them better playable? No? Me too.

 

Here are some facts, numbers in Million USD.

# * 2016 - 2015 - 2014 - 2013 - 2012

# * 67,86 - 91,81 - 78,10 - 108,7 - 153,2

 

2017 could be a better year bec. of the addon, like 2015 HoT. Is it enough? Could be, i dont know. Is it scary to lose 50%+ money? Indeed.

They need to wake up and sort some black sheeps out, who dont want to make this game better.

 

[Leo G.4501]

> @STIHL.2489 said:

> I think the main problem with the game is that **feels like** it has no vision, no direction. It's like, there is whole lot of "Ok lets try this" as opposed to "thi was our intention all along" .. and I hate to say it.. but thats really killing this game.

 

Could you give some examples? Just so I can grasp exactly what you mean.

 

Closest I can come to is, in City of Heroes, I guess one could say its "vision" was a super-powered character creator/simulator as you could adapt various concepts to their archetype system and customize look, playstyle, powers, power colors/animations to your liking...and I suppose Blade and Soul is a reaction-based, fighting game-esque MMO whose vision is simulating an online fighting game with complex guard/counter/escape mechanics with tighter focus on 1v1.

 

Is that what you mean?

[Dovienya.6597]

It's a mix.

 

Some complaints are appalling and nonsensical, others carry a fair basis of logical concern.

 

Please do not dismiss all consumer complaints as ingratitude and entitlement. You speak of behavior that can bite everyone's behind, yours is one of them. Listing complaints of all caliber, dripping with hyperbole and offering no context, then polling/trolling whether they are legit is extremely disingenuous.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @STIHL.2489 said:

> > I think the main problem with the game is that **feels like** it has no vision, no direction. It's like, there is whole lot of "Ok lets try this" as opposed to "thi was our intention all along" .. and I hate to say it.. but thats really killing this game.

>

> Could you give some examples? Just so I can grasp exactly what you mean.

>

 

Just to give one example: Exotic Gear. Easy to get, and removes the grind, allows players to just get in and play the game, focusing on cosmetics as opposed to generic MMO style stat grind. Even Legendary Weapons wee just exotic weapon stats. Then they add in Ascended, and then they add in stat swap on Legendary weapons. That did not feel like it was the plan all along, it felt like a reaction to pressure as opposed to staying with their original vision.

 

Dungeons. They have this feel of "Well we tried this" and Fractals feel like "Ok, so Dungeons were a bad idea, lets try this instead" they don't feel like this was the plan all long, they feel like an experiment to see what works and what doesn't, some things are better then others, but even the good ideas, there is this feel that it was more a test or a throwing out of an idea, then visionary building with direction and purpose.

 

Case in point. LS/LW, feels like there is a whole story here, you can see parts unfold from one story to the next, things set up in previous chapters coming to fruition later in the story. It feels like there was always a direction and a vision behind the story.

 

That feeling is not there with a lot of the other things they clunked, cobbled and kludge in.

[Spurnshadow.3678]

When it comes to pvp/wvw, the criticism is completely warranted. We are not demanding too much. We are demanding a certain amount of work to make the modes balanced, and have continued interest. This would still require a fraction of the amount of work that has gone into pve. As it stands now, they do the least amount to keep what dwindling player base there is interested. I mean, 1 new WvW map in 5 years? Common. Think about all the new maps, stories, programming, raids, guild halls, fractals, voice acting, animation, that has gone into pve. Yes, DBL was a mess on release. They knew that. Except for the people that never wanted a new map, all the criticism about HoT was spot on. Eventually, they fixed it by implementing the changes people asked for, and beyond, but lost a lot of players in the process. We want better. Own that. Do better. You're not going to retain players by doing the minimum. Don't be afraid to make a new map cause you might drive people away. Just don't release a disaster. Listen to the community during the beta and be prepared to make changes. A WvW map is just one example. Do more, and do it well, and people will stay and come back.

 

Regarding pve criticism, I think it's just nit picking, but a lot of the criticism that is there can still be helpful. Perhaps it's the perception that there's a lot of nit-picking seems like a lot, but I don't see too much regarding the actual core of the game.